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OT:Buccos

Interesting time coming up for Pirates. Finally playing the Cubs and Brewers.
The games against Milwaukee away will be especially enlightening. The Brewers have owned the Pirates for a number of years, kind of like bullying them at times.
To prove they can contend in the Central, they have to beat those two franchises.
 
When the Pirates traded Tony Watson for Cruz, he was considered a “lottery ticket” prospect he wasn’t on anyone’s radar for top 100 prospect. He was batting .240 in A Ball with strike out issues. BUT He was a 6-8 shortstop with a chance to stick at the position with an absolute ton of power possibilities. I could see the Pirates if not in contention trading for a “lottery ticket ” prospect.
 
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TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
O'Neill Cruz was a top 25 prospect. The odds of even getting a top 100 prospect for Rich Freaking Hill are 0.0000%. As you alluded to, he wouldn't even sniff the starting rotation in a postseason series.
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I agree that Hill will not get us a Cruz level prospect. But I would be okay dealing Hill--even if we are a playoff contender--for a lesser but still okay prospect.
 
Upg bobcat said:
I agree that Hill will not get us a Cruz level prospect. But I would be okay dealing Hill--even if we are a playoff contender--for a lesser but still okay prospect.
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I'm fine with dealing any veteran right now, because I don't consider us to be a contender. But if we're actually in the hunt, it seems like we would need him about as badly as anyone else, no? Our pitching has been solid, but it's far from an embarrassment of riches.
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
I'm fine with dealing any veteran right now, because I don't consider us to be a contender. But if we're actually in the hunt, it seems like we would need him about as badly as anyone else, no? Our pitching has been solid, but it's far from an embarrassment of riches.
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"You are what your record says you are.".. Bill Parcells. Fist place in June says you, uh, currently "are" a contender..
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
I'm fine with dealing any veteran right now, because I don't consider us to be a contender. But if we're actually in the hunt, it seems like we would need him about as badly as anyone else, no? Our pitching has been solid, but it's far from an embarrassment of riches.
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Contender for what? Making the playoffs? Our actually winning the NL and/or World Series? I'm sure a guy like Cutch who is up there in years and will have limited chances left in his career will not want to hear this, but I am never going to be convinced that this is our year to win the league or world championship, even if we are in the hunt to win the Central Division. MAYBE if Cruz comes back and is on fire, we have a shot, but if I were running the Pirates, I would be very cautious with bringing him back this season and set my sights on next year and the following couple years.

I am curious, I don't gamble so I don't know where to go to look this up, but what the betting odds right now on the Bucs to win the NL?
 
Upg bobcat said:
Contender for what? Making the playoffs? Our actually winning the NL and/or World Series? I'm sure a guy like Cutch who is up there in years and will have limited chances left in his career will not want to hear this, but I am never going to be convinced that this is our year to win the league or world championship, even if we are in the hunt to win the Central Division. MAYBE if Cruz comes back and is on fire, we have a shot, but if I were running the Pirates, I would be very cautious with bringing him back this season and set my sights on next year and the following couple years.
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I don't consider us to be a championship contender. Simply making the playoffs in professional sports, albeit a rare feat for the Pirates, doesn't impress me all that much. Just my opinion, but we're an overachieving bunch who is punching above its weight class right now. But we're nowhere near what we're going to be in the next three years, so I'd be upset if we compromise any of those years just to be someone's feeder fish in the playoffs this season.
 
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upj87 said:
"You are what your record says you are.".. Bill Parcells. Fist place in June says you, uh, currently "are" a contender..
Click to expand...

We're as much of a championship contender as the winner of the NFC South last year.

Cowboys 31 - (8-9) Buccaneers 14

If we want that to be our fate, sure - let's go all in for '23.
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
I'm fine with dealing any veteran right now, because I don't consider us to be a contender. But if we're actually in the hunt, it seems like we would need him about as badly as anyone else, no? Our pitching has been solid, but it's far from an embarrassment of riches.
Click to expand...
The Pirates have a whole basket full of these kind of guys. The problem is, they haven't been doing that well.
Santana hits a HR a month.
Ji Man Cho or whatever his name is has been hurt all year and has done nothing.
Connor Joe is another journeyman utility guy who's stats are pedestrian.
The aforementioned Hill is like the old guy in Major League.
Vasquez done for the year.

