OT: Pens
- Thread starter mike 301
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One comment when you keep referring to league. Hard to do that this year when so far every team has only been playing the 7 teams in their division.
Ovi would have to learn how to pass better to survive.
Can't wait for this series! Should be great. Did it strike anyone else just how BIG Vegas is??
I saw this suggestion on Twitter the other day... people say the Pens need to get bigger and add size to their lineup. You know who adds size to their lineup? Poulin, Legare, and Zahorna. No need to sacrifice skill when you can have both!
That's certainly part of the evolvement. It is why possibly a Guentzel could moved for some defense/goaltending.
Eh, I don’t know. I’m not ready to give up on him just yet. I see guys like him, Rust, and Kapanen being crucial in the post-Crosby/Malkin era. However, I think I would be willing to part with, say, Zucker or McCann.
Might there be goalies on the market due to the expansion draft? Anyone have two where they would need to expose one? Could trade to get some return vs losing for nothing.
It's not giving up on him. It is just to make trades, sometimes you have to give up good players. That's not giving up....it is dealing from a position of strength to shore up a weakness. Trading James Neal at the time seemed stupid for Patrick Hornquist, it was the right move. We traded Mark Recchi and Paul Coffey for Rick Tocchet, Kjell Samuelsson and Ken Wregget. That is the exact type of deal the Pens need to make. You usually have to give to get. It is not because you don't like a player or are "giving up" it is what the market demands.
Good points. I guess I’m torn. If Guentzel or someone of his equivalent is shipped out, I’d have to hope we acquire someone similar in age that can be part of a future core. At the same time, we have a core right now and need to maximize it while we still have it.
I also think I’ve just always been reluctant about changing the dynamic of this team. People said we needed to get bigger and more physical after we won back to back Stanley Cups. Why not double down on the speed and skill we already have? To me, it just seemed like we were trying to solve an issue that wasn’t really there. I know this isn’t the point you were making, but still.
John Cullen was something like 3rd in the league in scoring when the Pens traded him.
If you want something good you have to give up something good.
the irony to that trade was that EJ was given a directive to trade Ron Francis within a couple days. Throw in Ulf and Grant Jennings and give up Zalapski and Jeff Parker with Cullen.
What a deal that turned out to be.
The trading deadline was on a Monday. The Friday before the Whalers' owner told EJ that if Francis was still a Whaler on Tuesday that Johnson wouldn't be.
And Zalapski was considered one of the best young defensemen in the world let alone NHL (still had the Soviet influence then). Again, to reiterate, you have to give up to get. People think we "stole" Francis and Ulfie, but at the time, people thought maybe Hartford won the deal. Also, we think that Neal Huntingdon is out there, ready to trade 3 primo young players/prospect for an aging, over the hill veteran. That rarely happens. It does, but it is rare.
The eye test didn't agree with this article, but I see the logic, and I do think advanced stats have value.
www.pensburgh.com
Jake Guentzel, the playoffs, and what went wrong
Jake Guentzel has just three goals in his past 14 playoff games and this is where narratives get started.
www.pensburgh.com
Goals. Assists. Wins. That's my advanced analytic metrics for top line forwards. Luck is a skill too.The eye test didn't agree with this article, but I see the logic, and I do think advanced stats have value.
Jake Guentzel, the playoffs, and what went wrong
Jake Guentzel has just three goals in his past 14 playoff games and this is where narratives get started.
Yeah - it's hard to feel good about Guenzel moving forward. Maybe the extra year of recovery will make a difference with his shoulder....
He left some space there for a Malkin trade. But it might be a good time to trade him.
The problem is....what could you get for him? 1 year left, $10 million cap hit? What could you get that would make your team better? This is why I feel a Jake Guentzel will be moved. He would be desirable to many teams. The problem with the Penguins, all of their wingers are the same. At least in physical stature. Same with their defense for the most part. They are all constructed pretty much the same. They don't need goons per se, they do need some size and strength.
By the way, anyone thinking the Pens have it cornered on bad goalie plays in OT, the Isles just one upped us. Yikes. I was watching the game and I still never saw that goal coming. That is deflating.
To me it is obvious. The Pens need to make some changes, but I don't think moving Letang and Malkin at this point gets you any return that helps...now. So.....with these two players the options are limited:
1) Let them play out this year and if things go bad in the regular season, then you can trade them at the deadline to a contender.
2) Sign them for a team friendly deal (2 years) with a more generous no movement clause. If either balks, then you are back at point 1.
1) Let them play out this year and if things go bad in the regular season, then you can trade them at the deadline to a contender.
2) Sign them for a team friendly deal (2 years) with a more generous no movement clause. If either balks, then you are back at point 1.
I didn’t see the Isles goalie play you’re referring to but just hearing about raises the ire a little.....whatever it was, why couldn’t he have done it in one of our 2 OT games!!
