Why all the angst

[pittbb80]

I really dont get all the angst about a loss against a very strong Louisville team. Look at just about every position incudng the bench and they have superior players. When you have superior players who play an agressive style its going to be almost impossible to win games like last night

Looking at the bigger picture, this game and this season was lost on the recriting trail The current roster is just not as talented as many Pitt fans believe. The three "leaders" are flawed players. Im not sure why anyone would expect Artis, Young, and JROB to carry a team for long stretches of games. Sure against less talente teams they can have the occaisional big game. But expecting guys who have significant flaws in their games to beat top 25 teams is unreasonable.

Artis is not a great athlete and is not going to outleap anyone or out quick them. His handle is questionable which results in sloppy turnovers. He also doesnt have the natural basketball IQ. Against teams that dont pressure him, he'll do fine. Against better teams who pressure him, hes a turn over machine and it affects his shot as well. Earliier in the year the offense was desinged with Artis being the Point forward. It worked well agasint lesser teams. Its been a problem against team that can defend.

Mike Young is a guy whose really not a power forward in the sense that hes a natural rebounder with an inside game and inside defender nor does he have the skills of a wing. His handle is awful and his shot from the outside is almost as bad. Yet MIke thinks hes more of a wing and plays selfishly at times. The three he took yesterday was ridicuolous. When he tries to take his man off the dribble he often gets into trouble and turns the ball over. Rarely does he dish it back outside. Like Artis, MY struggles against teams that have strong defenders inside as he simply doesnt have the inside game to compete at a high level.

NEither MY or JA have a high compete level............what PItt fans call grit..........both seem to let their struggles on offense affect their overall game. Both are poor defenders. When your two best player have flaws and lack grit.............you are in trouble.

JROBS flaws have been discussed at length so no use beating that horse to death. However to his credit, he has shown the grit youd like to see and is a decent defender.

Given the weaknesses of the top three players, I really dont get why fans are uspet or surprised at the results weve witnessed ths year.

The only thing that will fix this team short of a complete roster change is a big inside who can defend and rebound and a guard who can create consistently and score and take pressure off of JA and MY. Hopefully that describes kithcart and Maginault............otherwise, next year will be more of the same.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Mostly because we blew an 8 point lead with 8 to go. Everybody would agree Louisville is much better, even though they are missing THREE players, but it was a game we just had to finish. That and the continuation of losing every single home game to good teams.

If we dont beat Duke and Syr doesn't make the NCAAT, this will be the first time in program history that we dont beat an NCAAT team at The Pete.

 

[UPitt '89]

Because we had the game won.

It was there for the taking.

And your premise is faulty in another way. Louisville had a front line decimated by injuries. They were missing 3 players from their front line rotation. Two former walkons played the final 5 minutes of the first half and combined for 20 points in the game.

Louisville was not "better at every position " last night.

 

[Harve74]

Louisville was not "better at every position " last night.

The real problem is they probably were. Or at least smarter.

 

[Joe Magarac]

I really dont get all the angst about a loss against a very strong Louisville team. Look at just about every position incudng the bench and they have superior players. When you have superior players who play an agressive style its going to be almost impossible to win games like last night

Looking at the bigger picture, this game and this season was lost on the recriting trail The current roster is just not as talented as many Pitt fans believe. The three "leaders" are flawed players. Im not sure why anyone would expect Artis, Young, and JROB to carry a team for long stretches of games. Sure against less talente teams they can have the occaisional big game. But expecting guys who have significant flaws in their games to beat top 25 teams is unreasonable.

Artis is not a great athlete and is not going to outleap anyone or out quick them. His handle is questionable which results in sloppy turnovers. He also doesnt have the natural basketball IQ. Against teams that dont pressure him, he'll do fine. Against better teams who pressure him, hes a turn over machine and it affects his shot as well. Earliier in the year the offense was desinged with Artis being the Point forward. It worked well agasint lesser teams. Its been a problem against team that can defend.

Mike Young is a guy whose really not a power forward in the sense that hes a natural rebounder with an inside game and inside defender nor does he have the skills of a wing. His handle is awful and his shot from the outside is almost as bad. Yet MIke thinks hes more of a wing and plays selfishly at times. The three he took yesterday was ridicuolous. When he tries to take his man off the dribble he often gets into trouble and turns the ball over. Rarely does he dish it back outside. Like Artis, MY struggles against teams that have strong defenders inside as he simply doesnt have the inside game to compete at a high level.

NEither MY or JA have a high compete level............what PItt fans call grit..........both seem to let their struggles on offense affect their overall game. Both are poor defenders. When your two best player have flaws and lack grit.............you are in trouble.

JROBS flaws have been discussed at length so no use beating that horse to death. However to his credit, he has shown the grit youd like to see and is a decent defender.

Given the weaknesses of the top three players, I really dont get why fans are uspet or surprised at the results weve witnessed ths year.

