Been making an ass of myself on these boards for 22 years!!
Arkansas Pine Bluff & Other Dribbles ...
- Thread starter DT_PITT
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For some reason while reading the Basketball Board a few days ago, I was reminded of Harve74 ....... I miss the big guy's posts on here !
I felt sad to post what I did earlier about the "think tank." He was quite proud to be a part of the board when it was that good (in the early 2000's).
Like I said, he would have loved this thread.
Now there's a thought. If they were, they disguised it pretty well.
You don't see it used all that much. It's very effective
if you can get your players to execute it. A major purpose of
it is to confuse the opposition, in that maybe they can't figure
out if they're facing a zone or a man D.
From my experience you have to have 2 guards or perimeter players that are both playing well enough in the same game so that the other team can’t do a match up zone as easily. They would most likely have to do a triangle and 2 match up zone which I think is fairly easy to beat.
I am trying something new today. We are playing the best team in our league and I am missing 3 guards so I have less quickness. We are running a 3-2 circle motion.
It is simple for my players because they each have only a few priority actions to look for. But there is a lot of guard movement and screens set high off the ball. No screens set for the player with the ball because that makes it easy for the other team to trap the guy with the ball. All screens are off ball.
My players sitting out yesterday at practice learning said I am confused I don’t know what to watch. That was what I was hoping for. Cause confusion for defense. That’s the only ways I know how to beat a zone. Then when one zone defender gets out of position we attack. If you know Art of War by Sun Tzu you always attack where the opposition is weak.
My favorite threads are just talking basketball strategy. Not so I can look like a know it all. But I love to learn and I love any feedback on an idea I throw out. I do coaching for free and just because I like to help kids. So any feedback benefits my players.
Didn't see a second or a highlight of the game and I hate "box score surfing"......but seeing that we played a zone team and a big goosegg for Trey and 5-13 from the floor for X does not give me much confidence going forward that things will be much different this year.
Ok, you want to go with the circle offense. I'm assuming you're using
it against a Man D. I think it's a good idea, especially since you're
missing three guards. There's a lot of passing and cutting in this offense,
and if you can get the defense out of whack, you should get some
shots in the lane off feeds. The lane is usually open when you're
using a circle motion offense.I'm assuming you've practiced this before
you use it in a game.
If you're using it against a zone, I don't know what to say except
Good Luck! LOL. It can be done, but it's something you really have
to work on IMO.
We've talked quite a bit about zones the last few days. I know you
know what to do if you see a zone. Get the zone to move, and as you
said, "attack." I would agree....make sure it's those gaps that you're
attacking.
Their D at times reminded of a D that I saw from a weird coach in a millvale catholic league.
It began as a 1 1 3 essentially and depending on where the pg passes the ball dictated what side the 1 on D shifted.
Because it was essentially a disguised 2-3 matchup.
I'd have to watch the game and it see if that's what they did at times.
It began as a 1 1 3 essentially and depending on where the pg passes the ball dictated what side the 1 on D shifted.
Because it was essentially a disguised 2-3 matchup.
I'd have to watch the game and it see if that's what they did at times.
That's not the dreaded 3-4-3 amoeba defense is it?
I haven't gone back and looked at it, but the way it's being discussed
here makes me think it could be a match up. That's exactly what it's
supposed to do...cause confusion. Is it man, is it zone...what is it?
If it's causing that kind of confusion here and we have the advantage
to look at the film, imagine in real time under pressure what a coach
is trying to figure out from the bench as to what to do against it.
here makes me think it could be a match up. That's exactly what it's
supposed to do...cause confusion. Is it man, is it zone...what is it?
If it's causing that kind of confusion here and we have the advantage
to look at the film, imagine in real time under pressure what a coach
is trying to figure out from the bench as to what to do against it.
We clobbered the first team because the circle motion got our post players a ton of easy seal, turn, and easy shots. We just learned it yersterday. So we weren’t great at executing the cutting guards and my 4 struggled setting a quick screen and slipping to the wide open middle.
What I learned today:
1) Players can remember and execute the 1st actions quickly on a new play like my guys in the post.
2) But after the circle goes around once, they aren’t processing the next actions and where and when to go quick enough.
