OT: Pirates Ke'Bryan Hayes a bust?

[PittPoker]

What do you guys think of him at this point? Cheap ass Pirates signed the dude to a $70 million dollar + contract and let's be real, he can't hit at all and has little to no power at all. 2 straight seasons of below avg hitting. In 2021 he hit .257 with 38 RBI'S and in 2022 he hit .244 with 41 RBI's. Both seasons very few HR's. And in 6 games so far in 2023 he is hitting a very impressive. 100!!! 2 for 20 with an RBI.

Look I get it he is a damn good defensive 3rd baseman(even though he led the NL in errors by a 3rd basemen last season) but I am sure a lot more was expected of him at the plate. Especially after his great 6 weeks in 2020 during the covid season. Unfortunately he has been a big dud. He can't hit. Shelton now has him batting 6th and 7th so far this season with 1 game at leadoff against a lefty.

For me the contract is looking like another bad decision like the Polanco one. Except this is a much bigger one than that. Hayes has been a major disappointment and I can't help to think he will end up being remembered here in Pittsburgh as another overhyped prospect that didn't work out and was a bust.

 

[TheChair]

What do you guys think of him at this point? Cheap ass Pirates signed the dude to a $70 million dollar + contract and let's be real, he can't hit at all and has little to no power at all. 2 straight seasons of below avg hitting. In 2021 he hit .257 with 38 RBI'S and in 2022 he hit .244 with 41 RBI's. Both seasons very few HR's. And in 6 games so far in 2023 he is hitting a very impressive. 100!!! 2 for 20 with an RBI.

Look I get it he is a damn good defensive 3rd baseman(even though he led the NL in errors by a 3rd basemen last season) but I am sure a lot more was expected of him at the plate. Especially after his great 6 weeks in 2020 during the covid season. Unfortunately he has been a big dud. He can't hit. Shelton now has him batting 6th and 7th so far this season with 1 game at leadoff against a lefty.

For me the contract is looking like another bad decision like the Polanco one. Except this is a much bigger one than that. Hayes has been a major disappointment and I can't help to think he will end up being remembered here in Pittsburgh as another overhyped prospect that didn't work out and was a bust.

It is a little early in the season to complain about the guy. Let’s give it more than 5 games.

Also, relative to MLB in total, I know this may sound crazy, but that contract is not really that much. It is a lot for the Pirates because they pay no one but for baseball in total, if he just fields like he did last year and hits average, it is market.

 

[PittPoker]

It is a little early in the season to complain about the guy. Let’s give it more than 5 games.

Also, relative to MLB in total, I know this may sound crazy, but that contract is not really that much. It is a lot for the Pirates because they pay no one but for baseball in total, if he just fields like he did last year and hits average, it is market.

Disagree. His offensive production is terrible and has been terrible. And at $10 million a season he needs to be better.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

he needs to do better, has like 1 or 2 hits this year but i do like him. this is the year though, everyone thinks how young he is but he's 26 years old, not exactly a spring chicken..

love his glove and arm at 3rd and he is making contact so far, had some line drives to right center last night that in a real MLB field, would have most likely been gap shots..

so i disagree with you guys that he is a bust as of today but the clock is ticking. if he cant hit for average, we know he cant hit for power, then it's not good... fingers crossed he proves us wrong with a good year..

 

[Ranson1989]

I think with his glove, his value will skyrocket on a playoff team. hopfully we see that here. A strong defensive third baseman is a nice thing to have in tight postseason games.

 

[h2p_5150]

Wait he's 26 already? He's not really young at this point- he's in his prime right now. Dude probably just is what he is at this point. That deal is pretty cheap 10 million dollars a year is nothing.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

I know Pantherlair is full of old stubborn people with no patience for advanced metrics, but Hayes has really good peripheral numbers. His average exit velocity is good. His hard hit ball rate is good. However he hits way too many balls into the ground, which explains the lousy actual results.

If he changes his swing a bit while maintaining that same quality of contact, he can become a much better hitter.

But as of right now his career numbers speak for themselves

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I know Pantherlair is full of old stubborn people with no patience for advanced metrics, but Hayes has really good peripheral numbers. His average exit velocity is good. His hard hit ball rate is good. However he hits way too many balls into the ground, which explains the lousy actual results.

If he changes his swing a bit while maintaining that same quality of contact, he can become a much better hitter.

