Isn't Pickett older than Fields? If we're saying that neither Pickett nor Fields were/are in a situation that is possible to thrive in, then I don't know how number of starts would be the determining variable on who is closer to their ceiling.
OT: Justin Fields
- Thread starter mike 301
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Isn't Pickett older than Fields? If we're saying that neither Pickett nor Fields were/are in a situation that is possible to thrive in, then I don't know how number of starts would be the determining variable on who is closer to their ceiling.
Age is only a number when you’re in your mid 20’s. Experience is much more of a commodity. I can’t believe I even have to point that out.
I'm saying that if the situation that is the Steelers (and Bears) offense is so doomed to failure, then what's the difference if you've played ten games in it or a hundred? If it's as bad as you're suggesting, then very little growth would be possible either way.
Well that’s a very good point and one that perhaps Ive made poorly after a couple thousand attempts. It’s why I haven’t made any absolute declarations about Kenny or Justin. Both deserve a chance in new situations. Sadly for Justin, his 2nd chance is with the Steelers. Probably not a great career move. Lol.
Right.
Yes, he is a high end runner for a qb, but while he can zip a lazer a pass w good accuracy to a receiver when there it is a straight line shot, he is very limited in his ability to throw a ball w touch in range.
The miss to Washington in the red zone was a clear example of that. I could have made that throw.
He was very scattershot this game, the color guy flat said he missed all three throws on the one three and out.
I truly get the appeal w his running and think Smith lines that. But, you lose 75% of your passing plays w him.
Nobody said Justin is terrible
He’s also not good .
I also said all along Kenny likely isn’t the answer at qb .
My position is we gave away 2 years of rookie contact control for 1 year of a backup for essentially a similar talent - Justin has better rushing , and Kenny made. Better throws .
Justin also is not the answer . Both are capable QBs
Capable isn’t what this team needs to make and advance in the playoffs .
The job was always Wilson’s.
Russ is a veteran who can process defensive reads and should open up the passing game as a result - fields biggest weakness .
He’s not what he was 10 years ago - but he’s better that what we’ve had since Ben’s shoulder injury .
His inability to make certain throws as you said, is why I don’t get the free pass he gets because “all the tools” and “talents”. How about that pass behind the line of scrimmage the other day? What talents did he possess there? I realize that’s just one small example and QBs are allowed to make bad plays, but that was almost a disaster. Those plays that require touch on the ball around the line of scrimmage is something that I’ve noticed he rarely has. And they count too when evaluating ones “tools”.
Bears offense seems substantially better this year with a rookie QB who is getting better every single game .
Maybe it’s not franchise dependent after all?
I mean - the Steelers relied on offense to win games for well over a decade with Ben at QB .
The offense is dependent on the QB exclusively .
If that’s your position, and I know you’ve made it before, then that’s fair. But too many of your other posts seem to indicate that Kenny was a better QB than Fields, and that’s just baffling to me that anyone would think that. Someone else jumped in and said just that and you gave affirmation. But maybe that’s because of the extra year of control.
I suspect we aren’t that far off on things in spite of the back and forth.
But overall Fields has been a shade more productive than Kenny. And maybe analytics guys think it’s more than just a shade. Heck, there’s a stat called EPA that I’m just learning about and it’s what Vegas money guys use in their line setting and evaluating of teams and players and they have Fields as a top 10 QB and on passing downs a top 5 QB.
The book on Fields like I said even before the preseason is :
Bad at reading defenses
Inaccurate down field passing .
He’s protected the ball since smith has designed the offense around limiting the damage fields can do . But that’s not a winning recipe .
Defense can’t pitch shutouts every game in today’s NFL .
My position hasn’t changed at all .
Fields isn’t a good enough passer because he doesn’t read defenses well and can’t throw receivers open down field .
He throws fastballs exclusively .
That’s doesn’t work .
It’s highlighted on 3rd downs and when we are trailing .
Those are the “weighty downs “ as Tomlin likes to say.
It’s also why he’s making a change .
His legs aren’t enough of an assett
I think he’s best when he has his first read and can throw that fastball quickly and decisively. But I still see that little hitch that slows down his release just a bit. Can’t see him ever being elite. There are only X amount of franchise QBs in the league and then there are a couple dozen bridge guys. And as I see it he’s one of them. But some don’t think he’s even that. At which point I wonder if people realize what the QB play is like all over the league.
You keep saying that, but they're a few spots higher in points per game and a few spots lower in yards per game. It could be attributable something as quirky as the defense giving them better field position. And, oh look at that; they just so happen to be 5th in the league at turnover differential, at +6.
Williams is slightly higher than Fields was last year in Passer Rating, and Fields was slightly higher last year than Williams is in QBR. What's the substantial difference? Plus NFL rosters can turn over quite a bit in one offseason.
We’ll find out how much of an upgrade Russ is over Fields as soon as Sunday night. If preseason performance against scrubs is any indication it’s not likely to go well.
