Where's our resident Goaltender guru?

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I'd like to hear his take on Vasilevsky and Murray and the Murray/Fleury debate.

This is going to piss off some people for whatever reason, but what the hell. I think we all agreed that the Tampa goaltender was not the reason why they lost this series. In fact, he was mostly the reason they were in the series.

But.....the goal, the game winning goal, was just vintage Marc Andre Fleury. Vasilevsky plays well enough to win. Again. But then the series on the line, hell Tampa just scored to tie it up and before they could gain any momentum, BOOM. Bad bounce off the boards, Vasilevsky reaches for it and mishandles it, and when he reaches for it, he opens up some room between pads and post and goal.

I just thought about this today, and no one is saying this because really it is no time nor any reason to pile on MAF. But man, that was vintage.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

And as has often been the case with Pittsburgh, his team only scored one goal in the deciding game. That's been part of the Fleury story too.

It is part of the cruel reality of hockey that Vasilevskiy stopped almost everything shot his way for seven games. However, the play that will be most remembered by Tampa fans is the lone bad goal he surrendered.

That's the life of a goaltender.

 

[Swervin27]

I read a post on here today that has vasilevski as an all time great. Love this board.

 

[H2Pittisit]

I'd like to hear his take on Vasilevsky and Murray and the Murray/Fleury debate.

This is going to piss off some people for whatever reason, but what the hell. I think we all agreed that the Tampa goaltender was not the reason why they lost this series. In fact, he was mostly the reason they were in the series.

But.....the goal, the game winning goal, was just vintage Marc Andre Fleury. Vasilevsky plays well enough to win. Again. But then the series on the line, hell Tampa just scored to tie it up and before they could gain any momentum, BOOM. Bad bounce off the boards, Vasilevsky reaches for it and mishandles it, and when he reaches for it, he opens up some room between pads and post and goal.

I just thought about this today, and no one is saying this because really it is no time nor any reason to pile on MAF. But man, that was vintage.

Agreed. No one will ever say it. The media loves Fleury, because he is a great guy and he is. However, Sullivan has made a point of saying multiple times what a calming presence Murray provides. Fleury has always provided hectic play and the team followed. I think Fleury played well the last two playoffs because the Penguins had little to lose and not much was expected going into the playoffs. I have no doubt in my mind he would have folded like a tent this year

 

[pittguy81]

Agreed. No one will ever say it. The media loves Fleury, because he is a great guy and he is. However, Sullivan has made a point of saying multiple times what a calming presence Murray provides. Fleury has always provided hectic play and the team followed. I think Fleury played well the last two playoffs because the Penguins had little to lose and not much was expected going into the playoffs. I have no doubt in my mind he would have folded like a tent this year

MAF has been much calmer in net since Disco Dan left and he got a real technician to coach him. He was outstanding this year before his concussion. In fact it's not a stretch to say there is no way the Pens make the Playoffs without him carrying the water for much of the year.

Yinzer haters are clueless.

 

[steel_curtain]

MAF has been much calmer in net since Disco Dan left and he got a real technician to coach him. He was outstanding this year before his concussion. In fact it's not a stretch to say there is no way the Pens make the Playoffs without him carrying the water for much of the year.

Yinzer haters are clueless.

-Constant choker in the playoffs. MAF is done. We can get a pretty Elite Wing for $6 Million.

 

[andypappas]

-Constant choker in the playoffs. MAF is done. We can get a pretty Elite Wing for $6 Million.

Lay off of Fleury. He played great last year when the Pens were coached by an idiot, Sick and tired of people constantly all over MAF. He played fantastic all year and if it wasn't for the concussion would have proved it in the playoffs.

 

[PhPanther1]

Anybody who thinks MAF will not be on the team come September and probably the #1 goalie....will be very much dissapointed. It would be a HUGE mistake for the organization for them to bank on a 22 tear old to be able to play 60 games + playoffs next year. Rutherford is not that dumb. Look what he did with goalies in Carolina...he's not dumping MAF.

 

[steel_curtain]

Anybody who thinks MAF will not be on the team come September and probably the #1 goalie....will be very much dissapointed. It would be a HUGE mistake for the organization for them to bank on a 22 tear old to be able to play 60 games + playoffs next year. Rutherford is not that dumb. Look what he did with goalies in Carolina...he's not dumping MAF.

-Thank goodness you dont run the organization. Because goaltenders get replaced. Dont think so? The Blackhawks have had 5 goalies in the last 6 years and still won 3 cups.

