Why not Milligan and Carr on the floor together?

[PittMBA]

I would like to see Milligan and Carr on the floor together.

I don’t like the hard substitution pattern that they sub for each other.

I think Carr could be effective off the ball and we get so few transition baskets as our 2gs just don’t seem to be able to push the ball up court. Perhaps with Carr and Milligan on the floor together we’d see better transition opportunities and more movement in the 1/2 court.

It seems clear through 3 games, they are 2 of our best 5 and should be playing together.

I’d like to see a lineup of Milligan, Carr, JWF, Shamiel and Luther. Those are our best 5 scorers and actually provide a bit of experience on a team sorely lacking both.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Bump Milligan off the ball instead and I’m good with it.

Pitt’s not going anywhere this year. I think they need to maximize Carr’s minutes at the point and really make sure they develop him there as much as possible.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Bump Milligan off the ball instead and I’m good with it.

Pitt’s not going anywhere this year. I think they need to maximize Carr’s minutes at the point and really make sure they develop him there as much as possible.

Would you have been ok with Carr getting maximum minutes last night instead of the 13 he got, if it meant losing the game because of it?

I ask because I've been having the same conversation with a friend of mine.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Bump Milligan off the ball instead and I’m good with it.

Pitt’s not going anywhere this year. I think they need to maximize Carr’s minutes at the point and really make sure they develop him there as much as possible.

Would you have been ok with Carr getting maximum minutes last night instead of the 13 he got, if it meant losing the game because of it?

I ask because I've been having the same conversation with a friend of mine.

Yep. I don’t see much of a difference between 5 wins and, say, 15 wins this year.

Develop the youngsters as much as you can.

I realize you can probably only play Brown/Illegomah for limited minutes just because they’re so raw and skinny but I think if a freshman can play 10 minutes, play him 10. If he can play 25, play him 25.

Stallings should be safe this year and probably next year if he shows progress with most of these freshmen. Gotta start trying to maximize their development, I think.

 

[thirteenNINE]

I still don't think that Carr is 100% healthy either, that's a factor here as well.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

I still don't think that Carr is 100% healthy either, that's a factor here as well.

I agree, I don’t think he is either.

 

[R-M-U-h-o-o-p-s-f-a-n]

Yep. I don’t see much of a difference between 5 wins and, say, 15 wins this year.

Develop the youngsters as much as you can.

I realize you can probably only play Brown/Illegomah for limited minutes just because they’re so raw and skinny but I think if a freshman can play 10 minutes, play him 10. If he can play 25, play him 25.

Stallings should be safe this year and probably next year if he shows progress with most of these freshmen. Gotta start trying to maximize their development, I think.

IDK but I say that a 10 win difference is pretty big.

More wins gets more fans in the seats & gives Pitt Hoops a better image for future recruits.
Not saying that Carr shouldn't get more minutes, but winning games is important too.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

IDK but I say that a 10 win difference is pretty big.

More wins gets more fans in the seats & gives Pitt Hoops a better image for future recruits.
Not saying that Carr shouldn't get more minutes, but winning games is important too.

I agree. You gotta get some wins. Show the players that their hard work is paying off. Show the fan base some improvement. Show administration that strides are being made.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Yep. I don’t see much of a difference between 5 wins and, say, 15 wins this year.

Develop the youngsters as much as you can.

I realize you can probably only play Brown/Illegomah for limited minutes just because they’re so raw and skinny but I think if a freshman can play 10 minutes, play him 10. If he can play 25, play him 25.

Stallings should be safe this year and probably next year if he shows progress with most of these freshmen. Gotta start trying to maximize their development, I think.

IDK but I say that a 10 win difference is pretty big.

More wins gets more fans in the seats & gives Pitt Hoops a better image for future recruits.
Not saying that Carr shouldn't get more minutes, but winning games is important too.

My philosophy for this year is that this team isn’t going to make the NCAA Tournament so I think attendance is going to be crap this year and next year no matter what we do.

