OT: Quips to 5A
- Thread starter pittdan77
- Start date
No. Just put them in the private/charter classification with SJP, Imhotep, and others. Let the true community schools compete to see which town is the best. All-star teams shouldn't compete against towns.
If Aliquippa hosts a big 5A home game, I want to go. Never been to the new Heinz Field.
The trouble is, not all Catholic schools are "all star" teams. Seton LaSalle or Canevin aren't. Serra. Tiny St Joseph (not the Philly one) so how do you do that?
I think the hypocrisy lies in how can you punish a public school district if people are living in that district, and yet not the Catholic/Private schools??
People move all of the time, for many different reasons. This is especially true of those in difficult economic situations. Families break up, jobs change, housing becomes unaffordable, etc. There is no reason to assume that anyone moved there for any reason related to the schools. The PIAA is making something out of nothing.
Which is why you have 2 classes of non-geographic teams and 4 classes of geographic teams like in New Jersey
For me, its really easy, transfer every month for all I care. If your family moves, you are eligible and the team isnt penalized. I realize lower-income families are more likely to apartment hop or live with relatives but dont penalize the kids or the team. The NCAA allows free transfers. Why should the PIAA be any different?
I've heard this stated on this board for years, but it's not a big number at all. A few here and there over the last 10 years. Last time we discussed this folks struggled so bad to come up with a list that they were adding DiNucci, which is flat out ridiculous.
While I agree with your general sentiment, it still remains true that statistically it's way more likely for people to move out of Quip, than into Quip. Nobody is moving into Aliquippa to find a better life.
I think that the more rational approach to this is just to disallow the transfers. Pay more attention to who is coming in, from where, and keep the program at 3A or 4A or wherever they'd be without all of the transfers. The WPIAL and the PIAA are just unwilling to deal with the issue at its roots.
How about this. If someone lives in a district and family pays taxes, or someone pays tuition to a private school, they are eligible to play. Pretty simple in my eyes. No one cares if someone decides to choose a district to move to join a swim team, or band, or has a better math department or tennis coach, but my god if it is football or basketball, we go apeshit. That just shows the completely unhealthy focus on these things.
And that's because at it's root, the problem is (mostly) the private schools. And no one has the stomach to take on some of the private schools, mainly because they don't want to be seen as being anti-Catholic. So instead they come up with these goofy half-measures that don't really address the problem, but sorta, kinda, but not really address part of the problem.
It's not anti-Catholic, per se, even if SJP and CC are bellwether programs on either end of the state. It's more of a political issue that is tossed into what is going on in society overall. While in the past the WPIAL and the PIAA, run primarily by understaffed ex-gym teachers, was largely incompetent, now they also fear the backlash from the fringe part of society that interprets every action/decision made by a public entity thru the lens of our current culture clash.
I probably overstated that, but it may well be that they can hear the noise in the background and would prefer not to increase the volume, hence, they punt.
It's not anti-Catholic, but some people perceive that it's anti-Catholic and the accuse people of being anti-Catholic because of it, and people would rather not be accused of that even if that has nothing to do with their motivation.
As much as the PIAA gets flack and they often deserve it, our state athletic association is run much better then some neighboring states.
If we go the Maryland/NJ route with separating private/public schools you will see the complete deterioration of public school football and basketball. The better solution is separating them for just playoffs and not as a whole. In Maryland, there is no oversight for recruiting athletes. The MPSSAA has no jurisdiction over the private schools. The privates openly recruit and build mega teams - see St Francis, DeMatha, Good Counsel, St. Johns, Gonzaga, etc. MD still has some good public school teams but it's almost impossible to build a consistent state championship program out of say Baltimore County or City.
The MPSAAA is part of the Maryland State Government. They have so much red tape towards athletics it's ridiculous. There are junior high athletics in that state. It's one of the reason kids have such an AAU mentality when coming into HS. You can't do anything football related like 7 on 7 as a public school unless you identify as a some kind of club teammate. If you want to an off-season workout with a football present, you can't have more then 2 kids there. In Maryland, your JV canot even dress for Friday night games. It's one of the weirdest things to see a school that graduates 600 kids with only 25-30 kids on the sideline because the other 25-30 kids are in the stands. Delaware has a similar rule but it's like a pitch count for JV kids on a Friday night. I doubt anyone polices it though. The PIAA has some red tape but nothing like that Maryland for public schools.
