The problem with the Pirates

[pitt2533]

So, because no one "predicted" that the players acquired would perform so well, in spite of them actually performing well and actually assisting in getting the Pirates to the WC game should be the litmus test?

Wow.

I'd hate to work for you. Let's see......I see something no one else sees, make some moves and the company makes tons of money. You call me in and tell me, Yeah, the company made millions because of your shrewd moves, but we have to let you go because no one would have predicted it!

The same crowd bemoaning the acquisition of Happ howled the loudest when the Pirates let him walk!
I get the Nutting hate, I hate him and this situation as well, but at least make sense, particularly with the benefit of hindsight.
The 98 win team was a mirage. Just like the Miracle team that contended briefly in the late 90's.

Come on, that is not what happened and you know it. The Pirates didn't see something in Happ that no one else did leading to them acquiring him.

They grabbed him at the 11th hour after their other moves fell through because they were unwilling to pull the trigger. He was literally like their 20th option that season.

You think the Pirates thought Happ would outperform Price or a number of other pitchers traded during that trade deadline year in the 2nd half of that season and that is why they acquired him? You really think that?

This wasn't a business man seeing an opportunity that no one else sees so your example is not relevant at all.

This was a team that grabbed what was left on the scrap heap in Happ and got lucky with the results.

They tried doing the same garbage when Burnett retired by continuing to trot out Jeff Locke, adding a 39 year old Vogelsong, etc.. to replace guys in the rotation when they had a legit chance to compete.

 

[paulbl99]

Obviously today's Bucs are a hot mess, but I don't get your logic above.
The 3 pitchers the Pirates got at the deadline that year went something like 14-3 down the stretch, no matter how much they made.
Would you have felt better if they got 3 more expensive guys who contributed nothing?

That Pirate team was more mirage than anything getting to 98 wins. Their record in their division pretty much sucked, they feasted on lesser teams.
The two biggest problems at the end was Kang getting his leg tore apart, and Jake Arietta.

That said, in any normal organization experiencing a total collapse like this one, Hurdle would be GONE. The team obviously has no respect for him and won't play hard for him.
Look at Polanco not running out a ground ball to right field. He should have had his ass chewed out ala Billy Martin.
Then there is proof that the team is fractured. Remember the dugout confrontation between Freese and the 3rd base coach over retaliating for a player getting hit? Freese should have been gone the next day!

Searage, the miracle worker, has run out of magic. This pitching staff from top to bottom is horrible and getting worse. The team has scored enough runs to be at least around .500, but no lead is safe with this bullpen.

Best to ignore them because nothing will change under this regime, and its pretty obvious Nutting isn't going anywhere, and he's the boss, and he loves his management team.

Pirates are set up nicely for another 20 year run of putridness.
The only thing still in question is how low can attendance/interest go?

You don’t go from 98 to 70 something wo wanting to.
Bottom line this is Nutting.

He doesn’t give a flying flip about the product on the field. Ever

 

[paulbl99]

Come on, that is not what happened and you know it. The Pirates didn't see something in Happ that no one else did leading to them acquiring him.

They grabbed him at the 11th hour after their other moves fell through because they were unwilling to pull the trigger. He was literally like their 20th option that season.

You think the Pirates thought Happ would outperform Price or a number of other pitchers traded during that trade deadline year in the 2nd half of that season and that is why they acquired him? You really think that?

This wasn't a business man seeing an opportunity that no one else sees so your example is not relevant at all.

This was a team that grabbed what was left on the scrap heap in Happ and got lucky with the results.

They tried doing the same garbage when Burnett retired by continuing to trot out Jeff Locke, adding a 39 year old Vogelsong, etc.. to replace guys in the rotation when they had a legit chance to compete.

Spit on

 

[FreeportPanther]

Come on, that is not what happened and you know it. The Pirates didn't see something in Happ that no one else did leading to them acquiring him.

They grabbed him at the 11th hour after their other moves fell through because they were unwilling to pull the trigger. He was literally like their 20th option that season.

You think the Pirates thought Happ would outperform Price or a number of other pitchers traded during that trade deadline year in the 2nd half of that season and that is why they acquired him? You really think that?

This wasn't a business man seeing an opportunity that no one else sees so your example is not relevant at all.

This was a team that grabbed what was left on the scrap heap in Happ and got lucky with the results.

They tried doing the same garbage when Burnett retired by continuing to trot out Jeff Locke, adding a 39 year old Vogelsong, etc.. to replace guys in the rotation when they had a legit chance to compete.

