Art Rooney II is the new Bob Nutting??

[TheChair]

Appreciate the response Chair because your opinions provide context to your opinion of Tomlin as an excellent coach. Given those guys are equivalent to Tomlin, it’s appropriate that you also rate them. Now when you say Tomlin is excellent, we know that you have a tendency to over inflate things. Can you do my next 5 performance reviews? .

As far as the last let if you’re post, what I asked was who has inherited a super bowl roster and a HOf QB in his prime. Payton hasn’t it. And I don’t think McCarthy did either. McCarthy took over 2 struggling franchises while Tomlin took over 0. So Tomlin’s record should Trump his and it doesn’t.

Now, I do credit Tomlin for taking over a super bowl team and winning. Not everyone can manage the egos as a new coach and do that. He did. He should be recognized for it. It’s just not as impressive as taking over a bad team and building it into a winner.

McCarthy inherited both Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. He had okay QBs to start.

The Packers were 4-12 the year before McCarthy took over. Even with Brett Favre. The prior 5 years, they were 10-6, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4 and 9-7. He did not inherit a struggling franchise. He inherited a team off one bad year where they had a lot of injuries the prior season.

Payton's first year, they signed Brees before the year. So, he was pretty stacked at QB from the start. I did not include it in inherited because it was a signing. But, he started with Brees, which is a very solid advantage.

By the way, both Favre and Brees were better players than Ben was when Tomlin took over (as in, they both were better players at that particular career point than Ben during their first years under the new regime).

As far as your next career review, if you are as good as someone that is 16th All-Time (like Tomlin is with NFL wins) at something (out of a pool of probably like over a thousand guys) where you have always been consistent, won huge games and dealt with a great deal of adversity along the way, I would probably give you a good review. I would guess that you are not top 2% rare in what you do though, so I mean, it is just not a fair comparison in all likelihood.

 

[TheChair]

I know Rodgers sat the bench behind an aging Favre who had played terrible in the previous 2 years of Rodgers starting. But, this graphic shows Ben to be very much in the conversation with Rodgers.


Rodgers supposedly a nightmare for McCarthy.

How many MVPs does Ben have? How many does Rodgers have? Has Ben ever been thought to being the best QB in the game even when Tom Brady has been around (let alone Peyton Manning)?

Ben is a great player and he won a lot of games on some very good teams (with two really, really good coaches). He elevated guys and made them better consistently. But, no one out there thinks he is Rodgers' class. Just like no one thinks Phil Simms is Dan Marino's class though Simms won a ton of games, a Super Bowl or two and was a really good player. Roethlisberger is closer to Rodgers than Simms is to Marino, but the point is the the point.

They are both HOF players. But, I would think that you would be hard pressed to find a talent evaluator or head coach that thinks Ben is better than Rodgers (except for Ben's head coaches, maybe as I doubt Cowher would say that).

 

[Pitt79]

Now post their total NFL MVP awards.

Actually, going to more Super Bowls, winning more Super Bowls and playoff games and leading twice as many 4th quarter comebacks is better than MVP Awards.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

McCarthy inherited both Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. He had okay QBs to start.

The Packers were 4-12 the year before McCarthy took over. Even with Brett Favre. The prior 5 years, they were 10-6, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4 and 9-7. He did not inherit a struggling franchise. He inherited a team off one bad year where they had a lot of injuries the prior season.

Payton's first year, they signed Brees before the year. So, he was pretty stacked at QB from the start. I did not include it in inherited because it was a signing. But, he started with Brees, which is a very solid advantage.

By the way, both Favre and Brees were better players than Ben was when Tomlin took over (as in, they both were better players at that particular career point than Ben during their first years under the new regime).

As far as your next career review, if you are as good as someone that is 16th All-Time (like Tomlin is with NFL wins) at something (out of a pool of probably like over a thousand guys) where you have always been consistent, won huge games and dealt with a great deal of adversity along the way, I would probably give you a good review. I would guess that you are not top 2% rare in what you do though, so I mean, it is just not a fair comparison in all likelihood.

