OT: Quips to 5A

[pittdan77]

I still don't understand the success formula well enough to understand Aliquippa's trajectory versus Southern Columbia. I know it has to do with transfers but is it the percentages that are beating the Quips up or is there some sort of cut-off.

For the most part, undoing the vo-tech stuff was the right thing to do. Belle Vernon should be 4A. They definitely benefited from that rule before it changed.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I still don't understand the success formula well enough to understand Aliquippa's trajectory versus Southern Columbia. I know it has to do with transfers but is it the percentages that are beating the Quips up or is there some sort of cut-off.

For the most part, undoing the vo-tech stuff was the right thing to do. Belle Vernon should be 4A. They definitely benefited from that rule before it changed.

Does anyone know the formula? Its not JUST success, right? They can win 10 2A championships in a row if they dont have the required amount of transfers. I think Aliquippa would have won 5A this year and may win it next year. They are a machine. I see their numbers are 2A now so they arent as small as some say.

Belle Vernon took advantage of the not having to count cyber, vo tech, homeschool kids. Some will say they should have decided to play up, as they didnt lose a game vs a 3A team in 2 years and only had 2 which were close, but I'm not a fan of playing up unless a state title would be too easy. But they are back up to 4A and Central Valley is dropping down to 3A so CV will win the next 2 3A State Championships and Belle Vernon will go back to losing in the quarters or semis.

I dont think Southern Columbia gets any transfers. They are probably just the Aliquippa of the Eastern side in terms of a small school who is crazy about football. I watched them play Westinghouse and they didnt have any D1 players. They just had a bunch of big, strong kids.....like kids made in a lab. Reminded me of when I say PSU has all those white roided up WWE linebackers. That's kinda what SC reminded me of. A team built in the weightroom. A town where every kid plays football so you dont have 5-6 would-be starters playing soccer or hockey or fall travel baseball.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Who benefits from the quips playing against such large schools?

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Who benefits from the quips playing against such large schools?

The teams in 4A, I guess.

 

[pittdan77]

How many transfers does it take and how to they determine a kid is a transfer? Like, if the kid transfers in 3rd grade, does that count or when is it? Do the schools report this or is there another metric used? Then, how does this all come together to decide a school moves up?

I'm not being coy, I really would like this explained.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

How many transfers does it take and how to they determine a kid is a transfer? Like, if the kid transfers in 3rd grade, does that count or when is it? Do the schools report this or is there another metric used? Then, how does this all come together to decide a school moves up?

I'm not being coy, I really would like this explained.

I have no idea and don't follow the WPIAL much. But it was always my understanding that a lot of their transfers happen in junior high.

But my question would be: They're voluntarily playing up two classes, right? So is the formula using 3A as their baseline, whereas 1A (now 2A, as mentioned above) would otherwise be their baseline?

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

How many transfers does it take and how to they determine a kid is a transfer? Like, if the kid transfers in 3rd grade, does that count or when is it? Do the schools report this or is there another metric used? Then, how does this all come together to decide a school moves up?

I'm not being coy, I really would like this explained.

Is there any other school in the history of the PIAA that had to deal with this much BS?

Who in their right mind is moving into Aliquippa unless you are from there? If you are from Beaver County and moving for athletic reasons, then Central Valley would be the choice. It is close by and they’ve had a ton of success recently.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

How many transfers does it take and how to they determine a kid is a transfer? Like, if the kid transfers in 3rd grade, does that count or when is it? Do the schools report this or is there another metric used? Then, how does this all come together to decide a school moves up?

I'm not being coy, I really would like this explained.

that's a good question. was reading thru some of the tweets and for some reason the PIAA lists that RB as a transfer, the dude going to psu. he's been playing football for quippa since he was like 10, as there were pics of him as a little kid in one of those twitter threads.

so i'd be curious about what they consider a "transfer" as this rb doesnt seem to fit the traditional definition of one since he's been in aliquippa for a decade.

 

[pittdan77]

that's a good question. was reading thru some of the tweets and for some reason the PIAA lists that RB as a transfer, the dude going to psu. he's been playing football for quippa since he was like 10, as there were pics of him as a little kid in one of those twitter threads.

so i'd be curious about what they consider a "transfer" as this rb doesnt seem to fit the traditional definition of one since he's been in aliquippa for a decade.

I saw that and that's why I'm asking, how many transfers does it take? I thought I read it was three so they may just be blowing smoke over one kid but I don't know.