Teams should be judged by their results, not on how much they spend.
Using your logic, the Dodgers, Yankees or Cubs should win every year, and they don't.

You did a total 180 above. First you conceded the Pirates can't compete for the high priced players, then you damn them for actually acquiring players who performed better than the high priced players for less money! The Pirates management team sucks for many reasons, but acquiring low cost players who outperformed higher cost players is an odd reason to damn them.

So you'd be happier if the Pirates finished last with a $180 million payroll than if they won the Series with a $100 million payroll? That's your argument.

Doesn't matter though, they aren't changing so best to ignore them.

 

[FreeportPanther]

You don’t go from 98 to 70 something wo wanting to.
Bottom line this is Nutting.

He doesn’t give a flying flip about the product on the field. Ever

When did I ever say he did?
I accept the reality of the situation. Nutting ain't going anywhere. He has a pat hand and he's in total control. He'll give the team to his kids and this will continue as long as they want it to.

NDS?

You can go from 98 to 70 something when the 98 was a fluke, and it was.

 

[Panther Holla]

Clint Hurdle missed his calling as a Carnival Cruise Director.

If he stood on the bridge of the Titanic, he'd gush about how all the passengers get a free swim.

 

[paulbl99]

When did I ever say he did?
I accept the reality of the situation. Nutting ain't going anywhere. He has a pat hand and he's in total control. He'll give the team to his kids and this will continue as long as they want it to.

NDS?

You can go from 98 to 70 something when the 98 was a fluke, and it was.

That’s a lot of wins any way you slice it. Any yr in baseball history since 162.
It was not a fluke I will never buy that.

And neither was the tank job, it was a purposefully payroll dump.

 

[Delpanther]

Obviously today's Bucs are a hot mess, but I don't get your logic above.
The 3 pitchers the Pirates got at the deadline that year went something like 14-3 down the stretch, no matter how much they made.
Would you have felt better if they got 3 more expensive guys who contributed nothing?

That Pirate team was more mirage than anything getting to 98 wins. Their record in their division pretty much sucked, they feasted on lesser teams.
The two biggest problems at the end was Kang getting his leg tore apart, and Jake Arietta.

That said, in any normal organization experiencing a total collapse like this one, Hurdle would be GONE. The team obviously has no respect for him and won't play hard for him.
Look at Polanco not running out a ground ball to right field. He should have had his ass chewed out ala Billy Martin.
Then there is proof that the team is fractured. Remember the dugout confrontation between Freese and the 3rd base coach over retaliating for a player getting hit? Freese should have been gone the next day!

Searage, the miracle worker, has run out of magic. This pitching staff from top to bottom is horrible and getting worse. The team has scored enough runs to be at least around .500, but no lead is safe with this bullpen.

Best to ignore them because nothing will change under this regime, and its pretty obvious Nutting isn't going anywhere, and he's the boss, and he loves his management team.

Pirates are set up nicely for another 20 year run of putridness.
The only thing still in question is how low can attendance/interest go?

Back in the day I was excoriated( probably even by you)for making the point in your second paragraph that the 98 win team was indeed a mirage, an overachieving team with clear holes just waiting to fall apart. I was, of course spot on as I have been about all things related to the Bucs and Nutting.

 

[Delpanther]

That’s a lot of wins any way you slice it. Any yr in baseball history since 162.
It was not a fluke I will never buy that.

And neither was the tank job, it was a purposefully payroll dump.

That 98 win team wasn’t a good offensive team and struggled to score runs every time they faced a decent pitcher. They had no third baseman, no first baseman and no right fielder fielder. Too many holes....just another Nutting con job embraced by unknowledgable BB fans.

 

[paulbl99]

That 98 win team wasn’t a good offensive team and struggled to score runs every time they faced a decent pitcher. They had no third baseman, no first baseman and no right fielder fielder. Too many holes....just another Nutting con job embraced by unknowledgable BB fans.

They won 98 games.
That wasn’t a fluke ....98 /162 is no fluke

The Sabers aren’t always right.

Neither was tanking a fluke, it was a deliberate money wise decision to dump payroll

And it’s going to continue and get worse, they’re not going to sniff .500

 

[Delpanther]

Clint Hurdle missed his calling as a Carnival Cruise Director.

If he stood on the bridge of the Titanic, he'd gush about how all the passengers get a free swim.