So to wrap things up, we agree that Tomlin, Payton and McCarthy at this point in their careers are all incredibly similar to each other. Although you rate Tomlin and Payton a shade higher. I can see that and get what you’re saying, I just won’t say they’re excellent. You gotta leave some room for when they actually do achieve excellence. There’s plenty of room for all 3 to take their careers to another level.

 

[Pitt79]

How many MVPs does Ben have? How many does Rodgers have? Has Ben ever been thought to being the best QB in the game even when Tom Brady has been around (let alone Peyton Manning)?

Ben is a great player and he won a lot of games on some very good teams (with two really, really good coaches). He elevated guys and made them better consistently. But, no one out there thinks he is Rodgers' class. Just like no one thinks Phil Simms is Dan Marino's class though Simms won a ton of games, a Super Bowl or two and was a really good player. Roethlisberger is closer to Rodgers than Simms is to Marino, but the point is the the point.

They are both HOF players. But, I would think that you would be hard pressed to find a talent evaluator or head coach that thinks Ben is better than Rodgers (except for Ben's head coaches, maybe as I doubt Cowher would say that).

"Talent Evaluator"? So, it's the same kind of thinking as to why Bama should be always in the playoffs, MORE TALENT. I guess it's good the NFL doesn't have a committee to pick 4 teams, maybe Rodgers would of done better that way. This is my favorite stat in the Ben vs. Rodgers debate, has to do with WINNING actual games on the field...

4th Quarter Comebacks All Time

1. Brady 46
2. Payton Manning 43
3. Ben 41
18. Andy Dalton 25
18. Ryan Tannehill 25
28. Aaron Rodgers 21

 

[TheChair]

"Talent Evaluator"? So, it's the same kind of thinking as to why Bama should be always in the playoffs, MORE TALENT. I guess it's good the NFL doesn't have a committee to pick 4 teams, maybe Rodgers would of done better that way. This is my favorite stat in the Ben vs. Rodgers debate, has to do with WINNING actual games on the field...

4th Quarter Comebacks All Time

1. Brady 46
2. Payton Manning 43
3. Ben 41
18. Andy Dalton 25
18. Ryan Tannehill 25
28. Aaron Rodgers 21

Rodgers and Ben have almost exact winning percentages at this point (Ben is a touch ahead, literally 1 percent). They are close in wins too. That said, I find it hard to penalize someone if his teams get up and stay up when they win.

 

[CJsE]

Actually, going to more Super Bowls, winning more Super Bowls and playoff games and leading twice as many 4th quarter comebacks is better than MVP Awards.

Aaron Rodgers was the best player in the league 4 times, Ben never received a single vote.
Aaron Rodgers had 10 seasons with 450 pass attempts and single digits interceptions, Ben did it once.
You don't need 4th quarter comebacks when you're leading the in the 4th most games. Ben's winning percentage is 66.8% and Rodgers is 65.9%, that's a 2 win swing for either player.

As far as Super Bowls, is anyone arguing that Ben is the reason for their Super Bowls? His passing offense was in the bottom half of the league both seasons that the Steelers won. He did enough to not lose games on the back of a defense that allowed 14 points or fewer 18 times in 39 games over those two seasons.

As far as your Super Bowl metric being more important than MVPs, If you were a NFL GM would you take a rookie Ben or Rodgers? Nick Foles or Dan Marino? Terry Bradshaw or Peyton Manning?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You lost me at where you said he was "dumb."

I guess Bill Parcells was dumb in 1990 when he rode Otis Anderson and that defense to Super Bowl win.

I guess Brian Billick was dumb too back in 2000 back when he rode Jamal Lewis and that defense to a super bowl win.

I guess Chuck Noll was dumb too for his 1st 2 super bowls when we saw Rocky and Franco lead the team and lean on the defense..

I guess Joe Gibbs was dumb for riding John Riggins to a Super Bowl win. Theisman threw for 13 TD's that year.

Whoa......most of those, running dominated 60/40 or better then. The game is different now.

