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OT: The mess that is the Penguins

Agree, I don't think the Pens will trade Letang nor should they ...... the Pens need to bolster their defense and if they get rid of Letang, it will be very hard for them to replace him with someone of equal or better value ..... in other words, getting rid of Letang probably means weakening their defense .... the Pens need to keep Letang and add to their defense.

IMO, we need to have 8 D-men available who can play at a good level in the NHL ...... I'm fine with Letang, Dumoulin, Maatta, Schultz and like Oleksiak who is young and improving although they will need to sign him as a RFA this off season. Ruhwedel played better then I thought he would in the playoffs....... Hunwick didn't work out so I suspect he will be jettisoned away ...... if so, that means getting 2 D-men in here who can play at an acceptable NHL level ... via trade, free agency, or from WBS if someone can step up their game.

Not many would disagree that Letang had a down year and the question is whether the multiple concussions, stroke, neck surgery, etc. have all caught up with him or whether he can rebound and play at a higher level next season ..... I think the Pens will bet that he can play better next season and will keep him ..... I would agree with that strategy but Rutherford needs to get a couple more NHL capable D-men in here before next season to bolster the overall defensive talent and depth IMO.

When people blame Letang they conveniently forget to mention that Daly, Cole and Hainsey were replaced with Oleksiak, Ruwedel and Hunwick. With all due respect to those 3 that’s a significant drop off. Similarly a healthy Brassard would have made a huge difference but that’s a break the Pens were not afforded this year. Rutherford knows what he’s doing and he is absolutely correct when he says the window is still open. This year is certainly disappointing but in terms of the big picture it ain’t over yet.
 
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Kessel could be moved. Sprong plays the same position and the same game. He's also alot cheaper. My feelings with Phil is as great of a player as he is, all conditioning jokes aside, he definitely needs to change habits both diet and workout. He is now over 30.

As for Sprong, don't Pouliot him (meaning die on the vine), you either have to play him or trade him. Now. If Sully don't like him, move him. Maybe you will get an idiot like Marc Bergevin to trade you a stud defensive prospect like Mikhail Sergachev for Sprong, but I also might win the lottery.

Back to Letang, again, there is no blueline help in the system right now, so it would hard to trade Letang. I would bank on him coming back strong. Better than this year.

And just to tie up these playoffs......

The Caps and Pens have played 3 series in 3 years, the Pens lead 2-1 in the series and 10-9 in total games. It is that close. And when the Pens have played 26 more playoff games than the Caps the past two years, I think both fatigue and hunger played a factor. The Caps wanted it more, and they SHOULD have wanted it more. They played better. Not just in goal, but overall.

When you win back to back cups, you cannot question any of the moves made, and I won't. But also, you have to realize and acknowledge that continued trading of #1 picks and prospects will eventually catch up to you. The Pens have been lucky in that Rust, Guentzel, Murray, all 3rd rd picks or later have performed as good as many 1st rounders. But this year, was that year where a young spark was needed and was not there. Maybe that is Sprong. But again, it is time for the Pens to play him or move him. So he doesn't back check well. Neither does Kessel. I really felt that Kessel was so badly hurt that he really hurt the team, and Sprong could have given the Pens a boost. Or he maybe a total bust like Pouliot. But you got to find out.

I think just like James Neal, who struggled when he first got to the Pens, you will see a better Derek Brassard next year. I think Sheahan's role needs expanded. I think Connor Sheary needs to be moved at all cost. That contract extension was a mistake. I think the D Corp is really solid overall. Needs some depth.

I do think the extra 6 + weeks this team is not playing is going to do both physical and mental good for the team.
 
Kessel could be moved. Sprong plays the same position and the same game. He's also alot cheaper. My feelings with Phil is as great of a player as he is, all conditioning jokes aside, he definitely needs to change habits both diet and workout. He is now over 30.

As for Sprong, don't Pouliot him (meaning die on the vine), you either have to play him or trade him. Now. If Sully don't like him, move him. Maybe you will get an idiot like Marc Bergevin to trade you a stud defensive prospect like Mikhail Sergachev for Sprong, but I also might win the lottery.
I think the only way you think about trading Kessel is you REALLY believe in Sprong and will commit to him getting top time. If you can get a top D prospect and save the cash for a very good D FA (but you have to have that in the bag) then maybe it can work.
 
The truth is somewhere in between on letang.

He’s not worth his contract and his value is below his contract which makes moving him nearly impossible.

Which means the pens are stuck hoping he regains form because he was not good at all last year.

It would be stupid to trade Kessel- and I don’t get the howling about Hagelin who plays harder than every non-Crosby and non-hornqvist player consistently.
 
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I also think that next season, Daniel Sprong needs to be on the Pens NHL roster ...... all indications are that he improved his play away from the puck and defensively at WBS which is what the Pens said he needed to do while he was an excellent goal scorer there this season.

I don't think that the Pens would have beaten the Caps with Sprong playing in the series ..... but as it turns out, secondary scoring was a big problem for the Pens in the series and Sprong may have helped with that ..... and if Sprong has improved his game away from the puck, I doubt he would have been any more of a liability on defense then what we saw from the Pens against the Caps with all those odd man breaks for the Caps ..... we need to bring some young talent onto the team.

Yeah, that’s the message I was telling my friends in real time. I think our lack of secondary scoring was THE primary reason the Penguins lost. The defense definitely struggled – particularly Letang. The goaltending was mostly mediocre. However, all of that would have been mitigated - or possibly even nullified - if they get some goals from someone - anyone - other than Crosby, Guentzel and Hornqvist.

I think it’s so important to get goals from guys you’re not counting on. That’s who wins Stanley Cups - teams who can consistently get goals from throughout their lineup. It is still a game of depth and the playoffs are still a war of attrition.