 

[pittdan77]

Is there any other school in the history of the PIAA that had to deal with this much BS?

Who in their right mind is moving into Aliquippa unless you are from there? If you are from Beaver County and moving for athletic reasons, then Central Valley would be the choice. It is close by and they’ve had a ton of success recently.

Well, apparently someone is? That's why I'm trying to understand.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I saw that and that's why I'm asking, how many transfers does it take? I thought I read it was three so they may just be blowing smoke over one kid but I don't know.

PIAA is alleging 24 transfers. Aliquippa is saying they have two, neither of which really played. There will be an appeal hearing. Last time, the Quips made some good points in how moving in with a relative in district is common in low income districts, and not some grand football scheme. They shouldn't be punished for having aunts raising kids in tough situations.

The rumor for SC is they get them in middle school before it counts against them. Idk if thats true.

 

[pittdan77]

PIAA is alleging 24 transfers. Aliquippa is saying they have two, neither of which really played. There will be an appeal hearing. Last time, the Quips made some good points in how moving in with a relative in district is common in low income districts, and not some grand football scheme. They shouldn't be punished for having aunts raising kids in tough situations.

The rumor for SC is they get them in middle school before it counts against them. Idk if thats true.

I'm assuming that if they're claiming two, the threshold must be low. And the low income argument is probably legit most of the time. Agree that they shouldn't be punished if that's really the case. Only question in that regard is, where do you draw the line?

 

[mlvnsmly]

PIAA is alleging 24 transfers. Aliquippa is saying they have two, neither of which really played. There will be an appeal hearing. Last time, the Quips made some good points in how moving in with a relative in district is common in low income districts, and not some grand football scheme. They shouldn't be punished for having aunts raising kids in tough situations.

The rumor for SC is they get them in middle school before it counts against them. Idk if thats true.

Is that 24 just for the football team? If so, I don't see how there is any legitimate argument for that.

 

[mlvnsmly]

I saw that and that's why I'm asking, how many transfers does it take? I thought I read it was three so they may just be blowing smoke over one kid but I don't know.

It's 3 transfers or more over 2 consecutive years.

 

[pittdan77]

It's 3 transfers or more over 2 consecutive years.

Thank you.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

that's a good question. was reading thru some of the tweets and for some reason the PIAA lists that RB as a transfer, the dude going to psu. he's been playing football for quippa since he was like 10, as there were pics of him as a little kid in one of those twitter threads.

so i'd be curious about what they consider a "transfer" as this rb doesnt seem to fit the traditional definition of one since he's been in aliquippa for a decade.

There's no way. He has been their RB since 9th grade. There's no way they can go back earlier than that.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

PIAA is alleging 24 transfers. Aliquippa is saying they have two, neither of which really played.

This makes no sense. How can the PIAA say they have 24 and Aliquippa say they have 2? They only have like 50 players on the team. They are saying 1 out of every 2 players is a transfer? That's impossible.

Honestly, if there's 10 mysteries in life I'd like to see figured out with who shot JFK and the MH370, the Aliquippa Transfer Conspiracy ranks right up there. So much of it just makes no sense. These kids dominate the youth leagues from age 6 and up and you see "now and then" pics of them but then somehow in HS, the team isnt good enough so they recruit a bunch of kids who want to transfer to one of the worst school districts in the state? It is bizarre.

I do think Aliquippa does get a fair share of transfers but that is because the families are transient. Its like that in any low income district. Home ownership rates are low so families frequently move from town to town looking for good rental options. But 24???? No frickin way.

Last thing on this, Aliquippa has to bear SOME responsibility here. Don't let the transfers play or only allow enough so it doesn't move them up. Some will say that's not right but plenty of kids in tens of thousands of other school districts get cut from the basketball team, soccer team, cheerleading team, etc. It makes sense to cut these players and then tell them to voice their concerns to the PIAA.

 

[S.R.M.]

This makes no sense. How can the PIAA say they have 24 and Aliquippa say they have 2? They only have like 50 players on the team. They are saying 1 out of every 2 players is a transfer? That's impossible.

Honestly, if there's 10 mysteries in life I'd like to see figured out with who shot JFK and the MH370, the Aliquippa Transfer Conspiracy ranks right up there. So much of it just makes no sense. These kids dominate the youth leagues from age 6 and up and you see "now and then" pics of them but then somehow in HS, the team isnt good enough so they recruit a bunch of kids who want to transfer to one of the worst school districts in the state? It is bizarre.