-Fleury's last deal came with a no movement clause. Meaning he has no say outside of 12 teams. Trading him to build a potential dynasty the next 2-3 years would be the best move going forward. We need 1 Elite winger that can score and finish and 1 more decent defense men on the powerplay to put a beating on teams. Goal tending is not a worry moving forward. You load the team with skill and scoring. We already have Murray

 

[goalieman]

I'd like to hear his take on Vasilevsky and Murray and the Murray/Fleury debate.

This is going to piss off some people for whatever reason, but what the hell. I think we all agreed that the Tampa goaltender was not the reason why they lost this series. In fact, he was mostly the reason they were in the series.

But.....the goal, the game winning goal, was just vintage Marc Andre Fleury. Vasilevsky plays well enough to win. Again. But then the series on the line, hell Tampa just scored to tie it up and before they could gain any momentum, BOOM. Bad bounce off the boards, Vasilevsky reaches for it and mishandles it, and when he reaches for it, he opens up some room between pads and post and goal.

I just thought about this today, and no one is saying this because really it is no time nor any reason to pile on MAF. But man, that was vintage.

I'm not sure who the "resident Goaltender guru" that you speak of is, but I'd like to make some comments ......

1) What a TERRIFIC series with Tampa Bay and a GREAT Game 7 for the Pens !

2) My brief analysis of the goals scored in Game 7 from a goalie standpoint .....

PENS GOAL #1 - Rust takes a shot from the middle of the ice about the top of the circles ..... Vasilevskiy is in good position at the top of the crease and is beaten with a GREAT shot over his glove side ..... it was a near perfect shot which made the save difficult but Vasilevskiy was in good position and you hope he makes the save .... not a terrible goal but I think he would like to have that one back.

LIGHTNING GOAL #1 - Drouin drives down the right wing and at the top of the circle cuts across the middle and all the way into the high, inner part of the left circle where he takes a shot which beats Murray to the far post ..... Murray was in good position when Drouin got to the top of the right circle but as he cut across the ice, instead of shuffling out and over to be in the proper position, he went deep in the crease and too far to his right ..... he was about 2 feet too deep and about 10" too far to the right ...... the shot went to the far post where there was a lot of open net ..... a problem with angles/position and goalie movement.

PENS GOAL #2 - Lovejoy shoots the puck from the right point off the boards behind the net and it comes back toward the near post ...... Vasilevskiy is near the corner of the crease when Lovejoy shoots the puck and moves to the near post in a reverse-VH position on the post which is fine ...... however, Vasilevshiy then makes 2 technical errors that lead to the game winning goal for the Pens .... first he reaches back for the puck and misses it so that it comes into the crease by the near post where Rust shoots it through a small opening between the post and Vasilevskiy's pads ...... the second mistake, and a BIG one, was that Vasilevskiy had his goal stick way out of position ..... it was up in the air and off to his right side ...... if he would have had the stick paddle down in front of him when he reached back for the puck, he could have either controlled the puck or stuffed Rust's shot ...... you can actually see him trying to get the stick down in proper position but it was too late. I think he will look at the film, learn a lot, and be a better goalie for it.

3) Murray/Fleury ..... I'm not exactly sure what will happen but Fleury has been really good the last 2-3 years, even good in the playoffs the last two years and he was maybe the best player on the team earlier this season before Sullivan became the coach and he kept us in game after game ..... as some have said, we may not have made the playoffs this season without MAF ...... the concussion obviously really negatively affected him and the prolonged absence has made him just not very ready for games ...... Murray has been very good and looks to have a bright future but you just never know how much young goalies will progress and peak or even take a step backwards once teams get to know their weaknesses ...... they may try to trade Fleury in the off season but I suspect that he will be back and Fleury and Murray will both play early next season and whoever plays the best will take over as the #1 goalie ..... if Murray plays really well and Fleury becomes the back up, they may try to trade Fleury by the deadline if they can get the right trade ..... some of this may also depend on the development of Jarry at WBS and the upcoming NHL expansion draft..... on the other hand, don't bet against Fleury, he could be #1 next season ...... we will just have to see how it plays out .... a lot of variables at this point in time ..... Murray looks to be very well coached and is very advanced in his technique for his age ...... he looks to have a very bright future .... he has things to work on like getting stronger, glove saves, closing the "6" hole, angles/positioning and goalie movement among other things but he has a great fundamental foundation.

