At least 26 people murdered in Texas

[Saboteur]

I am convinced beyond all doubt that humans are the least of God's creatures.
26 people gunned down inside a Baptist Church. Countless wounded.
Calling this senseless is inadequate.

 

[Tony Zimmermans Dennys Adversary]

Another day, another tragedy in America. Disgusting.

 

[Black Panther]

Simple Math here.. Idiots + Guns = This Tragedy. If only we could keep guns out of the hands of Idiots.

 

[Franb]

Simple Math here.. Idiots + Guns = This Tragedy. If only we could keep guns out of the hands of Idiots.

America's response to these tragedies: "pray for the victims." So very effective.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Mass shooting in the USA. Must be a slow news day.

 

[ChazzMo]

if anyone would like a free download of a 21:40 minute video about worship place security, I'd be happy to share the link.

Chris Peak - is this something I can just post in this thread for people to view if they choose?

In 2008, two colleagues and I began developing a class to teach civilians to survive an active shooter situation. We've taught over 6,700 people in 190 classes since that time. We've had favorable write-up in the Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Tribune, and PoliceOne.com. The company which produced some of our material has a free video designed for houses of worship. Although all of the examples in the video are from a Christian tradition, it absolutely does not proselytize at all, and the ideas discussed are universal to any faith or tradition.

I'm not selling anything here - only trying to provide a resource and some information which may or may not be of use to anyone concerned about safety and security in a worship setting.

Is it OK for me to post the link?

 

[Black Panther]

America's response to these tragedies: "pray for the victims." So very effective.

I agree... We can pray all we want but it only goes so far.

 

[President Stache]

Like Jesus would have said, "Thou shall not kill, but thou shall burnish weapons that can in mass numbers"

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Like Jesus would have said, "Thou shall not kill, but thou shall burnish weapons that can in mass numbers"

I say this as a gun owner — we tolerate a truly astounding amount of bloodletting over what amounts to little more than a hobby.

 

[OhioPittFan]

Nothing will be done because it’s more important to be worried about political sides than actually look out for Americans and accomplish anything that might save lives in the future.

 

[Saboteur]

if anyone would like a free download of a 21:40 minute video about worship place security, I'd be happy to share the link.

Chris Peak - is this something I can just post in this thread for people to view if they choose?

In 2008, two colleagues and I began developing a class to teach civilians to survive an active shooter situation. We've taught over 6,700 people in 190 classes since that time. We've had favorable write-up in the Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Tribune, and PoliceOne.com. The company which produced some of our material has a free video designed for houses of worship. Although all of the examples in the video are from a Christian tradition, it absolutely does not proselytize at all, and the ideas discussed are universal to any faith or tradition.

I'm not selling anything here - only trying to provide a resource and some information which may or may not be of use to anyone concerned about safety and security in a worship setting.

Is it OK for me to post the link?

It can't hurt.

 

[Chris Peak]

if anyone would like a free download of a 21:40 minute video about worship place security, I'd be happy to share the link.

Chris Peak - is this something I can just post in this thread for people to view if they choose?

In 2008, two colleagues and I began developing a class to teach civilians to survive an active shooter situation. We've taught over 6,700 people in 190 classes since that time. We've had favorable write-up in the Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Tribune, and PoliceOne.com. The company which produced some of our material has a free video designed for houses of worship. Although all of the examples in the video are from a Christian tradition, it absolutely does not proselytize at all, and the ideas discussed are universal to any faith or tradition.

I'm not selling anything here - only trying to provide a resource and some information which may or may not be of use to anyone concerned about safety and security in a worship setting.

Is it OK for me to post the link?

You can post the link if you like.

Ordinarily, threads on topics like these would probably move to the Locker Room, but given that it's a major national news story, you guys can discuss it in this thread.

 

[ChazzMo]

You can post the link if you like.

Ordinarily, threads on topics like these would probably move to the Locker Room, but given that it's a major national news story, you guys can discuss it in this thread.

OK - thanks. Here's the link:
https://spaces.hightail.com/receive...8ed0-a82364ed7008/Ministry Security Video.wmv

 

[thebadby2]

Nothing will be done because it’s more important to be worried about political sides than actually look out for Americans and accomplish anything that might save lives in the future.

