It looks like FSU is voting to challenge the GOR tomorrow

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Yet don’t actually have an offer from another conference

They just think they are a power

They don't have an offer because there is no guarantee they come with any media rights for a dozen years. It's silly to construe it as anything else. That Pete Thamel tweet has already been nuked by many people more in the know. They'd absolutely find a home tomorrow if not for this contractual saga with the ACC they're in.

I'm guessing they are #2 in schools not already in the BIG or SEC, behind Notre Dame.

 

[forbesfield]

Yet don’t actually have an offer from another conference

They just think they are a power

It actually would be very hilarious if the ACC were to say, fine, just go. And then have no place to go, after all.

If they leave the ACC with no guaranteed landing place, then they have absolutely no leverage for negotiations. The Big Ten has already demonstrated with Oregon, UW, and Rutgers (maybe Maryland?) that they are perfectly happy to force schools to come in at a discount if they can force it. Hell, the ACC has done the same. The SEC would surely extract maximal blood as well. They better have their ducks lined up in a row or else it will cost them dearly.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

It actually would be very hilarious if the ACC were to say, fine, just go. And then have no place to go, after all.

If they leave the ACC with no guaranteed landing place, then they have absolutely no leverage for negotiations. The Big Ten has already demonstrated with Oregon, UW, and Rutgers (maybe Maryland?) that they are perfectly happy to force schools to come in at a discount if they can force it. Hell, the ACC has done the same. The SEC would surely extract maximal blood as well. They better have their ducks lined up in a row or else it will cost them dearly.

Yeah, it's arguable what leg they would have to stand on if they were a free agent. But I think the BIG would like a presence in Florida, and I think the SEC would not like the BIG to have a presence in Florida. That right there could steer the price a bit. There really isn't much benefit, in a vacuum, to a presence in Washington or Oregon. Those guys truly had no place else to go.

 

[Gep Dawg]

FSU suing the ACC would have happened regardless of the playoff snub. The snub changed nothing other than they added it to their fanboy-derived list of grievances. This move was telegraphed to the public at their August board meeting. No one should be surprised.

I agree. I wasn’t surprised at all. I don’t think this changed what I was saying. Or even refutes it. Totally separate thing. I was just saying they year they had proved what they are complaining about just isn’t true. They can win even if their TV payout is less than an average B10 or SEC school gets annually.

I do agree I think this all being done because the fan base wants it. And the FSU Board isn’t independent enough to ignore them. They are just suing to appease the fan base because they know they won’t get out of it. And even if they do get out of it, it doesn’t make sense because they probably won’t even have a landing spot or membership that justifies the $120 million exit fee even if they retain their media rights

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Nobody is surprised, but the bowl snub played right into their hands. Had they gone to the playoffs, they'd have had less of a case to make.

The bowl snub adds nothing to their case.

It's just another excuse they can complain about publicly.

 

[curtis0620]

Nothing illegal. Shady yes. Get rid of both Disney and the villages special privileges, not just one.

The Villages does not have the same privileges as Disney.

 

[cashisking884]

I read FSU’s complaint over coffee this morning:

The stuff to invalidate the entire contract I expected this summer to be the argument if you were going to make one:

Lack of consideration for any of this since the ACC already agreed to a deal before the GOR was signed, not a liquidated damages clause but instead a penalty, and and illegal restraint on free trade.

When talking about the GOR, I’ve always thought the Exit Fee was a bad light to cast it in, because the Exit Fee was obviously nothing but a penalty, and it’s failure to properly penalize teams is what gave birth to the GOR.

FSU’s complaint leans into that as well.

They do a pretty decent job of laying out how the ACC has never even tried to calculate the potential harm.
They put the Exit Fee at amount an amount they claimed was linked to operating budget, and then increased it randomly when they didn’t think it was enough.
When that didn’t work, they adopted the GOR. FSU claims the ACC has never even attempted to do an economic calculation surrounding potential damage, so how can we know if the liquidated damages are needed?
FSU also laid out the case that the deals treat teams interchangeably. So there’s an argument that the ACC suffers no harm by FSU leaving.
They also point to the fact that the SEC doesn’t have exit fees anywhere close to this. The SEC doesn’t obviously because who the hell would leave it? But the point FSU is making is how can the ACC’s damages be north of 500 million, and the SEC’s south of 50 million?