The only thing that will fix this team short of a complete roster change is a big inside who can defend and rebound and a guard who can create consistently and score and take pressure off of JA and MY. Hopefully that describes kithcart and Maginault............otherwise, next year will be more of the same.

How sad that this type of explanation is warranted.
As long as Pitt continues to not recruit players that can score in the clutch we as fans will be witness to games such as last night, wishing and hoping.
How much longer will nostalgia carry the upbeat atmosphere at the Pete?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Louisville was not "better at every position " last night.

Snyder better than Robinson

Lewis/Adel better than Jones

Lee better than Artis

Johnson and Young are fairly equal but Johnson doesnt have to do anything on that team

Onuaku better than our 5s

 

[Delpanther]

I dare say every Pitt team during the Dixon era has been "flawed" in some way but during the regular season they were able to overcome the flaws with smart, tough play and sharp execution. We're used to watching flawed players or players with less talent than the top dogs, we're less used to watching poor execution and,selfish, dumb and lackadaisical play. Normally coaching has been able to compensate for flawed players under Dixon but not with this team. If you don't elevate the play of flawed players through sharp execution as a team, you lose and that's what we have seen with this team against the better competiton. They are both flawed individually in terms of talent but also flawed in terms of team play.

 

[Jeffburgh]

I really dont get all the angst about a loss against a very strong Louisville team. Look at just about every position incudng the bench and they have superior players. When you have superior players who play an agressive style its going to be almost impossible to win games like last night

Looking at the bigger picture, this game and this season was lost on the recriting trail The current roster is just not as talented as many Pitt fans believe. The three "leaders" are flawed players. Im not sure why anyone would expect Artis, Young, and JROB to carry a team for long stretches of games. Sure against less talente teams they can have the occaisional big game. But expecting guys who have significant flaws in their games to beat top 25 teams is unreasonable.

Artis is not a great athlete and is not going to outleap anyone or out quick them. His handle is questionable which results in sloppy turnovers. He also doesnt have the natural basketball IQ. Against teams that dont pressure him, he'll do fine. Against better teams who pressure him, hes a turn over machine and it affects his shot as well. Earliier in the year the offense was desinged with Artis being the Point forward. It worked well agasint lesser teams. Its been a problem against team that can defend.

Mike Young is a guy whose really not a power forward in the sense that hes a natural rebounder with an inside game and inside defender nor does he have the skills of a wing. His handle is awful and his shot from the outside is almost as bad. Yet MIke thinks hes more of a wing and plays selfishly at times. The three he took yesterday was ridicuolous. When he tries to take his man off the dribble he often gets into trouble and turns the ball over. Rarely does he dish it back outside. Like Artis, MY struggles against teams that have strong defenders inside as he simply doesnt have the inside game to compete at a high level.

NEither MY or JA have a high compete level............what PItt fans call grit..........both seem to let their struggles on offense affect their overall game. Both are poor defenders. When your two best player have flaws and lack grit.............you are in trouble.

JROBS flaws have been discussed at length so no use beating that horse to death. However to his credit, he has shown the grit youd like to see and is a decent defender.

Given the weaknesses of the top three players, I really dont get why fans are uspet or surprised at the results weve witnessed ths year.

The only thing that will fix this team short of a complete roster change is a big inside who can defend and rebound and a guard who can create consistently and score and take pressure off of JA and MY. Hopefully that describes kithcart and Maginault............otherwise, next year will be more of the same.

Agreed, the verdict has been in on the core players of this team for a LONG time now.

They just do not have the discipline, moxie, toughness, grit, confidence, whatever it is, to make the plays to win games against good teams.

After mucking out two wins and the way, for them, they competed most of last night I was HOPING they were going to finally break through and beat a good team, but they did what they have done an absurd amount of times against good teams (when they are just folding and getting run off the court) - get about an 8 point lead, be in the position to take control of the game, and see that 8 point lead vanish in a heart beat.

I have NEVER seen a team in a position to take control of a game and give up 8 or so points in a fricken instant like this team does.

But, while I had my hopes up, and there is some lingering disappointment, it certainly is not angst ... More of an ongoing acceptance.

 

[Jeffburgh]

I dare say every Pitt team during the Dixon era has been "flawed" in some way but during the regular season they were able to overcome the flaws with smart, tough play and sharp execution. We're used to watching flawed players or players with less talent than the top dogs, we're less used to watching poor execution and,selfish, dumb and lackadaisical play. Normally coaching has been able to compensate for flawed players under Dixon but not with this team. If you don't elevate the play of flawed players through sharp execution as a team, you lose and that's what we have seen with this team against the better competiton. They are both flawed individually in terms of talent but also flawed in terms of team play.

YEP!

