The problem with the Pirates

[FreeportPanther]

Yeah, just look at what they've done. They had the best record in all of baseball last year but didn't win in the playoffs. So what did they do in the off seasons? SPEND!

Wait, hold on a second, in looking at the actual numbers the Dodgers actually CUT their payroll $74 MILLION in the off season. But that can't be right. That means that they were close by any definition of the word, and yet somehow they actually slashed payroll. They must not have gotten the memo that when they were close they were supposed to SPEND!

LOL, they "cut" payroll but still have the third highest payroll in MLB.
They cut from a ludicrous level to an incredible level, which gives them leeway to spend back up to ludicrous to make a run this year.

Talk about twisting yourself into a pretzel to normalize what has happened here. Perhaps your posting name should be Gumby!

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

LOL, they "cut" payroll but still have the third highest payroll in MLB.
They cut from a ludicrous level to an incredible level, which gives them leeway to spend back up to ludicrous to make a run this year.

Talk about twisting yourself into a pretzel to normalize what has happened here. Perhaps your posting name should be Gumby!

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing (and a google search for a cool image) by simply saying "gee, I didn't know that, I was wrong."

 

[FreeportPanther]

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing (and a google search for a cool image) by simply saying "gee, I didn't know that, I was wrong."

Wrong about what?
You'll have to wait until the trade deadline to see if I was wrong.
But yeah, the Dodgers are cheap....if you say so.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Wrong about what?

You said that if the Dodgers were close they'd spend. The Dodgers were close the second that last season ended. And they shed payroll like a drunken sailor on shore leave. In other words, they did exactly the opposite of what you said. If you don't understand how that makes you wrong then you don't understand the concept.

 

[FreeportPanther]

You said that if the Dodgers were close they'd spend. The Dodgers were close the second that last season ended. And they shed payroll like a drunken sailor on shore leave. In other words, they did exactly the opposite of what you said. If you don't understand how that makes you wrong then you don't understand the concept.

I wasn't talking about last season, was I?
I was predicting what they would do this season if they were in it, wasn't I?

That they dumped some dead weight AFTER last season makes perfect sense as it gives them flexibility to SPEND when it counts.

I'm done with you now. I will continue this conversation with one of my doorknobs.

 

[pitt2533]

You said that if the Dodgers were close they'd spend. The Dodgers were close the second that last season ended. And they shed payroll like a drunken sailor on shore leave. In other words, they did exactly the opposite of what you said. If you don't understand how that makes you wrong then you don't understand the concept.

They technically shed payroll but they shed by getting rid of 78 million from players who literally did not help them at all or even play. They shed 21 Million from Gonzalez, 21 million from Crawford, 17.5 million from Eithier and Kazir 17.6 Million.

So they went from a whopping 260 million payroll down to a tiny 196 million payroll. Must be tough fielding a team penny pinching like that.

Did they let any player they really wanted to stay leave based on salary? We all know that is not the case.

99% of the salary they shed was dead contracts to guys that were not even playing anymore.

 

[FreeportPanther]

They technically shed payroll but they shed by getting rid of 78 million from players who literally did not help them at all or even play. They shed 21 Million from Gonzalez, 21 million from Crawford, 17.5 million from Eithier and Kazir 17.6 Million.

So they went from a whopping 260 million payroll down to a tiny 196 million payroll. Must be tough fielding a team penny pinching like that.

Did they let any player they really wanted to stay leave based on salary? We all know that is not the case.

99% of the salary they shed was dead contracts to guys that were not even playing anymore.

Rather than continuing this conversation with Mrs. Nutting, may I suggest you will have a more intelligent conversation with this:

 

[paulbl99]

Rather than continuing this conversation with Mrs. Nutting, may I suggest you will have a more intelligent conversation with this:

Hilarious......


But from what I saw last night looks like the Dodgers brought that 80 mil back last week.....ouch

 

[FreeportPanther]

Hilarious......


But from what I saw last night looks like the Dodgers brought that 80 mil back last week.....ouch

At least the Bucco's kept it close!

I think the Dodgers could have beat them with the players they dumped to save the 80 Mil!

