I remember those particular games, I was a fan then. Then after the '92 season when the Pirates became irrelevant forever I realized I hated the sport itself.
OT: Greatest Moment in Pirates' History?
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Also, McClatchy might have been the out front (later, out of the closet
) owner in the early mid 90s, but the Nuttings were heavily invested then as well. Only took controlling interest later, but still had big influence. They're smart businesspeople, leveraging a flawed system and the egos of the other owners that want to win, to literally get wealth for purposely fielding a bad team.
Also a Pirate killer, especially as he got older, oddly. They could NOT get him out. Other guys like that were Jack Clark and Darrell Evans (much later, Albert Pujols). Yes, good players for sure but must have hit astronomically well against the Pirates.
LOL Derek Bell was a Pirate killer, so they acquired him and he really killed them with "Operation Shutdown"!
I thought you might enjoy this. Regards:
And then there was The Arm.
Words can only take this so far. Do yourself a favor. Get a hold of some old tapes or online videos. Rockets to third base coming out of nowhere from the right field bullpen at Forbes Field. Behind the runner who took a wide turn at first. Or just to throw someone out at first on a sharp hit. In fifty years of watching baseball I have seen one throw by anybody else that I would call a Roberto Clemente throw, by Jose Guillen from the right field wall to third base one night in Colorado.
There are countless candidates, but, for me, there is one Clemente throw that stands above all others. It is odd that this throw is not better known because it prevented the winning run from scoring in the bottom of the ninth inning of one of the truly great World Series games, the sixth game of the 1971 World Series, won 3-2 by the Orioles in the tenth by Frank Robinson’s daring slide under the leaping Manny Sanguillen. Somehow this throw did not make the Clemente highlight reel so frequently shown from that World Series, perhaps because there is so much from which to choose. For me, this would have been the first shot, a jolt to sit up straight and pay attention because something special is coming, like the first thundering drum beat in "Like a Rolling Stone."
With the score tied at two, and Mark Belanger on first, Don Buford hits one down the right field line to the wall. There are two outs and Belanger is running; Buford’s hit surely will win the game. Clemente sails over to the deepest corner, plays the carom perfectly in an unfamiliar stadium, grabs the ball, wheels and fires from the right field wall, 300 feet away. An instant later, it takes a short hop and hits Manny Sanguillen’s catcher’s mitt at home plate. Sangy does not move a muscle. Neither does Belanger at third. They showed this throw on the World Series highlight film at our camp the next summer. The Pittsburgh and Baltimore kids knew it was coming. Everyone else just gasped. I know that this is the greatest throw Roberto Clemente ever made because it is the greatest throw that anyone ever made.
That’s a good one 17-15, but honestly, I’ve seen better ones . In my opinion, the one in Game #2 was more impressive. He twirled and threw a strike to Hebner.
I used to watch every road a game on TV from 1969 thru 1972 and saw a lot of throws that were as good or better. In fact, I used to go early to batting practice and watched Clemente shag flies and throw bullets to Jose Pagan standing at third base, including the twirl and throw...
Little know fact that Clemente also threw the javelin as a teenager and probably would have represented Puerto Rico in the 1956 Olympics had he not signed a baseball contract...
May I reiterate here. I am not defending the Nuttings. I agree with all you are saying. Only saying that the Nutting era is not the worst in Pirates history. having the worst team in baseball through the early 50s was worse. Having one of the worst teams in the league and having some of your players and even your freaking Pirate Parrot hauled in during a drug scandal was worse.
Yet I wasn't that impressed because I had watched the man play for the better part of 17 years and knew when the ball was hit that the runner wouldn't even try to score. I remember how the National media gushed all over Clemente during and after that series. And all I kept saying was "but he's been doing that his whole career".
You're right of course, but what makes it seem worse is MLB has become an arms race, and Nutting won't play.
Back in the 50's, it was a different animal. Low salaries, reserve clause, fewer teams, no big time TV contracts, etc.
He has the $, but isn't motivated to spend it to compete like a lot of other owners.
Exacerbated by the stadium situation here, where the public funded a jewel of a stadium for the promise of a competitive team. They got their stadium, the competitive team, not so much.
Lots of frustration, but baseball is stuck in Pittsburgh. Nutting isn't going anywhere, and MLB is fine with the status quo, so there you have it. Permanent Washington General status.
That series was his National coming out party. He was Olivier as Hamlet on the biggest stage of baseball.
He was pretty good in the '60 series as well, but went to another level in '71.
It's no wonder Schmidt had a chip on his shoulder. When he first came into the league the hometown Philly fans treated him brutally. Until he hit his stride and eventually became the greatest 3rd baseman of all time. I know, Brooks Robinson. But I take Schmidt over Robinson because Schmidt was a much better hitter while fielding almost as well. Schmidt had 10 gold gloves in his career.
Last year he was excoriated in the press for his Cole and Cutch trades, yet they were actually pretty sound moves. And the team that was predicted to win in the mid 70s finished above .500. We go into this season with a pretty good pitching staff and a decent line up and bench. If the man would spend another 25 million on some pieces to fill in the gaps the Pirates would be pretty competitive. Yet there is great doubt that he will do it. Frustrating for sure.
The optics were certainly bad... but it wasn't a worse situation. They were a bad team but it wasn't for lack of spending, it was awful management, throwing big money at obsolete vets and keeping Tanner around too long. You figured the ship would eventually right with better manager and sensible player acquisitions. And it did. Because there was honest desire to compete, at the core. That is no longer true. It is a relentless objective to maximize profit, every year. If a decent baseball move gets made here and there, ( and I'll say it was likely a smart thing to trade Cutch and let some guys leave like Harrison), and a bit of overachieving happens like those couple years of wildcard seasons, fine. It's gravy. But it's not at all the intent. So that hope or expectation, that even a crap team like the Hendrick/Tenace/Otis years could ultimately evolve back into a contender because winning is the goal, totally doesn't exist. Because winning isn't the goal. At all.
