Does the Big East remain intact if 13-9 doesn't happen?

[HailToPitt725]

In hindsight, the Big East 2.0 (2005-12) was actually a solid football conference. It won 5 out of its 8 BCS bowl games, had a member finish in the Top 10 50% of the time, and won nearly two-thirds of its bowl games, far exceeding the ACC and other power conferences. However, it never had a truly elite program like Miami was in the early 2000s. Had 13-9 never happened and WVU advances to the BCS National Championship, would that have altered the conference's long-term fate?

Keep in mind that TCU was on the way and UCF could've been invited down the line as well. Would that have been enough for ESPN to offer the conference a better TV contract in 2010, potentially surpassing the ACC?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

In hindsight, the Big East 2.0 (2005-12) was actually a solid football conference. It won 5 out of its 8 BCS bowl games, had a member finish in the Top 10 50% of the time, and won nearly two-thirds of its bowl games, far exceeding the ACC and other power conferences. However, it never had a truly elite program like Miami was in the early 2000s. Had 13-9 never happened and WVU advances to the BCS National Championship, would that have altered the conference's long-term fate?

Keep in mind that TCU was on the way and UCF could've been invited down the line as well. Would that have been enough for ESPN to offer the conference a better TV contract in 2010, potentially surpassing the ACC?

No.

But the Big East 2.0 was way better than the ACC Coastal.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

What could have/would have saved the Big East, for awhile.......is if in 2002-03, since now we peered behind the ACC curtain and see the politics, we went and plucked FSU, Clemson and Maryland from the ACC. And see what PSU would be thinking.

Make a football deal only for TV for the football playing schools.
BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
WVU
Maryland
VT
Clemson
FSU
Miami

That's a pretty attractive football conference, and entice PSU because their alumni are more in those representative cities than they are in Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago. And then hit GT up for Atlanta. You have every major city on the East Coast/Mid Atlantic represented.

 

[HailToPitt725]

What could have/would have saved the Big East, for awhile.......is if in 2002-03, since now we peered behind the ACC curtain and see the politics, we went and plucked FSU, Clemson and Maryland from the ACC. And see what PSU would be thinking.

Make a football deal only for TV for the football playing schools.
BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
WVU
Maryland
VT
Clemson
FSU
Miami

That's a pretty attractive football conference, and entice PSU because their alumni are more in those representative cities than they are in Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago. And then hit GT up for Atlanta. You have every major city on the East Coast/Mid Atlantic represented.

If I recall correctly, Miami wanted to add at least two more members for football in the late 90s, but the basketball schools wouldn't go for it. I think we also had a larger television deal than the ACC at the time... that would've been the perfect time to be proactive and poach them.

 

[CrazyPaco]

No.

The only thing that could have saved the Big East (maybe), was Notre Dame joining in football.

 

[Mikefln]

What could have/would have saved the Big East, for awhile.......is if in 2002-03, since now we peered behind the ACC curtain and see the politics, we went and plucked FSU, Clemson and Maryland from the ACC. And see what PSU would be thinking.

Make a football deal only for TV for the football playing schools.
BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
WVU
Maryland
VT
Clemson
FSU
Miami

That's a pretty attractive football conference, and entice PSU because their alumni are more in those representative cities than they are in Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago. And then hit GT up for Atlanta. You have every major city on the East Coast/Mid Atlantic represented.

That would have been attractive to me.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But the Big East 2.0 was way better than the ACC Coastal.

If you tell yourself that another 3,749 times I think you'll really start to believe it.

So around the middle of next month.

 

[h2p_5150]

The Big East was doomed the moment they voted against adding Penn State. With PSU on board there is a chance the Big East poaches the ACC instead of Miami and VT leaving. Penn State would have bolted for the Big Ten eventually but if FSU was in the conference it could have survived.

