The Buccos

[Pitt_Boss]

The thing with Cruz is that his crummy hitting is an even bigger problem at 1B or RF. Those are positions where you generally have much better hitters, because there is usually more a supply of good hitters than can handle those positions.

SS is one position where you can get away with less offense, but that's usually done for a defensive whiz. Cruz's defense is obviously not that. So, what I am saying is he should also be sent to AAA to learn a new defensive position and see if his hitting can improve. You live with his fielding if he was an offensive force. Or you could live with spotty offense if he played ++ defense. But right now he is offering neither.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

The thing with Cruz is that his crummy hitting is an even bigger problem at 1B or RF. Those are positions where you generally have much better hitters, because there is usually more a supply of good hitters than can handle those positions.

SS is one position where you can get away with less offense, but that's usually done for a defensive whiz. Cruz's defense is obviously not that. So, what I am saying is he should also be sent to AAA to learn a new defensive position and see if his hitting can improve. You live with his fielding if he was an offensive force. Or you could live with spotty offense if he played ++ defense. But right now he is offering neither.

Yeah, he and Davis are kind of in the same situation (I guess you could argue Davis' catching has been better than expected, but it's not like he's Molina back there).

Though I think it's a little different than it was 20ish years ago, when most SS's were absolutely anemic at the plate. Still, it's a good point. And I'm not sure how Suwinski grades out in the field, but not even Willy Mays Hayes could justify that offensive output.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Yeah, he and Davis are kind of in the same situation (I guess you could argue Davis' catching has been better than expected, but it's not like he's Molina back there).

Though I think it's a little different than it was 20ish years ago, when most SS's were absolutely anemic at the plate. Still, it's a good point. And I'm not sure how Suwinski grades out in the field, but not even Willy Mays Hayes could justify that offensive output.

The Pirates are the anti-power team. The historical positions for power, LF, RF, 3B, 1B, DH, then maybe Catcher, CF are ALL black holes for power hitters.

Not only not hitting for power, but not hitting period! And worse than that, Not Even Swinging the BAT!!!

 

[Pittisit4me]

Out of the 27 outs you get in a regular length ballgame, the Pirates average better than 9 of those outs without even putting the ball in play (strikeouts).

 

[HailToPitt725]

Bases loaded TWICE with no runs to show for it?

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Bases loaded TWICE with no runs to show for it?

Watching the highlights now. Cruz is an absolute bonehead, lol.

Edit: I was watching the lowlights.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Sheltie saying they didn't get the big hits. My dude, you barely got any hits.

Skenes is going to milk a multi-year injury at some point and shut it down here, because he'll know better than to risk an actual injury for this clown franchise before he gets to the real MLB money.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I truly believe there is a karma of not trying to win, and well.....it just permeates through every thing they do. But my god, you got to get rid of the guys (coaches) on MLB level and replace them with someone else, anyone.

I'm usually not a big "we need to fire the assistant coaches" kind of guy, but here in Pittsburgh we've had two examples where you just have to do it, and as soon as possible, over the past six months. First Matt Canada needed to go, and now I simply can't imagine how Andy Haines still has a job. The only player that you can make an argument has become a better hitter since he's been here is Hayes, and everyone basically admitted that he had to go work with Jon Nunnally to make that happen.

For which the Pirates, in their infinite wisdom, fired Nunnally. Because you know, you can't make the major league hitting coach look even worse than what he already does.

 

[h2p_5150]

This is what usually happens when you bank 100% on prospects to pan out in your team building strategy. It works about 3 times every 34 years. You should be able to fill a few spots on the diamond with proven veteran signings or trades. And Rowdy Tellez and Cutch don't count.

 

[NCanton Panther]

He seems to be in love with the idea of casually fielding a ball, clutching it a few times, and zinging it 115mph to first base to beat the runner by about six inches. If he moves to right field, you have to figure there will be an adjustment period for him to figure out the last possible second he can wait until before he actually throws home. Have to show that arm off.

Seems a little funny you guys debating what position to jettison Cruz to…makes it sound like his bat is so extremely valuable that you have to keep him in the lineup.

I get it, this is the Pirates so relatively speaking, his bat is better than a number of other options. Unfortunately, in the bigger picture of MLB, his bat unfortunately isn’t that valuable.

 

[jtownknowitall]

Cruz is hitting 239. That’s fantastic on this team.

 

[NCanton Panther]

Cruz is hitting 239. That’s fantastic on this team.

Like I said, it’s all relative.

But seriously, the batting avg is probably way down on the list of negatives regarding Cruz’ offensive stats.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Seems a little funny you guys debating what position to jettison Cruz to…makes it sound like his bat is so extremely valuable that you have to keep him in the lineup.