 

[Pitt79]

Aaron Rodgers was the best player in the league 4 times, Ben never received a single vote.
Aaron Rodgers had 10 seasons with 450 pass attempts and single digits interceptions, Ben did it once.
You don't need 4th quarter comebacks when you're leading the in the 4th most games. Ben's winning percentage is 66.8% and Rodgers is 65.9%, that's a 2 win swing for either player.

As far as Super Bowls, is anyone arguing that Ben is the reason for their Super Bowls? His passing offense was in the bottom half of the league both seasons that the Steelers won. He did enough to not lose games on the back of a defense that allowed 14 points or fewer 18 times in 39 games over those two seasons.

As far as your Super Bowl metric being more important than MVPs, If you were a NFL GM would you take a rookie Ben or Rodgers? Nick Foles or Dan Marino? Terry Bradshaw or Peyton Manning?

In both those Super Bowl runs Ben carried them by passing. The 3 playoff games on the road in 2005 where all Ben building big leads in the first half, and he even made the game saving tackle in one of the games. In Super Bowl XLIII he led an 80-yard game winning drive in 2:46. So without him in 2005, they don't get into the Super Bowl at all, 2008, they probably lose the game without his comeback drive after the defense failed to protect the lead. I'd take Ben over Rodgers, he's accomplished more.

 

[PittPanther44]

No, you seem to be moving the goalpost Chuckie.

Tomlin took over a roster led by a HOF QB entering his prime.
Troy HOF
Harrison HOF finalist
Hines HOF Finalist
Heath
Pouncey
Faneca HOF
Hampton All Pro
Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel
James Farrior
Larry Foote
It wasn't a bare cupboard now was it??

No…but they were however 8-8 the year before.

I’m not doubting it wasn’t a great situation.

But people that do the “Cowhers players” thing usually forget that AND misremember who played for whom.

For example, in your list Pouncey didn’t come in until 4 years after BC retired. Harrison became the guy we know under Tomlin. Primarily a teams player prior.

Lots of the players on the ‘08 and ‘10 teams were post Cowher.

But ultimately I always thought it’s a weird label since we are talking coaching not front office.

 

[PittPanther44]

"Talent Evaluator"? So, it's the same kind of thinking as to why Bama should be always in the playoffs, MORE TALENT. I guess it's good the NFL doesn't have a committee to pick 4 teams, maybe Rodgers would of done better that way. This is my favorite stat in the Ben vs. Rodgers debate, has to do with WINNING actual games on the field...

4th Quarter Comebacks All Time

1. Brady 46
2. Payton Manning 43
3. Ben 41
18. Andy Dalton 25
18. Ryan Tannehill 25
28. Aaron Rodgers 21

In fairness, Rodgers probably threw them to 3 score leads more often and didn’t need the comebacks as much.

But yeah, I still take prime Ben with the game on the line because of play making ability when the script isn’t there.

 

[CJsE]

In both those Super Bowl runs Ben carried them by passing. The 3 playoff games on the road in 2005 where all Ben building big leads in the first half, and he even made the game saving tackle in one of the games. In Super Bowl XLIII he led an 80-yard game winning drive in 2:46. So without him in 2005, they don't get into the Super Bowl at all, 2008, they probably lose the game without his comeback drive after the defense failed to protect the lead. I'd take Ben over Rodgers, he's accomplished more.

His first Super Bow win he went 9-21 with 123 yards and 2 Interceptions. He had the lowest QB rating for a winning team in Super Bowl history and one of the worst overall Super Bowl performances. The 2nd worst winning QB is almost double his rating.

His 2nd win he did a lot better against the 28th best Passing Defense in the NFL that McNab torched for almost 400 yards and 3TDs in the previous game. But Ben threw for 3 total TDs that entire playoff run.

Like I said, Ben did great early in his career of not losing games. Don’t get me wrong, Ben is a legend and is a HOF qb, but he’s not on the level of Manning, Rodgers, or Brady.

 

[Burgh15]

Like I said, Ben did great early in his career of not losing games. Don’t get me wrong, Ben is a legend and is a HOF qb, but he’s not on the level of Manning, Rodgers, or Brady.