3) In a very competitive high paced game, their thinking is too delayed to remember the little things like staying tight off the screen for a curl, screener popping up after setting the screen instead of slipping to basket, fake a pass to make a pass, going to the ball when it’s being passed to you on the wing and just remembering that everyone has to be watching the ball movemenr in the offense and moving in the circle at the same time.
4) We are sticking with the circle motion but we have to do all the little things right in the early actions.
5) For the playoffs we have coming up, we need to learn when to not throw it to the post and how to get the curls and cuts in the middle of the lane quicker and the guy more open. I also have to throw in a few different set ups so it doesn’t look the exact same. Like starting with both posts stacked on one side instead of on opposite blocks.
I was a teacher and principal for 20 years with a lot of training on teaching and giving feedback that meet the learning styles of all kids. I know there has to be frequent opportunities for practice, corrective feedback, and learning in this case during the gane situation. Keeping this in mind, I think if I have most of the same kids for the next 3 years and we don’t abandon this system they will have the time to be really good and tough.
After watching Pitt football right after my second game which we couldn’t pull out a win and reading the crap on the football boards, I appreciate anyone who made it through this long post. This helped me think about my games today. But also get my mind off of Mark Whipple.
Well I'm glad your circle motion worked for you today. You seem to believe in
it, so stick with it. I've always believed there's a lot of different schemes a
coach can use. Find the one you like and fits your players, and then go with it. The more you practice it, the more the players will execute it the way you
want. It's not the scheme, it's the execution IMO.
The only question I have is....What D did the other team play against your motion
offense?
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Mostly man to man. When they tried zone and we ran circle motion well they were distracted by all the movement in the offense and defensive players were leaving their zone.
The team that played us played a mix of both. They had a lot of size. Taller guards than us. So they made it tougher for our guards to make good passes and throw into the post.
Surprisingly, neither team ever even tried to double the post guy we had. And we went into that post player a ton with great success.
Looks like a loosely organized 2-3 match up zone to me. Lack of structure makes it seem exotic.
While you didn't actually say the words "quid pro quo", it certainly sounded like you expected quid pro quo.
And....I did end with a ?
Drew
I saw this late but it made me laugh. I played my first basketball in 4th grade as the second guy in that T defense at that school. I sent your post to my old coach and he laughed and said "Yes that was my D smart guy most of the coachs who we played had no clue!'
I saw this late but it made me laugh. I played my first basketball in 4th grade as the second guy in that T defense at that school. I sent your post to my old coach and he laughed and said "Yes that was my D smart guy most of the coachs who we played had no clue!'
This is almost definitely ameoba! The unlv/Pitt way was to run that but then not try to trap until a player dribbled. If they merely caught the ball, the defense would stay still. I wonder how well it would work in this era of three point shooting.
Whatever defense Pitt plays, we are not getting what we should be getting from our defense. As athletic as we are, there should be more forced turnovers.
I was commenting on a 1980s Millvale Catholic league basketball amoeba defense, not Pitt's current defense.
Yes, we are athletic. However when you get right down to it, so are
many of the other teams we play. Even some of the lesser teams have
good athletes. Creating turnovers isn't as easy as it looks. Take a look
at us when we press...the other teams can beat it easily. Its not because
they're better athletes, it's because they're schooled and drilled in it.
If you have a good or exceptional ball handler, as we do in X, pressing
us is difficult. When he turns it over (and he does a lot) it's usually because
he tries to do too much, not because he's a good or bad athlete. Here's
another example...Toney is IMO one hell of an athlete, however we're not
going to see him create turnovers. Hell if it came down to being an
athlete he'd be a decent shooter. It comes down to more than athleticism.
Athleticism is one thing, skill is another. Some athletes are skilled, some
are not, and obviously some non athletes are skilled.
Toney, McGowens and Johnson are not just athletic, they are excellent defensive players. They should be picking up a lot of loss change. You don't have to press to cause turnovers. Turnovers can and are created in aggressive half court defense.
Problem is X, Trey, and Toney do not anticipate well or do the things you need to on defense like cutting off the defender with footwork instead of their hands, denying with the off hand, squeezing when a player drives to help and then getting back out. They are also overall aggressive which leads to fouls and low percentage tries for steaks and blocks. Leading to easy baskets for the other team and fouls on the guys you mentioned of our other players who have to play help defense to make up for mistakes.