 

[paulbl99]

At least the Bucco's kept it close!

I think the Dodgers could have beat them with the players they dumped to save the 80 Mil!

Lol
I’ll be back tonight. 3-2 Bucs haha.


You know with the Nutting suck ups it always comes around to the Dodgers and Yankees , who no Pirate fan even has that on their radar......

but they constantly want to yap about them.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

If anybody didn't see the highlights from last night.......

 

[FreeportPanther]

Lol
I’ll be back tonight. 3-2 Bucs haha.


You know with the Nutting suck ups it always comes around to the Dodgers and Yankees , who no Pirate fan even has that on their radar......

but they constantly want to yap about them.

Yep, the Indians or Brewers should be our benchmarks to emulate. They know how to do it with a budget within the small market parameters.

 

[FreeportPanther]

If anybody didn't see the highlights from last night.......

View embedded media

Perfect.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Yep, the Indians or Brewers should be our benchmarks to emulate. They know how to do it with a budget within the small market parameters.

Well they (and the Royals) are all markets similar or even smaller than the Pirates. When they felt their teams were ready, they went for it. The Royals were rewarded, the Indians lost in the WS in extra innings in Game 7 and the Brewers are currently leading the NL Central. The Pirates win 98 games, mind you in a division were another team won 100 and another team won 97 and blew it up and decreased payroll by $20 million. We were told "financial flexibility" was what they were striving for. This offseason they didn't sign one free agent.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Well they (and the Royals) are all markets similar or even smaller than the Pirates. When they felt their teams were ready, they went for it. The Royals were rewarded, the Indians lost in the WS in extra innings in Game 7 and the Brewers are currently leading the NL Central. The Pirates win 98 games, mind you in a division were another team won 100 and another team won 97 and blew it up and decreased payroll by $20 million. We were told "financial flexibility" was what they were striving for. This offseason they didn't sign one free agent.

J. Happ is 10-4
Charlie Morton is 10-2
Gerrit Cole is 9-2 (with 151 K's!)
Combined 29-8.
The genius that is Ray Searage!

 

[pitt2533]

J. Happ is 10-4
Charlie Morton is 10-2
Gerrit Cole is 9-2 (with 151 K's!)
Combined 29-8.
The genius that is Ray Searage!

Agree overall, but he was part of Happ's turnaround. The Bucs in their standard Operating procedure then let him walk because they were not willing to sign him to a reasonable 3 yr 36 million dollar contract.

But yes, the time to start questioning Uncle Ray is upon us. I don't see that much improvement from their pitchers. Tailon is regressing, Kuhl has not really improved, Williams was ok but has regressed recently, Glasnow is better in pen but was a total failure as a starter, Nova was awful 2nd half of last season, Vasquez regressing this year, and so on.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Agree overall, but he was part of Happ's turnaround. The Bucs in their standard Operating procedure then let him walk because they were not willing to sign him to a reasonable 3 yr 36 million dollar contract.

But yes, the time to start questioning Uncle Ray is upon us. I don't see that much improvement from their pitchers. Tailon is regressing, Kuhl has not really improved, Williams was ok but has regressed recently, Glasnow is better in pen but was a total failure as a starter, Nova was awful 2nd half of last season, Vasquez regressing this year, and so on.

Anywhere else, ie. normal world, Hurdle, Searage and the entire coaching staff would have been fired by now.
Huntington and Coonelly would also be gone for poor talent evaluation and development.

However, in the Bizarro Nutting world, they're all safe and secure.
The best management team in baseball!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

J. Happ is 10-4
Charlie Morton is 10-2
Gerrit Cole is 9-2 (with 151 K's!)
Combined 29-8.
The genius that is Ray Searage!

I said a couple of years ago, are we sure the real genius wasn't Jim Benedict who went to the Marlins, when 2104 or 2015?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Anywhere else, ie. normal world, Hurdle, Searage and the entire coaching staff would have been fired by now.
Huntington and Coonelly would also be gone for poor talent evaluation and development.

However, in the Bizarro Nutting world, they're all safe and secure.
The best management team in baseball!