But as of right now his career numbers speak for themselves

at some point, hitting hard balls at people will turn into hitting hard balls away from people. in theory anyways..

despite his horrible average, he doesnt look lost at the plate. you are right, the fancy metrics can be summed up as he is getting good contact. so that is a sign to be optimistic, i think.

 

[Pitt2009]

I get the knock on Hayes at the plate but I wouldn’t call him a bust. He is an elite defender and above average base runner.

I think injuries have played a role in his poor average and power. He hits the ball hard, but it’s difficult to have a consistent launch angle with a tight lower back.

 

[Ski11585]

So I'd like to point out that he's actually not had two straight seasons of below average hitting.

The MLB league average in 2021 was .244 and Hayes hit .257. In 2022, the league average was .243 and Hayes hit .244.

He's also been above league average in OBP both years.

He's also only had 20 at bats this year so I don't know how anyone can make a meaningful assessment of his hitting with such a small sample size.

 

[PittPoker]

So I'd like to point out that he's actually not had two straight seasons of below average hitting.

The MLB league average in 2021 was .244 and Hayes hit .257. In 2022, the league average was .243 and Hayes hit .244.

He's also been above league average in OBP both years.

He's also only had 20 at bats this year so I don't know how anyone can make a meaningful assessment of his hitting with such a small sample size.

He is a bust.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

He is a bust.

the pirates PR Team pushing him out to be the next superstar was a tad over zealous. not sure if it was a conscious effort by them or just something by pirate fans that took off but we all heard his name for years as a top prospect and just expected something a little more than a guy batting .244 with little power..

maybe the blame is us for building him up to something he never was..

my buddy calls him a black john cangelosi. kind of funny cause i think it was an exaggerated insult but honestly, it's looking more and more accurate..

 

[NCanton Panther]

I get the knock on Hayes at the plate but I wouldn’t call him a bust. He is an elite defender and above average base runner.

I think injuries have played a role in his poor average and power. He hits the ball hard, but it’s difficult to have a consistent launch angle with a tight lower back.

He may not be a bust, and his defense is definitely a plus but lets be honest, a 3B/corner infielder has to provide significantly more offensive production on any team wanting to be a successful playoff caliber team.

He’s had 2 below par years which may be partly due to injuries. Nonetheless, time is definitely ticking for him to start ramping it up at the plate.

 

[Ski11585]

He is a bust.

C'mon Poker. At least try to have a substantive rebuttal, especially when I point out that things in your OP are actually not true.

 

[NCanton Panther]

the pirates PR Team pushing him out to be the next superstar was a tad over zealous. not sure if it was a conscious effort by them or just something by pirate fans that took off but we all heard his name for years as a top prospect and just expected something a little more than a guy batting .244 with little power..

maybe the blame is us for building him up to something he never was..

my buddy calls him a black john cangelosi. kind of funny cause i think it was an exaggerated insult but honestly, it's looking more and more accurate..

I’m sure I don’t need to list the names of the handful of other top prospects pushed by the PR team that unfortunately haven’t lived up to the expectations.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I’m sure I don’t need to list the names of the handful of other top prospects pushed by the PR team that unfortunately haven’t lived up to the expectations.

CHad Hermanson could walk on water according to a pirate scout lol.

 

[NCanton Panther]

C'mon Poker. At least try to have a substantive rebuttal, especially when I point out that things in your OP are actually not true.

C’mon Ski, you also have to come up with something better than those batting averages you listed relative to league averages in order to make any substantial positive argument in Hayes favor.

 

[Pitt2009]

CHad Hermanson could walk on water according to a pirate scout lol.

My favorite was Littlefield saying Bullington had the upside of a mid rotation starter after taking him first overall.

 

[Ski11585]

C’mon Ski, you also have to come up with something better than those batting averages you listed relative to league averages in order to make any substantial positive argument in Hayes favor.

I mean. If you want to make the argument that a centerpiece for the Pirates' future should be above league average. That's fine with me. But saying someone is below average when they literally aren't isn't a convincing point.

 

[Ronnyp91]

So I'd like to point out that he's actually not had two straight seasons of below average hitting.

The MLB league average in 2021 was .244 and Hayes hit .257. In 2022, the league average was .243 and Hayes hit .244.

He's also been above league average in OBP both years.

He's also only had 20 at bats this year so I don't know how anyone can make a meaningful assessment of his hitting with such a small sample size.

His 3.0 WAR in 2022 would put him as the 101st best player in MLB.

