Utah to the ACC?
- Thread starter RINGGOLD94
- Start date
Before TVs were invented. What stupid logic. Duplicate Arizonas and Utahs were a mistake. No question. Should have taken almost anyone instead:
San Diego State
Oregon State
South Florida
Memphis
The ONLY reason to add those duplicate markets is those four schools only agreed to come as a package. Otherwise, it makes no sense. The league's TV footprint is beyond awful and they added 4 new schools and only got 2 new markets. They are going to pay for that in their next contract.
The Arizona schools are going to be a package wherever they go, something with how the state has them structured. BYU is their own weird thing that's not really like any other school out there, so the B12 adding the flagship school with a great athletic department in a growing state was a no brainer.
The Big 12 made the right move for the short term, which is basically until the B1G goes on another raid in 2030, after those last schools are picked off from the ACC and B12 the rest will be lumped together in some sort of conference.
No 2 state schools are ever a package, politically. People say that but its never the case. If ASU got a B10 invite tomorrow, they wouldn't tell them "not unless you take Arizona also."
Also, your expert analysis that "BYU is their own weird thing that's not really like any other school out there, so the B12 adding the flagship school with a great athletic department in a growing state was a no brainer" is 100% wrong. BYU has incredibly strong TV numbers in Utah. BYU fans watch BYU. Utah fans watch BYU to root against them. You dont add a duplicate market. Its TV 101. The problem was that BYU was already in the league. If they werent, I'd have to believe Utah would have been added and BYU wouldn't have because you dont take both. You go take San Diego State or someone like that.
Washington and Oregon disagree. recent precedent shows you no longer have to take the dead weight.
UCLA didnt have to take Cal but do have to pay them $10 million/year. UNC is leaving without NC St. OU left without OK St. Texas left without TT. There was only 1 case in the last few decades of expansion where the state legislature had any influence and that was when Gov. Warner wouldnt allow UVa to vote for ACC expansion without VT and that was different because it was a team coming in.
It's not 2004! Duplicate markets don't mean anything when the ultimate goal is getting subscribers for a streaming service, you need big state schools like Utah and the Arizona's along with a quasi national school like BYU. The B1G and SEC are going to monopolize the few over the air tv slots available on Saturday's, that means the ACC and B12 will have more games put behind a paywall, when things are behind a paywall numbers of potential subscribers outweighs location.
Washington State and Oregon State were deadweight but neither of the Arizona schools are deadweight for the other. If the B1G or SEC came calling for one of the Arizona schools they'll be one left behind, but for a leftover conference they can force a package deal.
Oh, ok. The Arizona legislature can only force package deals for leftover conferences, not for a P2 conference. Now, I get it. 🤣
1. Cable still matters
2. The bigger the market, the more potential streaming buyers.
The B12 would have sold more streaming subscriptions if they added say San Diego State instead of Utah.
Cable is becoming less relevant every day, why do you think ESPN is starting a streaming service that's ESPN as we know it and not the ESPN+ nonsense.
No one wants San Diego State that's why they've been passed over during every conference expansion.
I didn't say that isnt becoming less relevant. But it still matters.
BYU+San Diego State = more money than BYU+Utah. That is just reality.
I think having a big time rivalry is more important than not having duplicate markets these days. Not sure if I think the Holy War is that rivalry, but I agree with the logic. Definitely heading toward streaming - possibly exclusively.
They could have already had it every other year anyway. Is having the rights to BYU @ Utah every other year more lucrative than the San Diego TV market?
That isn't the only meaningful game Utah will play, though. How many meaningful games will San Diego State play?
And didn't you just say that you didn't need Rutgers to get the NYC market? Well how many people in San Diego are staunch San Diego State fans - 25,000?
San Diego State has been decent with limited resources. The idea that with a new stadium (which is really nice, I was in it) and selling a P4 league, they could be a TCU or a Baylor or a perennially good team isnt far fetched at all. So that grows their fanbase.
How many are staunch supporters? No, not a ton. But they dont have pro football in San Diego anymore. And only 1 pro team in the Padres. The play would be that they could develop quickly into a really good college football town and begin to make noise nationally.
People have said the same about UCF, SMU, etc. I'll believe it when I see it, because there's a big difference is being a frontrunning fan and following for a season or two of success and being an actual fan.
Yeah, I think it's pretty proven that the networks favor great rivalry games. BYU vs Utah is a great rivalry game and now that they are in the same conference, that game will almost certainly be a national broadcast. Taking Utah was a no brainer (with or without already having BYU) They have turned into a Top 15 program and the networks pick up an annual game that will likely yield 3+m viewers (maybe that many just from the Mormons).