4) A word about goalie equipment ..... the reason goals are harder to score is not the size of the goalie equipment getting bigger, in fact, over the last 10 years or so it has in some ways gotten smaller and the size is now regulated ...... the width of the pads was decreased from 12 to 11 inches .... the length of the pads now can't be longer then 38" and every goalie is now measured as to what the longest length of their pads can be ..... the pads can only go so far above the knees and so shorter players have shorter length of pads ...... the chest protectors have to now fit tight to the chest, the jerseys only so wide ..... the size of the blocker and glove are capped and no bigger ...... pants can't have side pads over a certain size..... stick blades and paddles have not gotten bigger ..... the rules were in place but goalies wore oversized equipment in the past and now they can't because it is now regulated ...... all equipment worn by goalies in games has to be certified by the league before hand ...... most of the equipment that is bigger is so because the goalies in general are getting physically bigger......

It is more difficult to score because the goalies are better these days much more then their equipment size which has not increased for years ..... they are getting much better coaching all along the way and goaltending is becoming more scientific as to best angles/positions, goalie movement on and off their skates (power pushes, butterfly crawls, slides, etc.), new techniques (butterfly, post play with VH, VH-hybrid, reverse-VH techniques, ways to play breakaways, etc.) ....... goalies have gotten so good at playing the puck outside the net, that they are now only allowed to play it in the trapezoid behind the goal line..... the only position penalized because they are too good at something.

JUST MY OPINIONS GUYS AND GALS ......

5) Anyway, I can't wait to hear what the real goaltending guru says ...... and I can't wait for the Stanley Cup Finals to start ..... should be a good one !

 

[andypappas]

-Thank goodness you dont run the organization. Because goaltenders get replaced. Dont think so? The Blackhawks have had 5 goalies in the last 6 years and still won 3 cups.

-Fleury's last deal came with a no movement clause. Meaning he has no say outside of 12 teams. Trading him to build a potential dynasty the next 2-3 years would be the best move going forward. We need 1 Elite winger that can score and finish and 1 more decent defense men on the powerplay to put a beating on teams. Goal tending is not a worry moving forward. You load the team with skill and scoring. We already have Murray

As far as the Hawks are concerned Crawford has been their main goalie for the past 5 years and won 2 of those cups. You make it sound like they were playing musical chairs with their goalies.

If Fleury is as big of a choker as you say, do you think another GM would give the Pens and elite wing or a good puck moving d-man in exchange?

 

[razzaba]

The variable on all of this is a potential expansion draft. Still some unknowns in terms of no trade clauses and how that factors in, but teams can only protect 1 goalie. There is no way the Penguins let either goalie get snatched up for nothing in return, which means Fleury would probably be the one to get traded.

 

[PhPanther1]

Why is it a foregone conclusion that Fleury will be taken by Vegas? How about Ben Bishop/Vasilevskey? Lehtonen and Niemi? Elliott and Allen? Anderson and Gibson? Subban and Rask? Price and Condon?

If you look outside the 3 rivers, you'll see that a LOT of teams have 2 good goalies and depending on what Vegas wants, they may NOT select MAF who would be 33 by the time skates hit the ice in vegas.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

1.) I definitely agree that people are overreacting on the goalie thing. There are lots of quality goaltenders available for the new expansion team to take. The Anaheim situation is particularly interesting because both goaltenders are young and very good and neither has a no-movement cause in his contract.

2.) I also agree that there is absolutely no chance that Pittsburgh would lose risk losing either asset to expansion because that will never happen. When you hear/read reporters speculate otherwise, just know that they have no idea what they're talking about.

3.) Corey Crawford as well entrenched in Chicago starting goaltender. I have not had five goaltenders in the past six years – at least not five starting goalies in the past six years. Niemi won the first cup and Crawford has been around for the other two.

4.) For all the success the Penguins have had, they still have a glaring need for a top four defenseman. They are four wins away from getting away with it but they still desperately need a D.

5.) On Rust's first goal, I put that on the Tampa D - bad line change - more than on the G. I think Vasilevskiy looked up and saw how much speed Rust what's flying up the ice with and how much ice he still had in front of him and expected him to take it. When Rust shot the puck instead, I think that surprised the young Russian netminder.

Also, as you someone else said, the shot was perfectly placed underneath the crossbar and he changed the angle right before he took it.

I don't think Vasilevskiy bares any responsibility for that goal at all.

... The game winning goal on the other hand....

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As far as the goaltenders. I agree with a lot of what has been said. They are just much more athletic and much larger now than they were in the 70s and 80s. That is the single biggest reason why scoring has been such a problem for years now.

