Pitt Stadium

[pitt2533]

people have all that stuff and they still don’t go to watch Pitt on the north side. It’s not moving the needle for attendance.

They didn't with an on campus stadium either. Our attendance is our attendance. It is never going to be a strong point for the program. We didn't draw well with on campus stadium either.

 

[bwh05]

They didn't with an on campus stadium either. Our attendance is our attendance. It is never going to be a strong point for the program. We didn't draw well with on campus stadium either.

no but at least the players and students would be better served. They would definitely prefer to be on campus.

 

[superstein61a]

UPMC is entirely a university spin-off entity. It really originated from the university's efforts to create an academic medical center which began when Pitt's medical school built Falk Clinic and enticed Presby, Children's, Eye & Ear, Magee, and Womens hopitals to move on campus to form the University Medical Center in the 1930s. It added pieces to this ever tightening integration like Western Psych and Salk to became the University of Pittsburgh Health Center in the 50s, and then incorporated into UHCP in the 60s, followed by a consolidation into what was termed the Medical and Health Care Division (MHCD) of the University in the 80s. And yes, Presby University Hospital was part of this but still operated independently. By this time the University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP) was the component of the university that served as the clinical practice plan for all University faculty which had clinical service appointments on top of the academic and research duties that were performed under various other University departments or centers. After Montefiore was added in 1990, the MHCD was renamed to the "University of Pittsburgh Medical Center," a name an acronym whose copyright, by the way, is still owned by the University. UPMC wasn't spun off as a legally independent entity from the University for another eight years, at which time UPP was also transferred to UPMC so the University could divest of its faculty's clinical operations. However, the University retained all operations on the academic and research side. To this day though, health science faculty are employed and overseen by the University for all academic and research endeavors, but their clinical appointment and compensation for clinical responsibilities is handled by UPP, which is now entirely under UPMC. There are arrangements between Pitt and UPMC for a common paymaster for these individuals for employee tax calculation purposes. In any case, the spin-off of UPMC in 1998 was done to shield the University from financial risks involved in being a clinical provider and to allow the Medical Center to be more aggressive in its early battles with AHREF and Highmark (it had already formed Tri-State as a confederation of hospitals like Passavant and Shadyside as a foil against Highmark's monopoly; those obviously later integrated to form the beginnings of the wider health system) which included considerable risks including starting its own health insurance company.

All actual bio and health science research, from the very beginning, has been entirely financed through, managed, and originated from within the University. It is university academic faculty, departments, and centers that are entirely responsible for originating the ideas and breakthroughs that get published and bring in research funding. Without that academic component, none of the top clinicians at UPMC's flagship facilities would have been there. Top medical experts, like Salk, Stazl, Jose-Alain Sahel, and Patrick Moore, aren't landing somewhere where they don't have academic appointments or are able to continue their research in a meaningful way with a robust collegial setting with the appropriate infrastructure and administrative support. Most physicians at major academic medical centers are involved in at least some research and training. That is the prestige that you mentioned before, and that mostly the University, because prestige within academic circles emanates almost entirely from research endeavors which is 100% under the University, conducted by University faculty and staff, and it always has been. And as a corollary, the medical tourism and exportation of the UPMC brand is largely based on that prestige. Otherwise, UPMC is just another Kaiser Permanente or LifePoint in the business of just getting bigger, and not trying to compete with Partners, Mayo, MD Anderson, Hopkins, and Cleveland. Go to NIH RePORT and compare how much federal bioscience research funding has ever been, and is currently awarded to, UPMC vs Pitt. But prestige that UPMC brings, and it does because it is the seat of the clinical aspect, and the prestige that the University brings for research, is symbiotic.

And as I noted, since its spinoff from the University, UPMC's articles of incorporation specifically names two, and only two, entities that is its mission to support: the University and Presby, and that is contractual to the University as well. That comes into a tune of ~$200m a year for the University based on UPMC financial performance, which is about 1/3 of what the University obtains externally from its research bioscience endeavors, and that is decidedly not just being "along for the ride," either in historical or contemporary reality. UPMC has financially supported and partnered with Pitt on many research projects since it has spun off, because it is in both entities interests to do so, they are historically and contractually tied together including co-employment of their top clinical and medical science talent, and it is actually UPMC's founding mission to do so. In these areas, the University and UPMC are of one mind.

Wow nice cut and paste. Unfortunately a lot of it is not accurate.