My point is SMF is clueless suggesting Utah was a bad addition for the B12. They were a far and away better choice than Stanford or Cal who have almost zero fan engagement or appeal. But, maybe they will now play annually in front of a raucous 25,000 fans. LOL.....
If BYU wasn't in the league, you could argue Utah over Cal or Stanford. Because you already had a massive presence in Utah, its not even a question that Cal or Stanford is preferred by the networks than a 2nd team in the state of Utah. But they didnt want the Big 12 sooo...
I’m a little surprised that this hasn’t gotten more traction. The Big 12 announced their projections for the 2023-24 year this week, and the distribution per school is projected to decline by about $5M to pay for the partial distribution to the four AAC schools. In 2022-23, the original Big 12 schools averaged $44.2M; this year, the four newcomers will each get $18M, and the original ten will get $39.8M.
Can you imagine the headlines if ACC schools were getting $5M less per year than they did the year before? It would be apocalyptic. But this has gone pretty quiet. I suppose this might explain some of Utah’s apparent buyer’s remorse.
apnews.com
Can you imagine the headlines if ACC schools were getting $5M less per year than they did the year before? It would be apocalyptic. But this has gone pretty quiet. I suppose this might explain some of Utah’s apparent buyer’s remorse.
Big 12 will distribute record $470 million, though 10 full-share members getting little less
Big 12 schools will share in a record $470 million in revenue distribution. That figure was revealed Friday when the conference wrapped up its first spring meetings as a 14-team league.
apnews.com
I’m a little surprised that this hasn’t gotten more traction. The Big 12 announced their projections for the 2023-24 year this week, and the distribution per school is projected to decline by about $5M to pay for the partial distribution to the four AAC schools. In 2022-23, the original Big 12 schools averaged $44.2M; this year, the four newcomers will each get $18M, and the original ten will get $39.8M.
Can you imagine the headlines if ACC schools were getting $5M less per year than they did the year before? It would be apocalyptic. But this has gone pretty quiet. I suppose this might explain some of Utah’s apparent buyer’s remorse.
Big 12 will distribute record $470 million, though 10 full-share members getting little less
Big 12 schools will share in a record $470 million in revenue distribution. That figure was revealed Friday when the conference wrapped up its first spring meetings as a 14-team league.
Kinda like the smartest kid on a short bus!
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Diluting revenue is risky. That's why adding, just to add, isn't a great idea. I really hope this isn't the case with the California schools and the ACC.I’m a little surprised that this hasn’t gotten more traction. The Big 12 announced their projections for the 2023-24 year this week, and the distribution per school is projected to decline by about $5M to pay for the partial distribution to the four AAC schools. In 2022-23, the original Big 12 schools averaged $44.2M; this year, the four newcomers will each get $18M, and the original ten will get $39.8M.
Can you imagine the headlines if ACC schools were getting $5M less per year than they did the year before? It would be apocalyptic. But this has gone pretty quiet. I suppose this might explain some of Utah’s apparent buyer’s remorse.
Big 12 will distribute record $470 million, though 10 full-share members getting little less
Big 12 schools will share in a record $470 million in revenue distribution. That figure was revealed Friday when the conference wrapped up its first spring meetings as a 14-team league.
Doesn’t the ACC contract automatically pay the same amount for the new teams? As in, if each school originally received $40 million a year or whatever from ESPN, if another school is added $40 million is added to the conference payout? Also, I don’t think the ESPN contract is any good if the ACC falls below 14 or 15 schools. Not sure though since there is so much bad info out there.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
I don't know. I get lost in all of the nonsense online that isn't true, sometimes. I believe the most recent deal let the California schools in at a reduced rate and has provisions for success in the payout amounts.
I suspect that it will balance out by virtue of the retained revenues that they’re holding back. There’s about $60M that the ACC is holding back from those three schools which will be partially distributed to the other members to ensure that there isn’t dilution, with the rest being put into the success initiative.
The carriage rate stuff is pretty big, too, by adding the two most populous states to the ACCN in-network footprint. Some of the more conservative estimates I’ve seen suggest that simply adding those schools will add about $110-120M to the overall ACCN revenue pool through carriage rates alone - not considering the additional advertising revenue or being able to put games in the late night slot, just the automatic in-network rate bump by adding the states of CA and TX to the footprint. Because ESPN keeps half and the ACC takes the other half, the ACC is probably looking at an increase of around $55-60M a year by adding those three. Considering the ACCN share is currently about $12-13M per school, the new additions more than pay for themselves. And, to be frank, the additional ACCN revenue for ESPN alone (about $55-60M) almost completely offsets the additional $72M that ESPN is giving the ACC from the pro rata expansion.