If they couldn’t get meaningful gun control done after Sandy Hook, it will never get done.

And like the poster above, I say this as a long gun owner, but there is absolutely no way an ordinary citizen should be able to legally purchase assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. Background checks aren’t enough, no matter how comprehensive it may be.

 

[passedout]

Gun control isnt the answer. If they took away every gun in America today, by the weekend someone would buy one on the black market or someone with access to a Makerbot would just make one. Stop reporting these in the news and instead report stories of how to recognize and help people with these types of thoughts/problems. Most mass murderers are paranoid, resentful and looking for revenge against certain people. They long for the success, power, fame, acceptance they've never attained in "their minds" -- whether shootings, or pressure cooker bombs, or poisoning food, it's their way of getting even, gaining the "respect" they crave ....and by reporting these events and giving them SO much attention, the media gives these killers the notoriety they crave, throwing gas on future "sparks".

 

[Saboteur]

Gun control isnt the answer. If they took away every gun in America today, by the weekend someone would buy one on the black market or someone with access to a Makerbot would just make one. Stop reporting these in the news and instead report stories of how to recognize and help people with these types of thoughts/problems. Most mass murderers are paranoid, resentful and looking for revenge against certain people. They long for the success, power, fame, acceptance they've never attained in "their minds" -- whether shootings, or pressure cooker bombs, or poisoning food, it's their way of getting even, gaining the "respect" they crave ....and by reporting these events and giving them SO much attention, the media gives these killers the notoriety they crave, throwing gas on future "sparks".

I think the video deals with responding to wack jobs carrying weapons in church.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

A relative of mine recently moved away from a small town outside of San Antonio after living there for three years. I was speaking with him today, and he said that the locals in the San Antonio area held the belief that they were invulnerable to such a horrific event because most of them carried firearms.

I wonder what those people are thinking today?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Nothing will be done because it’s more important to be worried about political sides than actually look out for Americans and accomplish anything that might save lives in the future.

If they couldn’t get meaningful gun control done after Sandy Hook, it will never get done.

And like the poster above, I say this as a long gun owner, but there is absolutely no way an ordinary citizen should be able to legally purchase assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. Background checks aren’t enough, no matter how comprehensive it may be.

I believe no one should own a gun until age 21. Once you hit 21, you can apply for a gun license, similar to a driver's license. You have to pass safety tests and most importantly not have any mental illness history. Similar to applying for a job, criminal background check and credit check must be run.

And give mandatory minimums for anyone caught with a black market gun.

This wouldn't stop all mass shootings. But maybe it would stop 1. Would that be enough?

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Gun control isnt the answer. If they took away every gun in America today, by the weekend someone would buy one on the black market or someone with access to a Makerbot would just make one. Stop reporting these in the news and instead report stories of how to recognize and help people with these types of thoughts/problems. Most mass murderers are paranoid, resentful and looking for revenge against certain people. They long for the success, power, fame, acceptance they've never attained in "their minds" -- whether shootings, or pressure cooker bombs, or poisoning food, it's their way of getting even, gaining the "respect" they crave ....and by reporting these events and giving them SO much attention, the media gives these killers the notoriety they crave, throwing gas on future "sparks".

And yet, the GOP recently rolled back regulations on people with mental disorders and instabilities getting guns.

Taking guns isn’t the answer, sure. Just like banning abortions makes no difference in the abortion rate and is a stupid plan meant only for political point scoring.

But, you can absolutely make it a more rigorous process to qualify to purchase a gun.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Nothing will be done because it’s more important to be worried about political sides than actually look out for Americans and accomplish anything that might save lives in the future.

If they couldn’t get meaningful gun control done after Sandy Hook, it will never get done.

And like the poster above, I say this as a long gun owner, but there is absolutely no way an ordinary citizen should be able to legally purchase assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. Background checks aren’t enough, no matter how comprehensive it may be.

I believe no one should own a gun until age 21. Once you hit 21, you can apply for a gun license, similar to a driver's license. You have to pass safety tests and most importantly not have any mental illness history. Similar to applying for a job, criminal background check and credit check must be run.