However, another factor that does not get discussed often enough in this discussion is that their equipment is also much lighter than it was even 10-15 years ago. If you picked up a pair of goaltender pads back in the 80s or 90s, they would be significantly heavier feeling than they are now. And those pads were much lighter than their predecessors in the 60s and 70s.

If they really want to fix this issue once and for all, the only solution is to make the nets larger or the goaltending pads formfitting - like our soldiers wear. Otherwise, we are just spinning our tires.

 

[TD_istheman]

We do know what will hapoen, MAF will NOT be a Penguin next year, it's hard for his fans to accept that reality. As a matter of fact, he has asked to be traded already, and he sees the writing on the wall. His coach is a fan of Murray, sees him as the future and the better goalie.

 

[billyberoux]

As far as the Hawks are concerned Crawford has been their main goalie for the past 5 years and won 2 of those cups. You make it sound like they were playing musical chairs with their goalies.

If Fleury is as big of a choker as you say, do you think another GM would give the Pens and elite wing or a good puck moving d-man in exchange?

Don't try to confuse the dummies with logic.

 

[goalieman]

1.) I definitely agree that people are overreacting on the goalie thing. There are lots of quality goaltenders available for the new expansion team to take. The Anaheim situation is particularly interesting because both goaltenders are young and very good and neither has a no-movement cause in his contract.

2.) I also agree that there is absolutely no chance that Pittsburgh would lose risk losing either asset to expansion because that will never happen. When you hear/read reporters speculate otherwise, just know that they have no idea what they're talking about.

3.) Corey Crawford as well entrenched in Chicago starting goaltender. I have not had five goaltenders in the past six years – at least not five starting goalies in the past six years. Niemi won the first cup and Crawford has been around for the other two.

4.) For all the success the Penguins have had, they still have a glaring need for a top four defenseman. They are four wins away from getting away with it but they still desperately need a D.

5.) On Rust's first goal, I put that on the Tampa D - bad line change - more than on the G. I think Vasilevskiy looked up and saw how much speed Rust what's flying up the ice with and how much ice he still had in front of him and expected him to take it. When Rust shot the puck instead, I think that surprised the young Russian netminder.

Also, as you someone else said, the shot was perfectly placed underneath the crossbar and he changed the angle right before he took it.

I don't think Vasilevskiy bares any responsibility for that goal at all.

... The game winning goal on the other hand....

Just to be clear on the Pens first goal ...... as I said, it was a great/near perfect shot by Rust which made the save difficult, Vasilevskiy was in good position, and as I said, it was not a bad goal but when you are in good position and have full view of the shot taken from the top of the circle without any screens, etc., the goalie would like to think he has a decent shot to make the save ...... again, I didn't call it a bad goal because it was a near perfectly placed shot and thus a difficult save and sometimes the goalie does all he can and is beaten by a better shot and that may have been the case..... just stating what I think Vasilevskiy was probably thinking about the play ......

Now, if you are correct and Vasilevskiy was surprised by and not ready for the shot, then he does bare responsibility as the goalie should be ready in that situation (where an opponent has the puck on his stick in a dangerous area) for a shot to be taken at anytime and not surprised by it ....

Agree with you that a bad Tampa Bay line change led to the situation that Vasilevskiy faced.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, I was not questioning your analysis. I was simply offering a slightly different perspective to add to the analysis you had already given.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

2.) I also agree that there is absolutely no chance that Pittsburgh would lose risk losing either asset to expansion because that will never happen. When you hear/read reporters speculate otherwise, just know that they have no idea what they're talking about.

Here's the thing though. MAF has a limited no movement clause in his contract. I don't know the specific details of his, but generally those mean that the player submits to the team either a list of teams that he will accept a trade to or conversely a list of teams that he will not accept a trade to. If / when the expansion draft comes along, if MAF is still a Penguin and he refuses a move to Las Vegas then if the same rules are in effect that have been in prior expansion draft the Penguins will be required to protect Fluery. They will also (again, using past drafts as a precedent) likely be limited to only being allowed to protect one goalie. Which means that if the Pens don't want to risk losing one or the other for nothing they will have to do something before the draft comes along or they will have to agree with Las Vegas to give them something else in exchange for a guarantee that they will not pick a goalie.

That doesn't mean they will lose a goalie in the expansion draft, it just sets the timetable for when they will be required to do something to ensure that they do not.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I get what you're saying but that assumes that Pittsburgh won't trade, say Scott Wilson and a second round pick to Las Vegas in return for their promise to not take either goaltender.