I do think Aliquippa does get a fair share of transfers but that is because the families are transient. Its like that in any low income district. Home ownership rates are low so families frequently move from town to town looking for good rental options. But 24???? No frickin way.

Last thing on this, Aliquippa has to bear SOME responsibility here. Don't let the transfers play or only allow enough so it doesn't move them up. Some will say that's not right but plenty of kids in tens of thousands of other school districts get cut from the basketball team, soccer team, cheerleading team, etc. It makes sense to cut these players and then tell them to voice their concerns to the PIAA.

Growing up in Ambridge, I can definitely say that quite a few top football players that attended Ambridge from kindergarten to 7th grade decided to go to Aliquippa around 8th or 9th grade. I can't say for certain it was athletically motivated but it definitely happened. It is true that many of them had family and maybe one of their parents lived in Aliquippa. I'm not downplaying their success, and the majority of it is because the town is football obsessed. They have an incredible culture of winning but they get a ton of transfers who happen to be good football players.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Growing up in Ambridge, I can definitely say that quite a few top football players that attended Ambridge from kindergarten to 7th grade decided to go to Aliquippa around 8th or 9th grade. I can't say for certain it was athletically motivated but it definitely happened. It is true that many of them had family and maybe one of their parents lived in Aliquippa. I'm not downplaying their success, and the majority of it is because the town is football obsessed. They have an incredible culture of winning but they get a ton of transfers who happen to be good football players.

That's before HS though. I am not doubting they get more transfers than most schools, but I dont believe 24 of their 50 players transferred there in 9th grade or later. How can PIAA say that and Aliquippa say its only 2?

 

[Saboteur II]

Growing up in Ambridge, I can definitely say that quite a few top football players that attended Ambridge from kindergarten to 7th grade decided to go to Aliquippa around 8th or 9th grade. I can't say for certain it was athletically motivated but it definitely happened. It is true that many of them had family and maybe one of their parents lived in Aliquippa. I'm not downplaying their success, and the majority of it is because the town is football obsessed. They have an incredible culture of winning but they get a ton of transfers who happen to be good football players.

That’s how Steubenville High School does it, but in Ohio you can attend the public school from neighboring districts with some minor obstacles.
Also, they used to get a bunch of lower income kids from Weirton. It was simply a matter of getting low income housing.
I see nothing wrong with this. If I’m a young guy in Weirton and can improve my lot in life by moving across the river, I’m doing it.

 

[Burgh15]

That's before HS though. I am not doubting they get more transfers than most schools, but I dont believe 24 of their 50 players transferred there in 9th grade or later. How can PIAA say that and Aliquippa say its only 2?

Max Preps has Aliquippa's roster listed at 44. I agree it's hard to believe more than half the roster transferred in.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

How can PIAA say that and Aliquippa say its only 2?

I don't know where the discrepancy comes from (especially since the PIAA isn't investigating this on their own, they are just using what Alliquippa tells them), but if you remember the last time this happened the same thing happened. Alliquippa said that the PIAA was way overcounting transfers and that was the basis for their appeal. And then when they got to the appeal hearing they basically said, "well yeah, sure, we have way more than the number of transfers allowed but we don't think you should count all of them, or even most of them."

That argument didn't win the day the last time, and if that's how they are going to go about this again this time, it seems pretty likely that the outcome is going to be the same.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I don't know where the discrepancy comes from (especially since the PIAA isn't investigating this on their own, they are just using what Alliquippa tells them), but if you remember the last time this happened the same thing happened. Alliquippa said that the PIAA was way overcounting transfers and that was the basis for their appeal. And then when they got to the appeal hearing they basically said, "well yeah, sure, we have way more than the number of transfers allowed but we don't think you should count all of them, or even most of them."

That argument didn't win the day the last time, and if that's how they are going to go about this again this time, it seems pretty likely that the outcome is going to be the same.

Well, they won on appeal last time. But if the PIAA is saying 24 and they are saying 2, why would Aliquippa report 24 but now say 2? The only thing that makes any sense would be if the 24 kids bounce between Aliquippa and some neighboring communities pretty often.

Kid starts 9th grade in Aliquippa.

Family finds a better apartment in January in Ambridge and enrolls in Ambridge

Family moves back to Aliquippa for 10th grade, staying in grandma's house this time.

Family finds a good apartment in Beaver Falls in Jan and enrolls in Beaver Falls.

I am sure there are SOME players like this and they absolutely should NOT be counted but 24 out of the 44 players? That doesnt make sense.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Sounds like whoever does the paperwork at Quip might not being doing it well.