I don’t know. That was about as perfectly placed of a shot as you could have. Varlamov was pretty darn good all game long.
Agree, both goalies were excellent in last night's game ......
Varlamov did make a technical error on the OT goal by Marchand which led to the score, however, it was a perfect shot by Marchand that beat Varlamov (it hit up high where the crossbar meets the far post and deflected into the goal) .......
If anyone can tell me what technical mistake that Varlamov made on the play that led to the goal, you get bonus points ...... check the highlight video of the game below ...... the play starts at the 8:20 mark and the best view of the mistake Varlamov made can be seen from the 8:49 mark to the 8:52 mark (start and stop the play at the 8:49 mark) ......
I do want to ask, why do goalies go to their knees and you expose over the shoulder glove hand? Why not stand tall and close off the post and give really nothing to shoot at?
You are basically asking why do goalies use the rVH technique for post play instead of standing up on the post ..... it's a good question and I actually discussed this in more detail in post # 1771 in this thread when discussing Goal #4 from that game ......
The short answer is that goalies use this technique (rVH) on post play because it gives much better rebound control, better mobility then some techniques (when moving off the post if there is a pass to the slot for example), and better coverage of some of the puck carriers options (better coverage in stopping wrap arounds for example) then standing up......
The rVH technique is best for stopping wrap arounds or walk outs from behind the net close to the crease (close to the goalie) where it is very hard to elevate the puck over the goalies near (post) shoulder ...... the opening over the near (post) shoulder is the main problem with the rVH technique and it is easier to hit that opening on a shot if you are somewhat farther from the goalie ...... players are becoming much better at hitting this opening ......some think the rVH technique is over used and on bad angle shots far from the net (like on Marchand's game winner last night), it may be better for the goalie to stay up as the advantages of the rVH become less (some think that the rVH technique may go out of vogue or at least be used less in the future, others disagree, time will tell) .......
As mentioned, the main problem with the rVH technique assuming it is performed properly by the goalie (and it is somewhat difficult to learn and perform) is the opening over the near post shoulder ( so over the blocker shoulder on the blocker side post and over the glove side shoulder on the glove side post) ...... the fact that Varlamov was on his blocker side post on Marchand's shot and the puck went in over the glove side is a clue to the technique mistake that the goalie made in performing the rVH technique on that goal.
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He has a full no movement clause in his contract so he would have to agree to be moved. There were reports that that almost happened after the 2019 flameout against the isles with a prospective trade to Florida but the Pens and Malkin talked things out and decided to move forward.
Rob Rossi was on The Fan the other day and essentially said that the Pens best shot at this point is to keep the core and hope whatever changes they can make turn out to be the magic elixir that brings a deep/championship run. The largest point of this position is what you suggest Recruits, they're not likely to get sufficient return on any trades to "come out ahead" and have a better chance.
I'd consider shopping Rust. Not because he's not good but because he's likely to cost a lot after next season - maybe too much to keep - and also his trade value might be the highest it's ever been. They have to hope they can get Seattle to take a bad contract off their hands.
What the Pens really need to happen this offseason is for Sid, Geno and Letang to renegotiate their deals (extensions for Geno and Letang) which results in freeing up about $10 million for next season which (along with a few ship outs) allows them to bring in another impact player or two. Since that won't happen and since Sully is coming back, how can you expect a different result next playoff season (assuming they qualify).
Yeah, that is why I don't get playing that from a shot that is far out. Because they aren't deking or trying a wrap around, I would think anywhere outside of the circles, the goalie should be "big" and on angle and basically give nothing to shoot at. Now they may try and shoot at your pads or a deflection, but so be it. Don't let a puck beat you clean.
Yes. I mean it is obvious that there needs to be some changes, 3 years, 3 first round losses, and mostly rather meek losses. Malkin and Letang now, unlike in 2018 or 2019 would not bring much to help, unless you were deciding to burn it down and rebuild which they aren't.
Everyone is against trading a Guentzel or even Rust or even a John Marino.......well here's a clue hockey fans........ trading Marcus Patterson or Evan Rodrigues is not going to bring you Seth Jones or Brayden Point in return. You have to give to get. I sense many Pens fans (not necessarily on here) only have been around the last 12-15 years. YOU CAN'T TRADE JAKE GUENTZEL, HE'S A 40 GOAL SCORER! The Pens traded Mark Recchi and Paul Coffey (both Hall of Famers) in their prime. The Pens have traded many of great players for other great players.
The Pens are constructed with just too much of the same. I was hard on Rutherfor this offseason for constructing a roster of 5'11" wingers and 180lb defensemen. Brian Burke was on the Fan today, and let's just say, he knows. He saw it. This team needs to be bigger and more physical. Not goon, but a team that can inflict harm itself with hard checks.
Haven't seen the video yet but if the goal went high glove side he either wasn't square to the shooter (too flat on the goal line) or had the glove too low.
