OT: The forgotten PENS

[BTisinDC]

The trade deadline overall was really weak. For all teams. For everyone whining about the return for Guentzel, Jason Zucker was traded also at the deadline. He yielded a 6th rd pick, or less than the Pens got for Chad Ruwehdal.

I was shocked when I saw the 4 for Ruhwedel.

Saw someone else say the pens took 3 B prospects instead of 1 A prospect. If so, says a lot about our minor league system.

I have zero ability to judge hockey prospects, but the Finn looks good to me - so kiss of death on him.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

I was shocked when I saw the 4 for Ruhwedel.

Saw someone else say the pens took 3 B prospects instead of 1 A prospect. If so, says a lot about our minor league system.

I have zero ability to judge hockey prospects, but the Finn looks good to me - so kiss of death on him.

Here's the thing.....the rest of the way.....

Root for the Canes to go to the Finals. The Pens get their 1st.

Root for the Pens to tank down the stretch.....the Pens keep their 1st if it is top 10 and also is eligible for the lottery and could land a top 5 or even the top pick. Though there is no Crosby or McDavid at the top of this draft. But Calabrini (I think that is name) is a really good prospect who might be able to play right away.

 

[BTisinDC]

Here's the thing.....the rest of the way.....

Root for the Canes to go to the Finals. The Pens get their 1st.

Root for the Pens to tank down the stretch.....the Pens keep their 1st if it is top 10 and also is eligible for the lottery and could land a top 5 or even the top pick. Though there is no Crosby or McDavid at the top of this draft. But Calabrini (I think that is name) is a really good prospect who might be able to play right away.

Root for it, but hard to see Crosby leading a tank job. We’re currently in bottom 10 though - right ?

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Root for it, but hard to see Crosby leading a tank job. We’re currently in bottom 10 though - right ?

11. But the schedule gets tougher and Sid ain't exactly lighting it up right now.

 

[303vND]

The Pens are dead team skating - it's going to get depressing in Pittsburgh regarding the professional sport teams.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Right now....for the first time in Crosby's time..............root for the Pens to lose. This is a good thing.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Geno and Letang are big Macklin Celebrini fans.

 

[Dan1911]

Letang is singularly awful today. Giveaway goal. Then a giveaway on a simple power play pass. No need to keep the core together. He’s not worth it. Fans are booing him. He’s been that bad.

Malkin is sulking and won’t shoot. Announcers confounded by Malkin’s play.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Letang is singularly awful today. Giveaway goal. Then a giveaway on a simple power play pass. No need to keep the core together. He’s not worth it. Fans are booing him. He’s been that bad.

Malkin is sulking and won’t shoot. Announcers confounded by Malkin’s play.

They got to get rid of at least one of these guys.

 

[goalieman]

Pens down 2-0 end of the 1st period to the Oilers .....

Letang has been bad the last couple games ..... a turnover machine ...... that turnover today was ridiculous, he had 2 options to safely pass the puck (either keep it on the forehand and go up the near boards out of the zone or pivot the way he did and get it across to his D partner,) instead he passes it to McDavid in the middle of the ice for an Edmonton goalie ...... then he flubs a pass on the PP that almost leads to another goal ...

I'm not sure why Malkin won't shoot the puck ..... it's been a few games where he is passing up good shots ...... the only legitimate reason I can think of is if he has a hand injury otherwise inexplicable ......

If Jarry didn't make a bunch of really good saves the score could be 4 or 5 to 0 in the 1st period ......

The power play remains horrible ..... too slow, too much passing ..... need to simplify, shoot with traffic around crease .....

Pens are just too disorganized at present and don't have the overall talent level the good teams have ..... they at least need to play with a lot better structure and discipline then they are now ....... hopefully Dubas can make some moves over the summer to help but looks bad for the Pens ..... also, I'm becoming more convinced that we need a change in the entire coaching staff.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Pens down 2-0 end of the 1st period to the Oilers .....

Letang has been bad the last couple games ..... a turnover machine ...... that turnover today was ridiculous, he had 2 options to safely pass the puck (either keep it on the forehand and go up the near boards out of the zone or pivot the way he did and get it across to his D partner,) instead he passes it to McDavid in the middle of the ice for an Edmonton goalie ...... then he flubs a pass on the PP that almost leads to another goal ...

I'm not sure why Malkin won't shoot the puck ..... it's been a few games where he is passing up good shots ...... the only legitimate reason I can think of is if he has a hand injury otherwise inexplicable ......