Rodgers isn't on the level of Manning or Brady either...

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

No…but they were however 8-8 the year before.

I’m not doubting it wasn’t a great situation.

But people that do the “Cowhers players” thing usually forget that AND misremember who played for whom.

For example, in your list Pouncey didn’t come in until 4 years after BC retired. Harrison became the guy we know under Tomlin. Primarily a teams player prior.

Lots of the players on the ‘08 and ‘10 teams were post Cowher.

But ultimately I always thought it’s a weird label since we are talking coaching not front office.

OK. Jeff Hartings and Joey Porter. There, make it any better?

 

[Fk_Pitt]

In other news Tomlin’s coaching doppelgänger, Mike McCarthy, drew the short end of the stick this weekend. His Cowboys had to play Monday night and now have to play at the 49ers who played Saturday and have two additional days rest.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Whoa......most of those, running dominated 60/40 or better then. The game is different now.

For sure. That's why Cowher was relevant to his peers like the Parcells, Gibbs, etc..

Lots of the players on the ‘08 and ‘10 teams were post Cowher.

But ultimately I always thought it’s a weird label since we are talking coaching not front office.

Cowher gave Tomlin these starters in for his 2008 title team

QB - Ben - HOF
RB - Parker
WR - Ward - Potential HOF
WR - Holmes - Super Bowl MVP
WR - Washington
TE - Miller - Pro Bowler
OL - Starks
OL - Kemoteau
OL - Colon

DE - Smith - Pro Bowler x1
NT - Hampton - Pro Bowler
DE - Keisel - Pro Bowler x1
OLB - Harrison - Defensive MVP
ILB - Foote
ILB - Farrior - Pro Bowler x2
CB - Taylor
CB - McFadden
SS - Polamalu - HOF

DC - LeBeau - HOF

Tomlin added

C - Justin Hartwig
G - Darnell Stapleton
LB - Woodley - Pro Bowler x1
FS - Clark - Pro Bowler x 1


In terms of front office. The Rooney's fired Donahue because he and Cowher didn't see eye on eye on personnel. In terms of acquiring talent, Cowher's influence over his roster was increased big time.

2010 Super Bowl Loss team - Cowher's players
QB - Ben
WR - Ward
TE - Miller
OL - Kemoateau


DL - Hampton
DL - Keisel
LB - Harrison
LB - Farrior
CB - McFadden
CB - Taylor
SS - Polomalu

DC - Dick LeBeau

Tomlin added -

RB - Mendenhall
WR - Wallace
OL - Jon Scott
OL - Pouncey
OL - Foster
OL - Adams

DL - Ziggy Hood
LB - Woodley
LB - Timmons
FS - Clark

The best players and core of the 2010 we're still Cowher's guys in Ben, Ward, Troy, Harrison, etc..

 

[Pitt79]

In fairness, Rodgers probably threw them to 3 score leads more often and didn’t need the comebacks as much.

But yeah, I still take prime Ben with the game on the line because of play making ability when the script isn’t there.

Please provide a link that proves that Rodgers built all those leads, I'm always asked to provide proof. And Brady and Peyton must have sucked at building those 3 score leads since they had to come from behind so often?

Here's the proof on the comebacks. and not even PRIME Ben, Last year's Ben led the league.

NFL Fourth Quarter Comebacks Career Leaders (since 1950) | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Tom Brady (46), 2. Peyton Manning (43), 3. Ben Roethlisberger (41), 4. Matt Ryan (38), 5. Drew Brees (36),

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[Pitt79]

His first Super Bow win he went 9-21 with 123 yards and 2 Interceptions. He had the lowest QB rating for a winning team in Super Bowl history and one of the worst overall Super Bowl performances. The 2nd worst winning QB is almost double his rating.

True, but without him carrying them the previous 3 road playoff games they aren't even there. They're watching on TV.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Ben's 2008 Super Bowl win with that OL and lack of a running game was one of the more impressive then anything I've seen Rodgers do and I'm a big Rodgers fan. To produce with that OL means you'd have to be mobile and ridiculously tough because you were going to get hit - often. Kind of what we saw Ben do.

