What is your expectation for this program?
- Thread starter Sean Miller Fan
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Is the question what is most probable of a program like ours?
That's how I voted, which is a bubble program.
We really have no history- other than the Dixon years- for higher standards. It's a bonus when we are better than a bubble program, and was a great 10 year run!
That's how I voted, which is a bubble program.
We really have no history- other than the Dixon years- for higher standards. It's a bonus when we are better than a bubble program, and was a great 10 year run!
I am trying to figure out when "the good ole days" were. We pretty much sucked in the good ole days.
You may be right about what is most probable but that wasn't the question. Its what is YOUR expectation? What "type" of program is good enough for YOU? No right or wrong obviously. I voted that I expect this team to be an upper tier ACC team, not Duke or UNC but we WERE UVa, I expect that we get there again. For me, the bubble isnt good enough. I know it could be worse but unless we can be Virginia or Pitt 2002-11, I would try to figure out a way to make that happen again if it were up to me whatever that entails (coaching changes, better budgets, whatever).
Really, we are back to being Paul Evans Pitt and for me, that's not good enough.
We don't really have a vote in what's acceptable or not.
You can vote with your wallet (which you have) in not finding value in season tickets. And you can vote by stopping your donations.
You can send a letter to the AD and Chancellor voicing your displeasure..
but unless you're in that small group of booster who are putting 6+ figure checks together to make plans actionable...
It's all just sound and fury signifying nothing.
We still haven't seen enough from Virginia ...we had a ten year run similar to theirs. They are on year 3 . And lose two key pieces this year.
You said what we would be satisfied with. Then you voted on the higher end of what the reasonable spectrum would be. If I go to a restaurant and order a burger, fries and beer, I have an expectation ranging around what's probable. What I would be "satisfied" with wouldn't be the best burger I ever had. And I wouldn't order a burger and be dissatisfied it wasn't a prime rib steak.
It's really a hard question anyway. I think, in both FB and BB, we have the ability to have peaks, but also high ability to have valleys. We do not get the fan support, funding and steady stream of 5 star talent to **consistently** be anywhere but be between Bubble and Fairly Consistent categories. If there was another group between that, I'd pick it. I don't think we will always be a bubble team, but we will be from time to time. And we will likely sometimes have good teams too. In both sports. Like I said in another recent thread, we are a school that has to have lots of things go right to stay at the top. No different than most schools around our range.
He orders hamburger. Most probably will get a hamburger. But expects steak.
This no history thing is a bit of a copout. We have had a pretty good history over the last 14 years. NC State being relevant in 1983 has no bearing on today, as we well know in football. I just thing some of you cling to this. You build your history. So you didn't start in 1950 with a guy named Iba. Speaking if, Okie State had Hank Iba. They had Eddie Sutton. That is not helping them. UCLA has the history of all histories, and they aren't exactly setting the world on fire. Same with Indiana.
You make your own. Miami has no history, worse than what we have. But they got a good coach and they are doing good things. UVa had the Sampson era, but other than that, not close to being a blueblood. They have a great coach. Same with Iowa State, and now they are just continuing what Hoiberg built.
I voted as most did. No, we aren't Carolina, Duke, Kansas, Louisville or Kentucky. But we have no excuses to not be anyone else. There is only ONE thing that hurts this program. And it sure isn't history. It isn't donations. The one thing that is a detriment to the program is the lack of local talent.
Because this program has a whole lot of positives that most programs don't have, and some of those the football program doesn't even enjoy. The "history" thing is a poor excuse.
I thought this program was going to be able to maintain a level where they would make the tournament most years and build a team for a deep run every 3-4 years. This was obviously an inaccurate expectation.
Frankly, I don't know what to expect from this program anymore. Watching Dixon and this program right now is starting to remind me of how Al Skinner and Boston College gradually fell apart. I hope that's not the case.
Frankly, I don't know what to expect from this program anymore. Watching Dixon and this program right now is starting to remind me of how Al Skinner and Boston College gradually fell apart. I hope that's not the case.
Like I said..we had no history to expect more UNTIL THE DIXON YEARS. We've returned to the mean.
Miami likely won't have their coach for a 10 year run as their coach likely will be retired by there. And you prove my point by making those analogies... all quality programs, who fell once their coach left.
Capiche?
I think it's what we all hoped.
Another cycle of players, maybe we right the ship.
If not... it's over for Dixon.
Souf and Kiwi are skewering SMF (they seem to think this is some sort of sport LOL) but if you read his poll, I think the natural and honestly realistic expectations, yes high side, but not 'pie in the sky' high side is "Fairly consistent upper-tier ACC program, double byes, 3-6 seed NCAA tourney". He didn't say Sweet 16, top 10 level program every year. Most people in the poll obviously agree.
