Hill - Green to Michigan

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Regressing from what?

Oh, I don't know. Attendence maybe? Recruiting maybe? Record ( those 8 win teams where Rudolph and Chryst Recruits and a gadget offense) maybe things like that. Go ahead and keep telling yourself "Coastal, Stability, we trending up" and watch what happens when we finish 6-6 again..

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Yeah, I thought the story was that McCoy was set to go to PSU until he got into a fight during his OV with whoever the QB was at the time, and his offer got pulled after that.

Awww yes... The Pedophile spin and folk lure...Nitter. You forgot that Joe gave him super secret list of "character things to do that only Joe knows about" and McCoy didn't live up to Joe's character building things and the offer was pulled

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

According to whom?

Oh I don't know? Maybe LeSean himself maybe? Maybe people involved with McDevitt? I don't know maybe somebody like that

 

[McKee Place]

The thread has meandered so much it's hard to tell. Somehow it's now a debate on Lesean McCoy. But that's probably a good focus. McCoy is an example of the kind of guys we could get, sometimes, in the past decade. The issue then would be that we just couldn't get enough of them. Whitehead is the last one that had such cachet (and we brilliantly suspended him multiple times for nothing).

While even that wasn't enough then, we don't even get the few of those now we were getting then. Even as damaged goods, we wouldn't get a really elite guy like McCoy right out HS or prep school now. At best we now scrounge the occasional guy like Hendrix or the guy we just got from Florida, who washed out at a blue blood, but at least had once been coveted.

For high school guys it's all relentless 2 to 3 stars. And even getting that seems more difficult now. We see as our examples now, the older thread here with the case of the local (average) QB recruit, was it from Norwin, who had gotten our offer; it was his only decent offer to date, he said something like it was a "dream" for him, he'd had only MAC offers before that. Yet he didn't even jump on it and commit.

So that's regression.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

We just won the Coastal Division, so I’m not sure how that is regression. Stagnation would be a better argument.

7 losses. I mean 7 losses is 7 losses. Name me the division winners in the Pac 12 last year? Without Googling. Name me the Big 10? If we say finished 10-4 instead of 7-7, then maybe the Coastal win would be more saleable and relevant.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

3 conference play of the year kids, 1 who's been a starter in the NFL for a very long time, 1 is a 1st ballot hofer, etc.

Who were better?

I'm sure you'll mention shady. Remember, shady doesn't even sniff pitt if joepa doesn't pull his offer.

Who were better?

No. You said "impressive recruits". That is different than "best players". You can't say that Darrelle Revis was a more impressive recruit than say Lucas Nix. But he was a much better player. Two different things. "Impressive recruit" indicates a player ranking and who is recruiting them that we beat out for their services.

 

[McKee Place]

Oh, I don't know. Attendence maybe? Recruiting maybe? Record ( those 8 win teams where Rudolph and Chryst Recruits and a gadget offense) maybe things like that. Go ahead and keep telling yourself "Coastal, Stability, we trending up" and watch what happens when we finish 6-6 again..

You are right, unfortunately. It's not extreme like the 90s but it's definitely regressing. It's like the encroaching tide taking off a little more shoreline every year.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The thread has meandered so much it's hard to tell. Somehow it's now a debate on Lesean McCoy. But that's probably a good focus. McCoy is an example of the kind of guys we could get, sometimes, in the past decade. The issue then would be that we just couldn't get enough of them. Whitehead is the last one that had such cachet (and we brilliantly suspended him multiple times for nothing).

While even that wasn't enough then, we don't even get the few of those now we were getting then. Even as damaged goods, we wouldn't get a really elite guy like McCoy right out HS or prep school now. At best we now scrounge the occasional guy like Hendrix or the guy we just got from Florida, who washed out at a blue blood, but at least had once been coveted.

For high school guys it's all relentless 2 to 3 stars. And even getting that seems more difficult now. We see as our examples now, the older thread here with the case of the local (average) QB recruit, was it from Norwin, who had gotten our offer; it was his only decent offer to date, he said something like it was a "dream" for him, he'd had only MAC offers before that. Yet he didn't even jump on it and commit.

So that's regression.

Yeah........it is disheartening. I have to admit I do like what I am seeing from recruiting so far this year, the focus. But Hill-Green is another example that Pitt is a great fallback for many of these guys, but the moment someone bigger.....they're gone. Despite people on this board trying to revise history, Pitt used to win a few of these battles against the powers every once in awhile. We win none.

And guys like Whitehead, Ford, those kids big enough with offer sheets of a top tier player, they come here and struggle for many various reasons. That doesn't help.