I was pushing for them to play Sprong because we weren’t getting anything beyond that first line and/or top PP unit. And, as you said, goalie, we were surrendering tons of odd man rushes anyway. My thought was if we are going to play this loosely with Connor Sheary anyway, why not put Sprong in there and give yourself a chance to score goals.

And I’m not intentionally signaling out Sheary. There were two or three other guys that could’ve come out as well. However, he would’ve probably been the first casualty.
 
I agree on not getting value for LeTurnover.. He should have been traded before the deadline.. Now teams see what a Disaster he is on the Ice with and without the Puck. Hunwick, Sheary and Hagelin need to go at the Draft.


Dr von yinzer was missing because his Boy Kris LeTurnover was a Skating disaster every shift...
Dumb.
 
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Yeah, as long as they were winning and I wasn’t commenting, I was happy to not revisit the thread.

Superstitions are definitely a major weakness of mine. It impacts the way I drive home, what I wear when I’m watching the game, etc. It’s really ridiculous. And even more irresponsibly, I find myself passing it on to my children. It’s not good.

I’m sure there were some good conversations here during the playoffs. I’m also sure a lot of ridiculous opinions were espoused.

For whatever reason, in hockey, people tend to have the wackiest opinions.

I was at a birthday party in Columbus at the end of the regular season. Everyone there was a passionate Blue Jackets fan and many of them are season-ticket holders.

We were talking about my beloved Penguins when it looked like the two of us were going to play in the first round.

I think with the exception of one or two of those fans, they all seemed to agree that they would not want Sidney Crosby on their team because he’s a whiner and highly overrated, blah, blah, blah.

We’ve heard it all before.

I teased them that they must hate having parades in June because that’s what guys like Crosby bring to your team. However, for a lot of them they really believe that he’s nothing special and just another player and they would hate having him on their team.

It’s completely illogical.

I just remember shaking my head and wondering in what other sport would that happen? Can you imagine baseball fans all agreeing they would not want Bryce Harper or Mike Trout because they don’t agree with their comportment?

How about football fans saying that they wouldn’t want Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers because they don’t like those guys personally?

What NBA fans would insist that they would never want to have LeBron James or Stephon Curry because they don’t like their act?

None of those things happen because people saying those crazy things would be laughed out of the room.

And yet in hockey we see insanity like that all the time and it’s not new. We’ve seen this for years with various players.

Even with the Letang stuff, most of the hatred of the guy just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Yes, he clearly struggled this season. There’s just no question about that. This was his worst season as a pro – and not by a little bit.

Personally, I think he was hurt all year. He lacked his trademark skating burst and he couldn’t even turn to his left. That’s one of the most agile skaters in the entire NHL and he couldn’t turn in one direction.

Now, maybe he has fallen off a cliff? Maybe all of the injuries and illnesses and other maladies have finally caught up to him and he will never again be the player he has been for a long time for this team? That’s entirely possible. However, I would need to see that again before I would deal him. He is still a conditioning freak and he’s just 31 years-old.

Also, I don’t think the Letang haters are getting it. He has been underpaid relative to what he has brought to this team – except this year. This year, he was not worth the money. However, in previous years, having that guy logging those minutes at $7 million per year has been incredibly fortunate for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

However, don’t take my word for it. Your quarrel is not with me. Your quarrel is with Mike Sullivan - who continued to play the guy 25 minutes per night during what was clearly a down year for the guy.

Why on earth would Sully do that? Doesn’t he know what he’s doing?

You also disagree with Jim Rutherford and the rest of the Penguins’ upper management, who clearly agreed with Sullivan’s decision to play the team’s number one defenseman more minutes than any other player on the team.

Again, when are those guys going to get a clue?

Don’t get mad at me, take it up with the guys who actually have some say in the matter and who very clearly and very adamantly disagree with you.

The Penguins minutes leaders were Letang, followed by Dumoulin, followed by Schultz, followed by Maatta, followed by Oleksiak, followed by Ruhwedel. There’s your official pecking order. That’s not according to my own personal rankings, that’s what the actual experts whose careers are riding on such rankings are flat out telling you. Your best players play the most minutes, it’s not that complicated. Also, that is particularly true on the back end.

I’m tired of arguing about it because it’s a ridiculous debate. Multiple coaches and multiple general managers have long since settled the entire debate so as far as I’m concerned there is no reasonable debate to be had.

Now, if next year is similar to what we saw this year, then yes, I would definitely advocate trading him. However, if it’s comparable to what we say from the guy for the first 10 years of his NHL career, I DEFINITELY want that guy on my team because he has long been one of the best defensemen in the NHL and he has been head and shoulders better than all of the rest of the Penguins’ D for nearly all of his time in Pittsburgh.
 
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Yeah, as long as they were winning and I wasn’t commenting, I was happy to not revisit the thread.

Superstitions are definitely a major weakness of mine. It impacts the way I drive home, what I wear when I’m watching the game, etc. It’s really ridiculous. And even more irresponsibly, I find myself passing it on to my children. It’s not good.

I’m sure there were some good conversations here during the playoffs. I’m also sure a lot of ridiculous opinions were espoused.

For whatever reason, in hockey, people tend to have the wackiest opinions.

I was at a birthday party in Columbus at the end of the regular season. Everyone there was a passionate Blue Jackets fan and many of them are season-ticket holders.

We were talking about my beloved Penguins when it looked like the two of us were going to play in the first round.

I think with the exception of one or two of those fans, they all seemed to agree that they would not want Sidney Crosby on their team because he’s a whiner and highly overrated, blah, blah, blah.

We’ve heard it all before.