 

[BigZeke]

Growing up in Ambridge, I can definitely say that quite a few top football players that attended Ambridge from kindergarten to 7th grade decided to go to Aliquippa around 8th or 9th grade. I can't say for certain it was athletically motivated but it definitely happened. It is true that many of them had family and maybe one of their parents lived in Aliquippa. I'm not downplaying their success, and the majority of it is because the town is football obsessed. They have an incredible culture of winning but they get a ton of transfers who happen to be good football players.

If these kids transferred to Seneca Valley because they had an awesome Band no one would care but transfer for “athletic intent” in a low income area where kids are fighting to get stay off the streets & you get rewarded by playin up THREE classifications. Yeah makes sense. Wow 😯

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

If these kids transferred to Seneca Valley because they had an awesome Band no one would care but transfer for “athletic intent” in a low income area where kids are fighting to get stay off the streets & you get rewarded by playin up THREE classifications. Yeah makes sense. Wow 😯

The WV AG sued the NCAA to allow players to transfers as many times as they want because they have a good basketball player this year they wanted eligible. If the Federal Court (in WV) granted unlimited free transfers (with athletic intent of course), how is it that no one in PA has sued the PIAA about this? If your parent or guardian legitimately move residences, you should be immediately eligible. I dont care if you live in Aliquippa for football then move to Ambridge for basketball then Blackhawk for baseball, if your family legitimately moves, you need to be eligible. Its absolutely crazy to me that no one has gone to bat for these kids especially considering they are lower income minorities. If the family feels its in their best interest to play sports at 3 different schools, they need to be eligible. Period. And you cant be penalizing their teams for it.

 

[S.R.M.]

Is there any other school in the history of the PIAA that had to deal with this much BS?

Who in their right mind is moving into Aliquippa unless you are from there? If you are from Beaver County and moving for athletic reasons, then Central Valley would be the choice. It is close by and they’ve had a ton of success

If these kids transferred to Seneca Valley because they had an awesome Band no one would care but transfer for “athletic intent” in a low income area where kids are fighting to get stay off the streets & you get rewarded by playin up THREE classifications. Yeah makes sense. Wow 😯

I'm not disagreeing. I personally think people should be able to transfer to play at a better school just like good musicians or actors go to performing arts high schools.

I'm saying I can say first hand I know about 10 people that were good football players from Ambridge who went to Aliquippa once we got to junior high/high school and it was and still is a running joke that the Ambridge midget team was an Aliquippa feeder. I'm sure the PIAA isn't just making up numbers to force Aliquippa to play up. There isn't some conspiracy against them. They should change the rule, but, the way it is written, they are in the correct classification.

 

[pbrad]

So they will beat the 5A schools that play down.

 

[forbesfield]

Sounds like whoever does the paperwork at Quip might not being doing it well.

This is the key. Maybe it's a new secretary.

Transfers to Quip are a long-time tradition.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I'm not disagreeing. I personally think people should be able to transfer to play at a better school just like good musicians or actors go to performing arts high schools.

I'm saying I can say first hand I know about 10 people that were good football players from Ambridge who went to Aliquippa once we got to junior high/high school and it was and still is a running joke that the Ambridge midget team was an Aliquippa feeder. I'm sure the PIAA isn't just making up numbers to force Aliquippa to play up. There isn't some conspiracy against them. They should change the rule, but, the way it is written, they are in the correct classification.

A lot of programs are known for players transferring in. Monessen has the lowest enrollment of any 1A football school, partly because they all go to Belle Vernon for football now. TJ gets transfers. Gateway back in the day. Woodland Hills back in the day. But there is no way 23 of Aliquippa's 40 players transferred in after 9th grade. Aliquippa said its 2 and that's a mistake. If they said it was 6 or 7, ok, maybe that's believable, but there's no way its 23. The PIAA used annual eligibility lists submitted by Aliquippa to make this determination and Aliquippa is saying the list is wrong. Seems like a clerical error just like Woodland Hills miscounting like 500 extra students this cycle forcing them to go from 3A to 5A.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Seems like a clerical error just like Woodland Hills miscounting like 500 extra students this cycle forcing them to go from 3A to 5A.

Woodland Hills supposedly counted 9th graders instead of just 10-12. However, I've heard they're still going to be 5A.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Monessen has the lowest enrollment of any 1A football school, partly because they all go to Belle Vernon for football now.