For example, while MHCD came into being in the late 80's, Presby remained independent. Yes Presby was affiliated but only brought fully into the fold thanks to the financial embezzlement discovered around 1989 I believe.

You said:

in the 80s the University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP) was the component of the university that served as the clinical practice plan for all University faculty which had clinical service appointments on top of the academic and research duties that were performed under various other University departments or centers

That is entirely incorrect. UPP did not come into existence until around 1997. Prior to that there were a variety of separately incorporated physician practice plans delineated by specialty - for example, University Internal Medicine, University Orthopedics, etc. These plans employed the physicians who also had faculty appointments. However they were each their own independent financial entity and had an agreement in place to "hide" extra profits in the University School of Medicine. That way, they could operate as for profit entities and physicians could earn substantial amounts - but at the end of the year net income would be zeroed out my making supposed required payments to the School of Medicine - which really just went into an account for that particular practice plan to use as only they had access to those funds. It was a tax avoidance scheme.

UPP was formed around 1997 because of another financial debacle and misdirection by Romoff. Basically there was a medicare audit that targeted documentation on OR cases. They went after UPMC and Romoff pulled the wool over the chairmen of each practice plans eyes. He convinced them to look at this as a consolidated audit rather than making the government deal with each practice plan separately. Then he had a couple people do an internal review from a small sample size of cases and came up with a very big projected fine and penalty. The problem was the sample size was very small and the problems were only in a couple of practice plan so addressing them as individual entities would have been the right thing to do. But Romoff wanted control over the plans and physicians so he said he would have UPMC pay the fine (also illegal but it was disguised to pass IRS muster) if the plans agreed to merge into one entity, UPP, that would be a subsidiary of UPMC. That is how and when UPP came about.

The practice plans have always employed the physicians and supported them. During the early years, a physicians may have received dual checks, one from the School of Medicine and one from their specific practice plan. But the money to fund both checks, as well as the pay of all researchers came from the practice plans and the shell game of moving profits each year to their school of medicine accounts.

You have more inaccuracies but I will stop there. Lets just say I was once on the front lines of all this happening so I know the real story.

 

[superstein61a]

I know, I’m just trying to smoke out people that will say they’d rather stay at Heinz than have a brand new on campus stadium.

i would rather stay at Heinz than deal with the traffic and parking nightmare in Oakland at a brand new stadium. I bet a large number of people feel the same way. Traffic ingress and egress is terrible. Parking is impossible. Heinz is far superior in that regard plus it has modern amenities

 

[CrazyPaco]

Wow nice cut and paste. Unfortunately a lot of it is not accurate.

For example, while MHCD came into being in the late 80's, Presby remained independent. Yes Presby was affiliated but only brought fully into the fold thanks to the financial embezzlement discovered around 1989 I believe.

You said:

in the 80s the University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP) was the component of the university that served as the clinical practice plan for all University faculty which had clinical service appointments on top of the academic and research duties that were performed under various other University departments or centers

That is entirely incorrect. UPP did not come into existence until around 1997. Prior to that there were a variety of separately incorporated physician practice plans delineated by specialty - for example, University Internal Medicine, University Orthopedics, etc. These plans employed the physicians who also had faculty appointments. However they were each their own independent financial entity and had an agreement in place to "hide" extra profits in the University School of Medicine. That way, they could operate as for profit entities and physicians could earn substantial amounts - but at the end of the year net income would be zeroed out my making supposed required payments to the School of Medicine - which really just went into an account for that particular practice plan to use as only they had access to those funds. It was a tax avoidance scheme.

UPP was formed around 1997 because of another financial debacle and misdirection by Romoff. Basically there was a medicare audit that targeted documentation on OR cases. They went after UPMC and Romoff pulled the wool over the chairmen of each practice plans eyes. He convinced them to look at this as a consolidated audit rather than making the government deal with each practice plan separately. Then he had a couple people do an internal review from a small sample size of cases and came up with a very big projected fine and penalty. The problem was the sample size was very small and the problems were only in a couple of practice plan so addressing them as individual entities would have been the right thing to do. But Romoff wanted control over the plans and physicians so he said he would have UPMC pay the fine (also illegal but it was disguised to pass IRS muster) if the plans agreed to merge into one entity, UPP, that would be a subsidiary of UPMC. That is how and when UPP came about.

The practice plans have always employed the physicians and supported them. During the early years, a physicians may have received dual checks, one from the School of Medicine and one from their specific practice plan. But the money to fund both checks, as well as the pay of all researchers came from the practice plans and the shell game of moving profits each year to their school of medicine accounts.