We also have our class signed for 2018 already, for the most part, so I’m hopeful they can just scrap together a decent 2019 class OR go crazy in the late signing period after a solid showing next year on the court.

 

[R-M-U-h-o-o-p-s-f-a-n]

My philosophy for this year is that this team isn’t going to make the NCAA Tournament so I think attendance is going to be crap this year and next year no matter what we do.

We also have our class signed for 2018 already, for the most part, so I’m hopeful they can just scrap together a decent 2019 class OR go crazy in the late signing period after a solid showing next year on the court.

People will show up for a decent, promising team. Right now being at the literal bottom of the ACC is keeping people away.

Improving and wining some games could/should bring more people to the Pete next year but we'll see what happens.

 

[DiehardPanther]

You play to win the game. Pretty simple.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

My philosophy for this year is that this team isn’t going to make the NCAA Tournament so I think attendance is going to be crap this year and next year no matter what we do.

We also have our class signed for 2018 already, for the most part, so I’m hopeful they can just scrap together a decent 2019 class OR go crazy in the late signing period after a solid showing next year on the court.

People will show up for a decent, promising team. Right now being at the literal bottom of the ACC is keeping people away.

Improving and wining some games could/should bring more people to the Pete next year but we'll see what happens.

I really don’t think people will show for a decent, promising team.

Attendance was declining during Young and Artis’ junior year, where the team made the NCAA Tournament and was poised to return almost the entire team while adding in a recruiting class that people were actually pretty happy with.

That fits “decent” and “promising” pretty much to a T. I don’t think winning 15 games is moving the needle at all in Pittsburgh, and I don’t think you’ll see attendance bump up the following year for a team that misses postseason play.

It’s just how Pittsburgh is, and with a sport like basketball the bandwagon effect is amplified to a significant extent.

 

[R-M-U-h-o-o-p-s-f-a-n]

I really don’t think people will show for a decent, promising team.

Attendance was declining during Young and Artis’ junior year, where the team made the NCAA Tournament and was poised to return almost the entire team while adding in a recruiting class that people were actually pretty happy with.

That fits “decent” and “promising” pretty much to a T. I don’t think winning 15 games is moving the needle at all in Pittsburgh, and I don’t think you’ll see attendance bump up the following year for a team that misses postseason play.

It’s just how Pittsburgh is, and with a sport like basketball the bandwagon effect is amplified to a significant extent.

It won't sell out but it would probably bring respectable attendance at least.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

I really don’t think people will show for a decent, promising team.

Attendance was declining during Young and Artis’ junior year, where the team made the NCAA Tournament and was poised to return almost the entire team while adding in a recruiting class that people were actually pretty happy with.

That fits “decent” and “promising” pretty much to a T. I don’t think winning 15 games is moving the needle at all in Pittsburgh, and I don’t think you’ll see attendance bump up the following year for a team that misses postseason play.

It’s just how Pittsburgh is, and with a sport like basketball the bandwagon effect is amplified to a significant extent.

It won't sell out but it would probably bring respectable attendance at least.

I would be shocked if they could get to 1/2 capacity if they win 15 games. I think they’re going to be scraping by and living off of the diehards and actual hoops fans for the foreseeable future, and I don’t think the number of wins will matter much to them. Those people are going because they love Pitt and enjoy basketball. And, for the most part, they’re going to realize that this season is about the youth, because these are the people who likely follow college basketball outside of Pitt and the NCAA Tournament and have some perspective.

The bandwagon fans who go to watch the opponent and want a gauntlet of OOC home games won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

The fans who gave up tickets because they hate Stallings won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

The fans who don’t really like basketball but want the entertainment of watching an uptempo style won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

I think wins will mean very little for the next couple years. They certainly meant very little for the years leading into this fiasco.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

You play to win the game. Pretty simple.

I think there has been some pretty persuasive evidence recently that playing the long game and taking some losses in a lost year in order to improve in future years is a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Chescat]

I would like to see Milligan and Carr on the floor together.

I don’t like the hard substitution pattern that they sub for each other.