Monessen losing 3 kids to BVA over the past 4 years isn't causing them to be the smallest school. Quinton Martin isn't one of them considering he played junior high sports for BVA and prior to that he was at South Allegheny and Monessen in elementary school.

 

[mlvnsmly]

A lot of programs are known for players transferring in. Monessen has the lowest enrollment of any 1A football school, partly because they all go to Belle Vernon for football now. TJ gets transfers. Gateway back in the day. Woodland Hills back in the day. But there is no way 23 of Aliquippa's 40 players transferred in after 9th grade. Aliquippa said its 2 and that's a mistake. If they said it was 6 or 7, ok, maybe that's believable, but there's no way its 23. The PIAA used annual eligibility lists submitted by Aliquippa to make this determination and Aliquippa is saying the list is wrong. Seems like a clerical error just like Woodland Hills miscounting like 500 extra students this cycle forcing them to go from 3A to 5A.

They said it's 2 because the threshold is 3. What a coincidence.

 

[goalieman]

Woodland Hills supposedly counted 9th graders instead of just 10-12. However, I've heard they're still going to be 5A.

The PIAA counts 9th through 11th graders to determine enrollment numbers, maybe Woodland Hills inadvertantly counted 9th through 12th ?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

lets face it, people who live in aliquippa arent doing it by choice, it's because well, they have too. 1/2 the town is freakin related to each other..

let them have their football folks, there isnt much else going for them outside of friday nights in the fall.

 

[S.R.M.]

lets face it, people who live in aliquippa arent doing it by choice, it's because well, they have too. 1/2 the town is freakin related to each other..

let them have their football folks, there isnt much else going for them outside of friday nights in the fall.

I'm guessing they will still win the WPIAL in 5A one of the next two years. They have been the best 4A program in th state. The best 4A program is better than 85% of the 5A programs. They won't win the state because there are too many Philly charter schools playing 5A. Bethel Park and Peters Township are in for a rude awakening if they think Aliquippa is going to be a win.

 

[pittdan77]

lets face it, people who live in aliquippa arent doing it by choice, it's because well, they have too. 1/2 the town is freakin related to each other..

let them have their football folks, there isnt much else going for them outside of friday nights in the fall.

My biggest beef with this is that the rules only apply to public schools. I don't know how many kids are moving to Aliquippa for economic reasons but I still believe there are two types of transfers. If it's purely for athletics, fine, it's a problem but if there are other reasons (family had to move/economics) it probably shouldn't be an issue. I think if you're reporting that half your roster came from somewhere else, there's a huge demographic shift happening that should be obvious or there is athletic intent. Whether anyone should care or not is another discussion. Should they be curb-stomping single A schools? No. Do they belong in 5A? Probably also no.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

My biggest beef with this is that the rules only apply to public schools. I don't know how many kids are moving to Aliquippa for economic reasons but I still believe there are two types of transfers. If it's purely for athletics, fine, it's a problem but if there are other reasons (family had to move/economics) it probably shouldn't be an issue. I think if you're reporting that half your roster came from somewhere else, there's a huge demographic shift happening that should be obvious or there is athletic intent. Whether anyone should care or not is another discussion. Should they be curb-stomping single A schools? No. Do they belong in 5A? Probably also no.

yeah but man, it's brutal there. lets give them a pass, literally. like, lets look the other way on this one, i mean, drive thru aliquippa when you get a chance and you'll agree with me.

it's like when you were a kid and you and your boys are playing pickup basketball and the disabled kid comes over to play. the 12 year old kid who's still wearing a diaper. you dont call double dribble on him when he picks up the ball and starts licking it. i mean, you let it go, pretend you dont see it and let him have his fun..

same concept here.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I'm guessing they will still win the WPIAL in 5A one of the next two years. They have been the best 4A program in th state. The best 4A program is better than 85% of the 5A programs. They won't win the state because there are too many Philly charter schools playing 5A. Bethel Park and Peters Township are in for a rude awakening if they think Aliquippa is going to be a win.

WPIAL 5A seems really week now. I would guess Aliquippa would win it most years unless they hit some sort of lull. They will probably never win states though. BP and Peters think Aliquippa is going to be a win? Aliquippa would be the favorite to win 5A.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

They said it's 2 because the threshold is 3. What a coincidence.

Because they probably arent dumb enough to allow more than 2 transfers "make the team." The PIAA said Tiqwai Hayes was a transfer but he has attended Aliquippa continuously since Kindergarten. The list is wrong. They dont have 23 transfers and only 17 Aliquippa kids. That is insane.