McCutcheon is the most valuable, but they'd get skinned alive if they moved him.
 
The highly anticipated call-up of Osvaldo Bido coming during the Cubs series.

Yeah, I know, WhoTF is Osvaldo Bido????
Meanwhile Priester, who could actually help, continues to grow hair in Indy.
 
FreeportPanther said:
The Pirates have a whole basket full of these kind of guys. The problem is, they haven't been doing that well.
Santana hits a HR a month.
Ji Man Cho or whatever his name is has been hurt all year and has done nothing.
Connor Joe is another journeyman utility guy who's stats are pedestrian.
The aforementioned Hill is like the old guy in Major League.
Vasquez done for the year.

McCutcheon is the most valuable, but they'd get skinned alive if they moved him.
Click to expand...

I haven't even been following closely enough to know Velasquez is out for the year. But that sucks.

And yeah - McCutchen is pretty much untradeable. I doubt he even wants to go anywhere else at this point, even if it's to chase a championship. His home is here.

I actually kind of like the approach of signing these one-year veterans before the season, because you're effectively buying prospects if any of them pan out. People laugh at it and say we should bring so and so up instead, but years of control matter on those young guys when you're the Pirates. So that, in conjunction with being able to move pieces like Quintana last season, isn't a bad thing. Now, if they're still doing it in two years, when they're expected to make a much more legit run at contention, that would be an issue.

But I think it's been a fairly decent balancing act of singing veterans and letting some of these younger dudes basically audition for the big leagues.
 
Is anyone else concerned with the lack of a "blow me away" prospect despite how high the Pirates have drafted and how much they have invested? Sure Davis and Endy, but they still have some work and aren't blowing people away with their numbers. Gonzales is "meh". Swaggerty I don't think ever will get here. Tamarr Johnson is supposed to be this great bat, well...... I mean Priester has looked well but guys like Glasnow and Keller were just mowing people down in AA or AAA before they were promoted.

It is why the Pirates absolutely have to take Crews and not overthink it. They need to get a surefire bat in this lineup over the next 2 years.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Is anyone else concerned with the lack of a "blow me away" prospect despite how high the Pirates have drafted and how much they have invested? Sure Davis and Endy, but they still have some work and aren't blowing people away with their numbers. Gonzales is "meh". Swaggerty I don't think ever will get here. Tamarr Johnson is supposed to be this great bat, well...... I mean Priester has looked well but guys like Glasnow and Keller were just mowing people down in AA or AAA before they were promoted.

It is why the Pirates absolutely have to take Crews and not overthink it. They need to get a surefire bat in this lineup over the next 2 years.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. When you think of how many high picks we've had over the last 30 years, it's actually kind of incredible. McCutchen was an absolutely hit, as was Cole. But it feels like we should have had one or two... or seven more of them. I'm talking about guys who were thought to be slam dunks and never failed to live up to that billing. Superstars, if you will.

Obviously, drafting based on signability had something to do with it. So you probably can't go back 30 years. But still. Even when we did get a guy like Kris Benson, well... didn't work. That's why I'm convinced organizational culture has a lot to do with it. Anything the Pittsburgh Pirate Detroit Lions touch turns to excrement, while the St. Louis Cardinal Pittsburgh Steelers are weaving straw into gold on the regular.
 
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or, a comparison based on actual baseball and not a random football game... the 2022 Phillies taking it to 6 games in the world series after sneaking in by a game as the last wildcard.
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
We're as much of a championship contender as the winner of the NFC South last year.

Cowboys 31 - (8-9) Buccaneers 14

If we want that to be our fate, sure - let's go all in for '23.
Click to expand...
 
upj87 said:
or, a comparison based on actual baseball and not a random football game... the 2022 Phillies taking it to 6 games in the world series after sneaking in by a game as the last wildcard.
Click to expand...