 

[CJsE]

Here's the proof on the comebacks. and not even PRIME Ben, Last year's Ben led the league.

NFL Fourth Quarter Comebacks Career Leaders (since 1950) | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Tom Brady (46), 2. Peyton Manning (43), 3. Ben Roethlisberger (41), 4. Matt Ryan (38), 5. Drew Brees (36),

www.pro-football-reference.com

Ben is arguably the greatest clutch QB of all time, but last year the Steelers won 9 games and had the 21st best scoring offense? And you still don't think that maybe playing with an average or below average offense lends itself to more 4th quarter comeback opportunities? Tom Brady has played in 34% more games than Roethlisberger and 45% more games than Rodgers, which is likely why he is so high on the list.

I don't have proof that Rodgers built all of those leads, but here are a few stats.

-From the 1st-3rd quarter Rodgers has a 361/71 TD ratio, while Ben has a 298/148 ratio, so it's probably a pretty safe bet that there was less need for Rodgers to perform a 4th quarter comeback.

-When trailing under 4 minutes, Ben has run 604 plays with an 85.3 QB rating. Rodgers has run 435 plays with a 82.8 QB Rating.

On another note during that PRIME Ben season in 2021, Rodgers won MVP and threw 37 TDs to 4 INTs, which is both more TDs than Ben has ever thrown in a season and less interceptions than Ben has ever thrown in a season (except 2019 when he only played 2 games).

 

[HailToPitt725]

I see you comment and criticize people's posts. You obviously have something to say. So why not say it? Have some courage.

They know-it-all and are keeping it all to themselves!

 

[HailToPitt725]

You don't think Reid is on a different level from guys like Tomlin, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc.? I absolutely think he's a better coach.

I agree, but I think what’s interesting to keep in mind is that Reid likely didn’t elevate to that level in a lot of people’s heads until his 21st season as a head coach.

That’s why I can’t fathom firing a Super Bowl-winning head coach that has never had a losing season. Even Reid had a stretch of six straight seasons without a playoff win between his stints in Philadelphia and Kansas City. He was able to figure it out, and I believe Tomlin will as well as this young core develops.

 

[PittPharm2002]

OK. Jeff Hartings and Joey Porter. There, make it any better?

And that entire defense was turned over because they aged out- which is a big part of what limited our playoff potential

Now the team is a helluva lot younger and I think the best is ahead

That and Ben throwing plenty of picks

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Now the team is a helluva lot younger and I think the best is ahead

Except their defense is aging out a bit too.

For me, It still appears as a tough haul for this team to get where they want to be.

We gotta be able to score 30 points in games while stopping the other teams from scoring 30. We can address ILB in free agency and get a CB in the draft. But that doesn’t address the age of the DL. And it doesn’t help the offense get to 30pts per game either. This is why hiring a pedigreed OC is so critical in my opinion because they can get better on that side of the ball even before free agency and the draft.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Except their defense is aging out a bit too.

For me, It still appears as a tough haul for this team to get where they want to be.

We gotta be able to score 30 points in games while stopping the other teams from scoring 30. We can address ILB in free agency and get a CB in the draft. But that doesn’t address the age of the DL. And it doesn’t help the offense get to 30pts per game either. This is why hiring a pedigreed OC is so critical in my opinion because they can get better on that side of the ball even before free agency and the draft.

DL is old and needs some help
I stated that in another thread
Otherwise it’s young

 

[Pitt79]

Ben is arguably the greatest clutch QB of all time, but last year the Steelers won 9 games and had the 21st best scoring offense? And you still don't think that maybe playing with an average or below average offense lends itself to more 4th quarter comeback opportunities? Tom Brady has played in 34% more games than Roethlisberger and 45% more games than Rodgers, which is likely why he is so high on the list.

I don't have proof that Rodgers built all of those leads, but here are a few stats.

-From the 1st-3rd quarter Rodgers has a 361/71 TD ratio, while Ben has a 298/148 ratio, so it's probably a pretty safe bet that there was less need for Rodgers to perform a 4th quarter comeback.

