WPIAL conference idea

[Sean Miller Fan]

We are a few weeks away from blowout football season, teams traveling 50 miles to lose 60-0 when they could have done that the next town over. So, here's my idea:

Let the AD's make their own conferences. Mandate that each conference have 8 teams. Doesn't matter what classification you are in. If a 3A school wants to play with 6A schools and those schools want them in their conference, then do it. The goal should be competitive balance.

Here's an example. Instead of Belle Vernon killing everyone in Westmoreland County and Uniontown having to go independent, maybe Belle Vernon joins a conference with TJ, Peters, USC, CM, BP, SF, CV, and Lebo. Maybe Uniontown joins a conference with Brownsville, AG, Frazier, Mapletown, Waynesburg, Geibel, Carmichaels

Then the WPIAL schedules 2 non-conference games which are important factors for playoff consideration so these must be teams in your classification. So maybe Uniontown goes 7-0 in their section and BV goes 2-5 in theirs, BV would possibly win their 2 non-conference games while Uniontown loses to say EF and West Mifflin and gets a 3A playoff bid over Uniontown.

The goal of all this is to minimize blowouts and allowing teams to play nearby rivals regardless of class.

 

[pittdan77]

Kinda confused about "traveling 50 miles to lose 60-0" and then complaining that BV plays relatively local games in their section. But while we're at it, Belle Vernon (AAA) played three 4A teams (lost one) and one 5A team (lost that one) last season.

So, where are you going with this one?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Remember that movie from the early 80's with Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton, "Night Shift"??? SMF is Bill Blazowski (Keaton's character) an "idea man".

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Kinda confused about "traveling 50 miles to lose 60-0" and then complaining that BV plays relatively local games in their section. But while we're at it, Belle Vernon (AAA) played three 4A teams (lost one) and one 5A team (lost that one) last season.

So, where are you going with this one?

Just saying that coaches and AD's should choose who to align with for competitiveness and rivalries. Here's another example. Lets say Seton-Lasalle got serious about football and became a perennial state champ. Instead of driving 30 miles to play a 1A or 2A conference opponent and winning 80-0, they could be in a conference with the big South Hills schools so they hab competitive games all year.

 

[pittdan77]

Just saying that coaches and AD's should choose who to align with for competitiveness and rivalries. Here's another example. Lets say Seton-Lasalle got serious about football and became a perennial state champ. Instead of driving 30 miles to play a 1A or 2A conference opponent and winning 80-0, they could be in a conference with the big South Hills schools so they hab competitive games all year.

Seton LaSalle is 3A and play mostly local teams.

I think you're confused about the cause and effect of blowouts. It's kinda like college football. Some schools care about football and some don't. The classification is set by the PIAA and sections are set up to keep things as local as possible for schools. Maintain rivalries as much as possible. Kind of is, what it is.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Remember that movie from the early 80's with Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton, "Night Shift"??? SMF is Bill Blazowski (Keaton's character) an "idea man".

a truly under rated 80's classic..

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

you arent going to get rid of lopsided games. there were lopsided wins in the WPIAL in the 70s, 80s and 90s when it was 4 classifications just like there are now.. there is no magic formula to eliminate this.. If anything, the wpial enforcing male enrollment more so now and prioritizing it over geography is helping minimize these blowouts..

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Seton LaSalle is 3A and play mostly local teams.

I think you're confused about the cause and effect of blowouts. It's kinda like college football. Some schools care about football and some don't. The classification is set by the PIAA and sections are set up to keep things as local as possible for schools. Maintain rivalries as much as possible. Kind of is, what it is.

SL was a hypothetical example. Isnt Bishop Canevin 1A? Lets say they became a real powerhouse and wanted to be in the same conference as Moon, Montour, West A. They should be but then would compete in the 1A playoffs.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

SL was a hypothetical example. Isnt Bishop Canevin 1A? Lets say they became a real powerhouse and wanted to be in the same conference as Moon, Montour, West A. They should be but then would compete in the 1A playoffs.

got to give you credit man, you come up with some "out of the box" ideas.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I don't know what can be done about the blowouts, other than no longer letting the process be:

"This transfer can't play!"
*Appeal*
"Okay, he can play."

Of course, that will barely make a dent in anything anyway.