Yes, a teams that had a $242,215,746 payroll and underachieved in the regular season versus one with a $73,277,500 payroll that has feasted on mostly lousy competition.

What level of prospect would you be comfortable in parting with to go all in on this season?
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Is anyone else concerned with the lack of a "blow me away" prospect despite how high the Pirates have drafted and how much they have invested?
Click to expand...
I hear you, but baseball seems less single player driven than other sports. Do they keep WAR stats for other sports like basketball? Whatever the record highest single season WAR is for MLB, I'm willing to bet Lebron's 2011 WAR is higher (factoring in that they play half as many games).

We don't necessarily need one or two "blow me away" prospects, but we need a larger number of prospects that can come up to be (or young guys already at the major league level to turn into) above average types.
 
So... Crews or Skenes?

I watched most of the LSU game yesterday... what a loaded lineup. Didn't realize the dude who set the record for homeruns by a freshman at NC State last year transfered there.
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
I just think now is not the time to be buyers.
Click to expand...
Why not? Do the Pirates actually think with this line-up year after year they are going to be in first place on August 1st? 44 year old rich hill one of your top three? Cutch gonna keep on having numbers better than 4 of his last 5 season? (those two things would have happened if Pirates are near the top by end of july)

If you are in first place or a close second, the payroll is 28th out of 30, you spend 18 million topping off end of the year rent a players you are still not in the freakin top 20 payrolls, no long term deals just arms, bats, to finish a chance to win the division, if you are at the top.

I suppose if your goal is to make money, short term, leave the 18 mil in Nuttings wallet. It would be a monumnetal, longer term money maker if the Pirates could win the division or get into play-offs, but, gasp, you got to spend a little.
 
Parkview57 said:
Why not? Do the Pirates actually think with this line-up year after year they are going to be in first place on August 1st? 44 year old rich hill one of your top three? Cutch gonna keep on having numbers better than 4 of his last 5 season? (those two things would have happened if Pirates are near the top by end of july)

If you are in first place or a close second, the payroll is 28th out of 30, you spend 18 million topping off end of the year rent a players you are still not in the freakin top 20 payrolls, no long term deals just arms, bats, to finish a chance to win the division, if you are at the top.

I suppose if your goal is to make money, short term, leave the 18 mil in Nuttings wallet. It would be a monumnetal, longer term money maker if the Pirates could win the division or get into play-offs, but, gasp, you got to spend a little.
Click to expand...

Oh I'm totally cool with spending more money... just not with giving up high prospects. If it's just an informal salary dump, sure - I am fine with that.
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
Absolutely. When you think of how many high picks we've had over the last 30 years, it's actually kind of incredible. McCutchen was an absolutely hit, as was Cole. But it feels like we should have had one or two... or seven more of them. I'm talking about guys who were thought to be slam dunks and never failed to live up to that billing. Superstars, if you will.

Obviously, drafting based on signability had something to do with it. So you probably can't go back 30 years. But still. Even when we did get a guy like Kris Benson, well... didn't work. That's why I'm convinced organizational culture has a lot to do with it. Anything the Pittsburgh Pirate Detroit Lions touch turns to excrement, while the St. Louis Cardinal Pittsburgh Steelers are weaving straw into gold on the regular.
Click to expand...
Well they have also had some bad luck. The years Benson and King went #1 overall, well that was bad luck. They did hit it with Cole. Everyone had Alvarez as a top 3 pick and for awhile he looked to be. Bryan Bullington was just gross negligence and malfeasance in a stacked draft. Brad Lincoln was too. Especially 4 pitchers who went right behind him, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Lincecum and Max Scherzer.

But I am talking about right now. The system right now. Nick Gonzales, he seems like he should be like mayor for Altoona he has been there for so long. Carmen Mlodzinski?? Who? Gunnar Hogland. Swaggerty. Termarr Johnson? Thomas Harrington? And the Henry Davis year where they went big with Anthony Solemeto, Lonnie White, Bubba Chandler? How are these guys progressing?? I understand it is not always linear, but the lack of someone breaking out is a bit concerning.