2016 plays into FSU’s complaint a ton. Some of it strikes me as just negotiations and you signed the thing. Some of it I can see. I can’t really tell if they are trying to argue ESPN strong armed them or if the ACC lied to their members? Both kind of play into the the narrative.

The rest of their stuff is basically the Colonel and Elvis argument. That The Colonel made deals that were so bad as to relates to Elvis’ rights, that it can’t be anything but a breach of fiduciary duty. Elvis’ family eventually won, although by that point there was nothing to recover.

FSU is basically saying it’s Elvis and the ACC is The Colonel, and every move the ACC has made has been so bad, and put the ACC in such a horrible spot, that it’s impossible to find anything but a breach of duty. And as I mentioned above, they seem to be hinting at possible deliberate deceit by the ACC at times.

 

[cashisking884]

The bowl snub adds nothing to their case.

It's just another excuse they can complain about publicly.

It certainly helps add to the narrative.
Narratives don’t really win lawsuits, but they obviously matter to the people bringing them.
There’s a reason why the famous gun case was brought by a black man in DC that was entrusted by the city to carry a firearm for a living, and wasn’t brought by a doomsday redneck in southern Maryland.
Or why the birth control case was a married couple, and not some 18 year old college student that was taking them on 2 at a time.

FSU’s complaint leads with it for a reason. It does kind of frame the narrative.

 

[cashisking884]

I agree. I wasn’t surprised at all. I don’t think this changed what I was saying. Or even refutes it. Totally separate thing. I was just saying they year they had proved what they are complaining about just isn’t true. They can win even if their TV payout is less than an average B10 or SEC school gets annually.

I do agree I think this all being done because the fan base wants it. And the FSU Board isn’t independent enough to ignore them. They are just suing to appease the fan base because they know they won’t get out of it. And even if they do get out of it, it doesn’t make sense because they probably won’t even have a landing spot or membership that justifies the $120 million exit fee even if they retain their media rights

They are challenging the Exit Fee as well

 

[PittPharm2002]

They are challenging the Exit Fee as well

We signed a deal
Now we regret it
Is their argument

It’s not a winning one
The ACC can’t make them stay - but they will make it financially difficult for them - as they should .

FSU needs to make a deal with another conference to mitigate their losses, because ESPN likely helped construct the GOR , which means it’s locked tight

 

[forbesfield]

The bowl snub adds nothing to their case.

It's just another excuse they can complain about publicly.

We can agree to disagree on that. Anything that rallies the troops is good, and the media will permit this slight to give them political cover, even though this was hardly the initiating event.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Supposedly, it galvanized more of the players in their donor base. They had a faction who was strictly hellbent on moving to the SEC, and now they're more open to "anything but the ACC," which I assume just includes the SEC, BIG, or independence.

They were 100% going this route anyway. Perhaps it lead to them being able to fundraise for the lawsuit more but they were 100% going to attempt this even if they won the NC

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

We signed a deal
Now we regret it
Is their argument

It’s not a winning one
The ACC can’t make them stay - but they will make it financially difficult for them - as they should .

FSU needs to make a deal with another conference to mitigate their losses, because ESPN likely helped construct the GOR , which means it’s locked tight

Its not as simple as that. Their argument is:

We signed a deal

The contract was illegal and we were too stupid to know that

Now we are suing to get out of it

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Yeah, it's arguable what leg they would have to stand on if they were a free agent. But I think the BIG would like a presence in Florida, and I think the SEC would not like the BIG to have a presence in Florida. That right there could steer the price a bit. There really isn't much benefit, in a vacuum, to a presence in Washington or Oregon. Those guys truly had no place else to go.

They'll be in the SEC. The SEC doesn't want them but also doesn't want the B10 in Florida.

The SEC will add FSU, UNC, UVa, and a 4th. Either Miami, Duke (bball brings value), Colorado, or heck, maybe Pitt. If I am Pitt, I am offering taking no TV revenue for 20 years and telling them the university will fund the teams

 

[forbesfield]

If I am Pitt, I am offering taking no TV revenue for 20 years and telling them the university will fund the teams.