Behind this OL with the leagues least talented wr corp Russ is likely in for a long night. He’d a sack waiting to happen and most of his passes last year were within 5 yards of the Los. Not a recipe for success
Behind this OL with the leagues least talented wr corp Russ is likely in for a long night. He’d a sack waiting to happen and most of his passes last year were within 5 yards of the Los. Not a recipe for success
What will say I did like about Kenny and QBs like him (baker mayfield a Wilson a few years ago as well) is that Gamer .
Despite some athletic or skills lacking - making winning plays when the game is on the line .
On another forum I got into a debate with teh Brian when I said Russel Wilson would be a pro Qb after he led a comeback at Ncsu to beat Pitt .
Brian said he’d be working at foot locker .
Russ may not have IT anymore since Father Time is undefeated -
But it’s worth finding out .
Despite some athletic or skills lacking - making winning plays when the game is on the line .
On another forum I got into a debate with teh Brian when I said Russel Wilson would be a pro Qb after he led a comeback at Ncsu to beat Pitt .
Brian said he’d be working at foot locker .
Russ may not have IT anymore since Father Time is undefeated -
But it’s worth finding out .
He should have been a gamer for the first 57 minutes of those contests. Then he'd still be here.
#GAMER
To clarify, my "position"; it's the stillers suck at running a franchise. They had (and have) no plan for long-term success. Pickett, like Harris were set-up to fail because of the OC, having well below average offensive talent and overpaying on defense.
All of this is to say, no one has a realistic idea if you can win with Pickett but even in that awful situation, he was an over .500 QB. The part that is beyond stupid to me- this was going to be a throw away season regardless of who the QB was- why wouldn't you keep Pickett around for a season to run this Fred Flintstones offense to at least evaluate him under an NFL OC.
Bringing in Fields and Wilson to win 8-9 games then getting blown out by any top half of the letdown league team is just bad leadership.
Would anyone be shocked if Najee's career looks alot like James Connor post stillers?
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Do you respect authority?
I don’t know how much proof anyone needs to make them understand that the philosophy of the franchise in the first half of games is to kick field goals and stay in the game.
Every week we keep hearing them say we need to start faster, yada, yada, yada, and then nothing changes. Maybe it’s the approach that’s set from the top? And then miraculously things change in the 2nd half of games.
I for one am glad Kenny is gone. People get annoyed by the discussion that continues in these parts. But could you imagine what it would be like if Kenny were still here operating in this offense? No thanks.
I said before the season they should have rolled with Pickett for another year. That was when they only acquired Russ and I expected him to be the starter this season. Fields and Pickett and more synonymous to me, in that they're young and still have to prove it, so it's kind of six in one and half a dozen in the other with those to, other than a year difference on the contracts.
And, as curious as I am to see what Russ has, they should still be rolling with Fields to see whether or not he is the future. Not sure what their logic is (keeping the cost down; having someone to compare Fields to; or, most likely, there is no logic).
That's simply not true, though. There are just a few people trying to speak it into existence. They tried opening things up early in these games. The media asked Tomlin multiple times why Pickett couldn't play in the first three quarters like he was some games in the 4th. Tomlin said they were working on addressing it.
They didn't come out and just take the air out of the ball every game; it's just that the scoreboard indicated such so fans created that angle. Go back and watch. They were going deep, etc. early; he just wasn't hitting anything. Except against the Raiders in the first half, but that was about it.
Yeah, because those 59 yards and 2 TDs on the ground shouldn't count right?
I mean, given we are seeing nearly exactly the same thing with fields I’d say it’s a valid observation.
The Bears are scoring 3.5 PPG more this year than last year
The two years with Fields they averaged 21.2 and 19.2 PPG which means over 16% more PPG- which is why they have won 4 games so far , as supposed to 7 all last season .
Sound familiar? Hint he’s averaging 20.7 PPG with the Steelers .
He’s limited as a QB which limits the offense .
Why is that so hard to accept ?
It absolutely is true. Sure they take their shots but if you can’t see tht the offense is more conservative in the first half of games then I don’t know what to tell you. But yeah I know, Tomlin says…
Maybe it’s recency bias with me then, because you’re saying the offense wasn’t conservative under Kenny, but it surely is now. Maybe the coaches had more confidence in Kenny than they do Justin? Is that what you’re saying? Because 3rd and 8 and running a sweep to a practice squad player just so they can kick a 50 yard field goal isn’t exactly putting trust in offense.
Btw, despite all this talk, per espn fields ranks 22nd in passing yards, 25th in TDS, and 20th in QBR. The only meaningful differences between this year and last are passing tds, but everything else is near identical. A lot of his passing yards also came in the second half against Indy when they were down big and went to softer coverage.
The running ability, definitely a bonus. But again, fields has been very lucky to not have about 3-4 more ints…there was one very clear one last week that should have been but was wiped by an awful penalty.
So again, whether it’s Kenny Pickett, Justin fields, or mason, the issue is a combination of the team/philosophy/overall offensive talent than the qb. You put mason or Kenny out there, passing numbers are likely similar. I’d truly argue that I think Kenny would have better passing numbers than fields but I am kind of a Kenny Stan.