 

[HailToPitt725]

The Big East was doomed the moment they voted against adding Penn State. With PSU on board there is a chance the Big East poaches the ACC instead of Miami and VT leaving. Penn State would have bolted for the Big Ten eventually but if FSU was in the conference it could have survived.

In an ideal world, the Big East could’ve looked something like this had there been competent leadership in place:

Boston College
Florida State
Miami
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

They absolutely would’ve been the stronger football conference to the ACC and could’ve been the ones poaching them. Heck, South Carolina was still an independent at the time as well.

 

[happjack]

The Big East was doomed the moment they voted against adding Penn State. With PSU on board there is a chance the Big East poaches the ACC instead of Miami and VT leaving. Penn State would have bolted for the Big Ten eventually but if FSU was in the conference it could have survived.

The Big East football conference wasn’t formed until after Penn State joined the Big 10, FSU was in the Metro for basketball and Olympic sports back then, it was a good conference and they weren’t going to leave it for the Big East, also the catholic schools wouldn’t have wanted them.

Also, everyone seems to forget Big East Football was formed as a reaction to Raycom trying to start a new conference, that’s also why the ACC poached FSU and the SEC grabbed South Carolina.

 

[Las Panteras]

No.

The only thing that could have saved the Big East (maybe), was Notre Dame joining in football.

And here we are today......in the same exact spot.

I'll say it again. The smartest move this league can make is tell Notre Dame to name their price.

 

[cease10]

Had 13-9 never happened and WVU advances to the BCS National Championship, would that have altered the conference's long-term fate?

It probably would not have altered the conference's fate, but I did want to see it play out back then. I wanted WVU to win for the sake of the conference.

Almost 20 yrs later and we're back in the same conference predicament.

 

[ddc17]

The Big East football conference wasn’t formed until after Penn State joined the Big 10, FSU was in the Metro for basketball and Olympic sports back then, it was a good conference and they weren’t going to leave it for the Big East, also the catholic schools wouldn’t have wanted them.

Also, everyone seems to forget Big East Football was formed as a reaction to Raycom trying to start a new conference, that’s also why the ACC poached FSU and the SEC grabbed South Carolina.

had no idea about this - very cool.

https://raycomsportshistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SuperConference.pdf

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

If you tell yourself that another 3,749 times I think you'll really start to believe it.

So around the middle of next month.

I dont think you fully understand just how bad the Coastal was. The Coastal usually only had 1 Top 25 team and often 0. The BE 2.0 and Louisville and WVU taking turns as Top 5 teams. Pitt was solid middle of the pack. Cincy and Rutgers were in Top 5's. USF was up to #2 one year. Pitt & UConn were consistently good but not great. I dont even know how this is a debate. The Coastal was TERRIBLE.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

had no idea about this - very cool.

https://raycomsportshistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SuperConference.pdf

I didn't go into depth, but that is an interesting read.

 

[pittdan77]

I dont think you fully understand just how bad the Coastal was. The Coastal usually only had 1 Top 25 team and often 0. The BE 2.0 and Louisville and WVU taking turns as Top 5 teams. Pitt was solid middle of the pack. Cincy and Rutgers were in Top 5's. USF was up to #2 one year. Pitt & UConn were consistently good but not great. I dont even know how this is a debate. The Coastal was TERRIBLE.

Comparing an entire conference to a division makes sense?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Comparing an entire conference to a division makes sense?

Obviously yes. 8 vs 7

And the programs are similar

Pitt vs Pitt - Pitt better in Coastal than BE 2.0

WVU vs VT - WVU better

Lou vs UNC - Lou better

Cin vs Miami - Cin better

Rutgers vs GT - Rutgers better

USF vs Duke - even

Syr vs UVa - even

Then there's UConn which was consistently decent.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Obviously yes. 8 vs 7

And the programs are similar

Pitt vs Pitt - Pitt better in Coastal than BE 2.0

WVU vs VT - WVU better

Lou vs UNC - Lou better

Cin vs Miami - Cin better

Rutgers vs GT - Rutgers better

USF vs Duke - even

Syr vs UVa - even

Then there's UConn which was consistently decent.