I teased them that they must hate having parades in June because that’s what guys like Crosby bring to your team. However, for a lot of them they really believe that he’s nothing special and just another player and they would hate having him on their team.

It’s completely illogical.

I just remember shaking my head and wondering in what other sport would that happen? Can you imagine baseball fans all agreeing they would not want Bryce Harper or Mike Trout because they don’t agree with their comportment?

How about football fans saying that they wouldn’t want Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers because they don’t like those guys personally?

What NBA fans would insist that they would never want to have LeBron James or Stephon Curry because they don’t like their act?

None of those things happen because people saying those crazy things would be laughed out of the room.

And yet in hockey we see insanity like that all the time and it’s not new. We’ve seen this for years with various players.

Even with the Letang stuff, most of the hatred of the guy just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Yes, he clearly struggled this season. There’s just no question about that. This was his worst season as a pro – and not by a little bit.

Personally, I think he was hurt all year. He lacked his trademark skating burst and he couldn’t even turn to his left. That’s one of the most agile skaters in the entire NHL and he couldn’t turn in one direction.

Now, maybe he has fallen off a cliff? Maybe all of the injuries and illnesses and other maladies have finally caught up to him and he will never again be the player he has been for a long time for this team? That’s entirely possible. However, I would need to see that again before I would deal him. He is still a conditioning freak and he’s just 31 years-old.

Also, I don’t think the Letang haters are getting it. He has been underpaid relative to what he has brought to this team – except this year. This year, he was not worth the money. However, in previous years, having that guy logging those minutes at $7 million per year has been incredibly fortunate for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

However, don’t take my word for it. Your quarrel is not with me. Your quarrel is with Mike Sullivan - who continued to play the guy 25 minutes per night during what was clearly a down year for the guy.

Why on earth would Sully do that? Doesn’t he know what he’s doing?

You also disagree with Jim Rutherford and the rest of the Penguins’ upper management, who clearly agreed with Sullivan’s decision to play the team’s number one defenseman more minutes than any other player on the team.

Again, when are those guys going to get a clue?

Don’t get mad at me, take it up with the guys who actually have some say in the matter and who very clearly and very adamantly disagree with you.

The Penguins minutes leaders were Letang, followed by Dumoulin, followed by Schultz, followed by Maatta, followed by Oleksiak, followed by Ruhwedel. There’s your official pecking order. That’s not according to my own personal rankings, that’s what the actual experts whose careers are riding on such rankings are flat out telling you. Your best players play the most minutes, it’s not that complicated. Also, that is particularly true on the back end.

I’m tired of arguing about it because it’s a ridiculous debate. Multiple coaches and multiple general managers have long since settled the entire debate so as far as I’m concerned there is no reasonable debate to be had.
Doc, I am not superstitious except when it comes to hockey. I finally retired (shredded) my Brownie Mary t-shirt worn almost every game during the 2008-2010 playoffs. I will finally retire my Pens cap bought in 2007 that is so worn it is like 10 oz too heavy and no longer black from fade and sweat. I altered shaving habits, etc...all just weird. But hey, 3 Cups, right? Who am I to go against this?

The fact is, I am 50 now, I grew up with the Pens. I have the fortune of following the team since its blue unis. I remember George Ferguson, Syl Apps, Jean Pronovost and of course, Pierre Larouche. I remember when Jim Hamilton was the ONLY person in the Pens farm system.

I was in the stands (as a little kid) for the Pens 1-0 loss to the Islanders. I cried when the Pens lost to the Isles in 1982. I was lucky enough to have friends who.....had brothers or family that were hockey writers. I had really good friends who were in the Pens marketing department. I played Dek Hockey on the Pens marketing department team. I saw Mario's first home game in A16. I sat next to Mario's mom and dad during the All Star game. I was hugged by Phil Bourque at the airport going onto the bus in 1991 after the first Cup. Mark Recchi used to hang out with us.

I guess what I am saying all of this, the last 30 years, to any of us who grew up with this team, we have become the league's preeminent franchise if you will. How about that? I totally appreciate this. 5 Cups in 30 years. Lemieux. Jagr. Coffey. Francis. Recchi. Trottier. Stevens. Tocchet. Murphy. Robitaille. Sandstrom. Olcyck. Kovalev. Hossa. Fleury. Sid. Geno. Letang. Kessel. Murray. My god.........an embarrassment of riches. And I appreciate all of this, I sit back and as a hockey fan, a Penguins fan, I can die a happy and proud man. We have seen the best, we have been the best. We still can be the best. Just amazing if you think back to Greg Malone, Blair Chapman, Gordie Laxton, Rico Fata, Tomas Surouvy, Dick Tarnstrom....

The Pens are the ultimate NHL version of a Dickens Novel. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. And lucky for us, the last 30 years, the former has far surpassed the latter.
 
I won a spelling bee in grade school and I had the choice of tickets to a Penguins game or a Pittsburgh Spirit MISL game.

I did not deliberate long and I chose the Penguins tickets and was very proud of my winnings. This was of course, pre-Lemieux. The Penguins were terrible and I knew it but it was still an opportunity to see an NHL game and I knew that was one of the four major sports. Also, they were playing Detroit Red Wings and I knew that was special too.

Well, the runner-up quickly accepted the Spirit tickets and made a sarcastic comment about me making a boneheaded choice. I remember the class bursting into laughter and the debate continuing for the next several days - even among my good friends. The kids in my class legitimately thought I had chosen the lesser option and were flummoxed by my decision.

Naturally, given my personality, that immediately turned me into a huge fan of the Pittsburgh Penguins. Those people could all kiss my ass as far as I was concerned. I knew I was right and I was determined to prove it.

And of course I let everyone of them know it when the Spirit left town and the MISL folded.