You have more inaccuracies but I will stop there. Lets just say I was once on the front lines of all this happening so I know the real story.

Cut and paste from what?

Yes, you are right about UPP forming later to unify the practice plans that were absorbed into UPMC. There were about 18 or so separate practice plans that consolidated into UPP, and that was a tough lift from what I understand. That was my bad recollection of that. I don't know about the internal intrigue that helped forge the merger, but I remember strong resistance to it and pay cuts of faculty when this went down, and take your word for it and it makes sense as a catalyst that would be used to break down the fiefdoms. I appreciate the insight. I also remember one of the fears of UPP being absorbed by UPMC was that it would undercut the academic mission of the med school in that UPMC would overemphasize clinical revenues over research and have too much power over the med school's finances, etc. In the long run, those fears appear to have been unfounded as the med school's academic status is stronger than ever. I wasn't on the front lines but I was in the Department of Pathology at this time and thus around Michalopoulos. None of this changes the overriding point against the suggestion that innovation in the bio and health sciences somehow doesn't reside within the university, nor was it intended to more than a quick overview.

 

[SisadaPITT]

Paco is, was, always will be a shill for admin, just know that when he post, there is an agenda

 

[chirurgo]

A shiny, brand new stadium with lots of amenities around it is not necessary for a college football game. The college game is about the atmosphere, the energy from the student section, the campus surrounding it where you can reminisce with your college buddies and take your kids to see the campus. I would much rather eat at a place like fuel and cuddle or get O fries after a game than go to any place on the North Shore. The only advantage was when they moved were the tailgates. Now they built a bunch of parking garages. It’s a mess there now. As for traffic, you have that too on the Northshore. I usually walk to the Warhol to pick up an uber. And I still piss in a trough and barely use the seat back of my seat anyway. I don’t get the fascination with Heinz Field for college games. At this point, I’d rather they just play at CMU.

 

[chirurgo]

Cut and paste from what?

Yes, you are right about UPP forming later to unify the practice plans that were absorbed into UPMC. There were about 18 or so separate practice plans that consolidated into UPP, and that was a tough lift from what I understand. That was my bad recollection of that. I don't know about the internal intrigue that helped forge the merger, but I remember strong resistance to it and pay cuts of faculty when this went down, and take your word for it and it makes sense as a catalyst that would be used to break down the fiefdoms. I appreciate the insight. I also remember one of the fears of UPP being absorbed by UPMC was that it would undercut the academic mission of the med school in that UPMC would overemphasize clinical revenues over research and have too much power over the med school's finances, etc. In the long run, those fears appear to have been unfounded as the med school's academic status is stronger than ever. I wasn't on the front lines but I was in the Department of Pathology at this time and thus around Michalopoulos. None of this changes the overriding point against the suggestion that innovation in the bio and health sciences somehow doesn't reside within the university, nor was it intended to more than a quick overview.

What goes on at Clapp and Langley Hall is unrelated to Biomedical Sciences in the BST. Said differently, any professors I had in undergrad were total unknowns by the people in the BST who I did research with and the people I trained under. Wherever you get your information, Pitt marketing perhaps, it is largely an embellishment. UPMC runs the show. Pitt rides the coattails.

I don’t disagree that it works for the University.

BTW. Kenny looks real good tonight.

 

[chirurgo]

Would you prefer your health system operate in the red, live hand to mouth, not be able to attract and afford the best and brightest talent? Not me.
As much as people who live in Pittsburgh enjoy it, the numbers strongly suggest that others do not feel that way.
I don't like UPMCs leadership, but I sure as hell respect it. Why? Because UPMC is our demon and even though it is as tough as nails, it is still local and thus subject to local influence. You want it run out of Houston, Cleveland, Philly? Not I.
Highmark has marched legions of executive vps down the charity gala aisle for decades. Each EVP tasked with telling the other EVPs just how smart they were. Highmark was fat and lazy for 20 years...and then UPMC came in hard and tight with fastballs!
Then HIGHMARK realized it had a legion of highly educated, unproductive EVPs and they got their undies in a bunch!
Too bad.
Pitt and UPMC are 2 of the 3 reasons Pittsburgh is relevant. CMU is the other.

I’d prefer the health system function with an operating margin of 2-5% like a healthy nonprofit does. I’d like them to focus more on taking care of patients and training physicians than buying every hospital in PA to expand the health plans footprint.