I think Carr could be effective off the ball and we get so few transition baskets as our 2gs just don’t seem to be able to push the ball up court. Perhaps with Carr and Milligan on the floor together we’d see better transition opportunities and more movement in the 1/2 court.

It seems clear through 3 games, they are 2 of our best 5 and should be playing together.

I’d like to see a lineup of Milligan, Carr, JWF, Shamiel and Luther. Those are our best 5 scorers and actually provide a bit of experience on a team sorely lacking both.

I've been hollering for Carr and Milligan together in the backcourt on here for the past several days. I've given my reasons and they're a bit different from the OP here. First of all it's my belief that Carr is more a combo guard than a pg. He definitely is a good shooter as was seen in the Navy game. This wasn't the case against Montana because they were in his grill all game long. Much as I like him, it was painfully obvious that he
couldn't handle that kind of pressure, and it was keeping him from setting up the
offense. Milligan on the other hand subbed for Carr against Navy and had very little
problem with the pressure. He didn't do any scoring, so not much was made of it at
the time, BUT if you noticed he got the start for the UCSB game and we all saw the
results. That btw, IMO was a once in a lifetime game for him. Hell, he even banked one
in from the top of the circle...sometimes it just goes right all night LOL. The problem
I had with it all was that in that game, Carr only got on the floor when he subbed for
Milligan. Milligan was unconscious, so Carr's minutes were reduced.
So the OP and I agree at this point...put them both on the floor together. Miligan
has a handle, he can run the offense since he's a natural pg, and Carr can score
from the 2. Carr can then also be brought along slowly with some game time at the
point.....better than throwing him into the fire and ruin his confidence.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

I think there has been some pretty persuasive evidence recently that playing the long game and taking some losses in a lost year in order to improve in future years is a worthwhile endeavor.

IMO, I have seen zero evidence, much less persuasive evidence, that anything actually happening so far this season will have any positive future effect.

IMHO, two things are required to get Pitt into the top 1/3 of the ACC and into the NCAA tournament.

1. Recruiting very good, but not necessarily great, talent that is only a notch below what the blue bloods get.
2. Play a style that features strong rebounding and solid defense.

That is what Pitt needs to succeed in the ACC, IMO!.

Unfortunately, Stallings recruiting so far hasn't been at that minimum (notch below) needed level and, worse yet, his coaching style appears to not place any emphasize on rebounding and defense.

Bottom line, I believe your optimism about gaining anything from this season is misplaced.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

I think there has been some pretty persuasive evidence recently that playing the long game and taking some losses in a lost year in order to improve in future years is a worthwhile endeavor.

IMO, I have seen zero evidence, much less persuasive evidence, that anything actually happening so far this season will have any positive future effect.

IMHO, two things are required to get Pitt into the top 1/3 of the ACC and into the NCAA tournament.

1. Recruiting very good, but not necessarily great, talent that is only a notch below what the blue bloods get.
2. Play a style that features strong rebounding and solid defense.

That is what Pitt needs to succeed in the ACC, IMO!.

Unfortunately, Stallings recruiting so far hasn't been at that minimum (notch below) needed level and, worse yet, his coaching style appears to not place any emphasize on rebounding and defense.

Bottom line, I believe your optimism about gaining anything from this season is misplaced.

I’m just saying the only way to have a chance of gaining anything from this season is to favor the youth. I’m not saying I’m optimistic about it, I’m just saying your only hope of gaining something is going to lie in the development of the youth.

You can’t worry about fans. They’re gone. Don’t worry about recruits, 2018 is already signed and the Spring periods are always chaos no matter what.

If you want anything good to come of this season, it will have to be from the youth gaining experience.

Winning 15 games vs 5 games because you bench freshmen does nothing to advance your program. Neither fans nor recruits are going to be excited about a team that finishes below .500 and misses postseason play.

 

[Gorachee]

I’m just saying the only way to have a chance of gaining anything from this season is to favor the youth. I’m not saying I’m optimistic about it, I’m just saying your only hope of gaining something is going to lie in the development of the youth.