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Louisville went from missing everything to making everything and for awhile Pitt was able to stay with them. The team that continued making the shots was going to get the win and unfortunately it wasn't Pitt. I think Pitt not taking advantage of the turnover with less than 3 minutes left and the score tied ( or close) with Luther not being able to handle the pass was really big. In no way am I knocking RL who played an outstanding game and continues to improve by leaps and bounds. The offense gets stagnant at times with everyone standing around waiting for Artis or Young to make plays and this leads to them making bad decisions or JRob having to put up a bad desperation shot. The lack of a shooting guard really stands out in moments like this. There was a possession in the first half that drove me crazy RL just made a 3 and on the next possession Chris Jones ignores a wide open Luther in the same corner and forces the ball inside to a well defended MY who tries to force up a shot and turns the ball over. I also think despite having a few strong moments that playing inside against bigger and stronger players has worn MY down both physically and mentally. He was an excellent ft shooter and now regularly misses and I think he's forcing up way to many shots and it's due to fatigue ( p&m).
Ps : with regards to recruiting if Cam Johnson develops last yrs freshman ( Luther & Johnson ) both of whom were not Pitts first or second choices might just turn out to be a pretty good class.

 

[Swervin27]

i agree, how can you be mad at this loss. I mean, did anyone even expect in their wildest dreams, we'd beat a top 15 team? This was expected. If anything, I am happy we made it close..

 

[noelr]

8 pt lead with 8 minutes is nothing to come back from. The 27-12 run was bad

 

[thebadby2]

Because we had the game won.

It was there for the taking.

And your premise is faulty in another way. Louisville had a front line decimated by injuries. They were missing 3 players from their front line rotation. Two former walkons played the final 5 minutes of the first half and combined for 20 points in the game.

Louisville was not "better at every position " last night.

You never "have the game won" with an 8 point lead and 8 minutes to go. Not......Even......Close. Also, it wasn't Levitch or the other kid who played at the end of the first half (end of the first half--who cares?) that beat us. It was our own offensive failures in the last 2-3 minutes that beat us. JROB gets a critical steal, Luther mishandles the pass at the rim that would have given us a 2 point lead, Levitch makes his 3--a 5 point swing on Luther's bobbled pass--Artis and Robinson both miss open shots. Robinson's was a "missed everything" runner from about 8 feet--it was a 3 point game at that point--Onuaka gets an uncontested dunk, Artis misses another 3 and the game is basically over. In my mind, that blown offensive possession where Artis missed an open 3 and Robinson badly missed his shot was the ballgame. It was a 3 point Ville lead and still anybody's game with 1:30 left until that happened.

Robinson played a strong game until the last 2 minutes, when he folded like a card house. I have been a critic of his the last 2 years but I have been rooting hard for him the whole time, and last night I thought Dixon drew up an excellent game plan for James and James executed it beautifully--until it really mattered at the end. He was awful in that last 2 minutes, just flat out awful.

 

[Black Panther]

You never "have the game won" with an 8 point lead and 8 minutes to go. Not......Even......Close. Also, it wasn't Levitch or the other kid who played at the end of the first half (end of the first half--who cares?) that beat us. It was our own offensive failures in the last 2-3 minutes that beat us. JROB gets a critical steal, Luther mishandles the pass at the rim that would have given us a 2 point lead, Levitch makes his 3--a 5 point swing on Luther's bobbled pass--Artis and Robinson both miss open shots. Robinson's was a "missed everything" runner from about 8 feet--it was a 3 point game at that point--Onuaka gets an uncontested dunk, Artis misses another 3 and the game is basically over. In my mind, that blown offensive possession where Artis missed an open 3 and Robinson badly missed his shot was the ballgame. It was a 3 point Ville lead and still anybody's game with 1:30 left until that happened.

Robinson played a strong game until the last 2 minutes, when he folded like a card house. I have been a critic of his the last 2 years but I have been rooting hard for him the whole time, and last night I thought Dixon drew up an excellent game plan for James and James executed it beautifully--until it really mattered at the end. He was awful in that last 2 minutes, just flat out awful.

I thought those second half ticky tak offensive fouls hurt our momentum as well.Two empty trips there.Missed foul shots and a couple missed lay ups spells disaster in trying to catch up or hold on to a lead against anybody much less last night's opponent.Still a game that we should have and could have won.

 

[JS School]

How sad that this type of explanation is warranted.
As long as Pitt continues to not recruit players that can score in the clutch we as fans will be witness to games such as last night, wishing and hoping.
How much longer will nostalgia carry the upbeat atmosphere at the Pete?

How exactly can you ensure that the players you are recruiting can score in the clutch? In high school a Division 1 prospect is probably much better than almost all of the opposition and is probably playing in a gym in front of a few hundred people. I don't know that you can accurately predict how well he will score in pressure situations against top college competition in front of 10,000 fans.

 

[pittbb80]

I dare say every Pitt team during the Dixon era has been "flawed" in some way but during the regular season they were able to overcome the flaws with smart, tough play and sharp execution. We're used to watching flawed players or players with less talent than the top dogs, we're less used to watching poor execution and,selfish, dumb and lackadaisical play. Normally coaching has been able to compensate for flawed players under Dixon but not with this team. If you don't elevate the play of flawed players through sharp execution as a team, you lose and that's what we have seen with this team against the better competiton. They are both flawed individually in terms of talent but also flawed in terms of team play.