But do a google search on MLB draft and it is even a bigger crapshoot than the NHL. I mean the Astros had 3 straight years of #1 overall and 2 guys never even played in the majors. Take the 2015 draft. Of the 42 "1st rounders" including sandwich picks, only 8 guys have a total WAR over 10 (Ke'Bryan Hayes is one) and only one can be considered an All Star Houston's Alex Bregman who apparently drafts #2 overall better than they do #1. But looking over these drafts, it is just such a crap shoot. Hell, the first 10 guys drafted in 2016, which now we are 7 years away from that date, have a combined,....COMBINED WAR of 10.1. COMBINED.

So I get the theory of taking lower slot guys, that allow you to pick more quality candidates and hope 1 or 2 sticks then spend the max slot and lose the ability to draft the best talent. But again, I think this year, the Pirates have to take Crews because many times #1 is a "meh" guy. And pitchers, just way too much of a gamble.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Well they have also had some bad luck. The years Benson and King went #1 overall, well that was bad luck. They did hit it with Cole. Everyone had Alvarez as a top 3 pick and for awhile he looked to be. Bryan Bullington was just gross negligence and malfeasance in a stacked draft. Brad Lincoln was too. Especially 4 pitchers who went right behind him, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Lincecum and Max Scherzer.

But I am talking about right now. The system right now. Nick Gonzales, he seems like he should be like mayor for Altoona he has been there for so long. Carmen Mlodzinski?? Who? Gunnar Hogland. Swaggerty. Termarr Johnson? Thomas Harrington? And the Henry Davis year where they went big with Anthony Solemeto, Lonnie White, Bubba Chandler? How are these guys progressing?? I understand it is not always linear, but the lack of someone breaking out is a bit concerning.

But do a google search on MLB draft and it is even a bigger crapshoot than the NHL. I mean the Astros had 3 straight years of #1 overall and 2 guys never even played in the majors. Take the 2015 draft. Of the 42 "1st rounders" including sandwich picks, only 8 guys have a total WAR over 10 (Ke'Bryan Hayes is one) and only one can be considered an All Star Houston's Alex Bregman who apparently drafts #2 overall better than they do #1. But looking over these drafts, it is just such a crap shoot. Hell, the first 10 guys drafted in 2016, which now we are 7 years away from that date, have a combined,....COMBINED WAR of 10.1. COMBINED.

So I get the theory of taking lower slot guys, that allow you to pick more quality candidates and hope 1 or 2 sticks then spend the max slot and lose the ability to draft the best talent. But again, I think this year, the Pirates have to take Crews because many times #1 is a "meh" guy. And pitchers, just way too much of a gamble.
Click to expand...

I was more saying that you would think we would have a Trout or a Harper in there somewhere just based on having so many high picks and the law of averages taking affect. If you're talking about the current group's minor league performances... well, I honestly haven't been following all that closely. Someone earlier said Priester is doing well, so that's a good thing. Johnson would still be pretty young, though.

The thing I've been complaining about for a while is the number of "smallish" position players we've been using high picks on. Lots of guys who are 6'0" and under, in a time when power is of uber importance.
 
TheWerewolfFromTwilight said:
I was more saying that you would think we would have a Trout or a Harper in there somewhere just based on having so many high picks and the law of averages taking affect. If you're talking about the current group's minor league performances... well, I honestly haven't been following all that closely. Someone earlier said Priester is doing well, so that's a good thing. Johnson would still be pretty young, though.

The thing I've been complaining about for a while is the number of "smallish" position players we've been using high picks on. Lots of guys who are 6'0" and under, in a time when power is of uber importance.
Click to expand...
Yeah honestly, I didn't like the Termarr Johnson pick, not that I know really much about these guys, but he 5'8". Would have rather have picked Eric Green's son.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Well they have also had some bad luck. The years Benson and King went #1 overall, well that was bad luck. They did hit it with Cole. Everyone had Alvarez as a top 3 pick and for awhile he looked to be. Bryan Bullington was just gross negligence and malfeasance in a stacked draft. Brad Lincoln was too. Especially 4 pitchers who went right behind him, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Lincecum and Max Scherzer.

