Are we speaking of Drumgoole or Horton here? I would hope and expect Horton to be in that range. Drumgoole would need to be in that range to not be collecting splinters, IMHO.
Vader Recruiting: Top returning talent in the ACC and Next Years Team
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Are we speaking of Drumgoole or Horton here? I would hope and expect Horton to be in that range. Drumgoole would need to be in that range to not be collecting splinters, IMHO.
I don't see how he is the leading scorer - they are going to have to us JC and Toney, and X is going to score some.
Key is the three - if he can get 9-10 points a game with hitting a couple threes a game at a solid or better %, that will space things enough to help the forwards get to work and X to be more efficient with his shooting.
They are turning two three year starters who are real good talents and one of the best freshman in the Big East.
Just hard to see how he is THE guy.
Key is the three - if he can get 9-10 points a game with hitting a couple threes a game at a solid or better %, that will space things enough to help the forwards get to work and X to be more efficient with his shooting.
They are turning two three year starters who are real good talents and one of the best freshman in the Big East.
Just hard to see how he is THE guy.
I think he'll be real streaky. He'll win
They should all be in the low double digits
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If Horton is the player Capel says he is - then yes a 1st team All-ACC level player will and should displace JC & Toney this season.
I bet we see an efficient 13-14ppg from Horton.
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IMHO, the whole team will play a faster pace and team scoring will be up 5-10 ppg. Last season average was bout 65 ppg. Hoping/expecting average scoring to be in the 70-75 ppg range. How that gets distributed is a good question.
If Horton only takes the same number of shots (both 2s and 3s)-- ~10 per game--that McGowens did last season and he shoots between 35% and 38% (vs McGowens 31.1%) on the same # of 3s that McGowens took--
Then, Horton would score 0.5 to 1.0 more points per game than McGowen's 11.5 ppg. That would put him at 12-12.5 ppg comparable to Champagnie's12.7 ppg.
If Horton only takes the same number of shots (both 2s and 3s)-- ~10 per game--that McGowens did last season and he shoots between 35% and 38% (vs McGowens 31.1%) on the same # of 3s that McGowens took--
Then, Horton would score 0.5 to 1.0 more points per game than McGowen's 11.5 ppg. That would put him at 12-12.5 ppg comparable to Champagnie's12.7 ppg.
What makes you think they will play at a faster pace? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing— just wondering.
What’s interesting is that I don’t even know at all exactly the kind of pace Capel wants. It just seems to be slow because we can’t get into things faster.
We don’t rebound well on the defensive end. Guards have to get low in the paint to team rebound a lot, which inhibits pace too. So does playing against zones without outside shooting or a competent high post threat.
Some or perhaps many people may not know this, but it has officially been 10 years since a Pitt team had 4 players over 10+ points per game for a season. It was the 2010 team that last did it with Gibbs leading the charge scoring. Ironically about that team, there was only 1 player for the entire season that made over 25 three balls that year, Gibbs. That team was no juggernaut on offense by any means, they barely were Top 50 Nationally per the offensive efficiency rankings, but they had good depth players and Gary Mcghee as a dominant interior defender and were a pretty stout defensive team that earned a 3 seed. There are "some" similarities between that team and this one next year.
I don't think any player next year needs to be "THE" guy as you phrased it on offense. On paper there is a pretty high probability we are going to have 4 players over 10+ points per game even though it hasn't happened in 10 years. We should have a really good starting 5 regardless of what happens at center and the questions we have there. The scoring, spacing, efficiency, everything should be improved and we will have a legit balanced scoring starting 5.
The issue, which I have talked about before, is what we get from our center and depth players and what they contribute. Our depth failed us this year. For example, had Toney played against Wake Forest on our home floor, we would have won that game at home for 7 conference wins. Injuries are part of the game, but we were rail thin as it was. Obviously Murphy getting the "concussion" officially finished our season as he was no where near the player he was before it.