That's exactly what happened the last time the NHL expanded and I have seen nothing to suggest that will change this go round.

Think about it from Vegas' standpoint. You make all these little deals with vulnerable teams with multiple starting caliber goalies like Pittsburgh, Tampa, Anaheim, etc., and you will make your team much better much faster than you will if Pittsburgh trades Fleury to say, Calgary - leaving you out in the cold.

Then you take say, Niemi from Dallas and you are MUCH better off than you would be by simply taking Fleury.

In other words, Las Vegas will/should aggressively pursue these "non-aggression pacts."

 

[steel_curtain]

As far as the Hawks are concerned Crawford has been their main goalie for the past 5 years and won 2 of those cups. You make it sound like they were playing musical chairs with their goalies.

If Fleury is as big of a choker as you say, do you think another GM would give the Pens and elite wing or a good puck moving d-man in exchange?

-Crawford has not played more than 57 games once in Chicago. That's not even close to a complete season.

-The 2009-10 champions boasted a netminder tandem of Cristobal Huet and Antti Niemi. The 2012-13 champions Corey Crawford and Ray Emery. Finally last year's team had the only holdover, Corey Crawford, as well as Scott Darling. Before winning two Cups, Crawfords highest salary was 2.5 million per year.

http://www.pensinitiative.com/2016/02/is-fleury-trade-on-horizon-by-nick422.html


-We pay Fleury 6 Million dollars. To ride the bench in the playoffs.

 

[Old School1]

Find a way to keep Murray and Fluery?
Two really good goalies over a long tough season could be hard to beat.
Not sure maybe others know more if goalies share time does that diminish their performance?
I guess the conventional wisdom is play the starter 90% of the time with a game off once in a while.
Do we need Malkin going forward? No Malkin might make room for two good goalies.
He played fine in the playoffs but he's getting older.
For me it would be difficult to move Murray who knows what his potential is.

 

[steel_curtain]

Find a way to keep Murray and Fluery?
Two really good goalies over a long tough season could be hard to beat.
Not sure maybe others know more if goalies share time does that diminish their performance?
I guess the conventional wisdom is play the starter 90% of the time with a game off once in a while.
Do we need Malkin going forward? No Malkin might make room for two good goalies.
He played fine in the playoffs but he's getting older.
For me it would be difficult to move Murray who knows what his potential is.

-If you look at Chicago, the answer is no. Crawford never played more than 57 games in a season, and they have 3 cups.

-Get a dominant scoring wing that can light it up and fly on the ice with Crosby. How sick would this team be right now with T.J. Oshie? Only if that deal had gone through, goodness we would rip people.

 

[TD_istheman]

You keep Malkin, my goodness, glad 99.9999 % of this board doesn't leave their house to talk about these ideas, and nobody has to hear any of them. I can't wait to I tell everyone , it was suggested to keep a 6 million dollar goalie on the bench, but instead get rid of Malkin, wow

 

[billyberoux]

Agreed. No one will ever say it. The media loves Fleury, because he is a great guy and he is. However, Sullivan has made a point of saying multiple times what a calming presence Murray provides. Fleury has always provided hectic play and the team followed. I think Fleury played well the last two playoffs because the Penguins had little to lose and not much was expected going into the playoffs. I have no doubt in my mind he would have folded like a tent this year

Interesting. How do you explain MAF being a cup winner udf.

 

[steel_curtain]

Interesting. How do you explain MAF being a cup winner udf.

-He played well in 2009. Look at MAF's save percentage in the playoffs. I dare anyone to try to refute this. These percentages suck as a star goaltender. And he single handily cost us other potential stanley cups. That number in 2012 is embarrassing, and why we lost to the Flyers.

-87% save percentage this year.
-88% in 2013
-83% in 2012
-89% in 2011
-89% in 2010


http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/f/fleurma01.html

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

-If you look at Chicago, the answer is no. Crawford never played more than 57 games in a season, and they have 3 cups.

-Get a dominant scoring wing that can light it up and fly on the ice with Crosby. How sick would this team be right now with T.J. Oshie? Only if that deal had gone through, goodness we would rip people.

If we had traded for Oshie, we would not have traded for Kessel. I think I would take the deal we made.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I'm not sure who the "resident Goaltender guru" that you speak of is, but I'd like to make some comments ......

1) What a TERRIFIC series with Tampa Bay and a GREAT Game 7 for the Pens !