However, I think what sealed it for me was actually in the ‘82 playoffs, Pittsburgh had 2-0 third period lead in the fifth and deciding game against the two-time defending Stanley Cup champion New York Islanders.

Unfortunately, as we all know by now, the Penguins were unable to hold onto that lead and lost it in the final minutes and OT on what were essentially back-to-back breakaways and giveaways.



It was the early 80s – there was no such thing as systems or defensive structure. It was basically the Wild West out there.

John Tonelli ultimately did us in – as he did a lot of teams over the years.



Anyway, in those days, we used to get WWOR out of Secaucus, NJ. It was the first “superstation,” as it were. We also used to get WUAB out of Stuebenville and WTBS out of Atlanta. WGN out of Chicago didn’t come around for a few more years.

As such, I always had the opportunity to watch a ton of New York Mets baseball, Knicks basketball and Islanders hockey before everything became omnipresent. I also watched a lot of Indians, Cavaliers and Braves games.

I also grew to really hate all of those teams. So I think the combination of being taunted for liking the Penguins, then seeing them lose a real heartbreaker to a team I already disliked (courtesy of WWOR) made me an even more passionate fan of the team.

Then, of course, they drafted 66 and that took things to a whole different level to where I have pretty much stayed for the rest of my life - even during the Dick Tarnstrom/Thomas Surovy/Alexei Morozov years.
 
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What I really like about the last clip was how classy the Islanders fans were towards the recently vanquished Penguins. No taunts or jeers, just respect and enthusiasm.

Awesome!

That respect factor was always one of the things that always set hockey apart from the other sports. It was tough as hell during a series but total respect afterward.

I really loved and identified with that mentality.

We have lost in recent years. Things like the fans in Montreal and Philadelphia giving Lemieux a standing ovation – things like that. That is going by the wayside now and that saddens me to no end.

That’s part of what made hockey different than the other sports and I am so sad to see that replaced with bush league BS like we see in Nashville, Columbus, etc.
 
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It would be stupid to trade Kessel- and I don’t get the howling about Hagelin who plays harder than every non-Crosby and non-hornqvist player consistently.
Totally with you there. Kessel just had a career year, he was a huge factor in 2 cup championships. I don't think it would be wise to just trade him thinking he could be easily replaced after 1 down playoff year in which he was probably hurt.

Somewhat related topic, I find it fascinating that while Phil kessel is clearly not the world's most fit athlete, he's one of the iron men of the NHL. I was amazed when I looked that the last time Phil kessel didn't play in a regular or post season game that his team was playing in was in the 2009-10 season.
 
What I really like about the last clip was how classy the Islanders fans were towards the recently vanquished Penguins. No taunts or jeers, just respect and enthusiasm.

Awesome!

That respect factor was always one of the things that always set hockey apart from the other sports. It was tough as hell during a series but total respect afterward.

I really loved and identified with that mentality.

We have lost in recent years. Things like the fans in Montreal and Philadelphia giving Lemieux a standing ovation – things like that. That is going by the wayside now and that saddens me to no end.

That’s part of what made hockey different than the other sports and I am so sad to see that replaced with bush league BS like we see in Nashville, Columbus, etc.

Amen. I know this is provincial, but the lack of respect Sidney Crosby gets is just disgusting. And I hate these nouveau riche teams like Nashville and their clownlike fanbases "its all your fault".....I hate that kind of stuff.....how about root for your own team, isn't that enough??

Of course I was at the "1940" game against the Rangers where we sing songed that as the Pens were knocking them out of the playoffs...but that was mostly in response to the Rangers intentionally knocking out Lemieux in that series.
 
I would not be eager to trade Kessel either. Sprong would have to really establish himself as a legitimate NHL caliber sniper before I would even consider it, TBH.

People keep saying that it makes sense because Sprong plays the same position as Kessel, but you have four lines. That means he also plays the same position as Connor Sheary, Patric Hornqvist and Zach Aston-Reese.

And with a winger like that, who is not going to be a defense-first type of player anyway, you can easily put him on the left side as well. In fact, with his shot, he might be more effective on the left side.

However, I would not just assume that because he scored in the AHL he is definitely going to score in the NHL because a million guys have scored in the former without scoring in the latter.

There are plenty of ways to trim salary without dealing away one of the team’s best players.

No matter what we do, it has to start on the back end. We probably need to add two or three NHL caliber defensemen and that’s going to be a real challenge because everyone else is looking for defensemen as well.

The point about Bergevin giving up Sergeychev for Drouin was spot on! That’s probably the dumbest trade I’ve seen in a long time. Drouin is really talented player but he’s a winger and they are a lot easier to find than franchise D - especially offensively gifted D like Sergeychev.

Montreal obviously gambled they could make Drouin into a center, but that clearly did not work. And that should come as a surprise to exactly nobody because Drouin didn’t even play center in junior hockey. It was honestly an extremely stupid idea from the very beginning.

Quality defensemen are extremely rare and you need to treat them as the valuable resources they are. To just give one away is incredibly dumb asset management. There’s really no other way to put it.
 
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Totally with you there. Kessel just had a career year, he was a huge factor in 2 cup championships. I don't think it would be wise to just trade him thinking he could be easily replaced after 1 down playoff year in which he was probably hurt.

Somewhat related topic, I find it fascinating that while Phil kessel is clearly not the world's most fit athlete, he's one of the iron men of the NHL. I was amazed when I looked that the last time Phil kessel didn't play in a regular or post season game that his team was playing in was in the 2009-10 season.

Yeah but I think that cost him and the Pens. He should have been sat the last week or so, to get ready for the playoffs. I think he was a bit selfish in that streak.......
 
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Yeah but I think that cost him and the Pens. He should have been sat the last week or so, to get ready for the playoffs. I think he was a bit selfish in that streak.......