Oh dead on. Trading Cole didn't upset me, I expected that to happen when he first came up. Now the return upset me a bit. Trading Cutch definitely didn't upset me. In fact, I thought it was 2 years too late. What upset me is they resigned the troika of bullcrappers that run the franchise and team. Otherwise known as THE BEST MANAGEMENT TEAM IN SPORTS (I am sure the Penguins have a good laugh at this).....

I mean when they did that, the same poor drafts, the same poor development, the same poor fundamentals and managing decisions on top of the same bottom quartile payroll and look folks, the groundhog saw his shadow again.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Oh dead on. Trading Cole didn't upset me, I expected that to happen when he first came up. Now the return upset me a bit. Trading Cutch definitely didn't upset me. In fact, I thought it was 2 years too late. What upset me is they resigned the troika of bullcrappers that run the franchise and team. Otherwise known as THE BEST MANAGEMENT TEAM IN SPORTS (I am sure the Penguins have a good laugh at this).....

I mean when they did that, the same poor drafts, the same poor development, the same poor fundamentals and managing decisions on top of the same bottom quartile payroll and look folks, the groundhog saw his shadow again.

The even sadder thing is, when the inevitable fire sale comes this year, the return will be even more abysmal.

The only slightly valuable trade chip is Harrison, and he projects as a utility player on a contender.
Maybe Nova to a contender looking for a pitcher, Rivero/Vasquez maybe, but he's been inconsistent.
Other position players? Polanco plays like Kerplunko; Cervelli is as fragile as a fresh quail egg, Dickerson has followed his former pattern and is fading fast.
Mercer is solid, but most contenders have good SS's.

They will or should blow it up, but after the dust clears, all they'll have to show for it is a pile of rubble. There aren't any potential impact players ready to come up, and the fans have abandoned ship.
This is a really really sad state of affairs.
Steeler training camp a month away!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The even sadder thing is, when the inevitable fire sale comes this year, the return will be even more abysmal.

The only slightly valuable trade chip is Harrison, and he projects as a utility player on a contender.
Maybe Nova to a contender looking for a pitcher, Rivero/Vasquez maybe, but he's been inconsistent.
Other position players? Polanco plays like Kerplunko; Cervelli is as fragile as a fresh quail egg, Dickerson has followed his former pattern and is fading fast.
Mercer is solid, but most contenders have good SS's.

They will or should blow it up, but after the dust clears, all they'll have to show for it is a pile of rubble. There aren't any potential impact players ready to come up, and the fans have abandoned ship.
This is a really really sad state of affairs.
Steeler training camp a month away!

After the 98 win season in 2015, with hindsight, what the Pirates have done since then, they should have just blew it up right then and there. Traded Cole. Trade Cutch. The return would have been much better. Same with trading Liriano. Traded Alvarez. Just completely tank and trade every possible asset. If you are going to win 72, you might as well win 62 or 55. That being said, do you trust this group drafting and developing players? I don't. So would it matter?

 

[FreeportPanther]

After the 98 win season in 2015, with hindsight, what the Pirates have done since then, they should have just blew it up right then and there. Traded Cole. Trade Cutch. The return would have been much better.
Same with trading Liriano. Traded Alvarez. Just completely tank and trade every possible asset. If you are going to win 72, you might as well win 62 or 55. That being said, do you trust this group drafting and developing players? I don't. So would it matter?

No it probably wouldn't have. Remember all the high draft picks this team had all through the 90's, etc. from finishing last or near last year after year? Yeah, me neither because they were all pretty much busts.

The fixation on the 98 win team, as discussed before is overblown. That team was a mirage, feasting on the weaker teams in the West, but playing .500 or less within the division. They weren't really that good. OK, but not some juggernaut poised for a dominant run.
The years that followed were a big con job on the fans, creating the illusion that the Pirates were "back", when in fact the fans were being played to hype attendance and increase the gate which fattened the owner's checkbook.