If you think about it, from 2002 to 2011, we were better than this level. Not saying that should be the gold standard, but I am saying that being a consistent 3 to 6 seed (top 25 program essentially) is not an over the top expectation. That doesn't mean every year, 25 years in a row of top 25, but 8 out of 10, sure. Why not? Xavier can do this.
If you think about it, from 2002 to 2011, we were better than this level. Not saying that should be the gold standard, but I am saying that being a consistent 3 to 6 seed (top 25 program essentially) is not an over the top expectation. That doesn't mean every year, 25 years in a row of top 25, but 8 out of 10, sure. Why not? Xavier can do this.
Not really skewering..
only dealing with the reality to OUR EXPECTATIONS are completely MEANINGLESS.
All but the bluest of bloods...cycle up and down. Hell Cuse has been struggling as bad as us in recent years on average....georgetown is not good at all... it's the nature of the beast.
And if you take the aggregate of our current coach's time here, that's exactly what we've had.
10 out of 12 years in the dance (soon to be hopefully 11 out of 13). Averaging about a 4 or 5 seed over that time. Once in a while a #1 seed and a real chance to make a run ('09).
We have the program that the majority of the voters in this poll say they want.
Our Jamie years have been:
3, 9, 5, 3, 4, 1, 3, 1, out, 8, 9, out
About what the poll is asking for.
That's the other problem. Where is this cycle of players going to come from? The recruiting over the last 5-6 years has turned out dreadful with the exception of a few players. I have no idea who Pitt is looking at in 2017 and 2018 that they have a remote chance at. I sure as hell hope the graduate transfer experiment is over though. I don't even care about star ratings anymore. Just don't put a bunch of idiots out on the court.
We'll have to wait and see...
it's fairly clear we won't know the compete level of the next cycle of players for a couple years...
we were all pretty optimistic about Young, Artis, and Jeter as the core.
But that core is rotten.
I'm kind of divided when you use the word "satisfied". I am not the kind of fan that is ever truly "satisfied", because reality says that your team will lose, and is more likely to end their season with a loss than with a win, especially if the sport has a post-season. And most major sports do (have a post-season), so the exception might be the team that wins its last game, but was not good enough to qualify for any playoffs, tournament, etc
As for Pitt, (and my history goes back to 1970) I have always wanted us to be more relevant as a major college sports program, but realize that we are not the kind of program that can build a "dynasty". It's been 40 years since we went undefeated in Football and won a Natl Championship, but the rules and situations were different then. As an independent, we encountered a "perfect storm" that year, and remained very relevant for almost a decade. We probably should have won at least one, maybe two more Natl Championships but fell short. In basketball, we had three teams during the Howland/Dixon era that probably should have gone to the Elite Eight (one did), and maybe two that should have gone to the Final Four (none did).
Having been reasonably close, I know that many Pitt fans are still looking for some kind of "satisfaction". And while I don't think it unreasonable for Pitt to regain its presence as a Top Tier program (now, in the ACC as we were before in the BE), my "satisfaction" probably won't be met (for basketball) unless we get to a FF. If Pitt could ever be one of the last 4 college BB teams standing, it would provide satisfaction for me, anyway, for quite awhile.
My two cents . . .
As for Pitt, (and my history goes back to 1970) I have always wanted us to be more relevant as a major college sports program, but realize that we are not the kind of program that can build a "dynasty". It's been 40 years since we went undefeated in Football and won a Natl Championship, but the rules and situations were different then. As an independent, we encountered a "perfect storm" that year, and remained very relevant for almost a decade. We probably should have won at least one, maybe two more Natl Championships but fell short. In basketball, we had three teams during the Howland/Dixon era that probably should have gone to the Elite Eight (one did), and maybe two that should have gone to the Final Four (none did).
Having been reasonably close, I know that many Pitt fans are still looking for some kind of "satisfaction". And while I don't think it unreasonable for Pitt to regain its presence as a Top Tier program (now, in the ACC as we were before in the BE), my "satisfaction" probably won't be met (for basketball) unless we get to a FF. If Pitt could ever be one of the last 4 college BB teams standing, it would provide satisfaction for me, anyway, for quite awhile.
My two cents . . .