Agree... I think Sullivan alluded to that same thought as well. Basically saying a streak like that isn't always a good thing.

I personally agree with that is not a good thing necessarily. Yeah, you like to have a guy that is dependable each night but if that guy is playing through injuries and changing his game due to those injuries, does it really mean that much in the end? Not to me, would rather he miss games here and there and play full speed ahead than play half a$$ed due to nagging injuries he is playing through.
 
Yeah but I think that cost him and the Pens. He should have been sat the last week or so, to get ready for the playoffs. I think he was a bit selfish in that streak.......

I agree with this as well. Kessel was clearly wobbly down the stretch but he wanted to keep the active games played streak going. However, he never really was right in the playoffs, so would he have benefited from some time off? It’s impossible to say without knowing his condition, but it sure would seem like it.

Winning three consecutive Stanley Cups would’ve done a lot more for his legacy than playing in 1000 straight games or whatever it will eventually be.
 
Amen. I know this is provincial, but the lack of respect Sidney Crosby gets is just disgusting. And I hate these nouveau riche teams like Nashville and their clownlike fanbases "its all your fault".....I hate that kind of stuff.....how about root for your own team, isn't that enough??

Of course I was at the "1940" game against the Rangers where we sing songed that as the Pens were knocking them out of the playoffs...but that was mostly in response to the Rangers intentionally knocking out Lemieux in that series.

Yeah, I guess it just felt different whenever there was legitimate animosity between two teams or two fan bases and the fans let out the animosity as a release.

For example, the famous NINE-teen-FOR-ty chant really started between the Islanders and the Rangers. It was a way for the Islanders fans to remind the fans of the far more established Rangers that the upstart organization was sitting atop the NHL’s pecking order while the much more established club had gone 40 some years (at that point) without winning a single Stanley Cup. That was real, that was organic and that was cool.

It was a similar situation with the Quebec fans singing “Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye” to the Montreal fans at the end of their series. That was phenomenal! That was real! That was very similar dynamic to that which existed between the Islanders and Rangers and I’m sure the Nords fans were sick to death of the Habs fans’ near constant gloating.

That’s a lot different than trying to manufacture that for a regular season game between Nashville and the Carolina Hurricanes by playing silly sound effects over the loudspeakers and organizing derisive cheers amongst your fans.

That’s what I’m talking about - the organizationally contrived BS. It feels like minor league stuff to me and I don’t respect that approach at all.

I just think it comes down to whether or not you are intelligent and/or experienced enough to have experienced the difference between the two approaches so that you can know how hollow this feels versus how authentic that felt.
 
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Interesting right now is how well the Caps are playing. It seems like a piano has been lifted from that organization's back now. I bear no ill will to them, and if they win a Cup good for them. But I thought Tampa would steamroll the winner of Pens/Caps but the reverse is happening. I can't imagine the Caps center rocking the red their next game.
 
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Yeah, the Caps look really good. However, Tampa Bay is not playing nearly hard enough. They still may not be good enough to beat Washington, but they are definitely better than they are showing so far in this series.

I thought last night Chris Kunitz was Tampa Bay’s best player and he was certainly their most noticeable player. That cannot happen at this time of year. TB scored two early power-play goals and then basically wilted. How can a team with Hedman and McDonagh back there look that terrible defensively?

Where is Kucherov? Where is Stamkos? What are they doing 5-on-5 because Washington is absolutely kicking their ass and even strength.
 
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Here's my hockey pedigree so I can chip in. Started at Pitt in 1970 when the Pens were still in their infancy, or at least bicycling with their training wheels on. You could go down to the igloo on the bus and get almost rinkside tickets at the box office a half an hour before the puck dropped! We had played "hockey" at the Frozen Square back home, but didn't play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules. It was more like Ice rugby, but it was fun.
Back then, the Pens thrived on other teams has beens, Pete Mahovlich from Montreal, and a lot of washed up Broad Street Bullies. Syl Apps, Jean Pronovost, Pierre LaRouche, those were the draws prior to 66.
Now hockey in Pittsburgh is like drinking Crown Royal as opposed to Seagrams 7!
That said, the Pens are in a weird place. They have a core of incredibly talented players who are at the zenith of their skills, Crosby and Malkin for sure, Letang and Kessel to a lesser extent. They have some very dependable guys like Dumolin and Guentzel and Hornquist and Murray but they also have some question marks and needs.
The competition has gotten much better and faster with young talent, and the Cole trade blew a big hole in the defensive corps. I see the biggest needs for this team is defensemen and a solid backup goalie, either establish one of the youngsters, or bring one in.
When Murray faltered, or needed a break, they had no other options in the playoffs. Had Murray been injured, like he almost was, or perhaps was without our knowing it, there was nothing to do.
The past cup winners had great character guys and adequately skilled players to stock the 3rd and 4th lines. A lot of these guys are still playing on teams that are not yet golfing. This year's club had a softer underbelly, those lines didn't scare anyone and didn't produce jack.
So what to do? In order to address these needs, something has to give or more precisely given up.
You can go all Bucco and attempt to dumpster dive and get lucky with someone's castoffs. It has worked before. Or you can move some salary and address your needs through FA, or you can make a deal straight up.
Madden opined on the Sprong/Kessel situation. How they are the same player, and neither is a good two way player. For a defensively challenged team adding another forward who isn't good in his own end doesn't seem smart. Neither does trading one of your two best defensemen, who even coming back from serious medical issues played tons of minutes.
Hagelin is their best penalty killer not named Crosby, he is an important player.
So who do you move, or do you stand pat and try again with the same squad? Rutherford said changes will be made, he isn't the type to sit still. Also said Sprong is coming up, so there's that.
Maybe some of the role players will improve to strengthen the bottom lines. Maybe Brassard will come to life in year 2 and make the third line better. Maybe put Sprong with Crosby and Guentzel, move Hornquist down with Brassard, and let Malkin, Kessel and Hagelin skate on the 2nd line and fly around? The fourth line is the checking line, so anything you get there is fine so long as they don't give up too many. I could live with that, but they have to address the defensive corps and backup goalie.
It will be very interesting to watch to see if Rutherford can have another magical off season and give them the ammo for a 3rd cup in 4 years. It is very possible with their stars, but Murray has to be better and healthy and the blue line has to be helped.
I'd rather be us than anyone else because we get to watch Sid and Geno with our sweaters on, that alone is worth the price of the ticket.
Back when we started to go, that ticket was about $5 bucks. LOL
Edit to add: Or maybe put Sprong with Brassard on the third line, and leave Hornquist where he is. There are some intriguing possibilities. Maybe Hagelin skates with Sprong and Brassard to clean up some of Sprong's shortcomings on D, but he could serve the same role with Kessel, and his speed makes him a better option with Kessel who's passing is very underrated. I really like Malkin/Kessel/Hagelin together! See what I mean about playing with lines and personnel?
 