ESPN and the ACC really made out very well on the expansion, all things considered, because of the unique shared revenue structure of the ACC Network.
It’s a little funky. The ACC’s contract with ESPN is basically two contracts: there’s the base Tier 1 distribution, and the ACC Network revenues.
The Tier 1 distribution is pro rata: basically, ESPN pays the ACC $X multiplied by however many schools are in the conference, except for Notre Dame who has a unique arrangement. When Cal, Stanford, and SMU were added, the pro rata kicked in and increased the ACC’s payment by around $24M per school. SMU is forfeiting all of it, and Cal/Stanford are forfeiting 70% of it. That money - around $50M or so, will be partially distributed to each school equally, and the rest will be put into the success formula, the specifics of which haven’t been released yet.
The ACC Network half is not pro rata. Basically, ESPN takes all of the revenue that the network generates, they take 50%, and the ACC takes 50%. ESPN doesn’t really care what the ACC does with its 50%, but the ACC has historically divided up that 50% equally between all of its members, which works out to around $12-13M per school. From what I’ve seen, Cal, Stanford and SMU will be receiving a full share of this revenue, so the money will be split 18 ways instead of 15. But, considering they will bring in a significant amount of revenue because of being in CA and TX, it will in essence function like a pro rata clause - and, in fact, everyone’s ACCN share might go up a little bit.
Funny on the WVU boards they are still squabbling about their tier 3 rights and think they are making more in the B12. I guess math is harder when using only your fingers and toes.
I see the Tier 3 thing by Big 12 people a lot, not just WVU fans, and it’s bizarre for two reasons:
(1) West Virginia and the other seven non-Texas and Oklahoma schools in the Big 12 packaged their Tier 3 rights together and sold them all to ESPN way back in 2019. As far as I can tell, those rights have already been part of their conference distribution for years now. They get about $5M a year for them. It’s why there’s so much Big 12 stuff on ESPN+, just like there’s ACC stuff on the streaming-only ACCNX. That’s the Tier 3 content, and it’s been packaged together for years.
Big 12 heading online for new Tier 3 media deal with ESPN+ - WV MetroNews
The Big 12 entered a new media-rights arrangement with ESPN. Here's what it means for West Virginia.
wvmetronews.com
And (2) it was reported extensively that the Big 12’s new media contract also includes Tier 3 rights, so all of the reporting about the Big 12’s new contract and the dollar value is also inclusive of Tier 3 rights. There isn’t some pile of mysterious Tier 3 rights money out there.
Big 12 close to $2.28B media deal with ESPN, Fox
The Big 12 is near completion of a six-year media deal extension with ESPN and Fox Sports that is expected to be worth $380 million a year and will take hold starting in 2025.
There are still things that individual schools negotiate - stuff like each school’s individual radio contracts - but again, that’s not unique to the Big 12. Every school in the country has their own radio deal that’s independent from their conference.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Big12 tier 3 rights are the stuff of legend. Imagine if they were actually getting the money they claimed was there?I see the Tier 3 thing by Big 12 people a lot, not just WVU fans, and it’s bizarre for two reasons:
(1) West Virginia and the other seven non-Texas and Oklahoma schools in the Big 12 packaged their Tier 3 rights together and sold them all to ESPN way back in 2019. As far as I can tell, those rights have already been part of their conference distribution for years now. They get about $5M a year for them. It’s why there’s so much Big 12 stuff on ESPN+, just like there’s ACC stuff on the streaming-only ACCNX. That’s the Tier 3 content, and it’s been packaged together for years.
Big 12 heading online for new Tier 3 media deal with ESPN+ - WV MetroNews
The Big 12 entered a new media-rights arrangement with ESPN. Here's what it means for West Virginia.
And (2) it was reported extensively that the Big 12’s new media contract also includes Tier 3 rights, so all of the reporting about the Big 12’s new contract and the dollar value is also inclusive of Tier 3 rights. There isn’t some pile of mysterious Tier 3 rights money out there.
Big 12 close to $2.28B media deal with ESPN, Fox
The Big 12 is near completion of a six-year media deal extension with ESPN and Fox Sports that is expected to be worth $380 million a year and will take hold starting in 2025.www.espn.com
There are still things that individual schools negotiate - stuff like each school’s individual radio contracts - but again, that’s not unique to the Big 12. Every school in the country has their own radio deal that’s independent from their conference.
I see the Tier 3 thing by Big 12 people a lot, not just WVU fans, and it’s bizarre for two reasons:
(1) West Virginia and the other seven non-Texas and Oklahoma schools in the Big 12 packaged their Tier 3 rights together and sold them all to ESPN way back in 2019. As far as I can tell, those rights have already been part of their conference distribution for years now. They get about $5M a year for them. It’s why there’s so much Big 12 stuff on ESPN+, just like there’s ACC stuff on the streaming-only ACCNX. That’s the Tier 3 content, and it’s been packaged together for years.