Xavier hired Thad Motta, Sean Miller,
Yeah but it is a message board, a discussion board. It is just that. It would be a pretty empty and boring place if we discussed things about the program that we actually can control. And you are right about cycles. Absolutely. Even UNC under the Doherty era had their share of pain. It is interesting to see over these next two years if we rebound and this is a lull, or if this is the new reality (or as you would put it , regression to the mean). But still....again it is just fodder for fun discussion, it is harmless.
If you're asking what I would like to see, it would be a consistent NCAA tourney team that at least challenges for the upper end of the ACC. If you're asking me what I think will actually happen, I see us as a marginal bubble team, trending downward. It's not pretty, but the facts on the ground seem to indicate a gradual decay.
Cruzer
I think something we all have missed, well not all of us, but we get some consumed by "NBA" and "athleticism" but the typical Pitt player under Ben and then Jamie had something more than toughness. They had a high BB IQ. I look at Ryan Luther and see this. I know, "high BB IQ" in many cases is a euphemism for "white" basketball player, but Bandin, JB, Page, Chevy, Levance, Sam Young, Wanamaker, Blair, etc....all seemed to have this. Whereas that is missing.
What makes it a shame is Artis and Young not only can score, but they are great passers. Case in point Young's pass to Meia for a dunk when Young was doubled. But for whatever reason, they lose this vision, this IQ in big moments. We don't need just better players, we need smarter players.
Josh Newkirk may have been able to move 120mph on the court, but his decision skills were more like 25mph. Artis seems to forget that he has to guard his man. Young is always reaching when someone drives into the paint invariably leaving his man open for a layup. Ball You Man. They seem not to be able to grasp this.
We need smarter players. JRob is somewhat smart, but he sometimes is too cautious.
I voted for the top choice. I want a title, not 1 and done's in the tourney every year(or should I say now, every 3rd year).
You thought that was skewering? Sheesh. You're skewered up.
There were about 5 people who said it was confusing, not just us. Even porcine was confused.Lol. Pitt has been one and done in the tourney exactly twice. Two years ago they won a game.
Are you intentionally doing this?
Everybody wants a title... the question was about expectations.
And like the other guy said... we've only been one and done in 2005 and 2013. In every other year that we made it, we won at least one game.
This is right about where I'm at. Dixon is gonna get a chance to turn it around be use of the contract but if we couldn't capitalize on the success we had in the BE and the 2 #1 seeds I'm not terribly optimistic. Hopefully there's something to the idea that Dixon is getting back to recruiting the type of guys that made Pitt successful. You never know what true freshman bring but let's hope Kithcart and Manigault are a start back to those tough gritty teams that had as much heart as talent.
You are right about this team's low bball IQ but isn't a lot of that on Jamie? He's getting paid a lot of money to develop these players, yet we continue to see players dribble into 4 guys, then turn it over. If the players refuse to listen or are not coachable, they need to go but we have such little talent behind them that that is not an option.
Everything comes back to the HC and if you are waiting for this program to identify "tough" players or high IQ players watching the AAU circuit, you are going to be disappointed. Those intangibles are nearly impossible to identify.
It goes without saying the failings of this team are on Dixon .
It's always the head coach with total accountability .
It's obvious and known...
Which is why it doesn't have to be constantly refrained In each post.
It's always the head coach with total accountability .
It's obvious and known...
Which is why it doesn't have to be constantly refrained In each post.
Moe, I to, Have a history with Pitt that dates back to the early 70's. As for what you have written, I could not have said it any better. I agree totally, but would add one thing.
It is really hard to have expectations when those responsible for getting behind it are not doing their part. My expectations for both football and basketball will be ratcheting up now that we have a chancellor and AD who are committed to giving our coaches the resources they need to be competitive at a high level.
Furthermore, I believe we have two great head coaches leading our major sports teams. I love the Duzz and what he brings in football, in a few short years I feel certain that we will be playing for an ACC title.
As for basketball, Jamie knows the formula that put this team on the map. He strayed a bit, and the program has payed a price. Don't give up on him! He will get back very soon to what had this program humming. I believe he will have us an upper tier ACC team that most of us want,we just need to trust him and stay the course. A final four team would also be the ultimate satisfaction for me, we do not have to win it!
I don't quite understand why people still cling to this idea of "capitalizing" on prime years. After Nova beat us in 2009, they failed harder than Pitt has. After WVU made a F4, the failed harder than Pitt has. Both of those programs, under the same coaches, have turned it around already. Clearly, the idea that making a Final Four destines your program for sustained greatness and recruiting infallibility is false.
Dixon has to find the formula to return to success, as Wright and Huggins did, or else he'll be out of a job soon.
sat·is·fac·to·ry
adjective: satisfactory
fulfilling expectations or needs; acceptable, though not outstanding or perfect.