But I do tend to think the geography has gotten a little silly in the name of leveling a playing field that isn't level anyway. You lose a lot of rivalries when the teams in bordering towns aren't playing each other. I'm not suggesting drastic measures like 1A schools playing 5A schools... but, like, Beaver (3A) can't be in with Western Beaver and Beaver Falls (both 2A)?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I don't know what can be done about the blowouts, other than no longer letting the process be:

"This transfer can't play!"
*Appeal*
"Okay, he can play."

Of course, that will barely make a dent in anything anyway.

But I do tend to think the geography has gotten a little silly in the name of leveling a playing field that isn't level anyway. You lose a lot of rivalries when the teams in bordering towns aren't playing each other. I'm not suggesting drastic measures like 1A schools playing 5A schools... but, like, Beaver (3A) can't be in with Western Beaver and Beaver Falls (both 2A)?

You wont eliminate all blowouts but you can reduce them. And as I said, you can get blown out in the next town over. And if they eliminated classes for the regular season, you would find that strict class breakdowns dont mean very much in football. The 6A system is good for playoffs. Its really bad for the regular season. Take South Allegheny for example. The 6A system requires them to lose to Belle Vernon 60-0 and take the back roads to the most rural parts of Westmoreland County. For what? They should just be in a conference with Serra, East Allegheny, West Mifflin, EF, maybe like South Park, Brentwood, etc.

 

[Upg bobcat]

I don't know what can be done about the blowouts, other than no longer letting the process be:

"This transfer can't play!"
*Appeal*
"Okay, he can play."

Of course, that will barely make a dent in anything anyway.

But I do tend to think the geography has gotten a little silly in the name of leveling a playing field that isn't level anyway. You lose a lot of rivalries when the teams in bordering towns aren't playing each other. I'm not suggesting drastic measures like 1A schools playing 5A schools... but, like, Beaver (3A) can't be in with Western Beaver and Beaver Falls (both 2A)?

I wouldn't be surprised if within the next 20 years, the PIAA goes to 8 classifications.

Here is a question ... is the WPIAL too big? I know it has a lot of history and you are going to have resistance to change, but does it make sense for say Greene County schools to be the same PIAA district as Lawrence County Schools? Would transferring some WPIAL school districts on the edges of the WPIAL region to other PIAA districts help for competitive balance purposes?

 

[Parkview57]

Let the AD's make their own conferences.

They do, its just that it is so much easier to have schedules given to you, makes your job easy, plus, if most everyone else enjoys the conference system and stays in it, who are the AD's going to schedule ?

 

[mlvnsmly]

You wont eliminate all blowouts but you can reduce them. And as I said, you can get blown out in the next town over. And if they eliminated classes for the regular season, you would find that strict class breakdowns dont mean very much in football. The 6A system is good for playoffs. Its really bad for the regular season. Take South Allegheny for example. The 6A system requires them to lose to Belle Vernon 60-0 and take the back roads to the most rural parts of Westmoreland County. For what? They should just be in a conference with Serra, East Allegheny, West Mifflin, EF, maybe like South Park, Brentwood, etc.

Tell me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is without telling me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is.

EF and Belle Vernon literally share a border as do SA na EF. And maybe you've heard of 51? Those 2 schools are 20 minutes apart. Which, if you're familiar with that area, is how long it takes to get to anywhere around there.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Tell me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is without telling me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is.

EF and Belle Vernon literally share a border as do SA na EF. And maybe you've heard of 51? Those 2 schools are 20 minutes apart. Which, if you're familiar with that area, is how long it takes to get to anywhere around there.

Its not so much that SA is terribly far from Belle Vernon. But they got stuck playing Westmoreland County farm teams PLUS an annual asskicking vs BVA when they could be having competitive games nearby.

 

[pittdan77]

Tell me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is without telling me you have no clue where Belle Vernon is.

EF and Belle Vernon literally share a border as do SA na EF. And maybe you've heard of 51? Those 2 schools are 20 minutes apart. Which, if you're familiar with that area, is how long it takes to get to anywhere around there.

Wasn't even a year ago that he was arguing that Central PA schools traveling 2-1/2 hours to a WPIAL game shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Wasn't even a year ago that he was arguing that Central PA schools traveling 2-1/2 hours to a WPIAL game shouldn't be a big deal.