You say some pretty outrageous stuff, but this ranks right up there.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You say some pretty outrageous stuff, but this ranks right up there.

Would you rather be in the League of Leftovers or SEC with no revenue? I honestly think Pitt has a chance in a 20 or 22 team SEC. Sell them on getting a foothold in "Big Ten Country" PA/Ohio

 

[PittMan 72]

They don't have an offer because there is no guarantee they come with any media rights for a dozen years. It's silly to construe it as anything else. That Pete Thamel tweet has already been nuked by many people more in the know. They'd absolutely find a home tomorrow if not for this contractual saga with the ACC they're in.

I'm guessing they are #2 in schools not already in the BIG or SEC, behind Notre Dame.

Maybe? But the devil is ALWAYS in the details. Would FSU take a deal from the B1G like the one the B1G made with UW and Oregon?

Because those 2 agreed to accept significantly LESS in annual conference revenue until 2030-31 than ACC schools are currently getting.

FSU has ZERO leverage.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Maybe? But the devil is ALWAYS in the details. Would FSU take a deal from the B1G like the one the B1G made with UW and Oregon?

Because those 2 agreed to accept significantly LESS in annual conference revenue until 2020-31 than ACC schools are currently getting.

FSU has ZERO leverage.

View embedded media

They don't have zero leverage. There are very few value-add brands left, and they are one of them. And, as mentioned, the BIG will want to get into Florida and the SEC will want to keep them out. This isn't the Pacific Northwest we're talking about.

They also have an ACC contract to fall back on that was better than what the PAC was offered.

 

[NCPitt]

Would you rather be in the League of Leftovers or SEC with no revenue? I honestly think Pitt has a chance in a 20 or 22 team SEC. Sell them on getting a foothold in "Big Ten Country" PA/Ohio

You assume that Pitt wants to be a football school. IT’s administration and alumni likely disagree.

 

[PITT 76]

If FSU does get out, I hope the ACC schools have the fortitude to refuse to schedule them for a few years.

Good luck getting a decent schedule as an independent.

 

[PittMan 72]

They don't have zero leverage. There are very few value-add brands left, and they are one of them. And, as mentioned, the BIG will want to get into Florida and the SEC will want to keep them out. This isn't the Pacific Northwest we're talking about.

They also have an ACC contract to fall back on that was better than what the PAC was offered.

Disagree. Time will tell.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

If FSU does get out, I hope the ACC schools have the fortitude to refuse to schedule them for a few years.

Good luck getting a decent schedule as an independent.

I hear you in principal, but let's be honest - if they do figure out a relatively clean exit strategy, then it will be more like the teams left in the ACC, after all the shuffling, would be begging to play them. I believe contractual obligations were negotiated for Miami and VT (and maybe BC) to play X amount of games against Big East teams after they left for the ACC.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You assume that Pitt wants to be a football school. IT’s administration and alumni likely disagree.

You are probably right. Pitt would probably be more than happy in the Patriot League with Bucknell, Lehigh, and Lafayette.

 

[happjack]

They don't have zero leverage. There are very few value-add brands left, and they are one of them. And, as mentioned, the BIG will want to get into Florida and the SEC will want to keep them out. This isn't the Pacific Northwest we're talking about.

They also have an ACC contract to fall back on that was better than what the PAC was offered.

Florida State isn’t a brand, they’re a school who won a National Championship a decade ago, there’s tons of B1G alumni and Walmart Wolverine types in Florida, they’re pretty much already in Florida.

 

[Frabjous]

Haha good luck FSU. Litigation is a machine you enter as a cow and exit as a sausage.

 

[cashisking884]

They don't have zero leverage. There are very few value-add brands left, and they are one of them. And, as mentioned, the BIG will want to get into Florida and the SEC will want to keep them out. This isn't the Pacific Northwest we're talking about.

They also have an ACC contract to fall back on that was better than what the PAC was offered.

Yep.