After Rothelusburger, aka Fathead Ben, Hurdle has the second fattest head in the 412 code area...what a fat head that guy has.

 

[Delpanther]

They win 98 games.
That wasn’t a fluke ....98 /162 is no fluke
The Sabers aren’t always right.

Yes it was... that team had major holes...which were glaring and manifested themselves in the playoffs. Championship caliber teams don’t have holes at 33% of their starting positions unless they have extraordinary pitching. I-absolutely knew that team was going nowhere in the playoffs the way they struggled to score.

The worst team (starting lineup) that I can ever remember which won the World Series were the Dodger teams with Wills, Rosborough and Willie and Tommy Davis but they won because in Koufax and Drysdale they had 2 of the greatest starters of all time, along with Regan in the bullpen. The Bucs had a similarly flawed starting lineup but dudn’t have the caliber of starters the Dodgers had.

 

[jtownknowitall]

That 98 win team wasn’t a good offensive team and struggled to score runs every time they faced a decent pitcher.

All teams struggle to score runs when they face decent pitchers.

 

[pitt2533]

Teams should be judged by their results, not on how much they spend.
Using your logic, the Dodgers, Yankees or Cubs should win every year, and they don't.

You did a total 180 above. First you conceded the Pirates can't compete for the high priced players, then you damn them for actually acquiring players who performed better than the high priced players for less money! The Pirates management team sucks for many reasons, but acquiring low cost players who outperformed higher cost players is an odd reason to damn them.

So you'd be happier if the Pirates finished last with a $180 million payroll than if they won the Series with a $100 million payroll? That's your argument.

Doesn't matter though, they aren't changing so best to ignore them.

No I didn't do any 180. I conceded that overall the Pirates can't compete for high priced players on a normal basis with those respective teams.

But they absolutely can and should compete for those high priced players on the rare occasion they are competing for a Division title and a World Series and their payroll is below 100 million and they have a hole or two to fill.

The year in question, David Price had one year left on $20 million contact meaning the Pirates would have owed about $8 million of that for the rest of the year. The Pirates also had a payroll in bottom 5 of league with record attendance numbers. They are totally unwilling to add any player in a scenario like that. That is my criticism.

You can continue to point to me saying I am criticizing them for obtaining a player who produced more. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that no GM or Team in the league would have imagined Happ outproducing Price at the time of acquisition. Any GM, any Team would have taken Price over Happ 100 out 100 times in that scenario if salaries were equal. Can you really say otherwise? The SOLE reason the Pirates acquired Happ was because they struck out on their other targets. He was an 11th hour fall back option they acquired because they didn't want to spend money/assets on other targets. Can you seriously dispute that?

The fact that they got extremely lucky with Happ's miracle mid season turn around does not give them a free pass in my eyes for how they acquired him and WHY they acquired him. The reality is they acquired him because he was cheap and they got lucky in doing so.

They have made a number of similar moves trying to sign scrap heap guys in hopes they magically turn it around. A few have worked but the majority have not. The proof is in the results.

And your last comment is beyond moronic. You know damn well I am not saying that. No where have I said anything about rather having a team finish last with 180 million payroll versus winning a world series with a 100 million payroll. You are being disingenuous at best here. No where did I say to raise salary for the sake of saying the payroll is high.


.

 

[Delpanther]

All teams struggle to score runs when they face decent pitchers.

Not really.... 71 and 79 Pirates scored against just about everybody.....

 

[jtownknowitall]

At least as you remember some 48 years later, they did!

 

[Delpanther]

At least as you remember some 48 years later, they did!

Saw lots of games those two teams played...yea the Gibson’s and Seavers of the day would hold them down from time to time but those teams had at least 7 solid hitters in the lineup, had good power and were very consistent scoring runs.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Turned them off again after Bell's throw. Can't take it.

 

[Swervin27]

Turned them off again after Bell's throw. Can't take it.

lol, I did the same thing. bell's throw was one of the more amusing things I've seen in a long time.

 

[pitt2533]

lol, I did the same thing. bell's throw was one of the more amusing things I've seen in a long time.

He is quickly becoming Pedro Alvarez part II......

 

[pittdan77]

So is the boycott working?

 

[Swervin27]

He is quickly becoming Pedro Alvarez part II......

Saw Pedro was just cut or re-assigned last week.

 

[Delpanther]

Saw Pedro was just cut or re-assigned last week.

Pirates will probably reacquire him and he’ll start the next day.... one of the laziest players I’ve ever seen.