The contributions from our new players and returning players like Coulibaly and Drumgoole is going to determine really how good we are. With more depth, we can be far more aggressive on defense with press and traps and not worry about burning players out as muchor being concerned with foul trouble as much. We have far more options, they are unproven however.
I have significant concerns with our team rebounding. But that can be offset by having less turnovers on offense and forcing more turnovers on defense, 2 areas I see us improving.
A good chunk of my optimism is also riding with Hugley and Odukale among others. These players are "proven" to be pass first players that rack up assists sharing the ball and both can really pass. Having those 2 blended in with 4 players that have the ability to score 10+ points per game should do wonders for our offense.
This team needs players willing to pass and guys that can pass well. We are getting it with these 2 players and Jeff Capel has had some very strong words about both of them contributing immediately from game 1.
It must be stated as well that Odukale is "not" a normal freshmen because of his athletic attributes, length, or age. He is turning 21 years old next winter as a freshmen. That simply is not normal.
Yes. I think this has a lot to do with it. Also, IMHO, the past 2 seasons pace was done to keep us close in games as long as possible vs teams with more talent and depth. IMHO, as we gradually get more out of our new bigs defensive rebounding wise, as you suggest, we will be able to get out on the break more frequently.
IMO, Capel, being from Coach K’s coaching tree, will want to push things like Duke does when It gets to the point where he has the talent to do so. I see this year’s team gradually morphing in that direction as the freshman bigs acclimate and mature and we get better at eliminating opponent’s second chance opportunities while at the same time not needing all 5 guys to crash the defensive boards. IMHO, the team should look very different late season vs early season, IMHO.
This is just speculation on my part, however.
We need much better defensive rebounding to have any chances to fast break to increase our pace. We tried last year with some success by trapping but we can't do that as much because we need X to play more minutes and be better on the offensive end. Also, our offense has to have much more movement, cutting, and quick passing and less dribbling and high screens that don't result in better scoring opportunities. That's a lot to figure out to improve pace but most is coaching and hopefully those are the focus areas.
And to respond to Vadar who will be replying shortly to me about our new younger guys size and athletic ability and how that will improve our rebounding, there is an art, technique, skill and awareness to defensive rebounding that must be taught and learned especially at the ACC level.
There's also a want to and that one thing that's not teachable and that's heart. When you don't have those 2 things all those other things have to be taught even more. I think we will be better im that area.
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I don't know either, but we do have some evidence based on what his teams have done in the past.
Capel has been a head coach now for 11 seasons, 4 at VCU, 5 at Oklahoma and 2 at Pitt. His teams have been in the top 100 in adjusted tempo exactly once, his first season at VCU when they were 78 (and which was actually slower than what VCU had been the season before he got there). His teams have been in the 100s twice, 191 his third year at VCU and 109 his third year at Oklahoma. His teams have been in the 200s 7 times, and last season we were at 308.
The average of his 11 seasons is 216. Certainly in an ideal world he would want to play faster than we did last season, and maybe even faster than the season before when we were at 206. But based on his career to date it seems unlikely that he actually wants his teams to play fast, because they have basically never done so.
Duke doesn't normally play as fast as people seem to think that they do. Look at their last 11 seasons (to compare that to Capel's 11 seasons). The last two years they were at 34 and 20, so pretty fast. In the other nine years they 40 in 2011 and 93 in 2018, and in the other seven seasons they were in the 100s six times and were at 229 in 2010 when they won the championship. There average is 114. Taking out the last two years and it's 133.
North Carolina is the ACC team that likes to play the fastest. Duke is generally no where close to them in tempo.
My thinking was not about playing at an extremely fast pace. My intended meaning was about a faster pace than last year’s #308 for certain but not a full on “run and gun” offense. I am just expecting a team that will be playing a significantly faster pace than last year because of more ability off improved defensive rebounding to attack before defenses are set up half court. As noted I expect that change to be gradual over the course of the season.
IMHO, a coach plays whatever way most effectively uses his roster resources. Last year that dictated very slow; but, this year’s roster looks to be one (once freshmen develop) to be more suited to a faster pace.