But I am talking about right now. The system right now. Nick Gonzales, he seems like he should be like mayor for Altoona he has been there for so long. Carmen Mlodzinski?? Who? Gunnar Hogland. Swaggerty. Termarr Johnson? Thomas Harrington? And the Henry Davis year where they went big with Anthony Solemeto, Lonnie White, Bubba Chandler? How are these guys progressing?? I understand it is not always linear, but the lack of someone breaking out is a bit concerning.

But do a google search on MLB draft and it is even a bigger crapshoot than the NHL. I mean the Astros had 3 straight years of #1 overall and 2 guys never even played in the majors. Take the 2015 draft. Of the 42 "1st rounders" including sandwich picks, only 8 guys have a total WAR over 10 (Ke'Bryan Hayes is one) and only one can be considered an All Star Houston's Alex Bregman who apparently drafts #2 overall better than they do #1. But looking over these drafts, it is just such a crap shoot. Hell, the first 10 guys drafted in 2016, which now we are 7 years away from that date, have a combined,....COMBINED WAR of 10.1. COMBINED.

So I get the theory of taking lower slot guys, that allow you to pick more quality candidates and hope 1 or 2 sticks then spend the max slot and lose the ability to draft the best talent. But again, I think this year, the Pirates have to take Crews because many times #1 is a "meh" guy. And pitchers, just way too much of a gamble.
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You’ve got a good list of some of the Pirates’ bad 1st round draft picks but you’re not listing the one from the same timeframe as those that irked me the most….Daniel Moskos. If I remember correctly, they admitted to passing on another big name guy because of $ and further admitted that Moskos’ ceiling projected to be no better than a back of the rotation guy or middle reliever.

Edit: catcher Matt Weiters was the bigger name guy they passed on but, although he did have somewhat decent of a MLB career, it was nothing special.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Yeah honestly, I didn't like the Termarr Johnson pick, not that I know really much about these guys, but he 5'8". Would have rather have picked Eric Green's son.
Click to expand...

I didn't mind him as much because I think they said he was the best pure hitter in X number of years... but that very well could just be me slurping up the BS with a straw. His mechanics seem like they might leave the door open for a lot to go wrong (although I get that Ichiro did similar goofy things), and I'm basically just at the mercy of what they tell me when it comes to evaluating baseball prospects - especially those in high school.
 
Upg bobcat said:
Cole Tucker was a taller first rounder but he didn't pan out, either.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there were definitely a few. But....

Connor Joe - 6'0"
Kevin Newman - 6'0"
Ke'Bryan Hayes - 5'10"
Will Craig - 6'3"
Travis Swaggerty - 5'10"
Sammy Siani - 5"10"
Nick Gonzales - 5'10"
Henry Davis - 6'2"
Termarr Johnson - 5'8"

So only two out of the last nine. And maybe that's more common than I think; it just seems like we're usually lacking "put together" guys who just flick balls they don't even hit well over the wall.
 
FreeportPanther said:
Priester is dominating now at AAA.
Click to expand...


In his last start he gave up 4 runs, all earned, 8 hits, 2 walks, 4 strikeouts in 5 innings. Two starts before that he gave up 8 runs, 5 earned, with 4 hits, 6 walks and 3 strike outs in an inning and two thirds.

The start in between he pitched six scoreless. The start before that really awful one he pitched five scoreless. In other words, he's dominating every other start, and getting hammered in the other ones.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
But I am talking about right now. The system right now. Nick Gonzales, he seems like he should be like mayor for Altoona he has been there for so long. Carmen Mlodzinski?? Who? Gunnar Hogland. Swaggerty. Termarr Johnson? Thomas Harrington? And the Henry Davis year where they went big with Anthony Solemeto, Lonnie White, Bubba Chandler? How are these guys progressing?? I understand it is not always linear, but the lack of someone breaking out is a bit concerning.
Click to expand...