But man, I have posted this many and many of times, I call it the Pantherlair Circle of Mediocrity. We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We can't be expected to beat out bigger programs. We will find "diamonds in the rough because Aaron Donald was only a 3 star". We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We see it almost every month of every year. It's a paradigm so strong, not sure if it is possible to break this.

 

[McKee Place]

Yeah........it is disheartening. I have to admit I do like what I am seeing from recruiting so far this year, the focus. But Hill-Green is another example that Pitt is a great fallback for many of these guys, but the moment someone bigger.....they're gone. Despite people on this board trying to revise history, Pitt used to win a few of these battles against the powers every once in awhile. We win none.

And guys like Whitehead, Ford, those kids big enough with offer sheets of a top tier player, they come here and struggle for many various reasons. That doesn't help.

But man, I have posted this many and many of times, I call it the Pantherlair Circle of Mediocrity. We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We can't be expected to beat out bigger programs. We will find "diamonds in the rough because Aaron Donald was only a 3 star". We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We see it almost every month of every year. It's a paradigm so strong, not sure if it is possible to break this.

Things are so locked in now, i think it is nearly impossible. It would take significant conscious decision from chancellor and trustee down to allow for the artificial stimuli (aka free hand by boosters); they'd never, ever do so (and most here would stiffen their butts and proclaim in righteous posts that it never should).

Yet this is the ONLY thing that would significantly boost recruiting right away to break the cycle you describe. Things like put into effect at Louisville, Arkansas, Old Miss most recently (and really only Louisville saw success and only briefly). It may not even work. Cheating is definitely necessary TO succeed (if you are chronically unsuccessful now) but it is actually no guarantee itself. In fact it will just exacerbate a likely unwinnable arms race. Other programs around us that do cheat or are already successful enough not to have to (for all but the most elite) would not stand pat. A Franklin or Harbaugh or OSUs coach (and their booster networks) would go into overdrive if faced with a new threat from us in this region. Plus our ACC peers aren't just sitting around either.

Plus, any heightened illicit effort by Pitt would be honed in on and squawked about by the media immediately. Pitt would never be able to get away with it in this era.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Things are so locked in now, i think it is nearly impossible. It would take significant conscious decision from chancellor and trustee down to allow for the artificial stimuli (aka free hand by boosters); they'd never, ever do so (and most here would stiffen their butts and proclaim in righteous posts that it never should).

Yet this is the ONLY thing that would significantly boost recruiting right away to break the cycle you describe. Things like put into effect at Louisville, Arkansas, Old Miss most recently (and really only Louisville saw success and only briefly). It may not even work. Cheating is definitely necessary TO succeed (if you are chronically unsuccessful now) but it is actually no guarantee itself. In fact it will just exacerbate a likely unwinnable arms race. Other programs around us that do cheat or are already successful enough not to have to (for all but the most elite) would not stand pat. A Franklin or Harbaugh or OSUs coach (and their booster networks) would go into overdrive if faced with a new threat from us in this region. Plus our ACC peers aren't just sitting around either.

Plus, any heightened illicit effort by Pitt would be honed in on and squawked about by the media immediately. Pitt would never be able to get away with it in this era.

Here is the thing. There is commitment from the Administration, meaning monies wise, to upgrade, salaries etc. The fact of the matter is this staff is not good at recruiting and that starts at the top. I know of personal recruiting stories first hand. No I will not disclose the stories because then trust would be betrayed and I wont do that to friends so don't even ask. Suffice to say our head coach is not a good recruiter.

 

[ThePanthers]

7 losses. I mean 7 losses is 7 losses. Name me the division winners in the Pac 12 last year? Without Googling. Name me the Big 10? If we say finished 10-4 instead of 7-7, then maybe the Coastal win would be more saleable and relevant.

Which is why we need to schedule softer ooc. So we have a better chance of getting those wins so people that just view the absolute numbers without any context will feel better.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here is the thing. There is commitment from the Administration, meaning monies wise, to upgrade, salaries etc. The fact of the matter is this staff is not good at recruiting and that starts at the top. I know of personal recruiting stories first hand. No I will not disclose the stories because then trust would be betrayed and I wont do that to friends so don't even ask. Suffice to say our head coach is not a good recruiter.

I have been saying this just based strictly on results and seeing his personality. I have no specific stories, not even hear say. But all you have to do is look at the results. I mean even when Pitt was 3-8 in the mid 90's with bad facilities, we still landed some top locals. And no offense to these guys, I hope they turn into the next Fralic, but Jake Kradel is not a "top local"

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Oh, I don't know. Attendence maybe? Recruiting maybe? Record ( those 8 win teams where Rudolph and Chryst Recruits and a gadget offense) maybe things like that. Go ahead and keep telling yourself "Coastal, Stability, we trending up" and watch what happens when we finish 6-6 again..

