OT: Pirates
- Thread starter pittdan77
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The McCutchen trade looks a lot better. Reynolds is having an amazing rookie year!
Crick is a solid bullpen arm as well.
Newman is establishing himself as the shortstop for a long time.
Bell having a great season, enjoy him while you can.
Marte coming around.
That's about it.
The starters have all fizzled out, as good as the Cutch deal was, the Archer deal was the opposite.
Vasquez is good, but what good is a closer for a team that rarely has a lead?
One big fat MEH!
Crick is a solid bullpen arm as well.
Newman is establishing himself as the shortstop for a long time.
Bell having a great season, enjoy him while you can.
Marte coming around.
That's about it.
The starters have all fizzled out, as good as the Cutch deal was, the Archer deal was the opposite.
Vasquez is good, but what good is a closer for a team that rarely has a lead?
One big fat MEH!
Here's the thing. Without ranting, chanting "Nutting Sucks!" , and rehashing the same ol same ol, if I was a consultant hired by Nutting for "advice", here's what I would do.
First off, "sell the team" is not an option, he is not. So you got to focus on what you can do.
1) Fire Everyone!!!!!! Well, I mean baseball operations wise. The Pirates scouts are getting little through the draft, their development of players poor. It is time for Neal, and all his people to go. All the scouts, all the minor coaches, whatever is being looked at for player qualities and development is not working. No pitchers are coming up or in the pipeline, the very best talented pitchers die here, they move on and be great elsewhere, that should be a flag to the obvious that the issues are internal. Josh Bell was a lucky godsend, but by the time you get enough talent around him, he will be gone. Hire a new GM, new director of scouting and all that entails.
2) Fire the coaches. It is not that this is all Hurdle's fault, but a new voice/message, new strategy and ideas are needed.
3) Embrace a rebuild. Be honest with the fans, say merely finishing .500 is not a goal, we have to rebuild this system and get as much young talent as we can. But be honest, don't BS. You will take a PR hit, but you are already taking PR hits anyways, don't be stupid and try to change this approach to appease the fans because that leads to horrible decisions like the Archer trade. Be honest, stop trying to BS fans, they are pissed, this just pisses them off more. You are already taking attendance hits, what's a little more. Get a real plan to rebuild and stick to it for a few years. You may only win 55 games next year, so what. What is really the difference between 75 and 55 if you have no plan.
4) Trade Vasquez. Put him on the market now. Let a bidding war begin. Hopefully with a new GM, this will be automatic, but the goal is not to get the most major league ready prospects, but the BEST prospects, as in ceiling/upside. And again, start the trade talks now. Don't wait until the end of July and paint yourself in a corner and risk injury. Also, this gives you time to turn deals if they are not attractive enough.
5) Trade Marte. He is hot, his numbers are up, he won't return as much as Vasquez, but yeah. Play Dickerson, hope he gets hot......
6) Look at trading pretty much anyone/everyone. The system is poor, there isn't enough in the system coming up.
7) Josh Bell. I am not saying trade him, but I am saying listen. He likely is going to have a 40 HR 1plus OPS season this year. He was horrible last year. Maybe this offseason see what you can get. You don't have to, he is under control. But again, if he continues on this curve, he will be a $250 million player when he gets to free agency status.
The key here, you go for the BEST TALENT, the best prospects, not the closest MLB ready. If a team has a top 50 overall prospect who is 19 or 20 years old, in A or AA, you take him over a 24 year prospect who is like the franchise's 10th best prospect but has some MLB time or ready to play, but is not projected to be a star. Go for the stars!!! Here's the great thing about baseball players on entry level contracts, they all cost the same whether they are a top prospect or a middling prospect in their first few years of team control. My problem with the current management, they are always bandaiding things, instead of accepting that sometimes you got to break it a rebuild before you can turn it around. Look at Atlanta, look at Houston.
Oh and one other thing, payroll is not an issue when you truly embrace a rebuild. But when you finally go into true contender status, you spend ala the Brewers.
That's my advice.
As long as Nutting is the owner, it's all rearranging the deck chairs.
He's content with things as they are. Hurdle and Huntington are his boys, they are content with his business model, they aren't going anywhere and neither are the Pirates.
He's content with things as they are. Hurdle and Huntington are his boys, they are content with his business model, they aren't going anywhere and neither are the Pirates.