I get it, this is the Pirates so relatively speaking, his bat is better than a number of other options. Unfortunately, in the bigger picture of MLB, his bat unfortunately isn’t that valuable.

Like a month ago, he was being interviewed after a game while the 892 fans in attendance were chanting "MVP"

As you can see by scrolling up in this thread, Pirates fans aren't exactly grounded in reality.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

Like a month ago, he was being interviewed after a game while the 892 fans in attendance were chanting "MVP"

As you can see by scrolling up in this thread, Pirates fans aren't exactly grounded in reality.

Sports fans in general aren’t exactly grounded in reality. That is why they are referred to and call themselves fanatics.

 

[pittdan77]

Sheltie saying they didn't get the big hits. My dude, you barely got any hits.

Skenes is going to milk a multi-year injury at some point and shut it down here, because he'll know better than to risk an actual injury for this clown franchise before he gets to the real MLB money.

Lower back stiffness would be a good one to roll with.

Guy like Skenes will be one long media stunt in Pittsburgh. Will really only need starts out of him in August when they need to give people a reason to show up. They'll parade the girlfriend around. Maybe she finds the Power of Bowser for a year or two. Probably end up in Houston eventually so he can start his real career.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Lower back stiffness would be a good one to roll with.

Guy like Skenes will be one long media stunt in Pittsburgh. Will really only need starts out of him in August when they need to give people a reason to show up. They'll parade the girlfriend around. Maybe she finds the Power of Bowser for a year or two. Probably end up in Houston eventually so he can start his real career.

Sad, but true. Might be a $300M contract awaiting him if he doesn't blow his arm out so we can finish in last place by only 9 games instead of 14.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Sad, but true. Might be a $300M contract awaiting him if he doesn't blow his arm out so we can finish in last place by only 9 games instead of 14.

So you truly believe that a Pirates SP rotation of Skenes, Jones, Keller, Chandler and Priester as your #5 is going to finish 9 games out of the Central Division lead???

In order for Skenes to get that huge contract, he has to show dominance in MLB and prove he's worth it. Just like Garrett Cole.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

So you truly believe that a Pirates SP rotation of Skenes, Jones, Keller, Chandler and Priester as your #5 is going to finish 9 games out of the Central Division lead???

In order for Skenes to get that huge contract, he has to show dominance in MLB and prove he's worth it. Just like Garrett Cole.

He'll flash it. Doesn't have to show it for a full 4-5 years. Gerrit Cole was actually trending downward here before he signed for big bucks (though I think his first two years in Houston were still reasonable). His last season here was very average due to walks and the long ball.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

So you truly believe that a Pirates SP rotation of Skenes, Jones, Keller, Chandler and Priester as your #5 is going to finish 9 games out of the Central Division lead???

In order for Skenes to get that huge contract, he has to show dominance in MLB and prove he's worth it. Just like Garrett Cole.

You're taking the bait again already?!

Here's a tip: When it comes to the Pittsburgh Pirates, sell on the hype.

I agree that rotation looks good on paper. As have many hypothetical rotations before it. As will many after it.

 

[FreeportPanther]

You're taking the bait again already?!

Here's a tip: When it comes to the Pittsburgh Pirates, sell on the hype.

I agree that rotation looks good on paper. As have many hypothetical rotations before it. As will many after it.

Thanks for the tip.
However, hypotheticals aside, if that rotation shows up here in a year or two, it is hard to imagine the team being 9 games out of first in the Central Division.

But you realize that.

 

[Upg bobcat]

Thanks for the tip.
However, hypotheticals aside, if that rotation shows up here in a year or two, it is hard to imagine the team being 9 games out of first in the Central Division.

But you realize that.

I can imagine it ... I have a picture in my head of Skenes throwing 8 innings of without any earned runs but the opposing team still plates a couple because Cruz can't catch a pop-up. I also have visions of Henry Davis striking out looking 3 times so Skenes gets zero run support. Etc.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I can imagine it ... I have a picture in my head of Skenes throwing 8 innings of without any earned runs but the opposing team still plates a couple because Cruz can't catch a pop-up. I also have visions of Henry Davis striking out looking 3 times so Skenes gets zero run support. Etc.

We're 5-16 in the last 21. If you substituted our starting rotation for the '98 Braves' staff, we'd be... 5-16.

 

[pittdan77]

We're 5-16 in the last 21. If you substituted our starting rotation for the '98 Braves' staff, we'd be... 5-16.

Bats will heat up when it gets warmer but so will everyone's. Guess it's more fun to lose 8-6 or something.