You can’t worry about fans. They’re gone. Don’t worry about recruits, 2018 is already signed and the Spring periods are always chaos no matter what.

If you want anything good to come of this season, it will have to be from the youth gaining experience.

Winning 15 games vs 5 games because you bench freshmen does nothing to advance your program. Neither fans nor recruits are going to be excited about a team that finishes below .500 and misses postseason play.

I have season tickets and will probably go regardless of the record but it would be much more enjoyable to see a 15 win season. Also, with the turnover in college basketball today, probably some of the freshmen are not here for the long haul, either by their choice or Stallings'. Would you have favored not signing Wilson-Frame and running off Luther and Milligan because they will not be here when the team is good, if it does become good?

 

[Haydman]

I’m just saying the only way to have a chance of gaining anything from this season is to favor the youth. I’m not saying I’m optimistic about it, I’m just saying your only hope of gaining something is going to lie in the development of the youth.

You can’t worry about fans. They’re gone. Don’t worry about recruits, 2018 is already signed and the Spring periods are always chaos no matter what.

If you want anything good to come of this season, it will have to be from the youth gaining experience.

Winning 15 games vs 5 games because you bench freshmen does nothing to advance your program. Neither fans nor recruits are going to be excited about a team that finishes below .500 and misses postseason play.

You might be discounting the effect of winning 5 games could have on recruiting. You might be able to sell a 15 win season as "we're almost there" kind of thing. A five win season has got to be a much tougher sell. I get your point about developing players but recruiting has to improve for it to make any difference at all.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

To clarify my point, I was asked if I would rather lose with youth or win with leaning more heavily on older players.

Obviously winning 15 is preferable if you’re playing the freshmen heavily. You absolutely have more to sell.

But winning 15 games with Luther, Milligan, and Wilson-Frame playing 30+ minutes and being your 3 leading scorers isn’t a selling point. You aren’t “close” if you win 15 games in that manner.

They need to give their freshmen as many minutes as they can handle at the position they are best suited for long-term. Otherwise, your wins don’t matter because you’re starting from scratch next year with needing to break these guys in and get them used to everything.

 

[Chescat]

I’m just saying the only way to have a chance of gaining anything from this season is to favor the youth. I’m not saying I’m optimistic about it, I’m just saying your only hope of gaining something is going to lie in the development of the youth.

You can’t worry about fans. They’re gone. Don’t worry about recruits, 2018 is already signed and the Spring periods are always chaos no matter what.

If you want anything good to come of this season, it will have to be from the youth gaining experience.

Winning 15 games vs 5 games because you bench freshmen does nothing to advance your program. Neither fans nor recruits are going to be excited about a team that finishes below .500 and misses postseason play.

It's not so black and white, in fact IMO it's grey. You can start Luther and Milligan and still
bring the freshmen along slowly and give them more time as they develop.
A few examples:
- Parker Stewart had a good game in game three. He didn't start and was on the bench
more than the first two games. He sat for awhile, observed, and came in and actually
added to our success (double figures). Bring him along slowly, don't throw him
to the wolves as in games one and two.
- Carr...similar experience. He started first two games and was very effective in game one.
Reason he was successful, no on ball pressure by the D. Game two he had a terrible game....reason being he couldn't handle tough, in your face man to man D. He came off
the bench in game three, subbing for Milligan. I want to see him at the 2, because I
believe he's more of a 2 than a pg.
- Brown, because of his height and our lack of big men, he starts. I can see that as long
he's brought along slowly and not fed to the wolves. Again, he also needs to be
brought along slowly.
-Stevenson- he CAN be fed to the wolves because he's physically ready and can
play at this level. Start him, give him major minutes and let him develop. I don't
see a concern for confidence loss with him.
- The others, give them floor time, but again, bring em along slowly.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

I’m just saying the only way to have a chance of gaining anything from this season is to favor the youth. I’m not saying I’m optimistic about it, I’m just saying your only hope of gaining something is going to lie in the development of the youth.