 

[cashisking884]

Supposedly, it galvanized more of the players in their donor base. They had a faction who was strictly hellbent on moving to the SEC, and now they're more open to "anything but the ACC," which I assume just includes the SEC, BIG, or independence.

This is what Bud Elliot reported. The “SEC or Nothing” faction stopped resisting.

 

[PittPharm2002]

SMU boosters simply buying FSU is going to be hilarious

 

[NCPitt]

You are probably right. Pitt would probably be more than happy in the Patriot League with Bucknell, Lehigh, and Lafayette.

Why are you always such an extremist?

 

[cashisking884]

FSU needs to make a deal with another conference to mitigate their losses, because ESPN likely helped construct the GOR , which means it’s locked tight

It’s not actually language in the GOR that is being challenged. This isn’t a question of there being an ambiguous clause. FSU doesn’t really mention that in their complaint.

It’s the GOR itself.

 

[cashisking884]

Read the ACC Complaint:

ACC’s estoppel stuff is good persuasive *if* you buy into the GOR not being against public policy as a punishment provision.

I’d be interested to see what the ACC says in a direct response to FSU’s claims.

Biggest red flag for me is how much of the ACC’s complaint is dedicated to venue and jurisdiction.

FSU didn’t even care. Their civil procedure stuff is basically boiler plate, because they don’t think there anyway this case is heard in North Carolina.

ACC obviously believes the same thing, because they dedicated a huge chunk of the complaint begging the court to keep it in North Carolina.

When you dedicate that much of your complaint just to venue:

1. You know it’s a long shot your case stays where you filed it
2. You are very worried about the alternative venue.

 

[PittPharm2002]

It’s not actually language in the GOR that is being challenged. This isn’t a question of there being an ambiguous clause. FSU doesn’t really mention that in their complaint.

It’s the GOR itself.

It’s simply a nuisance lawsuit .
They can and should leave -
It’s hurt going to cost them multiple years of revenue .
The B10 will allow them to take a loan against future earnings

The SEC isn’t going to help them at all because they don’t really add value or market .

Maybe they can up their tickets

About Us | The FSU Flying High Circus

Founded in 1947 by Jack Haskin, the Florida State University "Flying High" Circus is an extra-curricular activity under the Division of Student Affairs. This program was created to integrate men and women when FSU became a co-ed institution and is still an activity for male and female students...

circus.fsu.edu

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

This is an excellent article. Written last year. Talks about the history of Grant of Rights agreements:

"So ironclad, in fact, that Big 12 legal minds developed the strategy relying on a landmark 115-year old Supreme Court case that traced its roots back to British Common Law in the 1600s. So ironclad that the Big 12 incorporated itself in Delaware, a state so business-friendly that 65% of Fortune 500 companies file their incorporation papers there."

Inside the Big 12's 'ironclad' grant of rights contract that helped keep the ACC together amid turbulence

How a seemingly unbreakable document has kept two leagues largely together during realignment

www.cbssports.com

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

That's how I feel but they are saying what you made us sign is illegal. I used this example before. If I pay you $1 million to build me a house. 500K to start and 500K when its done but we agree in the contract that if I find one mistake (from a list of hundreds of items), I dont owe the 500K balance. When I dont pay because the shower you installed is 36 inches instead of 48 inches and I dont pay the 500K balance, that isnt going to hold up in court because the contract we signed is unreasonable/illegal. That's kind of what FSU is saying.

FSU is wrong, 100%. Whenever you have to try to get out of something on some sort of a legal technicality, you know you are wrong. If I'm the ACC, I fight them every step of the way. As long as FSU remains in the ACC, I would screw them over every way possible from scheduling football games at asinine days and times to screwing their Olympic sports teams over whenever possible,
I am all about when you give your word, that means something. Giving your word or signing your name on a contract means everything to me. FSU did not have a gun to their head when they signed the contract with the ACC, so screw them. A couple of years ago when they sucked, they had no issue with the ACC agreement, now because they are doing better, they want to change things, Screw them.

 

[pittdan77]

ACC’s estoppel stuff is good persuasive *if* you buy into the GOR not being against public policy as a punishment provision.