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Yeah but I think that cost him and the Pens. He should have been sat the last week or so, to get ready for the playoffs. I think he was a bit selfish in that streak.......
Do we know for sure the injury occurred late in the season and not early in the playoffs? If yes, then I agree, I'll never criticize a player for trying to compete every night but the team should've stepped in if an injured player is gonna hurt them in the long run.
 
Letang was a minus-4 against the caps in the playoffs. He was awful. Im sure we can’t unload his contract, but those defending his play—I just can’t agree with. Nothing elite about his play this year yet he was an allstar. Im all for unloading that hot mess if we can.
 
Letang was a minus-4 against the caps in the playoffs. He was awful. Im sure we can’t unload his contract, but those defending his play—I just can’t agree with. Nothing elite about his play this year yet he was an allstar. Im all for unloading that hot mess if we can.

I don’t think anyone is really defending Kris Letang’s play, per se. I know that’s not what I’m doing. I think everyone agrees that he had a down year overall and was particularly bad against Washington.

I just don’t agree that his best days are definitely behind him. I mean, that certainly could be the case but who knows? Frankly, you could apply that same logic to any of the Penguins’ 30+-year-old stars.

I also don’t understand how people could possibly look at his TOI and come to any other conclusion than our own coaches believe him to be the team’s best defenseman? I mean if he was such a liability, why was he playing more than everyone else?

From where I sit, that fact ends the debate altogether. What else is there to talk about?

I think what happens with Letang is sometimes his mistakes are so glaring that people only notice those and don’t fully appreciate the other side of the coin like his coaches do, for example.

Letang can definitely try to do too much, which sometimes leads to really awful looking turnovers. He often presses so hard and sometimes that can lead to some really dumb mistakes.

This year, that was exacerbated by the fact that he it’s coming off major neck surgery and did not appear to have that extra burst of speed to help bail himself and the team out of trouble for some of their mistakes. We definitely saw that in the Washington series. A healthy Kris Letang easily chases down Kuznetsov in what was ultimately the series clinching goal.

Maybe that burst is gone forever? If it is, then he will suddenly become a very different player and this will suddenly become a very different discussion. However, what if it’s not gone? What if he was playing through a lot of pain and with a full off-season to rest and rehabilitate it will be better?

For all the talk about horrible he was, you must understand that Letang was also the leading scorer amongst defensemen for the team in the playoffs. He was also an even player for the playoffs, which is better than half of our D-core and a lot better than 81 and 71, for example.

Are you telling me that Phil Kessel’s best days aren’t behind him? Again, I don’t have a crystal ball, so I don’t know one way or the other what the future holds for anyone. I would not trade him either. However, I think Kessel is more likely to fall off the age cliff than a conditioning freak like Letang.

People often attribute Letang’s point totals to secondary assists – which is partly true. He does pick up a lot of assists in transition. However, he picks up so many secondary assists because he breaks us out of our zone far better than any other player on the team and it’s not close.

That’s a really big deal for a team that relies on transition goals to win games.

As I have said many times before, if they get a great trade opportunity for the guy, I would definitely consider it.

For example, let’s say Ottawa decides that it wants him and Sprong and perhaps a high pick or another asset for Erik Karlsson? Were that to happen, I would make the trade.However, that is not likely to happen. Also, just trading him to dump his salary would be...umm...remarkably dumb.

Therefore, our best bet is to clearly hang on to him and hope that he recaptures the form of 2016 and 2017 in which he was one of the best defensemen in hockey. However, 2018 is the new normal for him then of course you have to do whatever you can to get out from underneath that salary.

That said, trading away the guy who eats up the most minutes on the team is not something I would recommend – especially for a team that is already a little thin on the back end.
 
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Letang was a minus-4 against the caps in the playoffs. He was awful. Im sure we can’t unload his contract, but those defending his play—I just can’t agree with. Nothing elite about his play this year yet he was an allstar. Im all for unloading that hot mess if we can.

I don't think anyone is defending Letang's play this season, everyone is basically saying he had a down year and I don't think there is any question about that .....

The real question is, can he bounce back next season and become the player he has been over the years or is he on the down side of his career .......

Letang's trade value right now is at an all time low and I doubt the Pens would get much for him ...... however, if some team wanted to give us a good deal for Letang, I'd certainly listen ......

One of the Pens biggest needs is to bolster their defense and getting rid of Letang is more likely to do the opposite IMO unless we can sign a top notch defenseman as a free agent which is unlikely (and trading for one would cost us a Kessel) ...... even if we keep Letang, we still need to bring in a couple more NHL competent D-men IMO .......