2) My brief analysis of the goals scored in Game 7 from a goalie standpoint .....

PENS GOAL #1 - Rust takes a shot from the middle of the ice about the top of the circles ..... Vasilevskiy is in good position at the top of the crease and is beaten with a GREAT shot over his glove side ..... it was a near perfect shot which made the save difficult but Vasilevskiy was in good position and you hope he makes the save .... not a terrible goal but I think he would like to have that one back.

LIGHTNING GOAL #1 - Drouin drives down the right wing and at the top of the circle cuts across the middle and all the way into the high, inner part of the left circle where he takes a shot which beats Murray to the far post ..... Murray was in good position when Drouin got to the top of the right circle but as he cut across the ice, instead of shuffling out and over to be in the proper position, he went deep in the crease and too far to his right ..... he was about 2 feet too deep and about 10" too far to the right ...... the shot went to the far post where there was a lot of open net ..... a problem with angles/position and goalie movement.

PENS GOAL #2 - Lovejoy shoots the puck from the right point off the boards behind the net and it comes back toward the near post ...... Vasilevskiy is near the corner of the crease when Lovejoy shoots the puck and moves to the near post in a reverse-VH position on the post which is fine ...... however, Vasilevshiy then makes 2 technical errors that lead to the game winning goal for the Pens .... first he reaches back for the puck and misses it so that it comes into the crease by the near post where Rust shoots it through a small opening between the post and Vasilevskiy's pads ...... the second mistake, and a BIG one, was that Vasilevskiy had his goal stick way out of position ..... it was up in the air and off to his right side ...... if he would have had the stick paddle down in front of him when he reached back for the puck, he could have either controlled the puck or stuffed Rust's shot ...... you can actually see him trying to get the stick down in proper position but it was too late. I think he will look at the film, learn a lot, and be a better goalie for it.

3) Murray/Fleury ..... I'm not exactly sure what will happen but Fleury has been really good the last 2-3 years, even good in the playoffs the last two years and he was maybe the best player on the team earlier this season before Sullivan became the coach and he kept us in game after game ..... as some have said, we may not have made the playoffs this season without MAF ...... the concussion obviously really negatively affected him and the prolonged absence has made him just not very ready for games ...... Murray has been very good and looks to have a bright future but you just never know how much young goalies will progress and peak or even take a step backwards once teams get to know their weaknesses ...... they may try to trade Fleury in the off season but I suspect that he will be back and Fleury and Murray will both play early next season and whoever plays the best will take over as the #1 goalie ..... if Murray plays really well and Fleury becomes the back up, they may try to trade Fleury by the deadline if they can get the right trade ..... some of this may also depend on the development of Jarry at WBS and the upcoming NHL expansion draft..... on the other hand, don't bet against Fleury, he could be #1 next season ...... we will just have to see how it plays out .... a lot of variables at this point in time ..... Murray looks to be very well coached and is very advanced in his technique for his age ...... he looks to have a very bright future .... he has things to work on like getting stronger, glove saves, closing the "6" hole, angles/positioning and goalie movement among other things but he has a great fundamental foundation.

4) A word about goalie equipment ..... the reason goals are harder to score is not the size of the goalie equipment getting bigger, in fact, over the last 10 years or so it has in some ways gotten smaller and the size is now regulated ...... the width of the pads was decreased from 12 to 11 inches .... the length of the pads now can't be longer then 38" and every goalie is now measured as to what the longest length of their pads can be ..... the pads can only go so far above the knees and so shorter players have shorter length of pads ...... the chest protectors have to now fit tight to the chest, the jerseys only so wide ..... the size of the blocker and glove are capped and no bigger ...... pants can't have side pads over a certain size..... stick blades and paddles have not gotten bigger ..... the rules were in place but goalies wore oversized equipment in the past and now they can't because it is now regulated ...... all equipment worn by goalies in games has to be certified by the league before hand ...... most of the equipment that is bigger is so because the goalies in general are getting physically bigger......

It is more difficult to score because the goalies are better these days much more then their equipment size which has not increased for years ..... they are getting much better coaching all along the way and goaltending is becoming more scientific as to best angles/positions, goalie movement on and off their skates (power pushes, butterfly crawls, slides, etc.), new techniques (butterfly, post play with VH, VH-hybrid, reverse-VH techniques, ways to play breakaways, etc.) ....... goalies have gotten so good at playing the puck outside the net, that they are now only allowed to play it in the trapezoid behind the goal line..... the only position penalized because they are too good at something.