That was IF the current system was kept. If it so important that 6A teams be in a conference with 6A teams and only 6A teams then yes, I think the Erie and Altoona teams should be in the WPIAL. However, I believe conferences should be made based on competitiveness and geography as I said in my OP

 

[pittdan77]

SL was a hypothetical example. Isnt Bishop Canevin 1A? Lets say they became a real powerhouse and wanted to be in the same conference as Moon, Montour, West A. They should be but then would compete in the 1A playoffs.

Maybe Moon doesn't want to be a 5A team getting blown out by a 1A sized program?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Maybe Moon doesn't want to be a 5A team getting blown out by a 1A sized program?

Then they, West A, and Montour dont "invite" them. Why do you always miss the point? Even for those who disagree, they at least understand what I am saying. You are the only one who cant even comprehend the idea.

 

[pittdan77]

That was IF the current system was kept. If it so important that 6A teams be in a conference with 6A teams and only 6A teams then yes, I think the Erie and Altoona teams should be in the WPIAL. However, I believe conferences should be made based on competitiveness and geography as I said in my OP

I mean, they pretty much are. The point of classifications is to put similarly sized schools together because they have similar resources (unless they recruit but that's another argument). The fact that sometimes one team sucks is irrelevant. If you look at the conference alignment, they do their best to keep schools close together but that's not always simple.

 

[Burgh15]

The ADs voted down the cross-classification locally-based conferences when it was proposed. It was a win-win for close games and competitive balance. It definitely wasn't perfect as certain teams will always dominate, but it was pretty good.

 

[pittdan77]

Then they, West A, and Montour dont "invite" them. Why do you always miss the point? Even for those who disagree, they at least understand what I am saying. You are the only one who cant even comprehend the idea.

It's not my fault that you are just throwing crap at the wall, hoping it sticks.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Remember that movie from the early 80's with Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton, "Night Shift"??? SMF is Bill Blazowski (Keaton's character) an "idea man".

At least Blazejowski was funny.

Call Starkist.

 

[pittdan77]

The ADs voted down the cross-classification locally-based conferences when it was proposed. It was a win-win for close games and competitive balance. It definitely wasn't perfect as certain teams will always dominate, but it was pretty good.

View embedded media

There are other parts of the state where conferences are created based on the interests of the school. District 6 is a good example. Schools play where they want, if they're accepted. You end up with conferences that stretch from Clearfield to Franklin or Somerset Counties with 1A through 4A schools lumped together. Guess what? Still have blowouts.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You wont eliminate all blowouts but you can reduce them. And as I said, you can get blown out in the next town over. And if they eliminated classes for the regular season, you would find that strict class breakdowns dont mean very much in football. The 6A system is good for playoffs. Its really bad for the regular season. Take South Allegheny for example. The 6A system requires them to lose to Belle Vernon 60-0 and take the back roads to the most rural parts of Westmoreland County. For what? They should just be in a conference with Serra, East Allegheny, West Mifflin, EF, maybe like South Park, Brentwood, etc.

I said this before, on the last year of 4 or was it 5 classifications, my Alma Mater was in a conference with all of these schools within 12 miles of each other. Made for easy trips for team and fans. Natural rivalries. The first year they went to 6 classifications, they were a conference with the shortest trip 12 miles and most averaged 38 miles or more. Yeah, that is the way to build interest.

 

[redbyrds]

You also would avoid many blowouts if you separated public schools from private schools as other states do, and leveled the playing field per se.

 

[Burgh15]

I said this before, on the last year of 4 or was it 5 classifications, my Alma Mater was in a conference with all of these schools within 12 miles of each other. Made for easy trips for team and fans. Natural rivalries. The first year they went to 6 classifications, they were a conference with the shortest trip 12 miles and most averaged 38 miles or more. Yeah, that is the way to build interest.

The WPIAL does a lot wrong. One thing they did right was schedule close, natural rival games for non-sections and a lot paid off with big crowds and excitement. A totally different atmosphere from conference play when teams routinely drive 45+ minutes to play in front of a 40-50% filled stadium with 75 fans from the visiting team.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The ADs voted down the cross-classification locally-based conferences when it was proposed. It was a win-win for close games and competitive balance. It definitely wasn't perfect as certain teams will always dominate, but it was pretty good.