True but as you said, in addition to being flawed, they don't have those other skill sets that can offset the lack of basketball skills. Those previous teams were physically dominating and played very physical defense. Cutters didn't get a free pass In the lane. Guys posting up actually had to work to get into position. They played very physical on the ball (with their bodys not their hands). Some of the difference is the rules have changed to minimize the physicality of the game, although the Ville played about as physical as you can get in the last game at the Yum center. The other part is that this group is a bunch of finesse players who actually can be thrown off their games when the game is more physical. They cant compensate for being off on the offensive end of the court by wearing teams down. They have to be "on" offensively to win games and for the most part they lack the mental toughness it takes to make those key plays needed to pull out wins in close games (see the last second tip in by Miami as exhibit A)..

On average they are playing up to their capabilities.

 

[Delpanther]

True but as you said, in addition to being flawed, they don't have those other skill sets that can offset the lack of basketball skills. Those previous teams were physically dominating and played very physical defense. Cutters didn't get a free pass In the lane. Guys posting up actually had to work to get into position. They played very physical on the ball (with their bodys not their hands). Some of the difference is the rules have changed to minimize the physicality of the game, although the Ville played about as physical as you can get in the last game at the Yum center. The other part is that this group is a bunch of finesse players who actually can be thrown off their games when the game is more physical. They cant compensate for being off on the offensive end of the court by wearing teams down. They have to be "on" offensively to win games and for the most part they lack the mental toughness it takes to make those key plays needed to pull out wins in close games (see the last second tip in by Miami as exhibit A)..

On average they are playing up to their capabilities.

I don't disagree with anything you mention above. It's fair to say though that there is angst but that frustration isn't so much due to overestimating this team's ability or this team not playing up to its talent level as it is about the current direction of the program and a clear decline over the team's play the last 5 years. Fan reactions at any point in time are an amalgam of what happened yesterday, what happened today and what's likely to happen tomorrow. And in Pitt's case the recent past and present insofar as they tell us anything about the likely future cast doubt on the program's future. For Pitt hoop fans, these aren't happy times in light of our previous success in the BE.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I dare say every Pitt team during the Dixon era has been "flawed" in some way but during the regular season they were able to overcome the flaws with smart, tough play and sharp execution. We're used to watching flawed players or players with less talent than the top dogs, we're less used to watching poor execution and,selfish, dumb and lackadaisical play. Normally coaching has been able to compensate for flawed players under Dixon but not with this team. If you don't elevate the play of flawed players through sharp execution as a team, you lose and that's what we have seen with this team against the better competiton. They are both flawed individually in terms of talent but also flawed in terms of team play.

Just wanted to point out I think this is a great post, and I agree with all of it.

 

[Delpanther]

Just wanted to point out I think this is a great post, and I agree with all of it.

Thanks.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Thanks.

See, not always contrarian. ;-)

 

[BigZeke]

How sad that this type of explanation is warranted.
As long as Pitt continues to not recruit players that can score in the clutch we as fans will be witness to games such as last night, wishing and hoping.
How much longer will nostalgia carry the upbeat atmosphere at the Pete?

In years past you just knew (knew!) Pitt was gonna grind teams into the ground when they were up 8 with 8 minutes to go. Most of the more talented teams we faced were tired by that juncture of the game of getting manhandled by the Fella's, Chevy's & Torree's of previous Pitt fame. We also had clutch performers who could put the ball in the basket at crunch time like Levance, BK, Sam & CK. What we have now is a bunch of guys who fold like a basement card table in every close game against any good team. Last night JRob misses an easy 14 footer with a chance to stretch the lead to stretch it to 10 and boom let the folding begin. All too familiar lately. H2P!

 

[pittbb80]

I don't disagree with anything you mention above. It's fair to say though that there is angst but that frustration isn't so much due to overestimating this team's ability or this team not playing up to its talent level as it is about the current direction of the program and a clear decline over the team's play the last 5 years. Fan reactions at any point in time are an amalgam of what happened yesterday, what happened today and what's likely to happen tomorrow. And in Pitt's case the recent past and present insofar as they tell us anything about the likely future cast doubt on the program's future. For Pitt hoop fans, these aren't happy times in light of our previous success in the BE.

That was kind of the gist of my post The angst over THIS team is misplaced. They are who they are. The ANGST should be over the recruiting misses that have resulted in a team that is not only flawed but lacks the intangibles to over come the flaws. The real question is, can JD and company reverse this trend.......Are the guys coming in next year going to change this trend. I've got to say, for as much shite that JROB gets on this board, hes closer to the type of player that made elevated this program than JA and MY. Luther seems like a kid who may be more in that mold as well.