 

[accindc]

I get most fans are pretty apathetic to Pirates thanks to crappy current ownership but still amazed how little fans hold Shelton or Haines responsible. Pens struggle on PP it must be Reirden’s fault. Steelers O sucks it has to be Canada. Players like Cruz, Hayes or Davis struggle, it’s all on them. Seems like no accountability for complete lack of discipline under Shelton or how Haines has no clue how to develop hitters or how passive their approach is as a team when hitting. Just intersecting to me.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I get most fans are pretty apathetic to Pirates thanks to crappy current ownership but still amazed how little fans hold Shelton or Haines responsible. Pens struggle on PP it must be Reirden’s fault. Steelers O sucks it has to be Canada. Players like Cruz, Hayes or Davis struggle, it’s all on them. Seems like no accountability for complete lack of discipline under Shelton or how Haines has no clue how to develop hitters or how passive their approach is as a team when hitting. Just intersecting to me.

I think it would be more like criticizing the Steelers' quarterback coach, which I've not really seen anyone do.

I agree that if we're taking all these pitches, as has been tossed around, then it's a pretty stupid game plan. But for the most part, I think guys can either hit or they can't can go play for the Pirates.

 

[pittdan77]

I get most fans are pretty apathetic to Pirates thanks to crappy current ownership but still amazed how little fans hold Shelton or Haines responsible. Pens struggle on PP it must be Reirden’s fault. Steelers O sucks it has to be Canada. Players like Cruz, Hayes or Davis struggle, it’s all on them. Seems like no accountability for complete lack of discipline under Shelton or how Haines has no clue how to develop hitters or how passive their approach is as a team when hitting. Just intersecting to me.

Canada took the fall because he had no business being an OC of a pro sports team. That's just hiring malpractice by Tomlin. Nobody has complained that the Steelers O-line coach isn't any good. Generally agree that it's been a talent issue. I think we're seeing the same thing, here.

 

[Pittisit4me]

Thanks for the tip.
However, hypotheticals aside, if that rotation shows up here in a year or two, it is hard to imagine the team being 9 games out of first in the Central Division.

But you realize that.

Sorry, but you still need to score to win. This team's batting line up is, simply put, a tragedy.

 

[Pittisit4me]

They are a disgusting heap of garbage. This team has amassed an unbelievable amount of prospects who bomb out at the major league level. It's uncanny how many prospects we get that just die on the vine. Skenes should have done a John Elway, and told the Pirates if they picked him, he would not play for them. Even tho he will be a multi-millionaire, I feel sorry for him or anyone who plays for this ownership. Calling this team a hodgepodge of nothingness, is too complementary.

 

[NCanton Panther]

They are a disgusting heap of garbage. This team has amassed an unbelievable amount of prospects who bomb out at the major league level. It's uncanny how many prospects we get that just die on the vine. Skenes should have done a John Elway, and told the Pirates if they picked him, he would not play for them. Even tho he will be a multi-millionaire, I feel sorry for him or anyone who plays for this ownership. Calling this team a hodgepodge of nothingness, is too complementary.

Everything you said is spot on…except of course for the part about feeling sorry for Paul Skenes. Umh, no, not even close.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

They are a disgusting heap of garbage. This team has amassed an unbelievable amount of prospects who bomb out at the major league level. It's uncanny how many prospects we get that just die on the vine. Skenes should have done a John Elway, and told the Pirates if they picked him, he would not play for them. Even tho he will be a multi-millionaire, I feel sorry for him or anyone who plays for this ownership. Calling this team a hodgepodge of nothingness, is too complementary.

Nailed it. Embarrassing, directionless franchise.

 

[Tucker99]

Agreed! Im completely over this ownership group.

 

[Pittisit4me]

Everything you said is spot on…except of course for the part about feeling sorry for Paul Skenes. Umh, no, not even close.

Yah, I here you. I guess I just meant that he will have to spend some time here in purgatory before he can go where the big money takes him. It might be bothersome for him knowing that no matter how good he is here, they have no shot at winning anything.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Want some more good Pirates news?? Thinking about "the plan".

Small sample size but...
Top hitting prospect Temarr Johnson is batting .183 and a 0.626OPS, Of course he started slow last year and is young for High A.............but its the Pirates.

The Altoona Curve is 5-19 with a current 13 game losing streak. Team batting avg .215. Team OPS ,622 Team ERA 5.19 Team WHIP 1.51 Early but..........its the Pirates.

Greensboro is 14-9, I already mentioned Temarr Johnson, but Lonnie White is hitting a scintillating .205 with a .772 OPS

Bradenton is 6-18. Team batting average? Get this. .180. Team OPS .562

On the flip side, guys like Bubba Chandler and Hunter Barco are pitching well and Indianapolis's team BAA is .282 And the right guys are hitting, Gonzalez is at.373, Bae is at .388, Peguero is at .317. Considering guys in the big club at those positions, I am not sure if the franchise even wants to win.