I think the ACC Coastal from 2013-22 had better depth than the Big East, but the latter certainly had the better top-end teams on average.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I think the ACC Coastal from 2013-22 had better depth than the Big East, but the latter certainly had the better top-end teams on average.

Disagree. The Coastal always had really bad teams at the bottom. The middle was similar. The top was much worse.

 

[pittdan77]

Obviously yes. 8 vs 7

And the programs are similar

Pitt vs Pitt - Pitt better in Coastal than BE 2.0

WVU vs VT - WVU better

Lou vs UNC - Lou better

Cin vs Miami - Cin better

Rutgers vs GT - Rutgers better

USF vs Duke - even

Syr vs UVa - even

Then there's UConn which was consistently decent.

Don't know how you dream this crap up.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Don't know how you dream this crap up.

You are telling me that a grouping of 8 teams cannot be compared to a grouping of 7 teams? Why?

 

[upj87]

In hindsight, the Big East 2.0 (2005-12) was actually a solid football conference. It won 5 out of its 8 BCS bowl games, had a member finish in the Top 10 50% of the time, and won nearly two-thirds of its bowl games, far exceeding the ACC and other power conferences. However, it never had a truly elite program like Miami was in the early 2000s. Had 13-9 never happened and WVU advances to the BCS National Championship, would that have altered the conference's long-term fate?

Keep in mind that TCU was on the way and UCF could've been invited down the line as well. Would that have been enough for ESPN to offer the conference a better TV contract in 2010, potentially surpassing the ACC?

you ponder that in the age of the destruction of the PAC12?..... that would be a big "no".

 

[HailToPitt725]

you ponder that in the age of the destruction of the PAC12?..... that would be a big "no".

In hindsight, it seems it was inevitable because it’s almost impossible for two conferences overlapping much of the same region to remain afloat. The Big 8 engulfed the SWC, the ACC poached the Big East, and even today with conferences having much larger footprints.

 

[ThePanthers]

I don't think. When you have as large of a split of FB vs BB only members, you are never going to survive long term.

Also, I think the way things have been going, even if the Big East football split from the BB only schools, at the end of the day, all the big brands would have migrated to the BIG and SEC in due time.

Look at the Pac 12 and Big XII (before any defections). They were strong as well and broke apart.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I don't think. When you have as large of a split of FB vs BB only members, you are never going to survive long term.

Also, I think the way things have been going, even if the Big East football split from the BB only schools, at the end of the day, all the big brands would have migrated to the BIG and SEC in due time.

Look at the Pac 12 and Big XII (before any defections). They were strong as well and broke apart.

Here's an interesting thought: I think the only way the Big East 2.0 could've survived was A) if the football members split off and B) if the Pac-12 added the Oklahoma and Texas schools like they wanted to. BE 2.0 could've then added what was left of the Big 12 and had enough for a conference championship game.

Baylor
Cincinnati
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
TCU
UConn
West Virginia

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Disagree. The Coastal always had really bad teams at the bottom. The middle was similar. The top was much worse.

The problem is that the teams at the bottom of that Big East were really bad too. And the teams in the middle weren't much better, but they looked that way because they got to play the really bad teams and then pile up a ton of non-conference wins against teams that would have lost to the Western PA School for the Blind.

Rutgers was prime example of that. I've done it before so I'm not going to bother doing it again, but they scheduled themselves four easy non-conference wins every single season. So then they'd go 4-3 against their mediocre conference mates, and viola, 8-3 and borderline ranked. Even though in some of those years they didn't beat one team that would be in anyone's top 50 or 60 or 70.

But in your mind, that made them pretty good. Actually on the field, not so much.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The problem is that the teams at the bottom of that Big East were really bad too. And the teams in the middle weren't much better, but they looked that way because they got to play the really bad teams and then pile up a ton of non-conference wins against teams that would have lost to the Western PA School for the Blind.