 

[thirteenNINE]

You lunatics. Hayes isn't just the best defensive third baseman in the game, he could be the best overall defensive player in the game. I don't care if he hits Fungo batting practice literally every at bat he's still worth infinitely more than we are paying him.

 

[PittPoker]

You lunatics. Hayes isn't just the best defensive third baseman in the game, he could be the best overall defensive player in the game. I don't care if he hits Fungo batting practice literally every at bat he's still worth infinitely more than we are paying him.

Sorry dude, worst post I have ever read from you. Just an awful take.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You lunatics. Hayes isn't just the best defensive third baseman in the game, he could be the best overall defensive player in the game. I don't care if he hits Fungo batting practice literally every at bat he's still worth infinitely more than we are paying him.

Six years from now he'll be making $8 million.

It's as if people don't understand how much money even decent MLB players make.

 

[TheChair]

Six years from now he'll be making $8 million.

It's as if people don't understand how much money even decent MLB players make.

People have no concept because the Pirates really are that cheap.

 

[PittPoker]

Six years from now he'll be making $8 million.

It's as if people don't understand how much money even decent MLB players make.

The Pirates are 1 of the cheapest organizations around. That Hayes contract was either the 2nd or 3rd biggest contract they ever gave a player. Or maybe it was the biggest. They expected him to be productive at the plate and do well offensively. This "amazing" defensive 3rd baseman was 2nd in the NL in errors by a 3rd basemen last season. For most of the season he led the league in errors at the position. He can't hit for nothin and has little to no power. If we had a solid bunch of other players in the lineup that were good to really good hitters than maybe the Hayes contract would be okay. But when an organization commits $70 million to a guy that does next to nothing offensively year after year? It's terrible.

Hayes will be remembered here just like Polanco when it is all said and done. An overhyped prospect that was a bust. So far in 6 games he's 3 for 26, the worst of all the starters. Just par for the course from him.

 

[Ski11585]

This thread is funny.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Pirates are 1 of the cheapest organizations around. That Hayes contract was either the 2nd or 3rd biggest contract they ever gave a player. Or maybe it was the biggest. They expected him to be productive at the plate and do well offensively. This "amazing" defensive 3rd baseman was 2nd in the NL in errors by a 3rd basemen last season. For most of the season he led the league in errors at the position. He can't hit for nothin and has little to no power. If we had a solid bunch of other players in the lineup that were good to really good hitters than maybe the Hayes contract would be okay. But when an organization commits $70 million to a guy that does next to nothing offensively year after year? It's terrible.

Hayes will be remembered here just like Polanco when it is all said and done. An overhyped prospect that was a bust. So far in 6 games he's 3 for 26, the worst of all the starters. Just par for the course from him.

Everyone here knows that you over react to the slightest things, so it's no surprise you're so concerned about someone's stats six games into the season.

BTW, Brian Reynolds is on pace to hit .417/.444/1.000 with 108 home runs and 189 rbis. The greatest player ever, right?

Or maybe we wait until they've played more than six games to make a determination?

So let me ask you this. Which is better, a third baseman who has 100 balls hit to them and makes 95 plays and has 5 errors, or a third baseman who has the same 100 balls hit to them, makes 90 plays, has two errors and lets the other eight balls go past him for a base hit? Cause that second guy has a lot fewer errors, but it's pretty clear which of those two is more likely to help you win.

 

[PittPoker]

Everyone here knows that you over react to the slightest things, so it's no surprise you're so concerned about someone's stats six games into the season.

BTW, Brian Reynolds is on pace to hit .417/.444/1.000 with 108 home runs and 189 rbis. The greatest player ever, right?

Or maybe we wait until they've played more than six games to make a determination?

So let me ask you this. Which is better, a third baseman who has 100 balls hit to them and makes 95 plays and has 5 errors, or a third baseman who has the same 100 balls hit to them, makes 90 plays, has two errors and lets the other eight balls go past him for a base hit? Cause that second guy has a lot fewer errors, but it's pretty clear which of those two is more likely to help you win.

I'm not overreacting to his first 6 games, I'm just pointing out he sucked at the plate his last 2 seasons and so far he sucks all the worse. You were probably the same guy praising Jose Tabata and Polanco as well, years into their contracts claiming the Pirates made out like a bandit.

 

[PittPoker]

So let me ask you this. Which is better, a third baseman who has 100 balls hit to them and makes 95 plays and has 5 errors, or a third baseman who has the same 100 balls hit to them, makes 90 plays, has two errors and lets the other eight balls go past him for a base hit? Cause that second guy has a lot fewer errors, but it's pretty clear which of those two is more likely to help you win.