But I mean, this organization can and will turn everything to shit.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Want some more good Pirates news?? Thinking about "the plan".

Small sample size but...
Top hitting prospect Temarr Johnson is batting .183 and a 0.626OPS, Of course he started slow last year and is young for High A.............but its the Pirates.

The Altoona Curve is 5-19 with a current 13 game losing streak. Team batting avg .215. Team OPS ,622 Team ERA 5.19 Team WHIP 1.51 Early but..........its the Pirates.

Greensboro is 14-9, I already mentioned Temarr Johnson, but Lonnie White is hitting a scintillating .205 with a .772 OPS

Bradenton is 6-18. Team batting average? Get this. .180. Team OPS .562

On the flip side, guys like Bubba Chandler and Hunter Barco are pitching well and Indianapolis's team BAA is .282 And the right guys are hitting, Gonzalez is at.373, Bae is at .388, Peguero is at .317. Considering guys in the big club at those positions, I am not sure if the franchise even wants to win.

But I mean, this organization can and will turn everything to shit.

Why do people keep showing up? I know Nutting has plenty other sources of MLB revenue anyway, but there has to be an attendance figure that would force his hand.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I supported the Ben Cherington hire and defended him when most others on here wouldn’t. He has officially lost me. The entire organization- beginning with him and on down to Shelton and Haines- refuse to adjust their philosophies despite the persistent struggles.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Why do people keep showing up? I know Nutting has plenty other sources of MLB revenue anyway, but there has to be an attendance figure that would force his hand.

I'm not sure there is. Attendance mostly just changes how much money he makes, it doesn't change whether he makes money or loses it.

I mean obviously he likes higher attendance, and he makes more when lots of people come out to the park. And maybe AT&T bailing on broadcasting games has changed the math at a large enough level to make a difference. But even with bad attendance he makes money. Which is why he has no incentive (in his mind) to spend more money just for a chance that he might make more money on the back end.

 

[pittbb80]

The starting pitching on this team is good enough to compete and when you consider Skenes and some of the others in the minors perhaps to win a championship

As many have indicated it’s the position. Players who are awful. There is some younger talent that could be good in time but they stink right now.

Then there’s the failure to land legit mlb players to compliment the young guys and take pressure off them. Tellez blows and clutch was a cheap and sentimental choice but he’s way past being a legit player.

The question is if the young guys develop will Nutting ever add the free agents needed to complete the team. They are not going to become a contender just through the draft and development process.

 

[jtownknowitall]

Canada took the fall because he had no business being an OC of a pro sports team. That's just hiring malpractice by Tomlin. Nobody has complained that the Steelers O-line coach isn't any good. Generally agree that it's been a talent issue. I think we're seeing the same thing, here.

Does Shelton have any business being a manager of a pro sports team? That’s just hiring malpractice by Cherington. Nobody has complained that the Pirates 1st Base Coach isn’t any good.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I'm not sure there is. Attendance mostly just changes how much money he makes, it doesn't change whether he makes money or loses it.

I mean obviously he likes higher attendance, and he makes more when lots of people come out to the park. And maybe AT&T bailing on broadcasting games has changed the math at a large enough level to make a difference. But even with bad attendance he makes money. Which is why he has no incentive (in his mind) to spend more money just for a chance that he might make more money on the back end.

The equity in the ball team is where the huge $$ is.
Just take a look at what he paid for this club, and what it is worth now.
Imagine having an asset like that to borrow against, etc.

This franchise will be in the Nutting family for a LONG time. Cashing in/selling it would have huge tax implications.
Sorry everyone but he's settled in for a long long time.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

The equity in the ball team is where the huge $$ is.
Just take a look at what he paid for this club, and what it is worth now.
Imagine having an asset like that to borrow against, etc.

This franchise will be in the Nutting family for a LONG time. Cashing in/selling it would have huge tax implications.
Sorry everyone but he's settled in for a long long time.

Here's the thing, he's the owner. I get that, he doesn't want to lose money. He doesn't want to be the San Diego Padres who way overreached for salaries in that market. He doesn't want to have to trade Aramis Ramirez for a bucket of balls because of a failed debt to asset ratio. He is never going to allow a $250 million guaranteed contract which the Dodgers have like 6 of.

But...when his big league team starts to contend, allow the GM to add, get out of the bottom quartile of payroll bring up towards the middle for a couple of years. If you then have to trade off pieces and rebuild, then go back down towards the bottom. But he has NEVER allowed the Pirates to creep into that $140-150 million payroll. And very rarely above $100 million.