I actually saw some positives last night. They played hard and played as physical as this team can play. They just spit the bit on offense in crunch time. IMO what happens against GT and VT on the road is far more telling that a tough loss against a far more talented team

 

[noelr]

Both tech playing well away and particularly at home

 

[PantherO]

Snyder better than Robinson

Lewis/Adel better than Jones

Lee better than Artis

Johnson and Young are fairly equal but Johnson doesnt have to do anything on that team

Onuaku better than our 5s

Pitt has a history under early Dixon and Howland of beating better teams (especially at home). Those teams played great defense and "Team" basketball. They did this without having an "Elite" shooter.

 

[Cavalier Panther]

My angst is that we aren't beating any if the good teams, we have yet to outperform. It's just feeling a lot like last year, we're stuck in third gear and our chances if making the dance are precarious. The worst part is that we have the horses, but if our two star forwards make bad decisions we'll keep losing.

 

[Harve74]

In years past you just knew (knew!) Pitt was gonna grind teams into the ground when they were up 8 with 8 minutes to go. Most of the more talented teams we faced were tired by that juncture of the game of getting manhandled by the Fella's, Chevy's & Torree's of previous Pitt fame. We also had clutch performers who could put the ball in the basket at crunch time like Levance, BK, Sam & CK. What we have now is a bunch of guys who fold like a basement card table in every close game against any good team. Last night JRob misses an easy 14 footer with a chance to stretch the lead to stretch it to 10 and boom let the folding begin. All too familiar lately. H2P!

Zeke, you hit on a very frustrating point.

When Young and Artis were signed, nobody thought either of thrm were skilled, athletic players. Both were considered mostly blue-collar, lunch-pail type guys. Scappers, not high fliers.

Young was mostly a below the rim banger, with the ability to step outside and stretch the defense a litte bit. Artis was a kid who outgrew his "power -guard" possibilities but wasn't big enough to really be a 4.Just a tweener who was almost an afterthought.

I know the ProAm gets a lot of grief from some of the intellegensia on here and since WVU quit coming and the older semi-pros like Chevy and the 7 footer Kyle ( Goldcamp?, Goldschmidt?) and several other guys who played internationally have basically stopped coming, the talent and competition have dropped off. But it WAS very competitive once.

When Mike and Jamel were freshmen there, they were very hard-working, physical bangers who took no prisoners on the court. They seemed to glory in tough battles in the paint.

But, by their second seasons, both had begun re-sculpting their bodies and transforming into perimeter jump shooters. While walking to the parking lot after one game an old Panther fan rather disgustedly asked me "When did Mike Young become a small forward? All he did was shoot jumpers all night!"

It was said that Dixon thought both kids needed to pare off some baby-fat and improve their athleticism to compete in the ACC. I think they went too far. They shed not only pounds but the attitude necessary to compete. Now, they coast. JRob and maybe now Luther (evntually) are the closest we have to that old standard-issue Pitt guy and JRob can't carry a team.

It's tough to predict who is gonna be "clutch" at crunch time. Stats guys claim that "clutch" doesn't really exist. But, it's awfully easy to see that some teams fold like tissue paper when adversity comes calling. We didn't used to do that. The Pete used to known as "Where Top 10 teams come to die."

Not now.

I wouldn't say we choked against Scottie Reynolds or when Nasir fouled Butler, or even when an unknown Wichita State team climbed over us on their way to the Final Four. But, maybe we did. We certainly lost winnable games. Somewhere in that stretch, , our refuse to lose attitude went South.

The ony linkage we have to those old tough teams in on the bench. And our disgruntled fan base wants massive change there.

I suspect Pitt will never recruit 5-stars enough to win big games unless we go back to Golden Panthers buyng rosters and I don't think a NIST physicist like Dr. Gallagher would ever permit that.
I thnk our best chance is to emulate Virginia and go back to a physcal, blue-collar identity. I THINK we might be able to recruit THAT way. The zebras might foul us out and prevent us from winning big, but I don't think we'd be on the wong end of 20+ point blow-outs either.

We gotta recruit some tough guys.

 

[BigZeke]

Zeke, you hit on a very frustrating point.

When Young and Artis were signed, nobody thought either of thrm were skilled, athletic players. Both were considered mostly blue-collar, lunch-pail type guys. Scappers, not high fliers.

Young was mostly a below the rim banger, with the ability to step outside and stretch te defrnse a litte bit. Artis was a kid who outgrew his "power -guard" possibilities but wasn't big enough to really be a 4.Just a tweener who was almost an afterthought.

I know the ProAm gets a lot of grief from some of the intellegensia on here and since WVU quit coming and the older semi-pros like Chevy and the 7 footer Kyle ( Goldcamp?, Goldschmidt?) and several other guys who played internationally have basically stopped coming, the talent and competition have dropped off. But it WAS very competitive once.

When Mike and Jamel were freshmen there, they were very hard-working, physical bangers who took no prisoners on the court. They seemed to glory in tough battles in the paint.