Solometo is 20 years old playing at High A. His current stat line is 58-2/3 innings, 2.30 era, 68 strikeouts, 1.16 whip. I'm not sure it's even a little realistic to have expected much more than that.

Johnson just turned 19 yesterday. He's at A ball, hitting .240/.406/.364. What more are you expecting of a guy who has literally played one game of A ball at 19 years old? There are high school guys in this year's draft who are older than him, and almost none of them will be playing A ball any time this season.

Chandler is also a 20 year old playing in High A. He's not pitching nearly as well as Solometo, but again, he's 20 pitching in High A. In other words, he's way ahead of his age.

Lonnie White is the one who has been disappointing. Mostly due to the fact that he keeps getting hurt so that he can't even really play.
 
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BTW, to put numbers on it, the average age of pitchers in the South Atlantic League this year (the league that Solometo and Chandler are playing at) is 23.2. The average age of of batters in the Florida State League this year (where Johnson is playing) is 21.2.
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
Solometo is 20 years old playing at High A. His current stat line is 58-2/3 innings, 2.30 era, 68 strikeouts, 1.16 whip. I'm not sure it's even a little realistic to have expected much more than that.

Johnson just turned 19 yesterday. He's at A ball, hitting .240/.406/.364. What more are you expecting of a guy who has literally played one game of A ball at 19 years old? There are high school guys in this year's draft who are older than him, and almost none of them will be playing A ball any time this season.

Chandler is also a 20 year old playing in High A. He's not pitching nearly as well as Solometo, but again, he's 20 pitching in High A. In other words, he's way ahead of his age.

Lonnie White is the one who has been disappointing. Mostly due to the fact that he keeps getting hurt so that he can't even really play.
Click to expand...
Johnson is the "best bat we have seen in years". I expect more. The two pitchers yeah they are HS. You don't have to be your typical pedantic self to nit pick something and not get the overall message. No one close to the majors is really doing anything to provide some excitement that help is on the way. Despite 5 years of drafting towards the top of each round and a sound strategy.
 
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Jameson Tallion up against the Buccos tonight. Blast from the past.

2023: 1-4 7.02 ERA

2021 Original trade to NYY
Tallion for:

Miguel Yajure - claimed off waivers by SG Giants from Pirates in 2023
Canaan Smith - AAA Pirates 7HR 22 RBIs, 0.245 avg
Maikol Escotto - high A Pirates affiliate Greensboro batting 0.196
Roansy Contreras - Pirates 3-5 5.91 ERA
 
Dointhatrag said:
Jameson Tallion up against the Buccos tonight. Blast from the past.

2023: 1-4 7.02 ERA

2021 Original trade to NYY
Tallion for:

Miguel Yajure - claimed off waivers by SG Giants from Pirates in 2023
Canaan Smith - AAA Pirates 7HR 22 RBIs, 0.245 avg
Maikol Escotto - high A Pirates affiliate Greensboro batting 0.196
Roansy Contreras - Pirates 3-5 5.91 ERA
Click to expand...
I mean Contreras still has hope, but this with trading for young prospects. You just don't know.
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
In his last start he gave up 4 runs, all earned, 8 hits, 2 walks, 4 strikeouts in 5 innings. Two starts before that he gave up 8 runs, 5 earned, with 4 hits, 6 walks and 3 strike outs in an inning and two thirds.

The start in between he pitched six scoreless. The start before that really awful one he pitched five scoreless. In other words, he's dominating every other start, and getting hammered in the other ones.
Click to expand...
Is he better than Osvaldo Bido????????????????????????????????/
 
FreeportPanther said:
Is he better than Osvaldo Bido????????????????????????????????/
Click to expand...


Here are their numbers this season at AAA so far:

Player A: 4.55 era, 55-1/3 innings, 56 strikeouts, 26 walks, .224 opponents average against, 1.30 whip
Player B: 4.63 era, 56-1/3 innings, 57 strikeouts, 25 walks, .266 opponents average against, 1.47 whip

Pretty similar, but tell me which one is better and then I'll tell you which is which.
 
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