And give mandatory minimums for anyone caught with a black market gun.

This wouldn't stop all mass shootings. But maybe it would stop 1. Would that be enough?

Stopping something happening just once is only a concern if it involves terroristic acts carried out by non-white males.

 

[Swervin27]

Always identify exits, preferably secondary exits, get the F out of the "target area" and if there is mad rush, go to large structures to avoid getting trampled. Saw this in article after vegas incident.

Makes sense. Got to be tough to think clearly during this though. People that can keep their senses probably do best. I'd panic

 

[NCanton Panther]

A relative of mine recently moved away from a small town outside of San Antonio after living there for three years. I was speaking with him today, and he said that the locals in the San Antonio area held the belief that they were invulnerable to such a horrific event because most of them carried firearms.

I wonder what those people are thinking today?

Well, if none of the 26 that we’re killed today we’re carrying a firearm at the time, I think you can guess what they are now thinking.

And if I am understanding the reports correctly, the assailant ended up getting killed not by law enforcement but by a local armed neighbor of the church that confronted him.

And this isn’t meant to be a post in support of guns, only that the reaction by locals in that community may not be what you are assuming.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

And yet, the GOP recently rolled back regulations on people with mental disorders and instabilities getting guns.

Taking guns isn’t the answer, sure. Just like banning abortions makes no difference in the abortion rate and is a stupid plan meant only for political point scoring.

But, you can absolutely make it a more rigorous process to qualify to purchase a gun.

And, the bump-fire stock that was used in the Vegas shootings was allowed under Obama. Cherry picking for political purposes doesn't usually work very well.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

And, the bump-fire stock that was used in the Vegas shootings was allowed under Obama. Cherry picking for political purposes doesn't usually work very well.

The GOP controlled Congress for 75% of his term and the legislation they recently rolled back on people with mental disorders buying guns was an Obama era regulation.

Seeing how the GOP Congress (has not at all) responded to the bump stock issue, is it any wonder no legislation related to it was passed under Obama?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

A relative of mine recently moved away from a small town outside of San Antonio after living there for three years. I was speaking with him today, and he said that the locals in the San Antonio area held the belief that they were invulnerable to such a horrific event because most of them carried firearms.

I wonder what those people are thinking today?

Well, if none of the 26 that we’re killed today we’re carrying a firearm at the time, I think you can guess what they are now thinking.

And if I am understanding the reports correctly, the assailant ended up getting killed not by law enforcement but by a local armed neighbor of the church that confronted him.

And this isn’t meant to be a post in support of guns, only that the reaction by locals in that community may not be what you are assuming.

Do you realize how stupid it sounds to use the "logic" of more guns = less gun violence.

The more guns in the population, the more gun violence there will be. That is just basic elementary school common sense.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Well, if none of the 26 that we’re killed today we’re carrying a firearm at the time, I think you can guess what they are now thinking.

And if I am understanding the reports correctly, the assailant ended up getting killed not by law enforcement but by a local armed neighbor of the church that confronted him.

And this isn’t meant to be a post in support of guns, only that the reaction by locals in that community may not be what you are assuming.

Two thoughts immediately come to mind. The first is that the possibility that many people are “packing” didn’t appear to be a deterrent to a lone gunman on a mission.

The second thought is that the proliferation of guns in our society has gotten to be so bad that law-abiding people now have to start carrying firearms into their places of worship.

 

[Swervin27]

He was dishonorably discharged from military, legally not allowed to carry gun. The laws were in place. So stricter gun laws didn't work, now what angle to push?

 

[Pitt3Putt]

He was dishonorably discharged from military, legally not allowed to carry gun. The laws were in place. So stricter gun laws didn't work, now what angle to push?

Well he was posting pictures of guns he owned on Facebook, so perhaps we start treating them like illicit drugs and snatch them from people who unlawfully possess them and brag about it online.

If that seems untenable, closing the gun show loopholes would also help, as they allow people to circumvent the background check process.

 

[thebadby2]

And, the bump-fire stock that was used in the Vegasshootings was allowed under Obama. Cherry picking for political purposes doesn't usually work very well.