But, by their second seasons, both had begun re-sculpting their bodies and transforming into perimeter jump shooters. While walking to the parking lot after one game an old Panther fan rather disgustedly asked me "When did Mike Young become a small forward? All he did was shoot jumpers all night!"

It was said that Dixon thought both kids needed to pare off some baby-fat and improve their athleticism to compete in the ACC. I think they went too far. They shed not only pounds but the attitude necessary to compete. Now, they coast. JRob and maybe now Luther (evntually) are the closest we have to that old standard-issue Pitt guy and JRob can't carry a team.

It's tough to predict who is gonna be "clutch" at crunch time. Stats guys claim that "clutch" doesn't really exist. But, it's awfully easy to see that some teams fold like tissue paper when adversity comes calling. We didn't use to do that. The Pete used to known as "Where Top 10 teans come to die."

Not now.

I wouldn't say we choked against Scottie Reynolds or when Nasir fouled Butler, or even when an unknown Wichita State team climbed over us on their way to the Final Four. But, maybe we did. We certainly lost winnable games. Somewhere in that stretch, , our refuse to lose attitude went South.

The ony linkage we have to those old tough teams in on the bench. And our disgruntled fan base wants massive change there.

I suspect Pitt will never recruit 5-stars enough to win big games unless we go back to Golden Panthers buyng rosters and I don't think a NIST physicist like Dr. Gallagher would ever permit that.
I thnk our best chance is to emulate Virginia and go back to a physcal, blue-collar identity. I THINK we might be able to recruit THAT way. The zebras might foul us out and prevent us from winning big, but I don't think we'd be on the wong end of 20+ point blow-outs either.

We gotta recruit some tough guys.

Couldn't have said it better Harve. Never forget watching a Pitt practice a few years back and Brandin Knight turned to us unsolicited and yelled "too many nice guys on this team". Pretty prophetic sadly. I'm also hoping Manigault & Justice are two building blocks back toward the highly effective Pitt style of years past. I have a hard time watching Virginia these days "out-Pitting" us. H2P!

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I"ll say, Wichita State wasn't unknown that year..

When we got that draw, I commented "Oh crap, that team can out Pitt us". Just like SDSU did in Maui.

 

[Harve74]

I"ll say, Wichita State wasn't unknown that year..

When we got that draw, I commented "Oh crap, that team can out Pitt us". Just like SDSU did in Maui.

Can't argue. They were dangerous and proved it in their run to the Final 4. But, we were the higher seed and our fans certainly thought we choked by losng to them. Then again, they are OUR fans, who have proven not to have a whole lot of basketball perspective.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Can't argue. They were dangerous and proved it in their run to the Final 4. But, we were the higher seed and our fans certainly thought we choked by losng to them. Then again, they are OUR fans, who have proven not to have a whole lot of basketball perspective.

I think that is just basketball fans in general in Pittsburgh don't understand. This is pretty much their mantra:

1) They usually don't follow college BB until about now, maybe not even until March Madness and "brackets".
2) Many people here view college BB like college FB where a loss is so much more magnified.
3) Here's a thing that drove me crazy, the Big East Tourney Championship (or now the ACC Tourney). To win this, you had to say beat Syracuse, UConn and Georgetown (or say Syracuse, UNC and Duke) on consecutive nights. In the March Madness, you can beat E Tenn State and say Cal and be in the Sweet 16 and this is somehow viewed as more of an accomplishments. Those conference titles matter and should be cherished!!!!
4) Losing to Xavier, or a Butler or these "mid majors" is not being upset. In many cases they are better than the "bluebloods". For some reason, yinzers can't comprehend this.
5) Pitt never wins any big games. Despite winning Big East titles, knocking off #1 and top 5 teams, getting to the Sweet 16. The only "big" game is the one Pitt loses.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I think that is just basketball fans in general in Pittsburgh don't understand. This is pretty much their mantra:

1) They usually don't follow college BB until about now, maybe not even until March Madness and "brackets".
2) Many people here view college BB like college FB where a loss is so much more magnified.
3) Here's a thing that drove me crazy, the Big East Tourney Championship (or now the ACC Tourney). To win this, you had to say beat Syracuse, UConn and Georgetown (or say Syracuse, UNC and Duke) on consecutive nights. In the March Madness, you can beat E Tenn State and say Cal and be in the Sweet 16 and this is somehow viewed as more of an accomplishments. Those conference titles matter and should be cherished!!!!
4) Losing to Xavier, or a Butler or these "mid majors" is not being upset. In many cases they are better than the "bluebloods". For some reason, yinzers can't comprehend this.
5) Pitt never wins any big games. Despite winning Big East titles, knocking off #1 and top 5 teams, getting to the Sweet 16. The only "big" game is the one Pitt loses.

Well said.

I wouldn't trade a BET or ACC title for a Final Four or even Elite 8 run... but, I'd value them higher than S16 or lower as an accomplishment.