If Jarry didn't make a bunch of really good saves the score could be 4 or 5 to 0 in the 1st period ......

The power play remains horrible ..... too slow, too much passing ..... need to simplify, shoot with traffic around crease .....

Pens are just too disorganized at present and don't have the overall talent level the good teams have ..... they at least need to play with a lot better structure and discipline then they are now ....... hopefully Dubas can make some moves over the summer to help but looks bad for the Pens ..... also, I'm becoming more convinced that we need a change in the entire coaching staff.

How do they retain Sullivan??

 

[maxwell#1]

So if Pens finish in bottom 10 they get to keep draft pick, next year do they give up pick regardless of position. If so you do everything to stay out of bottom 10 This year to get rid of draft spot. Knowing how this most likely will progress will be worse next year, probably much worse and then will have better lottery odds

 

[Phillypanther2]

They got to get rid of at least one of these guys.

That would be nice, but I don’t see how it happens. If another team tells the Penguins we’ll give you a #5 pick in 2026 for Malkin if you retain the max salary for the rest of his contract and include one of the Penguins best prospects (Yager, Pickering, Blomqvist) would you still do it?
Letang with 5 years left would be even harder to trade.

 

[Allan McMurray]

Is the NHL like the NFL in that you can release players in the offseason and only take a partial cap hit?

Christ if so, bye Malkin, bye Letang.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Is the NHL like the NFL in that you can release players in the offseason and only take a partial cap hit?

Christ if so, bye Malkin, bye Letang.

No. The NHL has a real union. So all contracts are guaranteed.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

So if Pens finish in bottom 10 they get to keep draft pick, next year do they give up pick regardless of position. If so you do everything to stay out of bottom 10 This year to get rid of draft spot. Knowing how this most likely will progress will be worse next year, probably much worse and then will have better lottery odds

Well I think you got to take the sure thing (this year) and hope next year things are better.

 

[Allan McMurray]

1 goal in the last 3 games. I don’t see how Sullivan can survive this, if this keeps up.

 

[Parkview57]

Good thing that I don't have them on my cable anymore, they are not worth watching, it saves me time and money, the regular season is generally meaningless in the NHL, and the play-offs are generally on something that I don't have to pay extra for, the future is bright.

 

[Dan1911]

How do they retain Sullivan??

Easy. Do nothing and he comes back.

 

[Dan1911]

1 goal in the last 3 games. I don’t see how Sullivan can survive this, if this keeps up.

Herd response: He’s an incredible coach. He’d have a job immediately.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Letang with 5 years left would be even harder to trade.

But at least until recently Letang has been reasonably good this season. Malkin was good for the first couple of weeks, and then since then, yuk.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Herd response: He’s an incredible coach. He’d have a job immediately.

He's a good coach. And he will get hired where he wants to go. Or take a year off and broadcast. But.....his time has expired here. It happens in sports, especially hockey. The last franchise that should be afraid to fire a coach are the Penguins.

 

[Upg bobcat]

11. But the schedule gets tougher and Sid ain't exactly lighting it up right now.

I looked at the standings, I only count 7 teams with less points than the Pens. Am I missing something that suggests we would not be that close to the bottom if the season ended today?

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

I looked at the standings, I only count 7 teams with less points than the Pens. Am I missing something that suggests we would not be that close to the bottom if the season ended today?

Well that was before the two losses. The Mock tankathon also takes into account games in hand, which the Pens still have but that is going away shortly.

 

[Pitt79]

He's a good coach. And he will get hired where he wants to go. Or take a year off and broadcast. But.....his time has expired here. It happens in sports, especially hockey. The last franchise that should be afraid to fire a coach are the Penguins.

Exactly, like Tomlin someone else will hire him, doesn't mean his current team doesn't need real change, JUST LIKE THE STEELERS DO, and especially the Pens I think 3 of their last 4 Cups were won after firing a coach mid-season, am I wrong? At least 2009 and 2016 for sure.

 

[goalieman]

Is the NHL like the NFL in that you can release players in the offseason and only take a partial cap hit?

Christ if so, bye Malkin, bye Letang.

Good question ....... there are 2 circumstances where a team can release/terminate a players contract in the NHL and have no cap hit ....1) The player breaches his contract, or 2) The team and the player both agree to terminate the contract (usually when the player wants to retire before the end of the contract) ...... it is very uncommon for either of these circumstances to happen .....