JUST MY OPINIONS GUYS AND GALS ......

5) Anyway, I can't wait to hear what the real goaltending guru says ...... and I can't wait for the Stanley Cup Finals to start ..... should be a good one !

Thanks goalieman. Yes, you were the guru that I was speaking of. Just was curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

As far as the goaltenders. I agree with a lot of what has been said. They are just much more athletic and much larger now than they were in the 70s and 80s. That is the single biggest reason why scoring has been such a problem for years now.

However, another factor that does not get discussed often enough in this discussion is that their equipment is also much lighter than it was even 10-15 years ago. If you picked up a pair of goaltender pads back in the 80s or 90s, they would be significantly heavier feeling than they are now. And those pads were much lighter than their predecessors in the 60s and 70s.

If they really want to fix this issue once and for all, the only solution is to make the nets larger or the goaltending pads formfitting - like our soldiers wear. Otherwise, we are just spinning our tires.

That's why I said about moving the nets out an inch on each post and crossbar. It would not aesthetically nor tactically change the game. It would not have to cause goaltenders to completely change and relearn the position. It would turn the 4x6 (3456 sq inches) of net to cover into 3650 sq inches. A lot of posts hit would be goals.

It is not a dramatic answer, but an answer.

But what will make this sport grow and continue to improve is if teams like the Pens, the Sharks, the Lightening, the Hawks be successful. And not the Devils or Rangers or any of these teams that think surrounding the goalie with bodies packed in and trapping and playing lifeless hockey that sucks out the energy........that is not good.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I get what you're saying but that assumes that Pittsburgh won't trade, say Scott Wilson and a second round pick to Las Vegas in return for their promise to not take either goaltender.

That's exactly what happened the last time the NHL expanded and I have seen nothing to suggest that will change this go round.

Think about it from Vegas' standpoint. You make all these little deals with vulnerable teams with multiple starting caliber goalies like Pittsburgh, Tampa, Anaheim, etc., and you will make your team much better much faster than you will if Pittsburgh trades Fleury to say, Calgary - leaving you out in the cold.

Then you take say, Niemi from Dallas and you are MUCH better off than you would be by simply taking Fleury.

In other words, Las Vegas will/should aggressively pursue these "non-aggression pacts."

Thing is, we can all speculate, but we don't know all the rules. We do know this, there is absolutely know way the Pens will expose Murray in the expansion draft.

 

[goalieman]

-He played well in 2009. Look at MAF's save percentage in the playoffs. I dare anyone to try to refute this. These percentages suck as a star goaltender. And he single handily cost us other potential stanley cups. That number in 2012 is embarrassing, and why we lost to the Flyers.

-87% save percentage this year.
-88% in 2013
-83% in 2012
-89% in 2011
-89% in 2010


http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/f/fleurma01.html

Of course, you failed to mention Fleury's stats in 2014 and 2015 .... any reason for that ? .... here they are ......

2014 - save % = 91.5 GAA = 2.40

2015 - save % = 92.7 GAA = 2.12

Compare that to Matt Murray's stats this year with a save % = 92.4 and GAA = 2.21

MAF's average save % and GAA's average for 2014 and 2015 is about the same as Matt Murray's numbers this year despite MAF playing behind worse teams the last 2 years then Matt Murray is playing on this year ..... this years team is much better ..... it has been well documented on this board that MAF won the CUP in 2009, then did poorly in the playoffs for several years, but played well the last two playoffs even though the team wasn't that good, he was.... He had a very good regular season this year and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without how well he played early this year .... MAF has been much better since we changed goalie coaches a few years ago which I believe helped his development greatly and I see no reason he wouldn't have played well in the playoffs this year if he hadn't been concussed ..... he was concussed and fortunately Matt Murray has come in and played really well and opened some eyes ..... hopefully that continues in the Finals !!!!!

 

[Old School1]

Of course, you failed to mention Fleury's stats in 2014 and 2015 .... any reason for that ? .... here they are ......

2014 - save % = 91.5 GAA = 2.40

2015 - save % = 92.7 GAA = 2.12

Compare that to Matt Murray's stats this year with a save % = 92.4 and GAA = 2.21

MAF's average save % and GAA's average for 2014 and 2015 is about the same as Matt Murray's numbers this year despite MAF playing behind worse teams the last 2 years then Matt Murray is playing on this year ..... this years team is much better ..... it has been well documented on this board that MAF won the CUP in 2009, then did poorly in the playoffs for several years, but played well the last two playoffs even though the team wasn't that good, he was.... He had a very good regular season this year and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without how well he played early this year .... MAF has been much better since we changed goalie coaches a few years ago which I believe helped his development greatly and I see no reason he wouldn't have played well in the playoffs this year if he hadn't been concussed ..... he was concussed and fortunately Matt Murray has come in and played really well and opened some eyes ..... hopefully that continues in the Finals !!!!!