Also, McClatchy might have been the out front (later, out of the closet
The Nuttings, originally the old man, always owned a greater percentage of the team than McClatchy did. They allowed McClatchy to be the face of the franchise right up until he was no longer of any use in that role, and then they replaced him. They could have taken control of the team from him at literally any moment they wanted to pretty much from day one. As long as McClatchy was willing to dance to the song, no need to replace the puppet.
Hey Joe - Did the Nuttings essentially use McClatchy to get PNC Park? I vaguely remember McClatchy being the pitch man for building a new ball park.
It's great that we all support our favorite local heroes, but the notion that Sanguillen was the second best catcher in the game at a time that the game had guys like Bench, Fisk, Simmons, Freehan, Munson and probably a few others I'm forgetting about is kind of silly.
To put it into perspective, Sanguillen made the All Star team three times, Bench 14, Fisk 11, Simmons 8, Freehan 11 and Munson 7.
McClatchy was the face of the franchise. He played the role that it was necessary for him to play so that he would get to play major league baseball owner.
Man . Around that time reminds me of the night me and a buddy after having left a night game hung out near the stadium and decided to take a walk around the place and wouldn't you know it the center field area was wide open . We proceeded to stroll right out into center field , into the infield , through the Pirates dugout and into the club house .
Never forget standing at the urinal wondering how many Bucco greats and not so greats stood where I was . Lol .
Finally one of the grounds crew strolled in . Stopped , looked at us and said
"What the f#ck are you guys doing in here" ?! Get the f%c* out !
We agreed , but only if he could get us each a baseball ... He did !
Good times I tell ya . lol.
Yep. Remember, Berra was the Yankee left fielder when Maz hit his homer. They had both Berra and Elston Howard, and they both frequently played the outfield when not catching.
In the early 70s Sangy was damn near as good as bench. Fisk, Simmons and Munson came later. Sangy was absolutely as good or better than Freehan. Remember I am talking about that short time before that silly experiment putting him right field.
And, going by All Star selections, voted by fans with those little cards, to rate player quality is rather dubious.
Bench was gold standard. Simmons a great hitter but don't remember that he was superlative otherwise. Munson was a true bulldog, the heart of those yankee teams. Fisk was very good on a team of other great players; don't recall if he made much impact after moving to the White Sox (other than looking like a doofus in those weird flouncy uniforms with the culotte-looking pants). Gene Tenace, Steve Yeager were pretty good. Later, the guy for the Expos (drawing a blank). I don't even remember the other name bandied above.
In comparo, Sanguillen was more athletic than most of them, maybe not as great throwing out runners as Bench, and a streaky undisciplined hitter but a really good one much of the time. He kept down another pretty good one, Milt May (one reason they felt they could try the right field gambit). Maybe being one of the rare minority/ Hispanic catchers of the time served the team well given they had pitchers like Ellis and Ramon Hernandez.
Interesting look back.
Manny was good, but I am not sure he was even a top 10 catcher at that time.
No, he wasn't nearly as good as Bench. Bench lead the league in home runs and RBIs that year. He hit .270/.345/.587. The notion that Sanguillen was almost that good is silly. He hit .298/.322/.404 that year. In the year before the switch Fisk was not only rookie of the year, he finished 4th in the MVP voting (.293/.370/.538). Simmons was younger, but he hit .303/.336/.465 that year. Munson wasn't as good that year, but it was his third full season in the league (with another partial year as well).
Like I said, it's great that we all have our favorites. And Sanguillen was a good catcher. But he was never a great catcher, and he played at a time when there actually were great catchers playing the game.
Fisk played for the White Sox for a long time, which maybe helps explain why people forget that he was 33 years old by the time he went there. Of course he wasn't as good with them as he was with the Red Sox. But he did have some really good years there, especially considering his age. Look up his numbers from 88, 89 and 90, when he was 40, 41 and 42 years old and still catching quite a bit.
I am sure he was. I am only talking about a small period in his career in the early 70s. Not his whole career.
Manny was the second best catcher in the National League early in the 1970’s, but by the mid-1970’s Ted Simmons was clearly the second best catcher behind Bench.
Simmons belongs in the Hall if Fame.
- His 50.1 JAWS score ranks 10th all-time at catcher. Every player ahead of him — with the exception of Joe Mauer — is currently in the Hall of Fame. Mauer is not yet eligible. Gabby Hartnett, Buck Ewing and Ernie Lombardi all rank slightly lower on the list at catcher, and all are in the Hall of Fame.
- Simmons’ 54.2 fWAR ranks ninth all-time at catcher. Every player ahead of him is in the Hall of Fame. He had a better career batting average than Johnny Bench, Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk. His .348 on-base percentage is better than Bench, Carter, Fisk and Ivan Rodriguez. His career average and on-base percentage matches Yogi Berra.
- Career: .285 BA, 248 HR, 1,389 RBI, 2,472 hits
- 1,389 RBI & 2,472 hits are each 2nd most all-time for MLB catchers
- 8 different seasons with 90 or more RBI
- Hit over .300 7 times in his career
Manny was very good, but not nearly as productive as Simmons. In my opinion, the best Pirates catcher in my lifetime was Tony
Pena.
BTW- This has been a fun thread!
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