Big 12 heading online for new Tier 3 media deal with ESPN+ - WV MetroNews
The Big 12 entered a new media-rights arrangement with ESPN. Here's what it means for West Virginia.
And (2) it was reported extensively that the Big 12’s new media contract also includes Tier 3 rights, so all of the reporting about the Big 12’s new contract and the dollar value is also inclusive of Tier 3 rights. There isn’t some pile of mysterious Tier 3 rights money out there.
Big 12 close to $2.28B media deal with ESPN, Fox
The Big 12 is near completion of a six-year media deal extension with ESPN and Fox Sports that is expected to be worth $380 million a year and will take hold starting in 2025.
There are still things that individual schools negotiate - stuff like each school’s individual radio contracts - but again, that’s not unique to the Big 12. Every school in the country has their own radio deal that’s independent from their conference.
This. When you hear Big XII fans talk about Tier 3 gazillions, they are full of shit. Even when they had those rights, they didn't make much. Only Texas, and to a lesser extent, OU did.
I see the Tier 3 thing by Big 12 people a lot, not just WVU fans, and it’s bizarre for two reasons:
(1) West Virginia and the other seven non-Texas and Oklahoma schools in the Big 12 packaged their Tier 3 rights together and sold them all to ESPN way back in 2019. As far as I can tell, those rights have already been part of their conference distribution for years now. They get about $5M a year for them. It’s why there’s so much Big 12 stuff on ESPN+, just like there’s ACC stuff on the streaming-only ACCNX. That’s the Tier 3 content, and it’s been packaged together for years.
Big 12 heading online for new Tier 3 media deal with ESPN+ - WV MetroNews
The Big 12 entered a new media-rights arrangement with ESPN. Here's what it means for West Virginia.
And (2) it was reported extensively that the Big 12’s new media contract also includes Tier 3 rights, so all of the reporting about the Big 12’s new contract and the dollar value is also inclusive of Tier 3 rights. There isn’t some pile of mysterious Tier 3 rights money out there.
Big 12 close to $2.28B media deal with ESPN, Fox
The Big 12 is near completion of a six-year media deal extension with ESPN and Fox Sports that is expected to be worth $380 million a year and will take hold starting in 2025.
There are still things that individual schools negotiate - stuff like each school’s individual radio contracts - but again, that’s not unique to the Big 12. Every school in the country has their own radio deal that’s independent from their conference.
The US should pass a law to revoke the citizenship of any Big 12 fan who talks about Tier 3 revenue like its something they get that nobody else does. We shouldn't be having people that stupid in this country.
Supposedly, an Oregon State fan started the rumor. The goal he had in mind is for the ACC to pick up Utah and for Oregon State to take Utah's spot in the Big 12.
Its really incredible how much traction these rumors get and how they get picked up by national media. The Dude, one idiot fan from WV, played a very large role in the destabilization of the ACC.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
That's pretty revisionist. All that's happened is that a bunch of Big12 guys have run their mouth about the ACC while the Big12 keeps losing its best TV inventory. They mocked the Pac12 until they needed it gone.
The Dude almost single-handedly turned FSU against the ACC. That isnt to say they wouldn't have eventually turned on the ACC anyway, they probably would have but his constant "FSU to Big 12 by Thursday" updates had moronic FSU foaming at the mouth to go play Iowa State and Kansas, strangely.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
No. FSU's nonsense is recent. No way a school that affected by ten year old internet rumors extends the GOR into the 2030's if the Dude turned them.
The Dude, and others of his ilk, had zero influence on anyone except his own followers. They just floated goofy crap and bragged about Tier 3 rights that they had inside info on that never actually existed. He's mostly gone from the internet because of health problems and it doesn't hurt that his credibility is shot.
I think Dude From WV actually passed away. But I’m not sure.
Yeah, he died of Crohn's complications. He actually seemed like a pretty cool guy once you got past the clickbaiting.
Now that I think about it, I believe his death was actually caused by being full of $hit, which I guess is funny in a way.
I dont know how you can say that. ESPN and national media started going off his rumors. And he was solely responsible for getting FSU all hot and bothered about the ACC. He had their fans begging for Big 12 membership. The Dude's FSU to Big 12 rumors was the perfect test case for FSU to see how their fans felt about the ACC. As we found out, thanks to him, they despise the ACC. I'm not going to say this lawsuit wouldn't have happened if not for The Dude but he made possible the ability for the FSU fanboy board of trustees to understand that the fanbase would be very supportive of it.
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