Yes lets win the Cup this year and worry about personnel changes while the players are celebrating, and golfing over the summer! For a change this is a good problem for the Penguins to have.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

-He played well in 2009. Look at MAF's save percentage in the playoffs. I dare anyone to try to refute this. These percentages suck as a star goaltender. And he single handily cost us other potential stanley cups. That number in 2012 is embarrassing, and why we lost to the Flyers.

-87% save percentage this year.
-88% in 2013
-83% in 2012
-89% in 2011
-89% in 2010


http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/f/fleurma01.html

No, he did not 'single-handedly' cost us cups. Those were team efforts.

 

[steel_curtain]

Of course, you failed to mention Fleury's stats in 2014 and 2015 .... any reason for that ? .... here they are ......

2014 - save % = 91.5 GAA = 2.40

2015 - save % = 92.7 GAA = 2.12

Compare that to Matt Murray's stats this year with a save % = 92.4 and GAA = 2.21

MAF's average save % and GAA's average for 2014 and 2015 is about the same as Matt Murray's numbers this year despite MAF playing behind worse teams the last 2 years then Matt Murray is playing on this year ..... this years team is much better ..... it has been well documented on this board that MAF won the CUP in 2009, then did poorly in the playoffs for several years, but played well the last two playoffs even though the team wasn't that good, he was.... He had a very good regular season this year and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without how well he played early this year .... MAF has been much better since we changed goalie coaches a few years ago which I believe helped his development greatly and I see no reason he wouldn't have played well in the playoffs this year if he hadn't been concussed ..... he was concussed and fortunately Matt Murray has come in and played really well and opened some eyes ..... hopefully that continues in the Finals !!!!!

-We pay the guy almost $6 Million per year for a goaltender. We dont have time to waste on inconsistency, his trade value goes down the older he gets. If you or the GM thinks MAF has finally turned the corner, maybe. But the fact he had so many bust playoff seasons and we have a 22 year old on the verge of winning the Stanley Cup, where we only pay Murray 600K per year, we could restructure the deal and still get out on the cheap with Murray while adding a potential All Star caliber player to the lineup. I would roll the dice with Murray and add the All Star while MAF's trade value is so high. If MAF under performs in the playoffs again next year, we could get stuck with him.

 

[PhPanther1]

loo steel thinks goalies play on and island and believes pens management is dumb enough to throw away the next 3 years of contending for the cup based upon Murray playing solid behind the pens best defensive performance of my lifetime.

It's going to be a 60/40 split next year in favor of Fleury, and if Murray continues to perform, then you talk of trading MAF. You don't throw away a hall of fame goalie who has already won a cup because a 22 year old has come in and put up average numbers.

 

[steel_curtain]

loo steel thinks goalies play on and island and believes pens management is dumb enough to throw away the next 3 years of contending for the cup based upon Murray playing solid behind the pens best defensive performance of my lifetime.

It's going to be a 60/40 split next year in favor of Fleury, and if Murray continues to perform, then you talk of trading MAF. You don't throw away a hall of fame goalie who has already won a cup because a 22 year old has come in and put up average numbers.

-Hall of Fame? He's been in the NHL for 9 seasons and has 2 All Star Game Appearances.

-And there is nothing average about Murray's numbers. Nothing.

 

[PhPanther1]

-Hall of Fame? He's been in the NHL for 9 seasons and has 2 All Star Game Appearances.

-And there is nothing average about Murray's numbers. Nothing.

You do realize that MAF will most likely finish his carreer ranked in the top 5 for wins as far as goalies go don't you?

 

[Old School1]

You do realize that MAF will most likely finish his carreer ranked in the top 5 for wins as far as goalies go don't you?

True but maybe a little light in helping his team go deep in the play-offs against teams the Pens should have beaten. Except for 2009 of course which is a long time ago and a long wait for Pens fans!

 

[PhPanther1]

-Hall of Fame? He's been in the NHL for 9 seasons and has 2 All Star Game Appearances.

-And there is nothing average about Murray's numbers. Nothing.

Compare Murray's numbers to MAF's numbers this year.