I believe nothing will change about the way the Pirates do business unless (1) Bob Nutting changes HIS mind, or (2) the financial structure of MLB is altered in some way so that Nutting doesn't find it to be as profitable an enterprise. Neither is likely to happen.
But... if Nutting DID want a fresh start with the fans, I think he'd have to purge his administration of Coonnelly and Huntington. I've believed from the beginning that Coonelly was sent to Pittsburgh from his job in the MLB offices to "keep the Pirates in line". MLB did not need a rabble rousing small market owner, Not that Nutting ever had that inclination, but Frank the Company Man ensured that the Pirates would know their place. And Neal just follows orders and plays a very cost-contained, cautious GM game. Getting rid of them would be a clear turning of the page. Assuming, of course, that the replacements bring different ideas to the table.
But... if Nutting DID want a fresh start with the fans, I think he'd have to purge his administration of Coonnelly and Huntington. I've believed from the beginning that Coonelly was sent to Pittsburgh from his job in the MLB offices to "keep the Pirates in line". MLB did not need a rabble rousing small market owner, Not that Nutting ever had that inclination, but Frank the Company Man ensured that the Pirates would know their place. And Neal just follows orders and plays a very cost-contained, cautious GM game. Getting rid of them would be a clear turning of the page. Assuming, of course, that the replacements bring different ideas to the table.
Next years team:
Diaz/Stallings
Bell
Newman/Frazier
Tucker
Moran/Hayes (to start)
Renyolds/Marte/Polanco/Osuna
Williams/Musgrove/Archer - 2 of Kuhl, Keller, Brault - Taillon ?
Stratton/Holmes
Vasquez, Kela, CrIck, Rodriquez, Santana or Feliz
That is not a bad place to start before any off season additions
I'm not even sure that the scouts are to blame. I mean for the most part the Pirates are drafting guys that "belong" getting drafted where they are picked. They aren't going off the board for the 40th best player when they pick 15th or a 5th round guy in the 2nd round or something like that. They are picking guys in rounds where the general consensus is that they belong.
And then they get into this system and it all falls apart. I don't know, I don't think there's any way to know, but I think that most of these guys who flame out before they get to the majors are development issues rather than talent issues.
And Josh Bell would be the perfect example of that. Finally, after all this time, the Pirates paired him with a hitting coach who decided that a guy who can hit the ball a mile, a mile and a half on a good day, shouldn't be trying to hit grounders through the infield or line drive singles to the outfield, he ought to be trying to hit the ball a mile and a half. And lo and behold, he's been hitting the crap out of the ball. That isn't a coincidence. That's a complete change in the hitting philosophy at the major league level. They need that change to filter down through the whole system. Allow guys whose best quality with the bat is to hit the ball a mile to try to hit the ball a mile.
I get frustrated with the Pirates as much as the next guy...but the Cutch deal is the least talked about good trade in recent history, and the Archer deal hating is overblown. It’s still poor especially if Glassnow gets healthy and continues to be good - but it gets blown out of proportion here a bit. But Funny how no one has said a thing about Austin Meadows crashing down to earth. After being obsessed with him, people stopped paying attention now that he has sucked for 6 weeks. He is basically having the same season as Marte.
Also, I believe the team has won 7 out of Archers last 8 starts. That can be deceiving, as he has not been great. But he is starting to be a contributor.
So moral of the story - Reynolds > Meadows.
People don’t love to put it that way partially because Cutch was beloved, and Meadows became synonymous with fulfilling the narrative around poor Pirates trades. However, when looked at in aggregate with the Cole trade, it might not be so bad after all.
Archer's not great. But, the Archer trade was the exact type of trade people were clamoring for the last several years because it gave the illusion of "trying", and at the end of the day that's all people care about. Teams have no interest in paying free agents anymore, yet having a bloated payroll with bad contracts is a sign of commitment. You reap what you sow there, IMO. Give the fans what they want.
The bullpen found solid footing in a hurry. Really impressed with Newman as of late and we have great offense from our infield, even if the defense is a bit suspect. Outfield is set, too. There wasn't an easy out in our lineup last night outside of the pitcher.
Only thing this team needs is another reliable starter until Taillon gets back.
Diaz and Stallings is a good pair of catchers. Wonder what happens when Cervelli gets back. He should probably retire at this point as the concussions are only going to occur with more frequency now.