Being athletic and quick and tall and all that stuff is great but without knowing what to do and being disciplined it doesn’t matter.
I have been thinking and thinking and I really don’t know what can be done offensively or defensively. Murphy seems to be a high motor gritty guy but the last game he got out of position and didn’t recover and gave up 3 point shots.
We just aren’t a zone team. At least not until we add another experienced grad transfer guard or our coaching and preparation improve. Experience helps but it also can further cement poor habits. I guess we could try man up top and zone low. Like a triangle and 2 because we have a few shot blockers.
I think maybe spacing out and playing 4 out or even 5 out might be our best bet. Try to make it a 2 person game. Like X and Champagne screening, rolling, passing and cutting. But I would stop that by packing the lane or a 2-1-2 zone which would stop all that.
With such poor 3 point shooting, the other teams defense doesn’t have to guard much space which takes away a ton of options and makes it easy to collapse on the driver and set up for charges. Which is exactly what we are doing and it is killing us offensively. Specifically X.
If we try and force more turnovers with our guards X and Trey will be sitting 5 minutes into each game with 2 fouls each.
I certainly agree with the first part about being very athletic, and I like what
you said about "picking up loose change." I also agree that you don't have
to press to cause turnovers. A lot of the players don't make turnovers, I don't
care how good the athleticism is, and I don't care how good the defense is.
Now, that doesn't mean they can't be stopped from scoring. If that was
what you were saying I'd agree. Creating em is hard, and decent players
don't just turn it over because they're facing athletic and excellent
defensive players. Just my take on it.
Well don't think too hard (just kidding). Defensively I think it's more a case of
focus than it is skill or athleticism. This is especially true with X.
As far as offense, I tend to agree with what you're saying. A few days ago
you were talking about a motion offense. If you think about it, it would IMO
help solve the offensive problems about which you're talking. It's a good
way to open the lane up for drives. I like it because of the constant
motion that gets all five players involved (something we DO NOT do).
Stopping it with a zone as you mentioned,....no big deal. Just go
with basic offensive concepts against a zone....overload, triangle, cutter
through to the weakside, high/low post etc. etc.
I know you know this stuff.
I still think Motion and Horns would be our best bet. There are a lot of similarities and it wouldn’t be too much for a young team to run. But it also doesn’t allow for much spacing because the bigs aren’t ususally out and someone is always curling or cutting.
The triangle is great but really hard to teach correctly and requires a high basketball team IQ. But it does a great job of keeping good spacing and leading to open shots while minimizing players dribbling.
A lot of guys on this board seem to know the Xs and Os. I don't. I do know that at the beginning of last season we really seemed in your face with man defense. I was very encouraged. I had gotten sick of sagging man to man.
Then..at some point that changed and we began to play the style of defense we are playing now. Token press to take time off clock, passive man or zone trying to not give up anything cheap. I liked the defense Dixon played against Colorado in tourney or how we started out last year a lot better, Do we ever jump the passing lanes or double team? Playing the style we do, we don't get even half the loose balls we should.
Through the first 13 games of last season we were generating 17.7 turnovers a game. This year it is right at 15. That may not seem much, but every possession matters.
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Well don't sell yourself short. I read your posts and I like them.
Your suggestions about double teaming and passing lanes are
accurate. The only thing I'll add is that at this level the guy who is
getting double teamed goes up against that over and over in
practice and is drilled on what to do against it. Remember, every
time you double team you are exposing yourself because the
offense now has four players against your three, essentially a
4 on 3. Good players are drilled on sensing a double team
and take advantage of it. This does't mean a double team can't
work. Hell our guards have been taken advantage of this year
by exactly what you're talking about.
Jumping passing lines, I agree with you.In fact I like all types of
overplay on the defensive end. However same as above, good
players now how to take advantage of a team jumping those
passing lanes.....one way to do it is knowing how to go back
door.
Anyway, good thoughts Gary. Personally I think we need
more focus, less one on one, while still being aggressive
as you're suggesting.
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The triangle I was suggesting was against a zone..... a triangle on
the side against a zone. Are we talking about the same thing?
A triangle the way I just described is pretty easy to teach. Maybe
I misunderstood what you were saying?
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