 

[pittbb80]

Zeke, you hit on a very frustrating point.

When Young and Artis were signed, nobody thought either of thrm were skilled, athletic players. Both were considered mostly blue-collar, lunch-pail type guys. Scappers, not high fliers.

Young was mostly a below the rim banger, with the ability to step outside and stretch the defense a litte bit. Artis was a kid who outgrew his "power -guard" possibilities but wasn't big enough to really be a 4.Just a tweener who was almost an afterthought.

I know the ProAm gets a lot of grief from some of the intellegensia on here and since WVU quit coming and the older semi-pros like Chevy and the 7 footer Kyle ( Goldcamp?, Goldschmidt?) and several other guys who played internationally have basically stopped coming, the talent and competition have dropped off. But it WAS very competitive once.

When Mike and Jamel were freshmen there, they were very hard-working, physical bangers who took no prisoners on the court. They seemed to glory in tough battles in the paint.

But, by their second seasons, both had begun re-sculpting their bodies and transforming into perimeter jump shooters. While walking to the parking lot after one game an old Panther fan rather disgustedly asked me "When did Mike Young become a small forward? All he did was shoot jumpers all night!"

It was said that Dixon thought both kids needed to pare off some baby-fat and improve their athleticism to compete in the ACC. I think they went too far. They shed not only pounds but the attitude necessary to compete. Now, they coast. JRob and maybe now Luther (evntually) are the closest we have to that old standard-issue Pitt guy and JRob can't carry a team.

It's tough to predict who is gonna be "clutch" at crunch time. Stats guys claim that "clutch" doesn't really exist. But, it's awfully easy to see that some teams fold like tissue paper when adversity comes calling. We didn't used to do that. The Pete used to known as "Where Top 10 teams come to die."

Not now.

I wouldn't say we choked against Scottie Reynolds or when Nasir fouled Butler, or even when an unknown Wichita State team climbed over us on their way to the Final Four. But, maybe we did. We certainly lost winnable games. Somewhere in that stretch, , our refuse to lose attitude went South.

The ony linkage we have to those old tough teams in on the bench. And our disgruntled fan base wants massive change there.


We gotta recruit some tough guys.

Good post. I do think its fair to question whether or not the extremely physical style of play the panthers used to play would work in todays college game where breathing on a guy is a foul. However I do think there is a happy medium that this team doesn't even remotely come close to other than as you said JROB (who I stated above for all the grief he gets hes closer to the early era JD style of player than anyone else on the current Roster).

One other thought. "Talent" comes in many shapes or forms. Theres God given athletic talent. I think the prior squads had more athletic ability than the guys we have now. Theres no one on the team who has Sam Youngs ability and in terms of combined strength and quickness, no one matches up with Fella. Not sure JROB is as athletically gifted at Karl or Vance in terms of quickness. I also think people tended to underestimate the "talent" that those earlier squads had as well.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

And in perfect timing......this.

 

[thebadby2]

Zeke, you hit on a very frustrating point.

When Young and Artis were signed, nobody thought either of thrm were skilled, athletic players. Both were considered mostly blue-collar, lunch-pail type guys. Scappers, not high fliers.

Young was mostly a below the rim banger, with the ability to step outside and stretch the defense a litte bit. Artis was a kid who outgrew his "power -guard" possibilities but wasn't big enough to really be a 4.Just a tweener who was almost an afterthought.

I know the ProAm gets a lot of grief from some of the intellegensia on here and since WVU quit coming and the older semi-pros like Chevy and the 7 footer Kyle ( Goldcamp?, Goldschmidt?) and several other guys who played internationally have basically stopped coming, the talent and competition have dropped off. But it WAS very competitive once.

When Mike and Jamel were freshmen there, they were very hard-working, physical bangers who took no prisoners on the court. They seemed to glory in tough battles in the paint.

But, by their second seasons, both had begun re-sculpting their bodies and transforming into perimeter jump shooters. While walking to the parking lot after one game an old Panther fan rather disgustedly asked me "When did Mike Young become a small forward? All he did was shoot jumpers all night!"

It was said that Dixon thought both kids needed to pare off some baby-fat and improve their athleticism to compete in the ACC. I think they went too far. They shed not only pounds but the attitude necessary to compete. Now, they coast. JRob and maybe now Luther (evntually) are the closest we have to that old standard-issue Pitt guy and JRob can't carry a team.

It's tough to predict who is gonna be "clutch" at crunch time. Stats guys claim that "clutch" doesn't really exist. But, it's awfully easy to see that some teams fold like tissue paper when adversity comes calling. We didn't used to do that. The Pete used to known as "Where Top 10 teams come to die."

Not now.

I wouldn't say we choked against Scottie Reynolds or when Nasir fouled Butler, or even when an unknown Wichita State team climbed over us on their way to the Final Four. But, maybe we did. We certainly lost winnable games. Somewhere in that stretch, , our refuse to lose attitude went South.