Only thing this team needs is another reliable starter until Taillon gets back.
Diaz and Stallings is a good pair of catchers. Wonder what happens when Cervelli gets back. He should probably retire at this point as the concussions are only going to occur with more frequency now.
Interesting that your two highest paid players, or close to it, aren't even with the team and aren't contributing squat to this run. Same with the two Pirates big FA splashes, the SS and RF'er who have played like 5 games with them...more dead money!
Archer is a puzzle. He has a plus fastball, but like Cole when he was here, it just sits there begging to be hit!
He has a nice slider, but seems to challenge hitters with his flat fastball and they park it.
Pirates should study what Cole did to make himself into a winning pitcher and emulate it with Archer.
So with Polanco being the $$$ millstone around their necks, what do the Pirates do with Dickerson? His contract is up and he's a FA after the season.
A Dickerson/Marte/Reynolds Outfield would look pretty sweet, no?
Meadows is for Tampa what he'd always been for the Pirates. An oft hurt streaky hitter that never lived up to is potential. Glasnow showed TB what kind of pitcher he can be, but is injured. He never did that for Pittsburgh. The other #1 pick in the deal is still developing so who knows.
The problem with the Pirates run is they might get close, but you think the Cubs, Cards, and Brewers will sit still? They will ADD talent prior to the deadline.
Enjoy the run, it is fun to watch until it isn't.
The Pirates can't under their current financial philosophy/situation.
You need to spend money to actually accomplish anything in baseball. I still wouldn't be shocked to see them be sellers.
Enjoy the run, it is fun to watch and is great, until it isn't.
Archer throws his homer pitches right down the middle and it drives me nuts. I have zero faith in him. However i do think he is a good one to have around the clubhouse. It is fun and exciting to watch them play now. I only hope it continues.
Honestly, this streak comes at a terrible time as they become buyers when they should be looking to trade a few pieces like Marte. Seems like they become pseudo contenders right before the deadline every year and nosedive afterwards.
I still enjoy these streaks when they happen.
I am glad that we seem to have lots of young offensive talent at the major league level and below. Need to find more pitching somewhere.
Agree on the meat and potatoe pitches and should not throw them with a full count.. he is super competitive to a fault. When he was yanked yesterday he wanted to continue even though his pitch count was close to 100.
He's never pitched beyond the 5th inning for the Pirates. Maybe a time or two.
His pitch count is always well above 100 when pulled.
He seems to think he can overpower hitters with his 96 mph fastball.
If it tailed or moved...maybe he could.
But a flat 96 mph fastball is basically a pitching machine, and these guys LIVE on the pitching machine. A professional hitter will rarely miss a flat fastball unless it is over 100 mph, and even then it has to be mixed with a curve, changeup or slider so they can't just sit on it.
This is great, this is fun. But.....................despite this hot streak recently, the Pirates have 8 teams ahead of them in the NL standings and 2 others with a game. They are a 4-6 run away from having 10 full teams ahead of them in WC standings, and 4 teams in the divisional race.
My point here, it is best for the Pirates long term to go on a 3-7 run or even 2-8, with a still hot offense but bad pitching so the organization can make the correct and rational moves. I think they got a lot of pieces right now they can burn it down, get alot in return and maybe in 2 years come back with a true contender. Ala Astros and Braves.
Edit.....but one more win against Joe Maddon and the Cubs is good! Always good to beat them
My point here, it is best for the Pirates long term to go on a 3-7 run or even 2-8, with a still hot offense but bad pitching so the organization can make the correct and rational moves. I think they got a lot of pieces right now they can burn it down, get alot in return and maybe in 2 years come back with a true contender. Ala Astros and Braves.
Edit.....but one more win against Joe Maddon and the Cubs is good! Always good to beat them
That's exactly his problem. His fastball has good velocity, but it doesn't move. And fastballs with no movement are easy for good hitters to hit.
That was Garrit Cole when he was here. He would through 95-97, but there was never any movement. He pitched to contact essentially by design. Now look at him, that 96 mph fastball is so much more effective.
That's why I said earlier the Pirates should analyze what he's doing now and applying that to Archer.
Hauntingly similar.
The Bucs have been fun to watch. They have the indomitable factor of some of the great Bucco teams of yore. I think, ultimately, the season will end in disappointment, but for now they are right in the thick of it. Right along that in-or-out line the makes the GM's job interesting.