Well, I don't know about that. Recruiting hasn't changed for 10 years and the performance of the team hasn't changed much either. 2016 was the best team under Narduzzi mostly because he had a legit QB and an OC who knew how to take advantage of their strengths.

As far as attendance, I don't see a lot of difference. Forget about the numbers that Steve P used to report because we all know he made those up. The program has been stagnant.

 

[cashisking884]

I think this comment holds a lot of information in it and questions....

#1 I do think the team has found a lot of diamonds in the rough (2-3 star) Weaver, Dane Jackson, Jim Morrissey, Patrick Jones, Jason Pinnock, Saleem Brightwell.

#2. I agree with the OP this coaching staff has also not done a good job of closing the deal for local kids, but I do believe they have closed out on some top kids IE ...AJ davis (4 star), Whitehead (keeping him), Darrin Hall (4 star), Hamlin (4 star) and Keyshaun Camp (big get in my opinion), Mychale Salahuddin (4 star). The problem is when you look at this list there are 2 locals and 1 was already committed. If it was the other way around and we were landing local and not out of state I don't think the panic would be so high.

#3 Each year we have a had a lot of player get an opportunity to make NFL teams. So the recruiting isn't that bad or the development is good either way that's a plus for this staff.

#4. I don't want to start the on campus thing for the 10000 millionth time but that hurts us big time. But that aside the biggest problem to not landing these recruits is that we play bad football at times. We lose recruiting battles because we lose to UNC and Standford than close out 7-7 like you said...instead of going 9-5 with a big bowl game and a little number (1-25) next to our name.

#5 I do not believe Pitt could do better than HCPN right now....I actually like how he has improved the roster and more importantly the staff each year. If we could keep everything in place and find a passing game ....recruiting would get a LOT easier.

1. That’s not a lot though. If you looked at say Temple, that would probably be their hit rate with 2 to 3 star players.

3. Higher than the rate of the average P5 program?

 

[DiehardPanther]

Oh I don't know? Maybe LeSean himself maybe? Maybe people involved with McDevitt? I don't know maybe somebody like that

The coaches at McDevitt and Wanny had a good relationship. They didn’t like JoePa. PS always tries to save face by saying they backed off.

 

[DiehardPanther]

I have been saying this just based strictly on results and seeing his personality. I have no specific stories, not even hear say. But all you have to do is look at the results. I mean even when Pitt was 3-8 in the mid 90's with bad facilities, we still landed some top locals. And no offense to these guys, I hope they turn into the next Fralic, but Jake Kradel is not a "top local"

Kradel had similar, possibly even better offers than Hill-Green.

 

[DiehardPanther]

Here is the thing. There is commitment from the Administration, meaning monies wise, to upgrade, salaries etc. The fact of the matter is this staff is not good at recruiting and that starts at the top. I know of personal recruiting stories first hand. No I will not disclose the stories because then trust would be betrayed and I wont do that to friends so don't even ask. Suffice to say our head coach is not a good recruiter.

Fair enough - you don’t have to disclose any stories. Feel free to confirm or rebute this. If Narduzzi does not feel a recruit is interested, then he doesn’t spend much time on that kid. I suppose some might say due to ego and others would say why waste time. He also does not value local recruits as much as Wanny did. Thoughts?

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Fair enough - you don’t have to disclose any stories. Feel free to confirm or rebute this. If Narduzzi does not feel a recruit is interested, then he doesn’t spend much time on that kid. I suppose some might say due to ego and others would say why waste time. He also does not value local recruits as much as Wanny did. Thoughts?

You are spot on and the fact that he doesn't recruit the kids has really upset some people.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Oh I don't know? Maybe LeSean himself maybe? Maybe people involved with McDevitt? I don't know maybe somebody like that

I'm not going to get into a he-said she-said match. What I can tell you is that had not what had transpired with shady in the last 18 months prior to signing to pitt, he wasn't coming here. I can also tell you that psu spent the next few years trying to mend bridges with weachter.

With all that being said, I stand by what I said in landing

- 3 conference player of the year recipients
- 1 future 1st ballot HOFer
- 1 long time NFL starter

If you can find me 4 better recruits than that, have at it.

They all probably had less than 20 offers combined and none were above a 3 star.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I'm not going to get into a he-said she-said match. What I can tell you is that had not what had transpired with shady in the last 18 months prior to signing to pitt, he wasn't coming here. I can also tell you that psu spent the next few years trying to mend bridges with weachter.