You can’t worry about fans. They’re gone. Don’t worry about recruits, 2018 is already signed and the Spring periods are always chaos no matter what.

If you want anything good to come of this season, it will have to be from the youth gaining experience.

Winning 15 games vs 5 games because you bench freshmen does nothing to advance your program. Neither fans nor recruits are going to be excited about a team that finishes below .500 and misses postseason play.

It's not so black and white, in fact IMO it's grey. You can start Luther and Milligan and still
bring the freshmen along slowly and give them more time as they develop.
A few examples:
- Parker Stewart had a good game in game three. He didn't start and was on the bench
more than the first two games. He sat for awhile, observed, and came in and actually
added to our success (double figures). Bring him along slowly, don't throw him
to the wolves as in games one and two.
- Carr...similar experience. He started first two games and was very effective in game one.
Reason he was successful, no on ball pressure by the D. Game two he had a terrible game....reason being he couldn't handle tough, in your face man to man D. He came off
the bench in game three, subbing for Milligan. I want to see him at the 2, because I
believe he's more of a 2 than a pg.
- Brown, because of his height and our lack of big men, he starts. I can see that as long
he's brought along slowly and not fed to the wolves. Again, he also needs to be
brought along slowly.
-Stevenson- he CAN be fed to the wolves because he's physically ready and can
play at this level. Start him, give him major minutes and let him develop. I don't
see a concern for confidence loss with him.
- The others, give them floor time, but again, bring em along slowly.

That’s why I’m saying give them as many minutes as they can handle.

I know they can’t all play heavy minutes and the seniors are going to need to play.

But you can’t be giving preference to seniors if a freshman is ready for those minutes.

If they think Peace can be something and he can handle 5 minutes a game, even if he’s terrible and just adjusting to the speed of the game the whole time, then they need to play him 5 minutes even if it means taking those minutes from a senior.

If Marcus Carr and Jonathan Milligan are on the floor together, Carr needs to run point even if Milligan is better.

They don’t need to force feed the freshmen minutes but they can’t play Carr for 10 minutes at the point when he’s capable of 20 because they think Milligan is presently better at the point.

Or, they can’t cut a guy out of the rotation because they want to give his 5 minutes to a senior.

They need to figure out the freshmen’s roles and minutes their capable of playing and then fill in around them with the rest.

 

[Chescat]

Good post, I think we basically agree. Like you said,if Carr is ready for 20 minutes at the point, by all means give him those minutes when he's ready.

 

[Haydman]

To clarify my point, I was asked if I would rather lose with youth or win with leaning more heavily on older players.

Obviously winning 15 is preferable if you’re playing the freshmen heavily. You absolutely have more to sell.

But winning 15 games with Luther, Milligan, and Wilson-Frame playing 30+ minutes and being your 3 leading scorers isn’t a selling point. You aren’t “close” if you win 15 games in that manner.

They need to give their freshmen as many minutes as they can handle at the position they are best suited for long-term. Otherwise, your wins don’t matter because you’re starting from scratch next year with needing to break these guys in and get them used to everything.

I don't think we really disagree at all. Young guys need to develop if you want to succeed down the road. I guess my point is that if you sacrifice any significant chance of winning now then we'll struggle for a different reason, lack of recruiting. I don't think 15 wins makes you "close" but the staff is trying to sell young kids that can be influenced by any number of things. Not sure of how many single digit win teams pull in good recruiting classes. The 2018 class already does not look very promising as it sits.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Bump Milligan off the ball instead and I’m good with it.

Pitt’s not going anywhere this year. I think they need to maximize Carr’s minutes at the point and really make sure they develop him there as much as possible.

Would you have been ok with Carr getting maximum minutes last night instead of the 13 he got, if it meant losing the game because of it?

I ask because I've been having the same conversation with a friend of mine.