The running ability, definitely a bonus. But again, fields has been very lucky to not have about 3-4 more ints…there was one very clear one last week that should have been but was wiped by an awful penalty.
So again, whether it’s Kenny Pickett, Justin fields, or mason, the issue is a combination of the team/philosophy/overall offensive talent than the qb. You put mason or Kenny out there, passing numbers are likely similar. I’d truly argue that I think Kenny would have better passing numbers than fields but I am kind of a Kenny Stan.
I've never claimed he is a good QB. I've been extremely consistent that I don't think Fields or Pickett is a good answer for the future. I was just saying the comparison wasn't really apt, because they are scoring more 3 more points/game while being +6 in TO margin, which is pretty nuts through six games.
Well my post yesterday kinda proves that Kenny’s passing numbers were better. With the injuries at WR and TE last year, I think it’s a wash with not having DJ this year. And I’ll still contend that having Mason Cole at center was a horrible fit for Kenny’s biggest weakness and that’s performing with an interior pass rush in his face every play. With Frazier, they’re already talking about future all-pros and pro bowls as early as next season. But in any event I want to fine tune those stats I pulled yesterday and look at team passing (which subtracts yards lost due to sack I think?) instead of individual QB passing yardage…because I suspect Justin’s legs and avoiding sacks and turning them into gainers probably flips things more solidly in Justin’s favor due to his legs.
All I'm saying is this was addressed multiple times last season. People asked Tomlin/Canada what was so different about the 4th quarter vs the first three. I specifically remember it being addressed after the Rams game. And Tomlin mentioned a few throws that were there early and just weren't made. One was over the top to Pickett's right on the near side of the television sidelines. I think it was DJ who had a step and he threw it out of bounds.
But you guys are suggesting we came out playing ultra conservatively at all times with Pickett until the game is on the line at the end, and we really haven't.
Agreed. Your last part is also why I think that going to Wilson would be a disaster. I think he would get killed back there.
Signing Fields would fit into the current mold for how the Steelers operate. Very cheap and mediocre offense and a Cadillac defense.
It actually is extremely true. It’s been true this year too. I’m not sure what is so hard to see about it?
Fields passing attempts by quarter this season:
1st - 35
2nd - 46
3rd - 40
4th - 39
I mean, yeah - teams push it down the field a little more if they're trailing or trying to beat a clock and absolutely HAVE to.
You gotta tank and get a franchise QB. Otherwise it will be one bridge QB after another. If it’s a QB strong draft, I’d bite the bullet as quickly as possible and tank.
The 9-8 non losing season is such a ridiculous talking point because the biggest reason the Steelers experienced success in the 2000’s is because they had a bad losing season and got Ben. They took their shot 3 years ago with Kenny and they are getting ripped for it. But it’s not every year they are in position to take the top QB in the draft, strong draft or not. I don’t fault them at all. It didn’t work out. Not everyone is as good or lucky as the Packers who seem to get franchise QB after franchise QB. We’ve had one since 1982. And probably because we are almost always drafting in the back half of the draft.
i cant remember what other options we had with the qb situation last year, other than just rolling it back with PIckett. which outside of posters on a pitt message board, really wasnt an option..
Was there an option C that we had that we missed out on? Now we can criticize khan the accountant and even his predecessor and tomlin for being in this mix and deservedly so. but my issues arent with going with fields and wilson for cheap but how we got to this point.
It goes back to just a complete mismanage of the most important position on the field for the better part of 1/2 a decade. and it's just us digging deeper and deeper with knee jerk reactions to fix this qb mess and we just keep digging that hole.
Was there an option C that we had that we missed out on? Now we can criticize khan the accountant and even his predecessor and tomlin for being in this mix and deservedly so. but my issues arent with going with fields and wilson for cheap but how we got to this point.
It goes back to just a complete mismanage of the most important position on the field for the better part of 1/2 a decade. and it's just us digging deeper and deeper with knee jerk reactions to fix this qb mess and we just keep digging that hole.
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I don't even know that you have to tank.
Russell Wilson - 2nd round
Lamar Jackson - Pick 32
Aaron Rodgers - Pick 24
Prescott - 4th round
Hurts - 2nd round
Love - Pick 26
Etc., etc., etc.
And that's not even counting reclamation project guys (what we're currently aiming for) such as Jared Goff.
Bottom line: I think there is at least some flexibility, whereby you don't need to have either the 49ers coaching staff or a top 5 pick in the right year. That said, if they are going to tank for a QB I don't think this would be the season to do it.
Fair to be sure. It’s just more of a crap shoot I guess. But that said even high draft picks are a coin flip.
quinn ewers to the steelers in 2nd round?
I love it, i mean, zero clue if it will happen but i'd love it..
He might be the first QB off the board; he's not lasting to the second. There was a period last season when people were questioning if his shoulder (I think) was permanently shot, so I can't get that out of my head. Don't know a ton about him, though.
Not sure who the other first round guys are. Sanders, potentially Cam Ward, Carson Beck maybe, Milroe maybe (if eligible).... who else? None of those guys would excite me all that much.
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