 

[Panther Holla]

The post WW2 Pirates have always provided the city with a crappy product, save a ten year run in the 70's (of course, 1960 was an extraordinary outlier). You could even argue the 70's were disappointing given how good that team was. And yet the vast majority of the city has always been eager to jump back on the bandwagon. The Nutting's don't have to cultivate anything. Legions of Yinzers will come rushing back the moment a half-dozen rejects manage to cobble a season together with a budding prospect or two. They'll shake down the city over renovations or rent and cry about what a terrible deal it was, and then go back to fleecing the fans. It's not really a big deal because it's very workable and very profitable.

You could have fitted the Galbreath Pirates' collective marketing savvy on the head of a thimble and had room for Bob Prince. Aside from the Gunner pushing tickets on the radio they were terrible at selling the product at Forbes, where public transportation was plentiful, and at Three Rivers. Remember the "one-premium-item-per-parent-child-combination" policy?

 

[pittdan77]

No it probably wouldn't have. Remember all the high draft picks this team had all through the 90's, etc. from finishing last or near last year after year? Yeah, me neither because they were all pretty much busts.

The fixation on the 98 win team, as discussed before is overblown. That team was a mirage, feasting on the weaker teams in the West, but playing .500 or less within the division. They weren't really that good. OK, but not some juggernaut poised for a dominant run.
The years that followed were a big con job on the fans, creating the illusion that the Pirates were "back", when in fact the fans were being played to hype attendance and increase the gate which fattened the owner's checkbook.

The fact that the Pirates didn't make any roster improvements after 2013 to at least win that putrid division told you everything you needed to know about the commitment from ownership.

 

[pittdan77]

You could have fitted the Galbreath Pirates' collective marketing savvy on the head of a thimble and had room for Bob Prince. Aside from the Gunner pushing tickets on the radio they were terrible at selling the product at Forbes, where public transportation was plentiful, and at Three Rivers. Remember the "one-premium-item-per-parent-child-combination" policy?

$1 hotdogs and fireworks are all Pirate fans ever needed to show up. There's no genius necessary.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I will continue this conversation with one of my doorknobs.

At least that's something that you might be able to out think.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They technically shed payroll but they shed by getting rid of 78 million from players who literally did not help them at all or even play.

Exactly. They freed up $78 million on dead weight, and instead of investing that money in the team the owners put it in their pockets. They did exactly what Nutting does, except on a much, much larger scale. With a team that was much, much closer to winning a championship than the Pirates have been in nearly 40 years.

 

[pittdan77]

Exactly. They freed up $78 million on dead weight, and instead of investing that money in the team the owners put it in their pockets. They did exactly what Nutting does, except on a much, much larger scale. With a team that was much, much closer to winning a championship than the Pirates have been in nearly 40 years.

I think you're exaggerating the point. The Dodgers are still competitive and will probably finish the season that way with a payroll that's double the Pirates.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

I'm in the LA suburbs, and was thinking of going to the game tonight or tomorrow, but a) they've never won when I've gone to Dodger Stadium (I've had better luck in Anaheim and San Diego), and b) after last night, . . . FORGET IT!

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

One pitch--definitely worth staying home.

Well, make that five pitches.

 

[paulbl99]

One pitch--definitely worth staying home.

Well, make that five pitches.

Yeah but you could have had a Dodger Dog.

They look lifeless....going through the motion.
Disgraceful

And the pitching.....Liriano and a couple other Tomato Cans May have done alright when with Uncle Ray Ray....but what about these great young arms the Saber Geniuses were telling us were here or on the way.
Not to mention as pointed out above the 4 guys who are now pitching lights out since leaving Ray Ray and the Bucs.


More than the willingness to depart with a dime to add to the team, the Pirate organization’s development ability imo is coming into question year after year .....and Bubble Gums and staff seem to build nothing once these guys are making it to the Bigs......

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

More than the willingness to depart with a dime to add to the team, the Pirate organization’s development ability imo is coming into question year after year

I believe that is, by far, the Pirates biggest failing. How little they have gotten out of relatively high draft picks over the last ten years is criminal.

 

[paulbl99]

I believe that is, by far, the Pirates biggest failing. How little they have gotten out of relatively high draft picks over the last ten years is criminal.

Bothers me more than the payroll always brought up..