-When trailing under 4 minutes, Ben has run 604 plays with an 85.3 QB rating. Rodgers has run 435 plays with a 82.8 QB Rating.

On another note during that PRIME Ben season in 2021, Rodgers won MVP and threw 37 TDs to 4 INTs, which is both more TDs than Ben has ever thrown in a season and less interceptions than Ben has ever thrown in a season (except 2019 when he only played 2 games).

He was 8-9 at the same age Ben was 9-7-1, he's 1-4 in the NFCCG, Ben 3-2 in the AFCCG. Rodgers won MVP, and then the Sup... oh wait? just won MVP, nothing in the post season. I guess he might be the QB version of Tomlin, Regular season winner, go home early. I'll give it to you, Rogers beats Ben in the Stats championship, Ben wins the Hardware championship.

 

[pittdan77]

How many MVPs does Ben have? How many does Rodgers have? Has Ben ever been thought to being the best QB in the game even when Tom Brady has been around (let alone Peyton Manning)?

So did Ben hold Tomlin back or did Tomlin hold Ben back? I'm going to say it was Tomlin because of how Pickett was handled this year. He was the best QB on the roster and they treated him like a #3 for all of the summer. Took the whole preseason and the first four games to eat his pride and make the change. Probably cost the club a playoff birth.

There is also some weird media thing with Rogers and Brady that always paints them as superstars even when they're not. Brady had roughly the same numbers this season as Ben's final year and according to what I read, Brady still has gas left in his tank while Ben was obviously washed up.

 

[pittdan77]

Except their defense is aging out a bit too.

For me, It still appears as a tough haul for this team to get where they want to be.

We gotta be able to score 30 points in games while stopping the other teams from scoring 30. We can address ILB in free agency and get a CB in the draft. But that doesn’t address the age of the DL. And it doesn’t help the offense get to 30pts per game either. This is why hiring a pedigreed OC is so critical in my opinion because they can get better on that side of the ball even before free agency and the draft.

The NFL is wild because there really isn't a huge difference in points allowed. Maybe five points per game across the league. If you give up less than 20 points per game, you should be in the conversation for a championship because your offense doesn't have to be spectacular. Just consistent.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

His first Super Bow win he went 9-21 with 123 yards and 2 Interceptions. He had the lowest QB rating for a winning team in Super Bowl history and one of the worst overall Super Bowl performances. The 2nd worst winning QB is almost double his rating.

His 2nd win he did a lot better against the 28th best Passing Defense in the NFL that McNab torched for almost 400 yards and 3TDs in the previous game. But Ben threw for 3 total TDs that entire playoff run.

Like I said, Ben did great early in his career of not losing games. Don’t get me wrong, Ben is a legend and is a HOF qb, but he’s not on the level of Manning, Rodgers, or Brady.

But Ben was money those first 3 playoff games, all on the road leading to the Super Bowl.

Cincy he was 14-19 208 yards, 3 TDs, 0 Picks 148.7 QBR
Indy he was 14-24 224 yards 2 TDs 1 Pick 95.5 QBR
Denver he was 21-29, 275 yards, 2 TDs 0 Picks, 124.4 QBR

Ben was not good in the Super Bowl. But Ben was 22, and the above 3 games, all on the road.

Ben was just not well liked in the media. And definitely alot of that was on him. We still here about "the catch", "the drive", Montana to Rice in the SB against Cincy,

But Ben's TD drive and throw to Santonio Holmes was better than ANY of those. Just guys named Montana and Elway had those. And for some reason, Aaron Rodgers is as big of an asshole than Ben was, but the media loves him.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

The NFL is wild because there really isn't a huge difference in points allowed. Maybe five points per game across the league. If you give up less than 20 points per game, you should be in the conversation for a championship because your offense doesn't have to be spectacular. Just consistent.

Very true. But oddly the best running teams in the league mostly missed the playoffs. If you look at the playoff teams, almost all of them are top passing teams. And the top running teams are sitting at home.