The other ways to get out of a contract and have no cap hit are , of course, to trade the player or put him on waivers and have another team claim him .......

Finally, you can get out of a contract by buying the player out but there remains some cap hit to the team in that setting ....... the cap hit taken on a buyout will be for twice the number of years left on the contract but the total over that time will be less than the cap hit taken with no buyout ....... for example, Bryan Rust has 4 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 5.125 million/year or 20.5 M over the 4 years (then no cap hit to the Pens after that unless they re-sign him) ...... if the Pens bought out Rust after this season, they would take a cap hit for 8 years but the total cap hit over the 8 years would total 14.3+M (this varies from player to player based on their contract) ....

BUT forget about buying out Malkin or Letang as both have 35+ contracts and although you could buy them out, the total cap hit remains unchanged for the length of the contract as you get no cap relief in a 35+ contract with a buy out ...... they both have NMC's so you can't trade or waive them either.

 

[BTisinDC]

Good question ....... there are 2 circumstances where a team can release/terminate a players contract in the NHL and have no cap hit ....1) The player breaches his contract, or 2) The team and the player both agree to terminate the contract (usually when the player wants to retire before the end of the contract) ...... it is very uncommon for either of these circumstances to happen .....

The other ways to get out of a contract and have no cap hit are , of course, to trade the player or put him on waivers and have another team claim him .......

Finally, you can get out of a contract by buying the player out but there remains some cap hit to the team in that setting ....... the cap hit taken on a buyout will be for twice the number of years left on the contract but the total over that time will be less than the cap hit taken with no buyout ....... for example, Bryan Rust has 4 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 5.125 million/year or 20.5 M over the 4 years (then no cap hit to the Pens after that unless they re-sign him) ...... if the Pens bought out Rust after this season, they would take a cap hit for 8 years but the total cap hit over the 8 years would total 14.3+M (this varies from player to player based on their contract) ....

BUT forget about buying out Malkin or Letang as both have 35+ contracts and although you could buy them out, the total cap hit remains unchanged for the length of the contract as you get no cap relief in a 35+ contract with a buy out ...... they both have NMC's so you can't trade or waive them either.

Is Jack johnson still on the books due to a buyout?

 

[goalieman]

Is Jack johnson still on the books due to a buyout?

Yes, for 2 more years after this season at $916,667/year

We also owe another year on retained salary for Jeff Petry of $1,562,500

 

[Allan McMurray]

Good question ....... there are 2 circumstances where a team can release/terminate a players contract in the NHL and have no cap hit ....1) The player breaches his contract, or 2) The team and the player both agree to terminate the contract (usually when the player wants to retire before the end of the contract) ...... it is very uncommon for either of these circumstances to happen .....

The other ways to get out of a contract and have no cap hit are , of course, to trade the player or put him on waivers and have another team claim him .......

Finally, you can get out of a contract by buying the player out but there remains some cap hit to the team in that setting ....... the cap hit taken on a buyout will be for twice the number of years left on the contract but the total over that time will be less than the cap hit taken with no buyout ....... for example, Bryan Rust has 4 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 5.125 million/year or 20.5 M over the 4 years (then no cap hit to the Pens after that unless they re-sign him) ...... if the Pens bought out Rust after this season, they would take a cap hit for 8 years but the total cap hit over the 8 years would total 14.3+M (this varies from player to player based on their contract) ....

BUT forget about buying out Malkin or Letang as both have 35+ contracts and although you could buy them out, the total cap hit remains unchanged for the length of the contract as you get no cap relief in a 35+ contract with a buy out ...... they both have NMC's so you can't trade or waive them either.

So, in short, the Pens are screwed. I thought resigning Rust and Malkin were a giant mistake. I was ok with Letang because he wasn't trending down. Rust was a solid player but not for the kind of money.

I enjoyed Bob Pompeani's argument that NMC's in the NHL are a farce. I agree with him that the Crosby's, McDavid's of the world absolutely are entitled to them...but Bryan Rust and those types? No. Even Jake with a partial NMC, no.

I guess we can look at the positive, only 2 more years of Malkin's contract. I wish Letang was only a 4 year deal as well.

In the end, I know this is blasphemous, but I would explore trading Sid. If you trade Sid, Letang and Malkin would probably waive their NMC.