 

[Panther Holla]

Burn, Buccos, burn.

 

[Swervin27]

Pirates will probably reacquire him and he’ll start the next day.... one of the laziest players I’ve ever seen.

I loved Pedro, dude hit bombs. I could live with his defense at first, IF he was hitting. His glove was good, dude just was killing people in the stands with his arm. First basemen don't need an arm. The 3-6-3 double play balls happen once a month, he throws a ball into left field once a month, im ok with that.

his downfall was just not being able to lay off outside pitches, (Or being able to hit them.)

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Pirates will probably reacquire him and he’ll start the next day....

Will work for food?

(Actually, that would be rather appealing to Bob Nothing.)

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

The Blunder Company! NO lead is safe.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

The Blunder Company!

And so it continues . . .

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Spend Nutting. Win Nutting.

 

[pittdan77]

Bumped for the slow week on the Lair.

 

[WiseAndGlorious]

When will this ship out Nova to resume the non-rebuilding process?

 

[pittdan77]

When will this ship out Nova to resume the non-rebuilding process?

Tim Tebow.....just sayin'.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Bumped for the slow week on the Lair.

Yeah, discussion of the dynamic Pirates will spice things up.

 

[pittdan77]

Yeah, discussion of the dynamic Pirates will spice things up.

It's like throwing some tires on a dumpster fire. I'm trying over here.

 

[pitt2533]

Tailon is quickly becoming another disappointment in a long line of Top 5 picks that don't really pan out.

And yeah I feel a little bad saying that considering what he has been through but he is simply just a decent to good pitcher and doesn't appear like he will ever be an ACE that the Pirates sorely need.

 

[paulbl99]

Yeah, discussion of the dynamic Pirates will spice things up.

Right in the middle of the World Cup n@



Nutting sucks , but there’s worse crap out there than the Bucs lol.
162 is their friend.....

Cool off the Dodgers now....everybody out there has their mind on Bron !!!!!

 

[FreeportPanther]

Right in the middle of the World Cup n@



Nutting sucks , but there’s worse crap out there than the Bucs lol.
162 is their friend.....

Cool off the Dodgers now....everybody out there has their mind on Bron !!!!!

Daughters BF bet on the Dodgers to win it all when they were going bad. Got really good odds at the time. Bet looks better and better as time goes on. One thing for sure, if they're close, they'll SPEND!

He made $2100 on a $100 bet on the Caps before the season. Guess he knows how to pick them.

 

[Panther Holla]

Pirates will continue to hedge their bets, half-in and half-out of 'contention" until selling off assets becomes the obvious route. then the spin will be "a commitment to the nextgen' quietly introduced by the team and made the narrative by the fanboy and media followers. it's the only way to potentially win back the fan base. Start over and hope the fan loyalty gives them another chance. I am not so sure. The Nuttings might have to cultivate a new generation of bobblehead lovers to replace the hoardes they have turned off since 2015.

 

[pittdan77]

Pirates will continue to hedge their bets, half-in and half-out of 'contention" until selling off assets becomes the obvious route. then the spin will be "a commitment to the nextgen' quietly introduced by the team and made the narrative by the fanboy and media followers. it's the only way to potentially win back the fan base. Start over and hope the fan loyalty gives them another chance. I am not so sure. The Nuttings might have to cultivate a new generation of bobblehead lovers to replace the hoardes they have turned off since 2015.

The post WW2 Pirates have always provided the city with a crappy product, save a ten year run in the 70's (of course, 1960 was an extraordinary outlier). You could even argue the 70's were disappointing given how good that team was. And yet the vast majority of the city has always been eager to jump back on the bandwagon. The Nutting's don't have to cultivate anything. Legions of Yinzers will come rushing back the moment a half-dozen rejects manage to cobble a season together with a budding prospect or two. They'll shake down the city over renovations or rent and cry about what a terrible deal it was, and then go back to fleecing the fans. It's not really a big deal because it's very workable and very profitable.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

One thing for sure, if they're close, they'll SPEND!

Yeah, just look at what they've done. They had the best record in all of baseball last year but didn't win in the playoffs. So what did they do in the off seasons? SPEND!

Wait, hold on a second, in looking at the actual numbers the Dodgers actually CUT their payroll $74 MILLION in the off season. But that can't be right. That means that they were close by any definition of the word, and yet somehow they actually slashed payroll. They must not have gotten the memo that when they were close they were supposed to SPEND!