They don't ever claim the GOR isn't valid. I think there are secondary reasons for that. They're actually claiming that their inability to invalidate it holds them to the conference, which, in conjunction with the exit fee, is a punishment. So they're trying to attach the GOR to the exit fee, in concept, because they don't want to leave and not take their TV rights with them.

Biggest red flag for me is how much of the ACC’s complaint is dedicated to venue and jurisdiction.

Don't see why this is a red flag. Both of these suits are filed at the county level. If you follow the letter of the law of the state you're operating in but someone tries to hold you to a set of rules that haven't applied you in another state, you have to fight it because standards can be applied that haven't been relevant. There are plenty of reasons why and the state actually has some interest in that as well.

 

[cashisking884]

They don't ever claim the GOR isn't valid. I think there are secondary reasons for that. They're actually claiming that their inability to invalidate it holds them to the conference, which, in conjunction with the exit fee, is a punishment. So they're trying to attach the GOR to the exit fee, in concept, because they don't want to leave and not take their TV rights with them.


Don't see why this is a red flag. Both of these suits are filed at the county level. If you follow the letter of the law of the state you're operating in but someone tries to hold you to a set of rules that haven't applied you in another state, you have to fight it because standards can be applied that haven't been relevant. There are plenty of reasons why and the state actually has some interest in that as well.

1. That is not what they are claiming.

2. It is a red flag when you dedicate that much to jurisdiction/venue. When defense counsels file motions to transfer venue against me, my response could probably fit on the Christmas card you gave your wife. It’s a section where usually, if you’re using that many words, you’re saying nothing. So the red flag to me is: why go through that mental legal masturbation?

 

[pittdan77]

1. That is not what they are claiming.

2. It is a red flag when you dedicate that much to jurisdiction/venue. When defense counsels file motions to transfer venue against me, my response could probably fit on the Christmas card you gave your wife. It’s a section where usually, if you’re using that many words, you’re saying nothing. So the red flag to me is: why go through that mental legal masturbation?

1. I'm not sure what else to take from it. You want to talk about "mental legal masturbation", there's a lot of nothing filling up the pages of FSU's suit to say "we think this isn't fair!"

2. I don't know what kind of law you practice but venue is pretty important in a corporate dispute. Remember Hertz? The ACC sort of outlined what would be necessary if this has to go to a federal court to sort out venue. So yeah, it's kind of a big deal because NC law, and a favorable judge, could complicate things for FSU pretty quickly. Honestly, I don't know how the ACC doesn't win out on venue and force FSU to sue them in NC.

 

[Joe Magarac]

Florida State isn’t a brand, they’re a school who won a National Championship a decade ago, there’s tons of B1G alumni and Walmart Wolverine types in Florida, they’re pretty much already in Florida.

TWO decades ago

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

FSU is wrong, 100%. Whenever you have to try to get out of something on some sort of a legal technicality, you know you are wrong. If I'm the ACC, I fight them every step of the way. As long as FSU remains in the ACC, I would screw them over every way possible from scheduling football games at asinine days and times to screwing their Olympic sports teams over whenever possible,
I am all about when you give your word, that means something. Giving your word or signing your name on a contract means everything to me. FSU did not have a gun to their head when they signed the contract with the ACC, so screw them. A couple of years ago when they sucked, they had no issue with the ACC agreement, now because they are doing better, they want to change things, Screw them.

Well, that is what they are trying to do. They are trying to get out of a bad contract on a legal technicality. You are correct that no one made them sign in. They could have said eff you and left the ACC before signing but they signed. Now they are saying the contract was illegal. They know the previous administration was wrong to sign it but this is their way of getting out. And laws dont really mean much in this country. If a judge likes them, they are gone.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I think we all realize that FSU is going to leave. Either within a year or 2 or close to 2036. And there will be others that leave with them. From Pitt's standpoint, our absolute best case scenario is this:

- FSU, UNC, Clem have to stay in the ACC until close to 2036.

- the Big 12 has to take a haircut on its new contract in a few years

- the ACC adds 4-8 B12 teams

When FSU and Co. leave, the ACC survives as the #3 conference with the ACC leftovers plus the best programs from the B12.