If we go the Maryland/NJ route with separating private/public schools you will see the complete deterioration of public school football and basketball. The better solution is separating them for just playoffs and not as a whole. In Maryland, there is no oversight for recruiting athletes. The MPSSAA has no jurisdiction over the private schools. The privates openly recruit and build mega teams - see St Francis, DeMatha, Good Counsel, St. Johns, Gonzaga, etc. MD still has some good public school teams but it's almost impossible to build a consistent state championship program out of say Baltimore County or City.
The MPSAAA is part of the Maryland State Government. They have so much red tape towards athletics it's ridiculous. There are junior high athletics in that state. It's one of the reason kids have such an AAU mentality when coming into HS. You can't do anything football related like 7 on 7 as a public school unless you identify as a some kind of club teammate. If you want to an off-season workout with a football present, you can't have more then 2 kids there. In Maryland, your JV canot even dress for Friday night games. It's one of the weirdest things to see a school that graduates 600 kids with only 25-30 kids on the sideline because the other 25-30 kids are in the stands. Delaware has a similar rule but it's like a pitch count for JV kids on a Friday night. I doubt anyone polices it though. The PIAA has some red tape but nothing like that Maryland for public schools.
I think you said the same thing I said, essentially, but in a much more efficient manner.
The problem is, some schools like Central, St Joes Prep, Cathedral Prep in Erie are big time destinations for top athletes in their regions. For every one of them, there are 15-20 Catholic schools who basically take local kids and are not any more talented than the local public schools.
There was a time, many years ago, when the Catholic League was still in existence, that kids from St. Moron Parish could only go to school at a certain high school (let's call it Archbishop Idiot). Kids from the North Hills had to go to North. City kids had to go to Central. Some parishes had to send to kids only to Canevin, or South Hills Catholic, or whatever. There were no crossovers permitted. There were true geographic boundaries. I do not know when that changed, but it killed the old North Catholic by opening up Central to the masses.
That was a simpler era, with more Catholic high schools, before the big money sports world took over.
That was a simpler era, with more Catholic high schools, before the big money sports world took over.
Locally, I disagree - especially at the small school level. Look no further then Bishop Canevin and GCC the past 3 years. Neither school was doing anything in football in 2020. Schools like Canevin and GCC have much more talent then 90% of the 1A schools in WPA.
It will be interesting to see if schools like Canevin, GCC, Imani, and Serra will be in the next few years. Covid opened up some doors for some of these schools that will be remain to be seen if that is such an advantage for them going forward. Case in point - one of those schools was doing a daily drive to Wilkinsburg picking up a handful of kids for football practice but they never stepped foot on campus because they went "cyber." I'm totally fine with that model if that's what you want to do. Anyone who is involved with with education knows the past 3 years of cyber has been a disaster. But, if you want to do it - fine I'm cool with it. Just make sure those teams play in 3A or 4A. If you're going to utilize the AAU model play against bigger schools where you'll have parity.
Damnit, why did they scrub the FSU/ACC thread? I had my “Aliquippa to the ACC” joke ready to go!
No, but how is north catholic and the Philly schools able to stay at their levels?
North Catholic has capped enrollment and hasn’t won enough. I talked to someone from NC and they are not all in on football. If they ever wanted to go all in, then things could get interesting.
Lost appeal. Staying 5A. While I dont like the rule, Aliquippa has nobody but themselves to blame. They know the rule. In the end, they had 5 transfers but were only allowed 2. Doesn't matter that they supposedly didnt contribute much. They shouldn't have allowed them on the team. Like it or not, the rule is the rule. It hurts lower income districts whose population is more transient but the PIAA is pretty clear. If you have 2 transfers and then another marginal player moves in because the family found a cheaper place to live, that kid cannot be allowed to play football even if it will help instill discipline and require him to meet certain academic standards. They dont want that kid playing football so you have to abide by it.
St. Joe's Prep is ruining the PIAA football tournament. Many of the rules that exist are in place because of their reindeer games. If SJP had any class, they would ask the PIAA to exempt them from the PIAA for football only so they could play a "national" schedule but still remain for other sports. It's a great school, but they are giving every other Catholic/Private school a bad name in regards to athletics.
They dont have to ask the PIAA for anything. They can go independent in football and play a national schedule if they want
From what I’ve read, the arguments that Aliquippa used were more like message board talking points than actual persuasive arguments towards why the rule was being applied incorrectly.
their main argument was that some of the transfers rarely played so they shouldnt count lol.
in hindsight, probably should have lawyered up. they got enough rich alumni to pay the lawyer fee..
As it was explained to me, you cannot pick and choose what sports you want to participate in with the PIAA. You are either in or out. This is the problem they are facing, which I am confident can be navigated.