Even tho I am optimistic about a lot of things, I am not optimistic about a playoff run this year.
It’s always deceiving when u are 2 or 3 games out but have 3 or 4 other teams bunched in there. They eventually start playing each other, and one or more of those teams emerges
It’s always deceiving when u are 2 or 3 games out but have 3 or 4 other teams bunched in there. They eventually start playing each other, and one or more of those teams emerges
Last night was absolutely perfect!! Perfect if you are a true Pirate fan. I am serious. It was fun, it was entertaining. You got the Bell bomb. The dramatic tying HR in the bottom of the 9th by Kang.
And a loss. Look man, this team is not a contender, they don't have the pitching staff to do so. They shouldn't sell, they gambled last year on a long shot and lost 3 good prospects. I am all for putting your chips in, but not when you have a pair of deuces.
I hope they lose this series. And they struggle out of the All Star break. Then look to make some big, bold moves. Vasquez, Marte, Dickinson, Cabrera, burn it down. But this time, (unlike the Cole an Cutch trades) you go for the best talent available not the best "major league ready" talent. I don't want Colin Moran and Joe Musgrove. I want Dustin May and Keibert Ruiz from the Dodgers.
And you get these young guys, you may lose 100 next year, you get high picks, you will have to trade Josh Bell, he will command a huge return, and by that time, all of a sudden you have a bevy of talent.
And a loss. Look man, this team is not a contender, they don't have the pitching staff to do so. They shouldn't sell, they gambled last year on a long shot and lost 3 good prospects. I am all for putting your chips in, but not when you have a pair of deuces.
I hope they lose this series. And they struggle out of the All Star break. Then look to make some big, bold moves. Vasquez, Marte, Dickinson, Cabrera, burn it down. But this time, (unlike the Cole an Cutch trades) you go for the best talent available not the best "major league ready" talent. I don't want Colin Moran and Joe Musgrove. I want Dustin May and Keibert Ruiz from the Dodgers.
And you get these young guys, you may lose 100 next year, you get high picks, you will have to trade Josh Bell, he will command a huge return, and by that time, all of a sudden you have a bevy of talent.
This may have already been said, but it’s their struggles against the Brewers that’s killing them. 2-9 against them. I’ll feel okay if they somehow win both today and tomorrow going into the ASB, but they still just seem like a 70-80 win team to me, which I’ve generally thought all along thus far this year.
Maybe they can go on a run after the break like last year to at least pique our interest before football, but not the easiest looking schedule.
Maybe they can go on a run after the break like last year to at least pique our interest before football, but not the easiest looking schedule.
The pitching staff is woefully hurting and there is no bright light ahead. Injuries and incompetence leaves one to have absolutely no confidence in the pitching. How this Navoy, who gave up two homers last night, still is hanging around is beyond me. I read this morning that they called up a pitcher with a 9+ era. This ought to be fun. that's the only way to describe the current situation. just sain'
Neverauskas is your typical AAAA pitcher. Good enough to get guys out at AAA, not good enough to get guys out in the majors.
With the injuries this season you bring guys up.
If they pan out great . If not . So be it .
I think the team is hanging and anything goes as far as the available roster .
Let's Go Bucs ! ..... And Nutting is a cheap M---f--k-- !
Yeah, I'm not blaming them. You got to do what you got to do. But at this point it's pretty clear with Neverauskas that they are just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.
Yeah . Moran starting to look like the hitter i thought he'd could be last year . Starting to look more comfortable with the pitches he's seeing .
Bell looking much better with the d side of his game .
Agreed. However baseball is a weird game . Terrible one year or half a year .
Superstar the next . Guys either progress at the top level or spend there career in AAA .
Moran, like Bell, is becoming a better hitter. And you’re right, he’s shortening up with 2 strikes, going the opposite way, etc. Like Bell, he has a big frame. Scary to think how good he can be if he could put more muscle on that frame.
Absolutely . BTW . Is Bell 6' 3'' ? I know he is huge but Moran looks like the jolly green giant . If he tacked on a little weight , muscle he could be a monster scary threat at the plate .
Wow . I saw a picture of Bell's Dad and the guy looks like WWF wrestler .
Definitely following in Daddioes foot steps .
A well spoken , intelligent kid with a head on his shoulders .
If the Bucs dont open the pocketbook soon . He gone !
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