The teams with the best passing game and defense combo are the teams built to win in todays league.

It used to be that many of the top passing teams missed the playoffs because they were always playing from behind and had to throw the ball. Now teams are built by passing games first.

 

[PittPanther44]

For sure. That's why Cowher was relevant to his peers like the Parcells, Gibbs, etc..


Cowher gave Tomlin these starters in for his 2008 title team

QB - Ben - HOF
RB - Parker
WR - Ward - Potential HOF
WR - Holmes - Super Bowl MVP
WR - Washington
TE - Miller - Pro Bowler
OL - Starks
OL - Kemoteau
OL - Colon

DE - Smith - Pro Bowler x1
NT - Hampton - Pro Bowler
DE - Keisel - Pro Bowler x1
OLB - Harrison - Defensive MVP
ILB - Foote
ILB - Farrior - Pro Bowler x2
CB - Taylor
CB - McFadden
SS - Polamalu - HOF

DC - LeBeau - HOF

Tomlin added

C - Justin Hartwig
G - Darnell Stapleton
LB - Woodley - Pro Bowler x1
FS - Clark - Pro Bowler x 1


In terms of front office. The Rooney's fired Donahue because he and Cowher didn't see eye on eye on personnel. In terms of acquiring talent, Cowher's influence over his roster was increased big time.

2010 Super Bowl Loss team - Cowher's players
QB - Ben
WR - Ward
TE - Miller
OL - Kemoateau


DL - Hampton
DL - Keisel
LB - Harrison
LB - Farrior
CB - McFadden
CB - Taylor
SS - Polomalu

DC - Dick LeBeau

Tomlin added -

RB - Mendenhall
WR - Wallace
OL - Jon Scott
OL - Pouncey
OL - Foster
OL - Adams

DL - Ziggy Hood
LB - Woodley
LB - Timmons
FS - Clark

The best players and core of the 2010 we're still Cowher's guys in Ben, Ward, Troy, Harrison, etc..

Cowher didn’t “give Tomlin” anything. The players were from the organization. Sure, the HC has a voice in that.

But when it comes to coaching, the “Cowhers players” line is an empty comment that people use to try to show he was better than Tomlin. Nothing to do with coaching.

I’m not at all suggesting that he didn’t have a great situation. But that team was 8-8 with a 3rd year QB coming off a bad year. It wasn’t a slam dunk.

Plus…and I don’t this this has been mentioned…the NFL is designed to knock down good teams. Years of drafting lower. Years of harder schedules. More prime time road games (while this isn’t written, the Steelers always seemed to have them)

And yet…he continued winning. Continued turning the roster over. The Shazier/Bell/AB situations really compounded the fact that you have less room for error when drafting low. 2017 was a huge blown opportunity, but not career defining. The last few years had a roster with holes, cap hell, and an aging QB.

I think this team is reloading and will be title contenders in the next couple years. The key is if Kenny can legit play with the big AFC QBs.

 

[PittPanther44]

Please provide a link that proves that Rodgers built all those leads, I'm always asked to provide proof. And Brady and Peyton must have sucked at building those 3 score leads since they had to come from behind so often?

Here's the proof on the comebacks. and not even PRIME Ben, Last year's Ben led the league.

NFL Fourth Quarter Comebacks Career Leaders (since 1950) | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Tom Brady (46), 2. Peyton Manning (43), 3. Ben Roethlisberger (41), 4. Matt Ryan (38), 5. Drew Brees (36),

www.pro-football-reference.com

The proof is all the wins (without the comebacks). The supplemental proof are the yards, TDs, and minuscule INTs.

Again - I still take Ben. But Rodgers still has an elite record.

 

[CJsE]

He was 8-9 at the same age Ben was 9-7-1, he's 1-4 in the NFCCG, Ben 3-2 in the AFCCG. Rodgers won MVP, and then the Sup... oh wait? just won MVP, nothing in the post season. I guess he might be the QB version of Tomlin, Regular season winner, go home early. I'll give it to you, Rogers beats Ben in the Stats championship, Ben wins the Hardware championship.