I think a deep rebuild is what is needed, along with a coaching change. I could be completely wrong, but there is really nothing positive about Pittsburgh hockey now or in the next few years unless Dubas can pull a gold rabbit out of his hat.

 

[BTisinDC]

So, in short, the Pens are screwed. I thought resigning Rust and Malkin were a giant mistake. I was ok with Letang because he wasn't trending down. Malkin was the Rust was a solid player but not for the kind of money.

I enjoyed Bob Pompeani's argument that NMC's in the NHL are a farce. I agree with him that the Crosby's, McDavid's or the world absolutely are entitled to them...but Bryan Rust and those types? No. Even Jake with a partial NMC, no.

I guess we can look at the positive, only 2 more years of Malkin's contract. I wish Letang was only a 4 year deal as well.

In the end, I know this is blasphemous, but I would explore trading Sid. If you trade Sid, Letang and Malkin would probably waive their NMC.

I think a deep rebuild is what is needed, along with a coaching change. I could be completely wrong, but there is really nothing positive about Pittsburgh hockey now or in the next few years unless Dubas can pull a gold rabbit out of his hat.

Even if Malkin waived his NMC, you need someone willing to acquire him, and that’s a big problem.

 

[Allan McMurray]

Even if Malkin waived his NMC, you need someone willing to acquire him, and that’s a big problem.

Yeah, at his age and declining production, it would only be for a marginal player and we would still have to retain some salary.

Hextall…..Philly scumbag

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

So, in short, the Pens are screwed. I thought resigning Rust and Malkin were a giant mistake. I was ok with Letang because he wasn't trending down. Rust was a solid player but not for the kind of money.

I enjoyed Bob Pompeani's argument that NMC's in the NHL are a farce. I agree with him that the Crosby's, McDavid's of the world absolutely are entitled to them...but Bryan Rust and those types? No. Even Jake with a partial NMC, no.

I guess we can look at the positive, only 2 more years of Malkin's contract. I wish Letang was only a 4 year deal as well.

In the end, I know this is blasphemous, but I would explore trading Sid. If you trade Sid, Letang and Malkin would probably waive their NMC.

I think a deep rebuild is what is needed, along with a coaching change. I could be completely wrong, but there is really nothing positive about Pittsburgh hockey now or in the next few years unless Dubas can pull a gold rabbit out of his hat.

I pretty much agree with the entirety of this post. I said at the time I wouldn't have resigned Malkin and Rust. They just needed some new (different) blood.

 

[goalieman]

I pretty much agree with the entirety of this post. I said at the time I wouldn't have resigned Malkin and Rust. They just needed some new (different) blood.

I have some disagreement about your opinion regarding not wanting to resign Rust ....... he is a 20-25 goal scorer and 45-55 point per season player, top 6 forward, very good skater, responsible defensively, solid on the PP, and an elite penalty killer, basically a very good all around player ....... yesterday he was the best Penguins player on the ice ....... at the time he was resigned, comparable players were getting anywhere from 5-7 million and up, so it was largely regarded back then that the Pens got a very good deal on his contract ........ it was a 6 year deal and he is ending the 2nd year of the contract, however, his NMC is for the 1st 3 years of the contract only, so after next season the Pens can trade him to anyone ..... so I don't think the contract and it's value is that bad as opposed to some others on the team.

 

[goalieman]

So, in short, the Pens are screwed. I thought resigning Rust and Malkin were a giant mistake. I was ok with Letang because he wasn't trending down. Rust was a solid player but not for the kind of money.

I enjoyed Bob Pompeani's argument that NMC's in the NHL are a farce. I agree with him that the Crosby's, McDavid's of the world absolutely are entitled to them...but Bryan Rust and those types? No. Even Jake with a partial NMC, no.

I guess we can look at the positive, only 2 more years of Malkin's contract. I wish Letang was only a 4 year deal as well.

In the end, I know this is blasphemous, but I would explore trading Sid. If you trade Sid, Letang and Malkin would probably waive their NMC.

I think a deep rebuild is what is needed, along with a coaching change. I could be completely wrong, but there is really nothing positive about Pittsburgh hockey now or in the next few years unless Dubas can pull a gold rabbit out of his hat.

I agree that there are way too many NMC's, it's out of hand, and the Pens have too. many .... to review the Pens players and there NMC's (there are 6 of them) ......

Jeff Carter's contract expires at the end of the season and he will not be resigned so one of the NMC gone ....