View embedded media

Yea thats pretty good. The only difference in what I'm saying is you allow the schools to create their own conferences much like the NCAA does. If a 1A team and 6A team want to be together, great. If a 2A team and 5A team 50 miles apart want to be together, great.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

We are a few weeks away from blowout football season, teams traveling 50 miles to lose 60-0 when they could have done that the next town over. So, here's my idea:

Let the AD's make their own conferences. Mandate that each conference have 8 teams. Doesn't matter what classification you are in. If a 3A school wants to play with 6A schools and those schools want them in their conference, then do it. The goal should be competitive balance.

Here's an example. Instead of Belle Vernon killing everyone in Westmoreland County and Uniontown having to go independent, maybe Belle Vernon joins a conference with TJ, Peters, USC, CM, BP, SF, CV, and Lebo. Maybe Uniontown joins a conference with Brownsville, AG, Frazier, Mapletown, Waynesburg, Geibel, Carmichaels

Then the WPIAL schedules 2 non-conference games which are important factors for playoff consideration so these must be teams in your classification. So maybe Uniontown goes 7-0 in their section and BV goes 2-5 in theirs, BV would possibly win their 2 non-conference games while Uniontown loses to say EF and West Mifflin and gets a 3A playoff bid over Uniontown.

The goal of all this is to minimize blowouts and allowing teams to play nearby rivals regardless of class.

Can't disagree any more with your suggestion. Conferences should be based upon two points, class size and geography. Allowing AD involvement would be one of the worst things that you can do. The AD's would look to their school board for guidance and with the school board being involved, you have mommy and daddy issues.
Check out the PIHL to see how this kind of a set up has worked? A school like Latrobe has played at a lower level then the size of their school district implies they should compete. They have been a AA team for years and they should have played at the AAA level. Why? They wanted to win games and banners. They did this while schools like GCC and Bishop Canevin with much smaller enrollment when compared to Latrobe, played at the same AA level. Why? Because those parents wanted their kids to be challenged and play the sport without worrying about wins and banners.

 

[jivecat]

You also would avoid many blowouts if you separated public schools from private schools as other states do, and leveled the playing field per se.

How is that leveling the playing field?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Can't disagree any more with your suggestion. Conferences should be based upon two points, class size and geography. Allowing AD involvement would be one of the worst things that you can do. The AD's would look to their school board for guidance and with the school board being involved, you have mommy and daddy issues.
Check out the PIHL to see how this kind of a set up has worked? A school like Latrobe has played at a lower level then the size of their school district implies they should compete. They have been a AA team for years and they should have played at the AAA level. Why? They wanted to win games and banners. They did this while schools like GCC and Bishop Canevin with much smaller enrollment when compared to Latrobe, played at the same AA level. Why? Because those parents wanted their kids to be challenged and play the sport without worrying about wins and banners.

I dont know much about PIHL hockey but Latrobe playing with small catholic schools makes sense to me. Now, when you do playoffs, put Latrobe in the larger classification.

Latrobe is a rural district so not as many hockey kids to pick from. Is it fair to put them against USC and Peters and Lebo? Districts that have similar enrollments but demographically have kids much more likely to play hockey.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

I dont know much about PIHL hockey but Latrobe playing with small catholic schools makes sense to me. Now, when you do playoffs, put Latrobe in the larger classification.

Latrobe is a rural district so not as many hockey kids to pick from. Is it fair to put them against USC and Peters and Lebo? Districts that have similar enrollments but demographically have kids much more likely to play hockey.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

I dont know much about PIHL hockey but Latrobe playing with small catholic schools makes sense to me. Now, when you do playoffs, put Latrobe in the larger classification.

Latrobe is a rural district so not as many hockey kids to pick from. Is it fair to put them against USC and Peters and Lebo? Districts that have similar enrollments but demographically have kids much more likely to play hockey.