McGowens Leaving. Big John has Heart. I know for a fact that Horton has heart. There are three reasons right there that grit will improve.
Sure. I get it. It also seems like a lot of baseless wishing to me. Would anyone have say Trey didn't have heart coming out of HS?
You can't compare McGowens' rep coming out of High School to Hugley's. John is already a legendary hard working team first guy. Not knocking Trey - but he's never been known for similar things rep-wise.
And Horton is basically Mark_Marty family at this point. He's probably not completely objective on the subject, while being better informed than any other Lair poster on the Horton topic.
I'm basing it on if you have that mentality to want to rebound like Champ had last yr and. Toney the yr before. If you got that want too that Heart and Drive to do it you don't have to be taught that if you already have it. Some people just don't want to do those things it's not the sexy thing to go rebound for some kids but some kids love to do it. So I hoping Big John, Max and I heard Collier say that's what he wants to bring to the team along with defense. Now some guys like TB don't box out and you see that he doesn't fight with heart to be good at it.
I can't speak to Mark_Marty's links to Horton, but it just feels like a lot of wishing and hoping.
At this point isn't it all we have? None of us know what's really going to happen so those that are positive are wishing and hoping everything turns out the way people had talked about this kid.
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I don't believe Capel would exaggerate and build up a kid to fail and take the heat. Horton is at least close to as good as Coach says he is, and that means good enough to make one of the All-ACC teams.
He’s at least that good? Wow. He wasn’t all CAA in his only year of play... he must’ve gotten a lot better from his going against a guy who Pantherlair says doesn’t work hard and isn’t good in Trey every day. Interesting stuff indeed.
correct. Because the coach who recruited him said he was good in practice against a kid everyone is dumping on, he’s all ACC...
Not being able to get into things faster is a sign of not being organized. Sure we need to rebound better to get out on the break more...but there are many other options or opportunities we don’t take advantage of.
We need to make the secondary break a priority. I’m sure you know what it is but for those who don’t...in simple terms you take advantage of a D that is not set or scrambling even if everyone is back. It does not take much talent to get easy buckets off the secondary break if you run hard and move the ball quickly.
Although North Carolina sucked this year they have made a living over the years running the secondary break to perfection. Half the time it is their half court O. There are teams with not near the talent as NC who also do an excellent job getting easy buckets by catching a team out of position getting back on D.
Some teams...North Carolina is one of them assign numbers so there is no confusion. If the 2 is a shooter he will run to the corner. The 4 & 5 could trail with one going ball side to look for the easy catch down the lane etc. If nothing is there then you go into some type of motion or a set play.
My daughter, a D1 level athlete herself, knows him. They are good friends. He has heart. She knows not how he will shoot, however. Neither do I.
She can attest to his values and make up as a human. End of story.
Ignore was invented for trolls like you. Goodbye.
Let's all give the kid a chance. I hope he and Horton scrap for time all year. If we can get 14 points a game from the 2g, we'll be much improved. Take some pressure off X.
Good enough for me. Seemed like a good guy in his interview with him that I saw. I’ve heard extremely positive things about John Hugleys personality: “Pitt fans will love him” I was told. And Jeffress seemed like a mature young man in his interview as well.
Having said this, I’d rather was avoid adding to the narrative that other players, current or departed didn’t have heart. All of our payers played hard. Things just weren’t working.
That’s outstanding. And I hope you’re right and he’s a great representative of Pitt. I just find myself agreeing @DT_PITT when it comes to making claims about a player’s heart.
Absolutely agree as well. Teams' 14-19 and 16-17 records last two seasons were not due to lack of effort or desire by any of the players. Very simply, it was the result of the relative lack of ACC-level talent and depth compared to the league as a whole.
I'm just happy we didn't still have Stallings at the helm the past two years or, IMHO, progress at turning things around from that 8-24 bottom would likely have been close to nonexistent and we would have remained almost 2-years behind the point where we are today.
I'm just happy we didn't still have Stallings at the helm the past two years or, IMHO, progress at turning things around from that 8-24 bottom would likely have been close to nonexistent and we would have remained almost 2-years behind the point where we are today.