Marte and Polanco were advertised to be nothing short of incredible baseball talent.
Ok , don’t turn out to be super stars.....but Marte has been a bum in June and Polanco is well..........

The heralded pitching showing almost nothing...

So yeah agree w you

 

[pitt2533]

Exactly. They freed up $78 million on dead weight, and instead of investing that money in the team the owners put it in their pockets. They did exactly what Nutting does, except on a much, much larger scale. With a team that was much, much closer to winning a championship than the Pirates have been in nearly 40 years.

They didn't put it back into payroll because they really didn't have the holes to fill.

They are still spending 200 million on payroll.

Stop trying to equate what they did with what the Pirates did. It is not even remotely close to the same thing. If those players they shed $78 million on payroll were part of their core, I would almost guarantee they would not have shed payroll. Acting like the Dodgers are following a similar path to the Pirates by shedding payroll is disingenuous at best. Clearly that is not what they did. They shed payroll because they got rid of dead contracts and did not have the holes in their lineup to use the money on.

Now, I obviously understand their revenues and their ability to spend is much much much more realistic than that of the Pirates. No one in their right mind would expect the Pirates to spend what the Dodgers are spending.

But the Dodgers have lapped the Pirates by miles in their player development and producing legit MLB players and that is absolutely a valid comparison. They have produced more home grown players in the last couple years than the Pirates have produced in the last 20.

 

[pitt2533]

I believe that is, by far, the Pirates biggest failing. How little they have gotten out of relatively high draft picks over the last ten years is criminal.

We absolutely agree on this point...

Which is why I can't understand for the life of me why this FO, Coaching Staff, etc.. are still around.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

We absolutely agree on this point...

Which is why I can't understand for the life of me why this FO, Coaching Staff, etc.. are still around.

That's just it. The move that should have this dwindling fanbase outraged this past offseason is not moving Cole and McCutcheon, it is the extending the troika of incompetents, Coonelly (what does he exactly do anyways?), Huntingdon and Hurdle.

 

[pitt2533]

That's just it. The move that should have this dwindling fanbase outraged this past offseason is not moving Cole and McCutcheon, it is the extending the troika of incompetents, Coonelly (what does he exactly do anyways?), Huntingdon and Hurdle.

Yep, and to Joe's point about the Dodgers owners "pocketing" the money they saved on those contracts... frankly, I would have no issues with my teams owner pocketing whatever dollar amount he wanted if he had the team favored coming into the season to win the Division and be one of the true World Series contenders. More power to the Dodgers because while they certainly spend, they also develop a ton of players via their in house development system. That has allowed them to not have to spend to fill holes once the 78 million in dead contracts came off the books.

As I said, they have developed more legit Major League Players in the last 5 years than the Pirate have since the freaking 70s.

 

[pittdan77]

That's just it. The move that should have this dwindling fanbase outraged this past offseason is not moving Cole and McCutcheon, it is the extending the troika of incompetents, Coonelly (what does he exactly do anyways?), Huntingdon and Hurdle.

Maybe the fans don't like the way things are being handled but ownership couldn't be happier. To put it in perspective, the Pirates are about fourth from the bottom in payroll and yet a top ten franchise in terms of profits. Mission accomplished.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Maybe the fans don't like the way things are being handled but ownership couldn't be happier. To put it in perspective, the Pirates are about fourth from the bottom in payroll and yet a top ten franchise in terms of profits. Mission accomplished.

Really? First off, you want cheap, young, controllable players under contract. Whether you are the Yankees or the Pirates, this is the ideal situation. The days of the Yankees or Dodger dumping prospects for big veteran contracts has come and gone.

So the Pirates and Huntingdon are almost obsessive/compulsive with holding onto their prospects, touting them, and absolutely refusing to part with them (well except if it involves a salary dump). We know Tyler Glasnow and Gregory Polanco could have yielded Chris Sale. But no way the Pirates could mortgage the future. Or some combo of Glasnow, Polanco and Kingham or Meadows would have landed Giancarlo Stanton. Are you crazy? No way to mortgage the future. Let's look at some of the Pirates homegrown prospects over this management team's tenure.