Latrobe had then and continues to have now, more hockey players in their hockey organization then GCC and Bishop Canevin had added together. Latrobe is not the only school that does that. I know that Norwin (a school with similar enrollment numbers to Latrobe) plays at the Class A level because the parents that I know told me that they don't feel their players are as good as teams like Latrobe, Penn Trafford, Franklin Regional, Mars, etc... . I always laugh and tell them, should a team like the Pirates say that we know we aren't going to be very goof this year, play at a lower level, say Minor League AA level until the coaches feel they are good enough? I say, play your ganes against schools of equal size and if you suck, focus on getting better, not running away from the competition.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

You wont eliminate all blowouts but you can reduce them. And as I said, you can get blown out in the next town over. And if they eliminated classes for the regular season, you would find that strict class breakdowns dont mean very much in football. The 6A system is good for playoffs. Its really bad for the regular season. Take South Allegheny for example. The 6A system requires them to lose to Belle Vernon 60-0 and take the back roads to the most rural parts of Westmoreland County. For what? They should just be in a conference with Serra, East Allegheny, West Mifflin, EF, maybe like South Park, Brentwood, etc.

Looking at the 2023 divisions... it looks like they cleaned up at least some of the geographical silliness. I had no idea South Allegheny was 3A. I assumed they were 1A and was going to say they should be in with Clairton. But really, they should merge with Clairton. Obviously that's part of the issue with the WPIAL. You have 5 teams in your highest classification and 30 in your lowest, in part because many of those 30 districts should not exist.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Looking at the 2023 divisions... it looks like they cleaned up at least some of the geographical silliness. I had no idea South Allegheny was 3A. I assumed they were 1A and was going to say they should be in with Clairton. But really, they should merge with Clairton. Obviously that's part of the issue with the WPIAL. You have 5 teams in your highest classification and 30 in your lowest, in part because many of those 30 districts should not exist.

Well yea. SA, Clairton, Duquesne, even out to East Allegheny should be 1 5A or 6A school.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Take South Allegheny for example. The 6A system requires them to lose to Belle Vernon 60-0 and take the back roads to the most rural parts of Westmoreland County. For what? They should just be in a conference with Serra, East Allegheny, West Mifflin, EF, maybe like South Park, Brentwood, etc.

You do know that when the WPIAL polls it's coaches and AD's - 90% of them have no issue with the 6A system. The rest of the state is the same way.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Latrobe had then and continues to have now, more hockey players in their hockey organization then GCC and Bishop Canevin had added together. Latrobe is not the only school that does that. I know that Norwin (a school with similar enrollment numbers to Latrobe) plays at the Class A level because the parents that I know told me that they don't feel their players are as good as teams like Latrobe, Penn Trafford, Franklin Regional, Mars, etc... . I always laugh and tell them, should a team like the Pirates say that we know we aren't going to be very goof this year, play at a lower level, say Minor League AA level until the coaches feel they are good enough? I say, play your ganes against schools of equal size and if you suck, focus on getting better, not running away from the competition.

No. I like grouping regular seasons by competitiveness. If Norwin hockey sucks, I am fine with letting them play 1A in the regular season. But they cant participate in the 1A tournament because their potential player pool (ie enrollment) is too large. Now, lets say they go .500 in 1A, then I would allow the 1A schools to vote them in the playoffs if they wanted.

I actually like what hockey does. Again, not super familiar with it but I have noticed schools of different sizes playing together and I figured it was somewhat merit based. Sort of like promotion/relegation in soccer. If Norwin wins the 1A Championship, they would be asked to moved to 2A. If USC goes winless 2 years in a row, they would probably drop down. This is as good as it gets, really.

 

[Burgh15]

Looking at the 2023 divisions... it looks like they cleaned up at least some of the geographical silliness. I had no idea South Allegheny was 3A. I assumed they were 1A and was going to say they should be in with Clairton. But really, they should merge with Clairton. Obviously that's part of the issue with the WPIAL. You have 5 teams in your highest classification and 30 in your lowest, in part because many of those 30 districts should not exist.

The conferences were a bit off this past cycle because of how they counted vo-tech students in the school enrollment. I could be wrong, but I think that rule is going away with the next cycle, which result in schools moving up in classification.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You do know that when the WPIAL polls it's coaches and AD's - 90% of them have no issue with the 6A system. The rest of the state is the same way.

They have no issue with 6 champions. You can still have your 6 champions AND have a better regular season.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I dont know much about PIHL hockey but Latrobe playing with small catholic schools makes sense to me. Now, when you do playoffs, put Latrobe in the larger classification.

Latrobe is a rural district so not as many hockey kids to pick from. Is it fair to put them against USC and Peters and Lebo? Districts that have similar enrollments but demographically have kids much more likely to play hockey.

What rural kids don't play hockey? Ever see Canada? Minnesota?