The bigger it gets, the more quality suffers.

geez. I am beginning to think you are Jeffrey Romoff’s 7th wife. And for future rebuttals, please limit to 10 lines. I’d be happy to recommend you to the chancellor for a PR post

 

[CrazyPaco]

What goes on at Clapp and Langley Hall is unrelated to Biomedical Sciences in the BST. Said differently, any professors I had in undergrad were total unknowns by the people in the BST who I did research with and the people I trained under. Wherever you get your information, Pitt marketing perhaps, it is largely an embellishment. UPMC runs the show. Pitt rides the coattails.

I don’t disagree that it works for the University.

BTW. Kenny looks real good tonight.

That all depends and who is collaborating with whom. I worked in labs in both Crawford and BST, at the same time. It is absolutely false that researchers in the CLC complex don't know those is the BSTs. You think David Lewis in BST doesn't know Tony Grace in Langley? Heck, they've been coauthors. There are many collaborative mechanisms, like the CNUP, that provides bridges, and that has existed for a long time. But it all depends whose work you need to collaborate with. Someone in Clapp studying botany isn't going to know a neuropathologist in BST, absolutely not. It is very much based on individual labs and their focuses, but people in complementary fields do know each other and collaborate when it makes sense.

 

[superstein61a]

Cut and paste from what?

Yes, you are right about UPP forming later to unify the practice plans that were absorbed into UPMC. There were about 18 or so separate practice plans that consolidated into UPP, and that was a tough lift from what I understand. That was my bad recollection of that. I don't know about the internal intrigue that helped forge the merger, but I remember strong resistance to it and pay cuts of faculty when this went down, and take your word for it and it makes sense as a catalyst that would be used to break down the fiefdoms. I appreciate the insight. I also remember one of the fears of UPP being absorbed by UPMC was that it would undercut the academic mission of the med school in that UPMC would overemphasize clinical revenues over research and have too much power over the med school's finances, etc. In the long run, those fears appear to have been unfounded as the med school's academic status is stronger than ever. I wasn't on the front lines but I was in the Department of Pathology at this time and thus around Michalopoulos. None of this changes the overriding point against the suggestion that innovation in the bio and health sciences somehow doesn't reside within the university, nor was it intended to more than a quick overview.

As to the cut and paste - Well it seemed the wording was quite similar to the UPMC history on Wikipedia. But in any case, not really the main point.

That main point being that UPMC has driven their own growth and are the ones supporting the Universiity health sciences, not vice versa.

As I said, Pitt has been more along for the ride than driving the boat. And again, I am not saying that is a bad thing - it is a symbiotic relationship, and the University does its part, but the financial aspect and main decision making has been and remains controlled by the UPMC side

 

[CrazyPaco]

As to the cut and paste - Well it seemed the wording was quite similar to the UPMC history on Wikipedia. But in any case, not really the main point.

That main point being that UPMC has driven their own growth and are the ones supporting the Universiity health sciences, not vice versa.

As I said, Pitt has been more along for the ride than driving the boat. And again, I am not saying that is a bad thing - it is a symbiotic relationship, and the University does its part, but the financial aspect and main decision making has been and remains controlled by the UPMC

LOL, accused of plagiarizing myself. That’s a first. I’m sure you wouldn’t have known though: https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/University of Pittsburgh Medical Center

Who is driving the bus completely depends on what aspect and what fields, and I’ll just leave it at that. UPMC drives some things, Pitt others. UPMC sets some recruiting priorities, Pitt’s academic Divisions or equivalents set others. Money influences things, but not all money comes from one or the other. Most of the time it just makes sense for both.

 

[HailtoPitt]

To ignore you go!

 

[SouthSidePanther]

All I know is that Pitt's med school has too much loot and the football program too little.

 

[ThePanthers]

All I know is that Pitt's med school has too much loot and the football program too little.

Football donors better step up

 

[GreatBear71]

I know, I’m just trying to smoke out people that will say they’d rather stay at Heinz than have a brand new on campus stadium.

I prefer Heinz

 

[JokePa]

I never went to Pitt stadium (was torn down when I was 4 or 5) and my dad said I was never there. That being said, with the #OurTeamNotHis trend, I saw some people joke about #OurStadiumNotHeinz . If Pitt were to ever build a new on-campus stadium I would love for it to be a replica of Pitt Stadium (New Pitt Stadium) like Old v New Yankee Stadium. I think Pitt stadium, from the outside, looked so cool.