Um also since you and some others claim Hayes is so awesome defensively just was wondering if he won a gold glove yet? Anyone anyone. I mean you love this awful contract and since he can't hit he should at least be a perreniel gold glover no?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I'm not overreacting to his first 6 games, I'm just pointing out he sucked at the plate his last 2 seasons and so far he sucks all the worse. You were probably the same guy praising Jose Tabata and Polanco as well, years into their contracts claiming the Pirates made out like a bandit.

Jose Tabata never made more than $4.5 million in a season. The fact that you think that his contract in some way crippled the Pirates doesn't mean that it did, it's just another example of you know really understanding what happened.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Um also since you and some others claim Hayes is so awesome defensively just was wondering if he won a gold glove yet? Anyone anyone. I mean you love this awful contract and since he can't hit he should at least be a perreniel gold glover no?

Good god, you think that winning a gold glove is proof of defensive excellence?

What was that old Abe Lincoln line again?

 

[PittPoker]

Good god, you think that winning a gold glove is proof of defensive excellence?

What was that old Abe Lincoln line again?

Cool so what you are saying is that when it's all said and done, Ke'Bryan Hayes will be remembered in Pittsburgh for? All-Star games? Doubt he makes any. Batting avg? RBI's? HR's? Any damn thing offensively? Uh no.

Gold gloves? Maybe he'll finally get a couple who knows. Defense on the field? Sure, so the Pirates(for them very big) $70 million dollar contract for Ke'Bryan Hayes got them uh some great defense. Wonderful.

I got warm and fuzzies thinking about all the upcoming memories.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Cool so what you are saying is that when it's all said and done, Ke'Bryan Hayes will be remembered in Pittsburgh for? All-Star games? Doubt he makes any. Batting avg? RBI's? HR's? Any damn thing offensively? Uh no.

Gold gloves? Maybe he'll finally get a couple who knows. Defense on the field? Sure, so the Pirates(for them very big) $70 million dollar contract for Ke'Bryan Hayes got them uh some great defense. Wonderful.

I got warm and fuzzies thinking about all the upcoming memories.

To be honest, he'll probably be most remembered for the stupid over reactions he caused in Pirate fans.

 

[Drew1208]

I officially want more pirate threads after seeing this one.
Entertaining stuff

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Also at this point it's pretty clear that poker does not quite understand what the definition of a bust is for MLB players. A supplemental first rounder that produces 8 WAR in three seasons ain't a bust. Honestly any supplemental first rounder who makes the big leagues means the draft is a success to some extent. Half of those picks don't even make the big leagues.

Also hayes made his debut on a historically awful baseball team in 2020. Of course the team was going to try and drum up excitement about him....who else are they going to talk about?

 

[NCanton Panther]

You lunatics. Hayes isn't just the best defensive third baseman in the game, he could be the best overall defensive player in the game. I don't care if he hits Fungo batting practice literally every at bat he's still worth infinitely more than we are paying him.

Hayes is on a big contract by Pirates standards but a really really cheap contract by MLB standards. And it has been acknowledged herein that he is a strong plus defensively.

But none of the above discounts the fact that you need way more offensively out of a corner infielder. So instead of calling people lunatics why don’t you try to objectively look at or discuss the overall picture.

 

[Ski11585]

Hayes is on a big contract by Pirates standards but a really really cheap contract by MLB standards. And it has been acknowledged herein that he is a strong plus defensively.

But none of the above discounts the fact that you need way more offensively out of a corner infielder. So instead of calling people lunatics why don’t you try to objectively look at or discuss the overall picture.

I don’t think calling Hayes a bust is operating from a place of objective analysis.

 

[PittPoker]

I don’t think calling Hayes a bust is operating from a place of objective analysis.

But he is a bust. Teams don't sign 3rd baseman to $10 million dollar a year contracts and offer 1 of the biggest contracts in team history because they play good defense.

 

[Ski11585]

But he is a bust. Teams don't sign 3rd baseman to $10 million dollar a year contracts and offer 1 of the biggest contracts in team history because they play good defense.

We clearly have different definitions of bust. A bust can’t see the starting lineup. Hayes is an elite defender and, contrary to the claims in your OP, hits above league average!

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Cole tucker was a bust. Chad Hermansen was a bust. Tony Sanchez was a bust. Bryan Burlington was a bust. A 32nd overall pick with 8 career WAR? Not a bust