Apparently you don’t understand how our government works. After Sandy Hook, Obama and the Congressional Dem minority pushed for significant gun control measures that would have prohibited the sale of assault weapons and all their modifications.
. Guess who stopped them? After 25 6-7 year olds and teachers were killed in their F’in school, the NRA, the gun industry, and their majority GOP stooges not only stopped the proposed legislation in its tracks, they waged an all-out pro-gun PR campaign while the parents grieved and buried their dead babies.

Disgusting.

 

[Swervin27]

Well he was posting pictures of guns he owned on Facebook, so perhaps we start treating them like illicit drugs and snatch them from people who unlawfully possess them and brag about it online.

If that seems untenable, closing the gun show loopholes would also help, as they allow people to circumvent the background check process.

Asking authorities to do their job? Ok

 

[Pitt3Putt]

Asking authorities to do their job? Ok

I mean, it is a quaint notion in this day and age, but I'm also a pretty big criminal justice reform advocate so I'm optimistic that common sense changes would make that much more feasible.

And the gun show loophole isn't really asking anybody to do their job, which is why I think closing it makes all the sense in the world. There's no accountability, and is essentially libertarianism masquerading as being fully functional and in line with capitalism.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Well he was posting pictures of guns he owned on Facebook, so perhaps we start treating them like illicit drugs and snatch them from people who unlawfully possess them and brag about it online.

If that seems untenable, closing the gun show loopholes would also help, as they allow people to circumvent the background check process.

One doesn’t even have to go to a gun show. In some places, the availability of a weapon is no further than at one’s local flea market.

 

[Pitt3Putt]

One doesn’t even have to go to a gun show. In some places, the availability of a weapon is no further than at one’s local flea market.

True. The gun show loophole is kind of what it's been come to be known as on Capitol Hill, but yeah it's all the same and has to do with what are categorized as "private sales".

The current standard is "you can't sell to anybody who gives off the impression that they shouldn't own a gun". There is no requirement regarding background checks, checking identification, or retaining records of the sale.

Alas, "We must protect the 2nd Amendment in its current form forever and always because things never change", as the drafter of the 2nd Amendment stated when he signed the piece of parchment with a feather pen.

 

[topdecktiger]

America's response to these tragedies: "pray for the victims." So very effective.

Sitting around bitching on message boards is about as effective. Blaming one group or another is similarly as effective.

Here is the real problem. Due to the 2nd Amendment, and subsequent Supreme Court rulings, significant gun control is not really possible. It will take a constitutional amendment. So, instead of seeking emotional gratification in the moral high ground of an abstract argument, taking real world action would be a more effective in actually getting something accomplished.

 

[JokePa]

Sitting around bitching on message boards is about as effective. Blaming one group or another is similarly as effective.

Here is the real problem. Due to the 2nd Amendment, and subsequent Supreme Court rulings, significant gun control is not really possible. It will take a constitutional amendment. So, instead of seeking emotional gratification in the moral high ground of an abstract argument, taking real world action would be a more effective in actually getting something accomplished.

I honestly don't know how one can read the second amendment and come to the conclusion that Americans can own any gun they want.

Anyways, the NRA brainwash so many people that people just spout out their drivel.

The five states with the highest per capita gun death rates in 2013 were Alaska, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, and Wyoming. Each of these states has extremely lax gun violence prevention laws as well as a higher rate of gun ownership. The state with the lowest gun death rate in the nation was Hawaii, followed by Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. Each of these states has strong gun violence prevention laws and a lower rate of gun ownership.

Hawaii no Longer allows most guns and the rate keeps decreasing. It's common sense and numbers don't lie, it's black and white. More guns = more gun deaths

 

[Pitt3Putt]

I honestly don't know how one can read the second amendment and come to the conclusion that Americans can own any gun they want.

Anyways, the NRA brainwash so many people that people just spout out their drivel.

The five states with the highest per capita gun death rates in 2013 were Alaska, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, and Wyoming. Each of these states has extremely lax gun violence prevention laws as well as a higher rate of gun ownership. The state with the lowest gun death rate in the nation was Hawaii, followed by Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. Each of these states has strong gun violence prevention laws and a lower rate of gun ownership.