Pitt stadium was a complete sh!thole. The only cool thing was the big mural.

 

[NTOP]

Where's the casino in Oakland? How about stage AE? All the parking lots for tailgating? How about numerous (including upscale) restaurants? Is Oakland right on the river? Awesome freeway access too

Upscale restaurants on the North Shoe??? Hyde Park and hot dogs in the stadium....and hyde park is overrated

 

[the_insider_]

pitt cant afford to buy an abandoned high school in Oakland in an open bid and you guys think they can afford to drop a half billion on a stadium?

I hope this is sarcasm

 

[bwh05]

Upscale restaurants on the North Shoe??? Hyde Park and hot dogs in the stadium....and hyde park is overrated

Yes it’s so great on the North Shore yet still no one goes.

 

[GreatBear71]

Heinz Field... better traffic flow than Oakland, better parking / tailgates than Oakland, more options for things to do pre/post game than Oakland and much more comfortable seating and amenities than Pitt Stadium. Boy, what a drag

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HailtoPitt]

Again. I don't agree that there are more things to do on the North Shore than in Oakland. Some of you act like Oakland has nothing, as if you have never even been there.

 

[Joe Magarac]

Sure, but not as much fun. The place is too big, cold and IMHO ugly.

The only issue in which you are correct is that Heinz is too big. The other issues are subjective.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Again. I don't agree that there are more things to do on the North Shore than in Oakland. Some of you act like Oakland has nothing, as if you have never even been there.

You’re on the couch regardless.
So it’s not like it matters

 

[HailtoPitt]

You’re on the couch regardless.
So it’s not like it matters

I'll take that comment as your way of agreeing with me about Oakland.

 

[Delpanther]

Nowhere near a majority among season ticket holders.

You'd be hard pressed to find many who were season tickets holders at both Pitt Stadium and Heinz that would choose Pitt Stadium.

Nobody sane, anyways.

Nonsense...

 

[Delpanther]

Pitt Stadium was historical for sure, but c'mon it was a dump. Bottle necks trying to get in, not enough food stands, small bathrooms and bench seating. We're very happy at Heinz.

Leave earlier, pack a lunch, control your bladder and get your own seat back. North Side is a dump. College FB is meant to be played on campus. Nerdy was a bum!

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

im starting to lighten up on my criticism towards the north shore.. still cookie cutter sports bar mecca but that's not entirely a bad thing. bar louie replicas aren't exactly over flowing with ambience but at least it's indoors and has food and beer..

A boring bar beats no bar anyday.. for that, im easing up on the north shore.. there are worse surrounding areas outside a major sports venue than what we have at Heinz.. the stadium still sucks but at least you got options pre and post game..

 

[HailtoPitt]

Nowhere near a majority among season ticket holders.

You'd be hard pressed to find many who were season tickets holders at both Pitt Stadium and Heinz that would choose Pitt Stadium.

Nobody sane, anyways.

It's not a real choice. We can't compare HF to the version of Pitt Stadium that was allowed to fall apart. We need to compare thinking about what a renovated or new Pitt Stadium would be like.

 

[NTOP]

It's not a real choice. We can't compare HF to the version of Pitt Stadium that was allowed to fall apart. We need to compare thinking about what a renovated or new Pitt Stadium would be like.

I'd rather be thinking about a phone call from Charlize Theron. Better chance of it happening.

 

[chirurgo]

Nonsense...

I am sane and a season ticket holder since 1994. I prefer PItt Stadium because I prefer to be on campus both before and after the game. For that matter, I prefer to walk to and from my hotel both before and after the game. I don’t care about traffic, tailgating under an overpass or next to/within a parking garage. The college game belongs on a college campus.

 

[Delpanther]

I am sane and a season ticket holder since 1994. I prefer PItt Stadium because I prefer to be on campus both before and after the game. For that matter, I prefer to walk to and from my hotel both before and after the game. I don’t care about traffic, tailgating under an overpass or next to/within a parking garage. The college game belongs on a college campus.

Agree on all counts!!!!!!

 

[upj87]

i would rather stay at Heinz than deal with the traffic and parking nightmare in Oakland at a brand new stadium. I bet a large number of people feel the same way. Traffic ingress and egress is terrible. Parking is impossible. Heinz is far superior in that regard plus it has modern amenities

plus it has modern amenities
I could be wrong but I am guessing a new on campus stadium would have some of dem dare whatchamacall newfangled nemities......