I expect Pitt to have years of 3-6 seeds. I expect Pitt to have years of 1 seeds. I accept that Pitt will have bubble years. I accept that Pitt will have NIT years.
"Top 10 program, 1-4 seeds consistently, fighting for ACC championships, basically the good ole days'
If we can't be this anymore, what good was it leaving the Big East? Sure, I know, we get a lot of MONEY now from the ACC, compared to what we got in the Big East. But as a fan, watching winning seasons and league championships was way more fun, I mean we don't go down and stand in front of PNC Bank and cheer when our AD goes down to deposit the ACC Money.
If we can't be this anymore, what good was it leaving the Big East? Sure, I know, we get a lot of MONEY now from the ACC, compared to what we got in the Big East. But as a fan, watching winning seasons and league championships was way more fun, I mean we don't go down and stand in front of PNC Bank and cheer when our AD goes down to deposit the ACC Money.
Then don't participate, Jesus Christ are you obnoxious. Do you get paid for posts on this site?
This was the point of my reply. To ask what is satisfactory, then to pick something which is above satisfactory, makes no sense. He should have worded it as what level would exceed your expectations or something like that. Anyone picking the highest choice, based on the wording of the question, has no idea what the question meant.
This is especially true because of recruiting cycles. Typically, the upcoming class is locked up prior to the current March Madness. So even if you win the NC, it isn't likely to improve the current incoming class much. I think high school prospects are looking at schools with staying power. There have been a number of schools that get hot awhile, then fade back again. If you are a top recruit, you still are going to pick a high level hoops school than a school that makes the Final Four once a decade, once every two decades or never.
The other thing I don't understand along those lines, is many people say we haven't accomplished anything because we flame out in March every time, but we should be improving our recruiting based on our success. I fail to follow that line of thinking.
Man, you and Souf love to troll.
I think everybody realized what I was trying to say. I even clarified the OP with the question of what you would be satisfied with.
If I go into McDonald's, my expectation is the food will be edible. If it is, I am satisfied. If I go to LeMont, my expectation is it should be one of the best dinners I'll have all year. If its not, I'm not satisfied. How much simpler can I make it?
I expect Pitt to be a consistent Top 25 program, in that 3-6 seed range. Sometimes a bit higher is great, sometimes a bit lower is ok.
But 5 years in a row of bubble or worse does not me my expectations or satisfy what I want to see this team do.
But I know, I dont buy season tickets so that should be a prerequisite for any post on a free message board.
Now, lets have another 100 posts about the definitions of expectation, satisfaction, acceptance, etc. Lets analyze this thing like crazy. Maybe let's make a whole new thread since this one doesn't meet you and Souf's expectations.
Why is my post a troll? Talk about intolerant. There were a bunch of other posters who basically said the same thing, who you conveniently ignore. How can you write "everyone understood" when so many posted they didn't quite get what you were asking. You just didn't communicate your point well, and you're mad people asked about it. I never said you couldn't post. To suggest I did is childish on your part. I just pointed out how you circumvent giving Pitt money, then complain the teams aren't good enough. That's it. There is a bit of dissonance in that, you must admit.
I would rather be Pitt right now than Syracuse, Louisville or North Carolina all on or on the verge of being on sanctions.
I expect a NCAA appearance three out of every four years and hope to have a nice run once in a while. Like some of the other posters, I have been to most every home game since the 1970-71 season. I enjoy the sport, it is somehow reaffirming to see young men mature and become a credit to the University from which I graduated .
Sure I want Pitt's teams to win. A late season collapse like last year was hard to take, but even last year's target of this Board's venom, Cam Wright, overcame both injury and the death of a parent. He was the ACC scholar of the year and developed (I think) to the best of his abilities. What more do you want from a kid?
If you wanted him to be Stephen Curry, or now James Robinson to be Chris Paul, you are missing the point. On senior day, I will stand and cheer for James, he has earned it.
I expect a NCAA appearance three out of every four years and hope to have a nice run once in a while. Like some of the other posters, I have been to most every home game since the 1970-71 season. I enjoy the sport, it is somehow reaffirming to see young men mature and become a credit to the University from which I graduated .
Sure I want Pitt's teams to win. A late season collapse like last year was hard to take, but even last year's target of this Board's venom, Cam Wright, overcame both injury and the death of a parent. He was the ACC scholar of the year and developed (I think) to the best of his abilities. What more do you want from a kid?
If you wanted him to be Stephen Curry, or now James Robinson to be Chris Paul, you are missing the point. On senior day, I will stand and cheer for James, he has earned it.
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