It is not a fact that we wouldn't have won that game with Carr playing more than Milligan. Milligan was good and Carr wasn't but for me, Carr has to play 32 MPG at the point no matter what. Milligan can play the other 8 and get some time at the 2. If we need Milligan instead of Carr to ensure wins then this program is in much worse shape than anyone thinks

 

[Pittfan85]

It is not a fact that we wouldn't have won that game with Carr playing more than Milligan. Milligan was good and Carr wasn't but for me, Carr has to play 32 MPG at the point no matter what. Milligan can play the other 8 and get some time at the 2. If we need Milligan instead of Carr to ensure wins then this program is in much worse shape than anyone thinks

I agree, Carr has to play more. Just like kithcart should have been played last year when the season was lost.

The real question becomes why wasn’t Milligan playing last year?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I really don’t think people will show for a decent, promising team.

Attendance was declining during Young and Artis’ junior year, where the team made the NCAA Tournament and was poised to return almost the entire team while adding in a recruiting class that people were actually pretty happy with.

That fits “decent” and “promising” pretty much to a T. I don’t think winning 15 games is moving the needle at all in Pittsburgh, and I don’t think you’ll see attendance bump up the following year for a team that misses postseason play.

It’s just how Pittsburgh is, and with a sport like basketball the bandwagon effect is amplified to a significant extent.

It won't sell out but it would probably bring respectable attendance at least.

I would be shocked if they could get to 1/2 capacity if they win 15 games. I think they’re going to be scraping by and living off of the diehards and actual hoops fans for the foreseeable future, and I don’t think the number of wins will matter much to them. Those people are going because they love Pitt and enjoy basketball. And, for the most part, they’re going to realize that this season is about the youth, because these are the people who likely follow college basketball outside of Pitt and the NCAA Tournament and have some perspective.

The bandwagon fans who go to watch the opponent and want a gauntlet of OOC home games won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

The fans who gave up tickets because they hate Stallings won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

The fans who don’t really like basketball but want the entertainment of watching an uptempo style won’t be swayed by 15 wins.

I think wins will mean very little for the next couple years. They certainly meant very little for the years leading into this fiasco.

I agree with this. And the ridiculously high season ticket prices and individual game prices will ensure that you pretty much have to be a an absolute diehard with no better place to be and no better place to drop $1200.

Unless this team gets back to Top 15ish......at these prices, no matter the coach, its going to be an AARP convention. Maybe we can contract with some retirement communities and old age homes to bus in more fans.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

To clarify my point, I was asked if I would rather lose with youth or win with leaning more heavily on older players.

Obviously winning 15 is preferable if you’re playing the freshmen heavily. You absolutely have more to sell.

But winning 15 games with Luther, Milligan, and Wilson-Frame playing 30+ minutes and being your 3 leading scorers isn’t a selling point. You aren’t “close” if you win 15 games in that manner.

They need to give their freshmen as many minutes as they can handle at the position they are best suited for long-term. Otherwise, your wins don’t matter because you’re starting from scratch next year with needing to break these guys in and get them used to everything.

I don't think we really disagree at all. Young guys need to develop if you want to succeed down the road. I guess my point is that if you sacrifice any significant chance of winning now then we'll struggle for a different reason, lack of recruiting. I don't think 15 wins makes you "close" but the staff is trying to sell young kids that can be influenced by any number of things. Not sure of how many single digit win teams pull in good recruiting classes. The 2018 class already does not look very promising as it sits.

My thought now is that the early signing period for 2018 is done, so what happens is irrelevant with regards to them. The spring period is always a cluster-eff and I don’t think record matters there in terms of getting the random kid like Parker Stewart who suddenly decommits and then has limited options.

For the early 2019 class, again, I just don’t think winning with seniors instead of losing with freshmen is sellable. It’ll look better at first glance but you’re still probably going to get crushed when it comes to media expectations and preseason predictions. These recruits are high school kids and they might be immature, but they aren’t dumb about things like who is supposed to be good and I don’t think winning with seniors is fooling anybody.

And, to be clear, I used 15 wins as a number of wins that will put them below .500 and missing out on all postseason play. It was largely arbitrary and I don’t think that’s an attainable number. Most likely they could rely heavily on seniors and they’re winning 10 games max.