Pedro Alvarez. One great season, many bad seasons, basically out baseball.
Gerrit Cole. One great season, but never approached the Ace role, traded to the Astros and of course is now pitching like well an Ace.
Jameson Taillon. Lots of setbacks, but....I mean.....what is he, he looks like a 4/5 starter at best.
Those guys were #1 or #2 overall. I mean, they should be no brainers.
Tony Sanchez, was a horrible pick. But he was picked to give you "financial flexibility" so the Pirates can overspend and their next picks were Vic Black, Brooks Pounders and Evan Burroughs. Ahhhh yeah.
Who else?
Reese McGuire. He stinks, so we gave him up so the Jays would take Liriano's salary. Wait a minute, if he stinks, why did we draft him?
Adam Meadows. Okay, had a nice start though a bit later than we hoped, but he is not exactly Mike Trout.
Josh Bell, the big overslot player, OK, the Pirates outthought and outspend the big boys by drafting him in the 2nd rd and convincing him to go to the minors and not University of Texas. He has 6 HR's and is batting .260 and it is almost the All Star break. He still has issues at 1B.
Finally the Pirates have some success so they finally draft out of the top 10.
2014 #1 Cole Tucker. ?????
Kevin Kramer? He's 24
Kevin Newman? He's 24.
Nick Kingham? He's 26.
Clay Holmes? He's 25.
My point here, these guys aren't exactly spring chickens.
Mitch Keller, yes he is someone to be excited about. So was Tyler Glasnow.

Then there is that vaunted Latin American Academy.
Starling Marte? Could possibly be the lowest baseball IQ in the majors. Looked like he was going to be another Carlos Beltran. He isn't.
Gregory Polanco. He was ranked in the top 5 of prospects, just looked like another potential Giancarlo Stanton. He is about the most nonchalant player, hasn't improved one bit, and is an average at best major leaguer.
Alan Hansen? Nice to know you.

So the latest group of prospects whether home grown or acquired via trade, who really can be excited or believed that they are going to be any different? In 2014, when the Pirates were fighting for a WC spot and also top records in baseball, I think MLB.com ranked their system #1, with prospects Polanco, Glasnow, Taillon, Meadows, Bell, McGuire, Hansen all were ranked in the top 100. The Pirates were simply unwilling to part with any of these guys to put them maybe over the top, to jump the Cards and acquire that ace or acquire a top power hitter. Any combo of that group could have yielded true superstars, you know the types of players the World Series winning teams acquire. Now, already one of that group was included in a salary dump, and Glasnow and Polanco would be lucky to fetch a middle inning reliever.

So......is it talent evaluation? I mean in the case of some of those guys, they were picked were they were ranked. I think to a point it is talent evaluation, but I think it is mostly coaching and development. Gorkys Hernandez couldn't hit a ball out of the infield here, he has hit 11 HR's. Keon Broxton is major player for the Brewers. Charlie Morton is an Ace and a Cy Young candidate. Gerrit Cole leads in strikeouts. He couldn't miss a bat here. Isn't it uncanny how players here get worse, really fast? Pedro. Cole. Marte. Bell.

And the guys responsible for this whole mess get 4 years extension by ownership because they have shown improvement and have unfinished business? They wonder why people aren't going? Aren't watching on TV? Aren't subscribing to prospect websites? And on top of this, you get insulting and demeaning double speak from Pirates management like we are idiots.

I don't go to games, but worse than that, I don't watch games anymore on TV. I am sick of this group, the owner is the owner, but these guys running this team from President to GM to Manager to Pitching Coach, the whole lot of them are lousy and they are reupped?

The Pirates are simply not worth my time.

 

[pittdan77]

So......is it talent evaluation? I mean in the case of some of those guys, they were picked were they were ranked. I think to a point it is talent evaluation, but I think it is mostly coaching and development.

All I've heard for the past half-dozen years is how great the Pirates' minor league system is and how it's the envy of the league. I never believed any of it because the Pirates are always sell hype better than they play baseball. You're not wrong but as much as salaries of the ML roster are a factor, the investment in the minors is probably much worse. I think you're right but it largely doesn't matter so long as the results are profit. To that end, ownership is quite satisfied.