The appeal process was simplified. Either show that you don't have the transfers or show that you don't have the success points. They couldn't do either.
I think the weirdest argument is that they claim there is a safety issue because they'll be playing schools with bigger rosters. That seems absurd to me because it's still 11 on 11 and they routinely have at least 40 kids. It's not like they're just getting by with 25 kids and are a couple of skill position injuries away from playing kids who can't protect themselves.
i still think they are gonna do well in 5a. i got a buddy who coaches for peters and he says they will roll them. i dont know man, but we'll find out..
i think they come into peters, bethel, usc, and do well.
I have no doubt. And that's sort of at the core of the issue. As much as they claim this is a horrible injustice that has been thrust upon them, they just keep dominating so it's obvious that they have been benefiting in some way. Honestly, if I were them and legitimately believed they're being cheated by the PIAA, I'd go all in and just openly recruit and force the PIAA to prevent transfers. Would give them a much stronger argument for any sort of competitive imbalance because they could claim the system is preventing what they're being accused of.
How does Aliquippa recruit kids/families to move to Aliquippa? Let's be honest, nobody not from Aliquippa is moving there just to play football. If a kid moves there it's because they have immediate or extended family already living in the area.
I think that's a hollow argument for a school with 2A enrollment that is dominating 4A. Seems pretty apparent that there is a bit more than just financial hardship when the kids just happen to be stellar athletes.
I am not that familiar with 5A ball but I would think with much larger rosters, that the kids don't play both sides of the ball almost every play?
That's where Aliquippa would be at a disadvantage. Over a full season, that's a lot of wear and tear on teenage bodies but since Quip continues to win it appears to look easy when it is not. IMO it seems the PIAA is entertained by this and wants to see what's the highest classification Quip can compete at.
Aliquippa is going to win WPIAL 5A. I mean lets not pretend there's some great difference between 4A and 5A. The best teams in one class could sometimes win the next class up. That one year, Penn-Trafford won the 5A state championship but lost to 4A Belle Vernon. Aliquippa is the best team in 4A. If they dont win 5A, they are going to be one of the main contendors.
I hear ya, if anything Quip is losing talent due to financial hardship.
Two D-1 prospects left, Henry went to Central Valley and Larry Moon to Pittsburgh Central Catholic. Something def is in the water but Quip should not be penalized for that.
This is correct. The best 5A teams are only going to have a few kids go both ways. Aliquippa probably plays 7-8 kids both ways (guessing). That's their complaint. And although they have 40 players, that counts freshmen. If you count freshmen, some of these 5A teams have 70-80 players. That said, they win 5A
I don't get how anyone can deem this as fair. Below are statistics I copied from someone's social media.
The ESPN 30 for 30 on this is going to be amazing!
Every year school districts are required to submit data to the department of education, one of those reports is the Title XI athletic opportunity summary per district... public information BTW...
Aliquippa
Sports available to boys 9-12: 4
Annual athletic expenditures: $97,981 (without our new stadium cost)
Baldwin
Sports available to boys 9-12: 13
Annual athletic expenditures: $514,827.49
Bethal Park
Sports available to boys 9-12: 11
Annual athletic expenditures: $467,191
Moon
Sports available to boys 9-12: 7
Annual athletic expenditures: $525,593.64
Peters Township
Sports available to boys 9-12: 13
Annual athletic expenditures: $547,481.78
South Fayette
Sports available to boys 9-12: 10
Annual athletic expenditures: $676,738.53
Upper St. Clair
Sports available to boys 9-12: 8
Annual athletic expenditures: $774,337.97
The ESPN 30 for 30 on this is going to be amazing!
Every year school districts are required to submit data to the department of education, one of those reports is the Title XI athletic opportunity summary per district... public information BTW...
Aliquippa
Sports available to boys 9-12: 4
Annual athletic expenditures: $97,981 (without our new stadium cost)
Baldwin
Sports available to boys 9-12: 13
Annual athletic expenditures: $514,827.49
Bethal Park
Sports available to boys 9-12: 11
Annual athletic expenditures: $467,191
Moon
Sports available to boys 9-12: 7
Annual athletic expenditures: $525,593.64
Peters Township
Sports available to boys 9-12: 13
Annual athletic expenditures: $547,481.78
South Fayette
Sports available to boys 9-12: 10
Annual athletic expenditures: $676,738.53
Upper St. Clair
Sports available to boys 9-12: 8
Annual athletic expenditures: $774,337.97