With all that being said, I stand by what I said in landing

- 3 conference player of the year recipients
- 1 future 1st ballot HOFer
- 1 long time NFL starter

If you can find me 4 better recruits than that, have at it.

They all probably had less than 20 offers combined and none were above a 3 star.

Players. Players. They weren’t that as recruits.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Since 1995, who have been the most nationally hyped/recruited players from wpa? Of those, who has Pitt landed?

Demond Gibson
Rod Rutherford
Tyler Palko
Nate Byham
Jordan Whitehead
Dorin Dickerson
Brandon Williams
Jon Baldwin

Who am I missing?

Is there any coincidence that narduzzi recruits other places when every other coach prior to him struggled to land the most recruited athletes in wpa too?

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Players. Players. They weren’t that as recruits.

It was obvious those publications were wrong in their projections.

It's the same reason I like to get the coaches opinions and see their player rankings/priorities. They're often quite different than the national sites.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

I'm not going to get into a he-said she-said match. What I can tell you is that had not what had transpired with shady in the last 18 months prior to signing to pitt, he wasn't coming here. I can also tell you that psu spent the next few years trying to mend bridges with weachter.

With all that being said, I stand by what I said in landing

- 3 conference player of the year recipients
- 1 future 1st ballot HOFer
- 1 long time NFL starter

If you can find me 4 better recruits than that, have at it.

They all probably had less than 20 offers combined and none were above a 3 star.

Because you are dead wrong on the the McCoy issue. He was not going to Penn St period. YOU ARE FLAT OUT WRONG. Don't change your story in mid stream. PSU did try to rebuild the bridge is different then saying he was going to Penn St.

 

[cpc247]

Yeah........it is disheartening. I have to admit I do like what I am seeing from recruiting so far this year, the focus. But Hill-Green is another example that Pitt is a great fallback for many of these guys, but the moment someone bigger.....they're gone. Despite people on this board trying to revise history, Pitt used to win a few of these battles against the powers every once in awhile. We win none.

And guys like Whitehead, Ford, those kids big enough with offer sheets of a top tier player, they come here and struggle for many various reasons. That doesn't help.

But man, I have posted this many and many of times, I call it the Pantherlair Circle of Mediocrity. We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We can't be expected to beat out bigger programs. We will find "diamonds in the rough because Aaron Donald was only a 3 star". We need to recruit better. We can't recruit better until we win more games. We see it almost every month of every year. It's a paradigm so strong, not sure if it is possible to break this.

This article is genius....and I really like the "Pantherlair Circle of Mediocrity". With that said this is where game day coaching comes in and "playing to win" we have to take chances to win game and can't worry about calling a play that they commuter says will only work 44% of the time. We need creative thinking/coaching DURING games to get over the hump. I think HCPN has some of it, but his staff definitely needed upgrade from his first year here.

 

[cpc247]

Since 1995, who have been the most nationally hyped/recruited players from wpa? Of those, who has Pitt landed?

Demond Gibson
Rod Rutherford
Tyler Palko
Nate Byham
Jordan Whitehead
Dorin Dickerson
Brandon Williams
Jon Baldwin

Who am I missing?

Is there any coincidence that narduzzi recruits other places when every other coach prior to him struggled to land the most recruited athletes in wpa too?

Dorian Johnson?
Paris Ford

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Because you are dead wrong on the the McCoy issue. He was not going to Penn St period. YOU ARE FLAT OUT WRONG. Don't change your story in mid stream. PSU did try to rebuild the bridge is different then saying he was going to Penn St.

How did I change my story.

I know what I've been told by mcdevitt, Pitt, and psu coaches and you've got your story. That's fine.

Bottom line is this has nothing to do with my op.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Dorian Johnson?
Paris Ford

Good choices

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

How did I change my story.

I know what I've been told by mcdevitt, Pitt, and psu coaches and you've got your story. That's fine.

Bottom line is this has nothing to do with my op.

Interesting. You have coaching friends at PSU as well. Maybe they need to get on the same page. You said he was going to Penn St if he didn't break his leg. You are so full of S++t it's not even funny. I don't know why I don't have you on ignore.

 

[cpc247]

I know this is out of context, but recruiting is the topic so I went back and watched some highlight films (Brandon Hill) is a stud. I'm no guru, but this kid looks like he could be the best player HCPN has brought in that includes Whitehead. I probably missing something, but I'm excited to see what this kid can do in the next few years.