Bryan Rust has one more season of NMC then it expires with 3 further seasons on his contract afterwards where he can be traded to anyone .....

Geno has 2 more years on his contract and then his NMC (and contract) is gone .....

Letang has 4 years after this season left on his contract with 2 years of NMC only then the last 2 years with a M-NTC,NMC which means he can be traded after 2 more seasons to anyone but the 10 teams he lists that he won't go to ..... yeah, I know, who will take him .....

Karlsson has 3 years left on his contract with NMC all the years ....

Sid will have a NMC for however long he has a contract.

Therefore, regarding NMC only contracts, Carters is gone after this season, Rusts after one more season, Geno and Letang after 2 years, and Karlsson after 3 years ........ Sid's will be for as long as he has a contract.

 

[PittPharm2002]

I agree that there are way too many NMC's, it's out of hand, and the Pens have too. many .... to review the Pens players and there NMC's (there are 6 of them) ......

Jeff Carter's contract expires at the end of the season and he will not be resigned so one of the NMC gone ....

Bryan Rust has one more season of NMC then it expires with 3 further seasons on his contract afterwards where he can be traded to anyone .....

Geno has 2 more years on his contract and then his NMC (and contract) is gone .....

Letang has 4 years after this season left on his contract with 2 years of NMC only then the last 2 years with a M-NTC,NMC which means he can be traded after 2 more seasons to anyone but the 10 teams he lists that he won't go to ..... yeah, I know, who will take him .....

Karlsson has 3 years left on his contract with NMC all the years ....

Sid will have a NMC for however long he has a contract.

Therefore, regarding NMC only contracts, Carters is gone after this season, Rusts after one more season, Geno and Letang after 2 years, and Karlsson after 3 years ........ Sid's will be for as long as he has a contract.

Thank you for the quality information as always !

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

I have some disagreement about your opinion regarding not wanting to resign Rust ....... he is a 20-25 goal scorer and 45-55 point per season player, top 6 forward, very good skater, responsible defensively, solid on the PP, and an elite penalty killer, basically a very good all around player ....... yesterday he was the best Penguins player on the ice ....... at the time he was resigned, comparable players were getting anywhere from 5-7 million and up, so it was largely regarded back then that the Pens got a very good deal on his contract ........ it was a 6 year deal and he is ending the 2nd year of the contract, however, his NMC is for the 1st 3 years of the contract only, so after next season the Pens can trade him to anyone ..... so I don't think the contract and it's value is that bad as opposed to some others on the team.

Here's my problem. Rust. Jake. Rackell. Malkin. All are/were obviously good players, but all are perimeter players. In 2016-17 all were mostly faster than their opponents. Even Sid. You resign them into their 30's, they aren't getting bigger and stronger. They are getting slower. They still are mostly perimeter oriented. And here we are, with one of the worst PP's over the past few years, a highly skilled team who can't win 3 on 3 OT situation. Resigning all of these guys don't change this. And here we are. A bunch of the same aging parts, the same pieces of the puzzle that no longer fits because they won't change the way they play, and the coach won't change the system that allows them to play this way without accountability.

So no, I didn't want Malkin resigned. I didn't want Rust resigned. When they did this anyways, I then wanted Jake traded this past offseason because they just need to try something different.

They didn't. And well Soufie........................thanks for your support. Because I know what the hell I am talking about here.

 

[BTisinDC]

Here's my problem. Rust. Jake. Rackell. Malkin. All are/were obviously good players, but all are perimeter players. In 2016-17 all were mostly faster than their opponents. Even Sid. You resign them into their 30's, they aren't getting bigger and stronger. They are getting slower. They still are mostly perimeter oriented. And here we are, with one of the worst PP's over the past few years, a highly skilled team who can't win 3 on 3 OT situation. Resigning all of these guys don't change this. And here we are. A bunch of the same aging parts, the same pieces of the puzzle that no longer fits because they won't change the way they play, and the coach won't change the system that allows them to play this way without accountability.

So no, I didn't want Malkin resigned. I didn't want Rust resigned. When they did this anyways, I then wanted Jake traded this past offseason because they just need to try something different.

They didn't. And well Soufie........................thanks for your support. Because I know what the hell I am talking about here.

What were you going to replace them with?