Rutgers was prime example of that. I've done it before so I'm not going to bother doing it again, but they scheduled themselves four easy non-conference wins every single season. So then they'd go 4-3 against their mediocre conference mates, and viola, 8-3 and borderline ranked. Even though in some of those years they didn't beat one team that would be in anyone's top 50 or 60 or 70.

But in your mind, that made them pretty good. Actually on the field, not so much.

Only Syracuse was really bad. I get what you are saying about Rutgers but player for player, they werent any worse than Coastal middle of the pack. Schiano had a pretty decent program going.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Only Syracuse was really bad. I get what you are saying about Rutgers but player for player, they werent any worse than Coastal middle of the pack. Schiano had a pretty decent program going.

No, Schiano had a program going that, with a few exceptions, beat up on the eight or nine garbage teams they got to play every year, which fooled a lot of people into thinking that they were a pretty decent program.

The fact that they finished so high up in the conference so many times isn't a sign that Rutgers was good, it was a sign that the Big East was bad.

 

[TakeMeHome42]

No, Schiano had a program going that, with a few exceptions, beat up on the eight or nine garbage teams they got to play every year, which fooled a lot of people into thinking that they were a pretty decent program.

The fact that they finished so high up in the conference so many times isn't a sign that Rutgers was good, it was a sign that the Big East was bad.

The Big East was decent when WVU and Louisville were humming because USF and Rutgers and Pitt shared times when they were decent/good.

To discount the Big East 2.0 versus the division of the ACC that didn’t have Clemson or FSU is laughable. That division was very bad. There literally wasn’t one consistent program in that division for like 10 years. It was incredibly weak and lead to the negative comments from the rest of the country. In the 2010s, that conference was Clemson and Jimbo/Jameis 2013. Jimbo rightfully left that cesspool in Tallahassee.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No, Schiano had a program going that, with a few exceptions, beat up on the eight or nine garbage teams they got to play every year, which fooled a lot of people into thinking that they were a pretty decent program.

The fact that they finished so high up in the conference so many times isn't a sign that Rutgers was good, it was a sign that the Big East was bad.

Rutgers may have been overrated due to weak OOC schedules but they were not a bad team. That group they had with Ray Rice, Underwood, Mike Teel would have won the Coastal easily. And before and after them they were decent. They werent like a 2-10 type team who played weak schedules. I dont think you understand just how bad the Coastal was.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Rutgers may have been overrated due to weak OOC schedules but they were not a bad team. That group they had with Ray Rice, Underwood, Mike Teel would have won the Coastal easily. And before and after them they were decent. They werent like a 2-10 type team who played weak schedules. I dont think you understand just how bad the Coastal was.

No, I understand exactly how bad the Coastal was, and I understand exactly what Rutgers was, which is why I know that they would have fit right in.

They were a thoroughly mediocre team that scheduled their way to decent records. Part of that crappy schedule was their conference schedule. Not as big a part as the dreck that they actually scheduled on their own, sure. But the 70th best team in the country that never won a game that they shouldn't have won would have won at least seven or eight games every year with Rutgers schedule, and sometimes a few more than that.

For example, the randomly selected 2009 Rutgers team. Nine wins. Howard, Florida International, 2-10 Maryland, Texas Southern, Army, UConn, South Florida, Louisville (they won four games that year) and UCF.

They played three good teams that season, Cincinnati, West Virginia and us. They got the good fortune of playing all three of them at home. They lost all three. Their other loss was to a four win Syracuse team, whose three wins other than Rutgers were Northwestern, Maine and Akron.

In other words, if you are being extremely generous you might say they were thoroughly mediocre. But they went 9-4 that season. They even, for one brief, shinning moment, appeared in the AP poll at number 25. They then went out and lost that game to Syracuse. By three touchdowns.