The neck surgery last year really kept him from conditioning last summer and with a longer summer of conditioning and working on his game, the Pens hope he will be a much better player next season ..... if he is not, I think he will be gone after next year.
 
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I agree, that is the $64,000 question. Was this year’s performance a result of him coming off major surgery and never fully recovering, or is this his new normal? That is definitely the central question here.

However, wouldn’t you like to see a little bit more before you make any decisions? I know I would.

If we trade away this guy on the hunch that he’s done and he goes on to continue to be a dominant player for someone else for four or five more years, we are definitely going to regret that decision because we don’t have anyone else in the entire system who can nearly do what he can do when he is healthy.... which is precisely why he plays so many minutes every night.
 
He’s impossible not to root for.

He's one of the truly good and decent athletes. I believe Sid is one of these also. There are alot of Pirate and Steelers fans who get pissed off at the Pens coverage and media attitudes, but my god, not only were some of these guys great players, but great people, not put ons, truly great guys. I mean look at the clowns on the Steelers and look at the Pens.

Great story, after the 1st cup had a couple of buddies in the Southside going out for drinks and food in the Carson Street Saloon. Unbeknownst to them, the Pens were having a private party there. And as the bartender was telling them that they can't order anything because it is closed, Max Talbot and Sid were ordering some drinks. They over heard it, invited the guys to stay {provided they don't call and text friends to come over) and paid for their meals and drinks.

Just real guys who appreciate their wealth and fame moreso than other pro athletes.
 
I don't think anyone is defending Letang's play this season, everyone is basically saying he had a down year and I don't think there is any question about that .....

The real question is, can he bounce back next season and become the player he has been over the years or is he on the down side of his career .......

Letang's trade value right now is at an all time low and I doubt the Pens would get much for him ...... however, if some team wanted to give us a good deal for Letang, I'd certainly listen ......

One of the Pens biggest needs is to bolster their defense and getting rid of Letang is more likely to do the opposite IMO unless we can sign a top notch defenseman as a free agent which is unlikely (and trading for one would cost us a Kessel) ...... even if we keep Letang, we still need to bring in a couple more NHL competent D-men IMO .......

The neck surgery last year really kept him from conditioning last summer and with a longer summer of conditioning and working on his game, the Pens hope he will be a much better player next season ..... if he is not, I think he will be gone after next year.
I truly believe your last sentence is the crux of the situation here. Letang did not have the opportunity to properly prepare for this season in his usual manner. Ya think that might have contributed significantly to his relatively poor season?
I won't judge him until he has the opportunity to get back to his normal routine in the off season and see how he looks next season. My guess is this year was an aberration and the better Letang will emerge.

Secondly, I think a lot of people misunderstand what kind of player/defenseman he is when he is on his game. He is more a Paul Coffey type of defenseman than an Ulf Samuelson type of defenseman. His game is to move the puck out of the zone, get the transition going by passing or skating the puck forward. He has the speed to do that, not Coffey speed, but enough when on his game. He also is the quarterback of the power play, he is a good passer and knows when to join the rush. He is NOT a stay at home defenseman by any stretch.

To be totally effective, he needs a partner who IS. That is the key to improving the Pens defense, A health Letang and an effective pairing. That is a pretty darn good first pairing.

Now, you have to work down the line to the next two pairings. Ollie Matta is A-ok as one of those, you need three more effective guys, and the final two need to be stay at home bulls.

Finally you need a consistent backstop and a good backup for him. Give me that, and I'm sure they'll be right back in the discussion for another cup. This year's disappointment should fuel these guys desire to do it again. I wouldn't bet that they won't.
 
I don’t think anyone is really defending Kris Letang’s play, per se. I know that’s not what I’m doing. I think everyone agrees that he had a down year overall and was particularly bad against Washington.

I just don’t agree that his best days are definitely behind him. I mean, that certainly could be the case but who knows? Frankly, you could apply that same logic to any of the Penguins’ 30+-year-old stars.

I also don’t understand how people could possibly look at his TOI and come to any other conclusion than our own coaches believe him to be the team’s best defenseman? I mean if he was such a liability, why was he playing more than everyone else?

From where I sit, that fact ends the debate altogether. What else is there to talk about?

I think what happens with Letang is sometimes his mistakes are so glaring that people only notice those and don’t fully appreciate the other side of the coin like his coaches do, for example.

Letang can definitely try to do too much, which sometimes leads to really awful looking turnovers. He often presses so hard and sometimes that can lead to some really dumb mistakes.

This year, that was exacerbated by the fact that he it’s coming off major neck surgery and did not appear to have that extra burst of speed to help bail himself and the team out of trouble for some of their mistakes. We definitely saw that in the Washington series. A healthy Kris Letang easily chases down Kuznetsov in what was ultimately the series clinching goal.

Maybe that burst is gone forever? If it is, then he will suddenly become a very different player and this will suddenly become a very different discussion. However, what if it’s not gone? What if he was playing through a lot of pain and with a full off-season to rest and rehabilitate it will be better?

For all the talk about horrible he was, you must understand that Letang was also the leading scorer amongst defensemen for the team in the playoffs. He was also an even player for the playoffs, which is better than half of our D-core and a lot better than 81 and 71, for example.

Are you telling me that Phil Kessel’s best days aren’t behind him? Again, I don’t have a crystal ball, so I don’t know one way or the other what the future holds for anyone. I would not trade him either. However, I think Kessel is more likely to fall off the age cliff than a conditioning freak like Letang.

People often attribute Letang’s point totals to secondary assists – which is partly true. He does pick up a lot of assists in transition. However, he picks up so many secondary assists because he breaks us out of our zone far better than any other player on the team and it’s not close.