This is where I’d land as well. Would anyone have questioned McGowens’ heart after freshmen year? Things didn’t work out for him here but kid was a top 100 player who committed to Pitt in a time when Pitt needed someone like him to commit and played (what seemed to be) hard for Pitt for two years. I’d be hesitant to piss and dance on his grave.
All of that said, nice to hear Horton is a good kid and a hard worker. I hope he’s a better fit and is spectacular. I just think his legend has grown to the point where his play on the floor isn’t going to possibly match the hype. And if he does come in and average 8-12 a game, isn’t All ACC etc he could still be a very valuable piece for us this year and beyond. I’d just like to see the kid play before we are guaranteeing All ACC, 40 percent shooting etc etc.
I’m not sure why anyone outside the inner circle would ever question anyone else’s heart .
In Trey’s case , my guess is that he tried too hard and became frustrated with his performance .
A change of scenery was 100% necessary for the mental side of his the game and the year off gives him the time to work on his game . Plus with Horton becoming eligible his PT was going to take a big hit .
In Trey’s case , my guess is that he tried too hard and became frustrated with his performance .
A change of scenery was 100% necessary for the mental side of his the game and the year off gives him the time to work on his game . Plus with Horton becoming eligible his PT was going to take a big hit .
I've seen U. of Delaware bball in person a number of times over the
years. I live in PA but near Newark, De (home of U of DE). Their
basketball is never anywhere near an ACC level. It's not even
Atlantic 10 level.That doesn't mean Horton won't do well at Pitt. I
haven't seen him play, but as many on here have posted, he's about
to face a whole different level in the ACC.
My sense is McGowens is a better athlete and a real force offensively
in one on one play. I felt his floor play was average for a Div1 off guard,
and a better defensive player than given credit. What he couldn't do
was play against a zone, and consistently hit from the outside.
If Horton can shoot consistently from the outside, he will IMO be a
better fit for Capel's offense than McGowens. He probably can
duplicate McGowen's floor play, and hopefully won't hurt us on
the D end (as did Murphy). McGowen's best attribute was getting to
the hoop on drives and penetration. However as we all know, teams
packed the lane and basically took him out of his game. Horton
appears to be able to hit off the dribble, and as a stand still shooter.
I feel he's going to be a strong addition to our lineup. I also tend to
believe Capel's analysis of him, since Capel is a straightshooter and
not a coach who exaggerates.
years. I live in PA but near Newark, De (home of U of DE). Their
basketball is never anywhere near an ACC level. It's not even
Atlantic 10 level.That doesn't mean Horton won't do well at Pitt. I
haven't seen him play, but as many on here have posted, he's about
to face a whole different level in the ACC.
My sense is McGowens is a better athlete and a real force offensively
in one on one play. I felt his floor play was average for a Div1 off guard,
and a better defensive player than given credit. What he couldn't do
was play against a zone, and consistently hit from the outside.
If Horton can shoot consistently from the outside, he will IMO be a
better fit for Capel's offense than McGowens. He probably can
duplicate McGowen's floor play, and hopefully won't hurt us on
the D end (as did Murphy). McGowen's best attribute was getting to
the hoop on drives and penetration. However as we all know, teams
packed the lane and basically took him out of his game. Horton
appears to be able to hit off the dribble, and as a stand still shooter.
I feel he's going to be a strong addition to our lineup. I also tend to
believe Capel's analysis of him, since Capel is a straightshooter and
not a coach who exaggerates.
Aww c'mon, man. That post wasn't even close to trolling.
Exactly. I think there's a bit of post-transfer revisionism going on with Trey. My guess is that if the roles were reversed and Trey stayed but Toney transferred, posters would be finding ways to talk about how Toney had no heart, etc. etc.
I hope Horton is a world beater. I hope Hugley's the best big we've had since Blair. I just don't think we can really measure a player's heart or drive. Just seems like a type of wishful thinking that, for me, doesn't really work.