Aaron Rodgers has a QBR of 100.1 with 45 Touchdowns to 13 Interceptions in the Playoffs. Ben has an 86.7 QBR with 36 TDs and 28 INTs. Rodgers is 11-10 in the playoffs, Ben is 13-10 in the playoffs. Five of Ben's wins his offense scored 21 points of fewer. That's only happened for Rodgers twice. Ben's had a Pro Bowl running back 8 times, Rodgers has had one twice.

Ben has had the superior supporting cast.

 

[TheChair]

So did Ben hold Tomlin back or did Tomlin hold Ben back? I'm going to say it was Tomlin because of how Pickett was handled this year. He was the best QB on the roster and they treated him like a #3 for all of the summer. Took the whole preseason and the first four games to eat his pride and make the change. Probably cost the club a playoff birth.

There is also some weird media thing with Rogers and Brady that always paints them as superstars even when they're not. Brady had roughly the same numbers this season as Ben's final year and according to what I read, Brady still has gas left in his tank while Ben was obviously washed up.

Brady’s numbers this year and Ben’s final year are solidly apart. I am not sure where you get that thought from.

I do not think it is a hold someone back argument per se as they did great together. You need a franchise QB and at least a really good coach.

If pressed on it, I would say that because they gave him all of the leeway possible, the Steelers’ limitations over time essentially were Ben’s limitations. They gave him the ball and let him do what he wanted after a point in time. They made the decision to ride fully with him, which I do not think was a mistake but I think he was a more volatile player in his prime than say Brady, Rodgers, Manning or Brees.

Ben was good enough to win a few Super Bowls with; he was plenty good. I don’t think he was consistent in that same systematic way that Brady was or that Manning was where they count on him to stay away from bad decisions mostly all of time.

Ben won them a ton of games but he also threw a few away too. All QBs do but he threw away more in all likelihood than Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers. He was great though, and I would sign up for another 17 years if he were 22 again.

With Pickett, he was a rookie and they eased him in. I have no problems with how they have handled him. I think they could have went to him the week that they replaced Trubisky because they had plenty of time to practice with the bye. I also think it may not have been a bad thing to wait a few more weeks and find him a drive a game or so to ease him in.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Of guys who have coached at least ten seasons John Madden is the all time leader in winning percentage. He's a little bit ahead of some guy named Lombardi. If you include people who didn't coach that many years he falls all the way to second, behind some guy named Guy Chamberlain, who coached so long ago that he spent two of his six years as a head coach with the Canton Bulldogs, and two more of them with the Frankford Yellow Jackets. And he's in the Hall of Fame too.

If you aren't going to put the coach with essentially the best winning percentage in the history of the game in the Hall of Fame, just who are you going to put in there? Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches of all time. If his teams go undefeated for the next TEN years his winning percentage still wouldn't be as high as Madden's.

Hey now, don't hold it against Guy Chamberlin that his players played with leather helmets.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Modern Day HOF Coaches with HOF QB's -

Paul Brown - Otto Graham

Modern day? Those guys were before I was born, and I'm pension eligible.

 

[Pitt79]

But Rodgers still has an elite record.

Except in Championship games 1-4.

 

[pittdan77]

Very true. But oddly the best running teams in the league mostly missed the playoffs. If you look at the playoff teams, almost all of them are top passing teams. And the top running teams are sitting at home.

I think that's because running teams generally score less points in the NFL. Plus the clock runs more so you're limiting the number of possessions. So if you're only scoring 20 points per game, the law of averages are going to catch up with you.

 

[pittdan77]

With Pickett, he was a rookie and they eased him in. I have no problems with how they have handled him. I think they could have went to him the week that they replaced Trubisky because they had plenty of time to practice with the bye.

Takes longer than a bye week to take over that position in the NFL.

 

[Pitt79]

I think that's because running teams generally score less points in the NFL. Plus the clock runs more so you're limiting the number of possessions. So if you're only scoring 20 points per game, the law of averages are going to catch up with you.

So then why are the Steelers, Pitt and Yinzer Nation obsessed with this losing formula?