 

[goalieman]

Here's my problem. Rust. Jake. Rackell. Malkin. All are/were obviously good players, but all are perimeter players. In 2016-17 all were mostly faster than their opponents. Even Sid. You resign them into their 30's, they aren't getting bigger and stronger. They are getting slower. They still are mostly perimeter oriented. And here we are, with one of the worst PP's over the past few years, a highly skilled team who can't win 3 on 3 OT situation. Resigning all of these guys don't change this. And here we are. A bunch of the same aging parts, the same pieces of the puzzle that no longer fits because they won't change the way they play, and the coach won't change the system that allows them to play this way without accountability.

So no, I didn't want Malkin resigned. I didn't want Rust resigned. When they did this anyways, I then wanted Jake traded this past offseason because they just need to try something different.

They didn't. And well Soufie........................thanks for your support. Because I know what the hell I am talking about here.

Couple of things ...... first, glad to see you back on the board after your timeout, "recruits", second, I agree the Pens have made some bad deals (late Rutherford years, Hextall, and several Dubas deals last year have not worked out as hoped) but I stand by my above post regarding resigning Rust .....

Many hockey people outside the Pens organization said at the time the contract that Rust signed was team friendly and felt it was a good deal for the Pens ....... Rust is one of the best (and maybe the best) on the team at driving to the net off the rush, he scores most of his goals in the high danger areas, is a good forechecker, and a tough penalty killer ..... he is no Kevin Stevens but to call him a weak perimeter player I don't think is quite fair ...... you can't trade all your BEST players just because they are 28-29 y/o, your return can be very unpredictable as to how they turn out, especially draft picks and prospects but NHL players as well, as noted in the last sentence of my 1st paragraph in this post ..... we just disagree about Rust, no big deal, it's good for discussion.

 

[pittbb80]

Here's my problem. Rust. Jake. Rackell. Malkin. All are/were obviously good players, but all are perimeter players. In 2016-17 all were mostly faster than their opponents. Even Sid. You resign them into their 30's, they aren't getting bigger and stronger. They are getting slower. They still are mostly perimeter oriented. And here we are, with one of the worst PP's over the past few years, a highly skilled team who can't win 3 on 3 OT situation. Resigning all of these guys don't change this. And here we are. A bunch of the same aging parts, the same pieces of the puzzle that no longer fits because they won't change the way they play, and the coach won't change the system that allows them to play this way without accountability.

So no, I didn't want Malkin resigned. I didn't want Rust resigned. When they did this anyways, I then wanted Jake traded this past offseason because they just need to try something different.

They didn't. And well Soufie........................thanks for your support. Because I know what the hell I am talking about here.

Are they highly skilled ? Sid yes. Jake yes.

But clearly Malkin is no longer highly skilled. Letang is no longer highly skilled Is Rust highly skilled ? The problem is the pens talent is way over rated based on how good they USED to be

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Couple of things ...... first, glad to see you back on the board after your timeout, "recruits", second, I agree the Pens have made some bad deals (late Rutherford years, Hextall, and several Dubas deals last year have not worked out as hoped) but I stand by my above post regarding resigning Rust .....

Many hockey people outside the Pens organization said at the time the contract that Rust signed was team friendly and felt it was a good deal for the Pens ....... Rust is one of the best (and maybe the best) on the team at driving to the net off the rush, he scores most of his goals in the high danger areas, is a good forechecker, and a tough penalty killer ..... he is no Kevin Stevens but to call him a weak perimeter player I don't think is quite fair ...... you can't trade all your BEST players just because they are 28-29 y/o, your return can be very unpredictable as to how they turn out, especially draft picks and prospects but NHL players as well, as noted in the last sentence of my 1st paragraph in this post ..... we just disagree about Rust, no big deal, it's good for discussion.

Well Rust is smallish, predicated on speed. Sure he has tenacity. But the Pens just had too many guys of this size. I do think when they signed Rust, they should have then traded Jake, and gotten some bigger dudes.

The whole thing though, Rust, Sid, Geno, Letang, Jake, etc.....is not just they were getting older and to a varying degree, lessoning of their skills, but they were/are getting stale. The messages stale. This includes coaching. It seems like they don't hold each other accountable. They miss big personalities like a Dupuis, a Talbot, a Guerin and a Robert, an Orpik, this group just seems to lack the "heat" and passion to get on things when things aren't right.

Karlson is a talent, but he certainly is not a warrior type. And changing the bottom 6 is essentially rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, with this group. The big problem is the talent that has led this team to 16 straight playoff years are on the back nine, and some very back nine.