 

[goalieman]

Interesting. You have coaching friends at PSU as well. Maybe they need to get on the same page. You said he was going to Penn St if he didn't break his leg. You are so full of S++t it's not even funny. I don't know why I don't have you on ignore.

Here is Dave Wannstadt's take on Shady McCoy's recruitment in high school ....

See link below ....

https://www.foxsports.com/college-f...stats-injuries-bills-schedule-usc-pitt-101416

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Since 1995, who have been the most nationally hyped/recruited players from wpa? Of those, who has Pitt landed?

Demond Gibson
Rod Rutherford
Tyler Palko
Nate Byham
Jordan Whitehead
Dorin Dickerson
Brandon Williams
Jon Baldwin

Who am I missing?

Is there any coincidence that narduzzi recruits other places when every other coach prior to him struggled to land the most recruited athletes in wpa too?

I would say as follows:
Jon Baldwin
Jordan Whitehead
Paris Ford
Dorian Johnson
Rod Rutherford
Nate Byham
Tyler Palko
Lucas Nix
Brandon Williams
Jawan Walker (Erie Prep)
Tyler Boyd
Josh Lay
Tyrone Ezell
Demond Gibson
Darelle Revis
Chris Burns

This is all off the top of my head.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Here is Dave Wannstadt's take on Shady McCoy's recruitment in high school ....

See link below ....

https://www.foxsports.com/college-f...stats-injuries-bills-schedule-usc-pitt-101416

Exactly my point. He was never going to Penn State. Mr. Know all the coaches claimed he was going to Penn State if he didn't break his leg. Guys a douche..

 

[mlvnsmly]

Exactly my point. He was never going to Penn State. Mr. Know all the coaches claimed he was going to Penn State if he didn't break his leg. Guys a douche..

As far as I remember, he committed to Miami, didn't qualify, went to prep school, then signed with Pitt. I have no idea whether Penn State pulled an offer or whatever, but he definitely wasn't going anywhere straight out of high school.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Exactly my point. He was never going to Penn State. Mr. Know all the coaches claimed he was going to Penn State if he didn't break his leg. Guys a douche..

Seriously, why do you have to act this way?

You have your story, I have mine.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

As far as I remember, he committed to Miami, didn't qualify, went to prep school, then signed with Pitt. I have no idea whether Penn State pulled an offer or whatever, but he definitely wasn't going anywhere straight out of high school.

Grades were fine until he got hurt. He tried to commit but was not going to eligible, hence psu said no. JoePa was the reason he went to Milford. Bill chaplick loved Paterno. PSU did not pull his offer like so many want to believe. He had to go to prep school and on the account of paternos recommendation of Milford, he did.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Grades were fine until he got hurt. He tried to commit but was not going to eligible, hence psu said no. JoePa was the reason he went to Milford. Bill chaplick loved Paterno. PSU did not pull his offer like so many want to believe. He had to go to prep school and on the account of paternos recommendation of Milford, he did.

"LeSean McCoy was on the cover of Parade Magazine, he was the No. 1 player in the country, and he wouldn’t even talk to Pitt or Penn State. He was going to USC." But you know and were on the inside. Now your making a fool of yourself

 

[cashisking884]

I know this is out of context, but recruiting is the topic so I went back and watched some highlight films (Brandon Hill) is a stud. I'm no guru, but this kid looks like he could be the best player HCPN has brought in that includes Whitehead. I probably missing something, but I'm excited to see what this kid can do in the next few years.

Hips are a little stiff and the speed to cover the field doesn’t really jump off the tape. He’s not an explosive athlete.

Where I would love to see him is down at the line of scrimmage at either nickel, or ideally, in a new hybrid role that lots of teams are going to. He’s the kind of player you ditch your outside LB for and use as the kind of Bud Foster WHIP, or the Striker position Miami created last season that really took their defense to the next level.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

"LeSean McCoy was on the cover of Parade Magazine, he was the No. 1 player in the country, and he wouldn’t even talk to Pitt or Penn State. He was going to USC." But you know and were on the inside. Now your making a fool of yourself

Just stop. Of course Dave is going to paint the picture differently.

I wasn't on the "inside." But a few of my friends were.

 

[mlvnsmly]

"LeSean McCoy was on the cover of Parade Magazine, he was the No. 1 player in the country, and he wouldn’t even talk to Pitt or Penn State. He was going to USC." But you know and were on the inside. Now your making a fool of yourself

FWIW, LeSean McCoy was never on any Parade All American team nor was he ever the number one player in the country. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

FWIW, LeSean McCoy was never on any Parade All American team nor was he ever the number one player in the country. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.

That year various publications had him #1. Before the ankle injury or I should say top rated running back. Sorry