That’s a really big deal for a team that relies on transition goals to win games.

As I have said many times before, if they get a great trade opportunity for the guy, I would definitely consider it.

For example, let’s say Ottawa decides that it wants him and Sprong and perhaps a high pick or another asset for Erik Karlsson? Were that to happen, I would make the trade.However, that is not likely to happen. Also, just trading him to dump his salary would be...umm...remarkably dumb.

Therefore, our best bet is to clearly hang on to him and hope that he recaptures the form of 2016 and 2017 in which he was one of the best defensemen in hockey. However, 2018 is the new normal for him then of course you have to do whatever you can to get out from underneath that salary.

That said, trading away the guy who eats up the most minutes on the team is not something I would recommend – especially for a team that is already a little thin on the back end.

That's just it Doc. As I said, being vindictive and trading Letang is a jilted fan move, not one I would expect from a seasoned vet. As you said, if someone would make you an offer for Letang that you can't turn down, yeah you trade him. But trading him for say a 3rd D-man and a 2nd rd pick is ludicrous. The Pirates give up assets like that for such a low return, the Pens don't.

You just hope and pray that this was an aberration and not the new normal. Now one thing I can see is making Schultz your top Dman on the PP because with his shot, and his penchant to shoot, it makes sense. Letang even though better on entries, just causes the defense to be able to shrink their box and make it harder on the Pens down low because of his reluctance to shoot. Other than that, I would expect Letang to return to full capacity.
 
I think I told this story before, but I know a guy who was working out at the Pens complex in Cranberry, working on their cable system I think. He was there one day as the players were heading down the hall for the locker room, and he just missed Fleury going through the door. He told one of the workers there how disappointed he was because Fleury was his kid's favorite player and he would have like to get his autograph.
The worker said, hey just wait here a second, and he went into the locker room. A minute later, out comes Fleury, all smiles in his sweaty T-shirt, shaking hands and having like a ten minute chat with him. He signs for each of his kids with a personal note, and poses with the guy for some phone photos!
Go find me another professional athlete who would go out of his way to honor some "schmuck" he doesn't know from Adam! This guy is no phony, he is truly a great person, and his parents certainly did a great job raising him!
 
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I truly believe your last sentence is the crux of the situation here. Letang did not have the opportunity to properly prepare for this season in his usual manner. Ya think that might have contributed significantly to his relatively poor season?
I won't judge him until he has the opportunity to get back to his normal routine in the off season and see how he looks next season. My guess is this year was an aberration and the better Letang will emerge.

Secondly, I think a lot of people misunderstand what kind of player/defenseman he is when he is on his game. He is more a Paul Coffey type of defenseman than an Ulf Samuelson type of defenseman. His game is to move the puck out of the zone, get the transition going by passing or skating the puck forward. He has the speed to do that, not Coffey speed, but enough when on his game. He also is the quarterback of the power play, he is a good passer and knows when to join the rush. He is NOT a stay at home defenseman by any stretch.

To be totally effective, he needs a partner who IS. That is the key to improving the Pens defense, A health Letang and an effective pairing. That is a pretty darn good first pairing.

Now, you have to work down the line to the next two pairings. Ollie Matta is A-ok as one of those, you need three more effective guys, and the final two need to be stay at home bulls.

Finally you need a consistent backstop and a good backup for him. Give me that, and I'm sure they'll be right back in the discussion for another cup. This year's disappointment should fuel these guys desire to do it again. I wouldn't bet that they won't.

Agree FP. I was shocked when he started the season. All accounts in last offseason he wouldn't be ready until December. Maybe he did rush it. We all played enough sports to know if something is bothering you or not completely right, not just physically but mentally it affects you.

If Letang comes back to form, man with Dumo, Letang, Schultz and Matta, that is a pretty nice 4 some. Oleksiak really showed alot, can skate really well for a big guy. Rowedhul was not that bad, but better served as a 7th guy in your rotation. Hunwick was a trainwreck and I am sure they will try to move. So I imagine either through FA or trade, Rutherford will look for an Ian Cole type of bottom pairing Dman.

As for this year and losing, it is funny. Going into last year's playoffs, I thought without Letang, no way will they win it all, and come 2017-18 season, they will be the favorites to win the Cup. But they won anyways. And coming into this season, I thought the slam dunk favorite in the East was......Tampa. Even though Letang was coming back as an add to this team. I just thought back to back Cup runs were too much to overcome, 3 straight finals appearances, let alone Cups, never has happened in the current 4 series/ 7 game format. So I think this maybe a nice reset button. But the window is starting to close. Many teams in the East are rising.
 
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I think I told this story before, but I know a guy who was working out at the Pens complex in Cranberry, working on their cable system I think. He was there one day as the players were heading down the hall for the locker room, and he just missed Fleury going through the door. He told one of the workers there how disappointed he was because Fleury was his kid's favorite player and he would have like to get his autograph.
The worker said, hey just wait here a second, and he went into the locker room. A minute later, out comes Fleury, all smiles in his sweaty T-shirt, shaking hands and having like a ten minute chat with him. He signs for each of his kids with a personal note, and poses with the guy for some phone photos!
Go find me another professional athlete who would go out of his way to honor some "schmuck" he doesn't know from Adam! This guy is no phony, he is truly a great person, and his parents certainly did a great job raising him!

No doubt. Here's another thought.......while it sucks the Pens had to give him up in the Expansion draft, I am not sure where he stood on the Hall of Fame candidacy. I think this year, and likely the next few now, MAF piling up more wins as the primary is going to make him a slam dunk HOF selection now. Which with Fleury in 2002, Geno in 2004 and Sid in 2005, all 1st ballot HOFers with those picks, no wonder why this team has won 3 cups in this span.
 
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