Hawaii no Longer allows most guns and the rate keeps decreasing. It's common sense and numbers don't lie, it's black and white. More guns = more gun deaths

Have always found this tweet soberingly accurate:

 

[topdecktiger]

I honestly don't know how one can read the second amendment and come to the conclusion that Americans can own any gun they want.

Nobody said the 2nd Amendment allows Americans to own any gun they want. However, the 2nd Amendment does protect ownership of a fairly wide range of guns, and it makes comprehensive restrictions more difficult than in other countries.

Here is a link to an article dealing with this issue. It was in regards to a comment Paul Ryan made last year, in which he claimed Americans have a right to own semi-automatic rifles. The authors spoke to several legal professors, and their consensus that was that although strictly speaking there is no specific right, a ban (not restriction, but ban) on semi-automatic rifles would not hold up in court. That goes back to my point. You need a constitutional amendment.

One other point on your comment. Automatic weapons are basically illegal for private citizens to own. So again, nobody is arguing the 2nd Amendment allow Americans to own any kind of gun they want.

 

[CJsE]

He was dishonorably discharged from military, legally not allowed to carry gun. The laws were in place. So stricter gun laws didn't work, now what angle to push?

Guess where 300k+ illegal guns come from yearly in the US, they are stolen from people with licenses.

Also for the last 30 years the majority of Americans have generally agreed that gun laws should be stricter, with less than 15% answering that they should be more lenient. Recent polls put it around 90% of people agreeing that there should be background checks and 70% say that all guns should be registered.

The US has drastically higher rates of gun death than any of the other 38 global advanced economies, we also have nearly half the world's civilian gun owners.

States with the highest ratio of gun ownership also have the highest rates of gun deaths. Which sounds like common sense until you hear the inevitable arguments that more guns = more safety.

But I'm by no means an expert on it, and I certainly can't pretend to know what the best course of action is considering there are so many guns already in circulation. But just from my perspective, if I see someone drowning I'm not going to hand them a bucket of water to solve their problem.

 

[topdecktiger]

Guess where 300k+ illegal guns come from yearly in the US, they are stolen from people with licenses.

Also for the last 30 years the majority of Americans have generally agreed that gun laws should be stricter, with less than 15% answering that they should be more lenient. Recent polls put it around 90% of people agreeing that there should be background checks and 70% say that all guns should be registered.

The US has drastically higher rates of gun death than any of the other 38 global advanced economies, we also have nearly half the world's civilian gun owners.


States with the highest ratio of gun ownership also have the highest rates of gun deaths. Which sounds like common sense until you hear the inevitable arguments that more guns = more safety.


But I'm by no means an expert on it, and I certainly can't pretend to know what the best course of action is considering there are so many guns already in circulation. But just from my perspective, if I see someone drowning I'm not going to hand them a bucket of water to solve their problem.

And again, I'll point out, most of this stems from the existence of the 2nd Amendment. That amendment limits how far the government can go with gun restrictions. Whether you agree with the laws or not is irrelevant. You have to deal with the situation as it is, not how you want it to be. The reality of the situation is, there is only so far we can go with gun control without a constitutional amendment. You can argue with me all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

 

[CJsE]

And again, I'll point out, most of this stems from the existence of the 2nd Amendment. That amendment limits how far the government can go with gun restrictions. Whether you agree with the laws or not is irrelevant. You have to deal with the situation as it is, not how you want it to be. The reality of the situation is, there is only so far we can go with gun control without a constitutional amendment. You can argue with me all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Let's get something straight, the law is not nearly as straightforward as you make it out to be. The 2nd Amendment currently means what it means because of 1 person. A single vote in the SC is why was have this current interpretation. Had a Republican controlled congress not blocked Obama's nomination, something not done since the Civil War and something that Scalia himself would have found unconstitutional, or had Clinton won the presidency the Supreme Court may very well have overturned their previous ruling.

The 2nd Amendment, and the Constitution itself, is not nearly as black and white or written in stone as you try and make it appear. It was a single vote away from giving us a drastically different interpretation.