The ony linkage we have to those old tough teams in on the bench. And our disgruntled fan base wants massive change there.

I suspect Pitt will never recruit 5-stars enough to win big games unless we go back to Golden Panthers buyng rosters and I don't think a NIST physicist like Dr. Gallagher would ever permit that.
I thnk our best chance is to emulate Virginia and go back to a physcal, blue-collar identity. I THINK we might be able to recruit THAT way. The zebras might foul us out and prevent us from winning big, but I don't think we'd be on the wong end of 20+ point blow-outs either.

We gotta recruit some tough guys.

Well said by both you and Zeke. Two good posts there.

 

[thebadby2]

Well said.

I wouldn't trade a BET or ACC title for a Final Four or even Elite 8 run... but, I'd value them higher than S16 or lower as an accomplishment.

I wouldn't trade a BET or ACC title for a Final Four or even Elite 8 run

You serious Clark?

I'll bet Jamie Dixon would. Here's how you're judged as a college basketball coach--have you been to a Final Four? How many times? And that's not just by the layperson or casual fan, but by the guys in the business.

When you make the FF, you've arrived. When you win your conference tourney but lose in the second round or Sweet 16 of the NCAAs, not so much.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I wouldn't trade a BET or ACC title for a Final Four or even Elite 8 run

You serious Clark?

I'll bet Jamie Dixon would. Here's how you're judged as a college basketball coach--have you been to a Final Four? How many times? And that's not just by the layperson or casual fan, but by the guys in the business.

When you make the FF, you've arrived. When you win your conference tourney but lose in the second round or Sweet 16 of the NCAAs, not so much.

Yes, I totally agree.
which is why I said I WOULDN'T TRADE A CONFERENCE TITLE for a FF or EE.
Anything below that level of performance..I think the conference title is a better accomplishment.

Perhaps my syntax just sucked.

 

[thebadby2]

Yes, I totally agree.
which is why I said I WOULDN'T TRADE A CONFERENCE TITLE for a FF or EE.
Anything below that level of performance..I think the conference title is a better accomplishment.

Perhaps my syntax just sucked.

I don't get that mindset. It's reminiscent of the old Bo Schembechler philosophy--his goal every year was to win the B10 and go to the Rose Bowl. Not to play for or win a NC, not even to actually WIN the Rose Bowl. Just to get there. And he made no bones about that, which drove a lot of the Michigan faithful nuts. As revered as Bo was, U of M never would have sniffed a NC while he was there. He never even wanted to. And like the FF, the NC is what you play for in college football.

I disagree wholeheartedly with you on this one. I would add that the challenge of winning 4 games against random and most often totally unfamiliar quality opponents in unfamiliar venues with the highest of stakes is certainly a greater accomplishment than winning the conference tournament. And Pitt basketball would be my Exhibit A--because we could win our league but only once in that entire run were we able to win 3 games in the NCAA tournament.

 

[KiwiJeff]

I don't get that mindset. It's reminiscent of the old Bo Schembechler philosophy--his goal every year was to win the B10 and go to the Rose Bowl. Not to play for or win a NC, not even to actually WIN the Rose Bowl. Just to get there. And he made no bones about that, which drove a lot of the Michigan faithful nuts. As revered as Bo was, U of M never would have sniffed a NC while he was there. He never even wanted to. And like the FF, the NC is what you play for in college football.

I disagree wholeheartedly with you on this one. I would add that the challenge of winning 4 games against random and most often totally unfamiliar quality opponents in unfamiliar venues with the highest of stakes is certainly a greater accomplishment than winning the conference tournament. And Pitt basketball would be my Exhibit A--because we could win our league but only once in that entire run were we able to win 3 games in the NCAA tournament.

You guys are agreeing. He is saying EE and FF are better. S16 and below are not. Like he said, his syntax was a bit off so the transitive function of the trade off wasn't apparent. If you read his whole post though, you could figure it out.

 

[Joe Magarac]

How exactly can you ensure that the players you are recruiting can score in the clutch? In high school a Division 1 prospect is probably much better than almost all of the opposition and is probably playing in a gym in front of a few hundred people. I don't know that you can accurately predict how well he will score in pressure situations against top college competition in front of 10,000 fans.

Other teams succeed in this endeavor, Pitt, not so much.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I dare say every Pitt team during the Dixon era has been "flawed" in some way but during the regular season they were able to overcome the flaws with smart, tough play and sharp execution. We're used to watching flawed players or players with less talent than the top dogs, we're less used to watching poor execution and,selfish, dumb and lackadaisical play. Normally coaching has been able to compensate for flawed players under Dixon but not with this team. If you don't elevate the play of flawed players through sharp execution as a team, you lose and that's what we have seen with this team against the better competiton. They are both flawed individually in terms of talent but also flawed in terms of team play.

I used to say that we were greater than the sum of our parts. That is certainly no longer true.