OT: Attn Tomlin apologists and Tomlin haters

[pittbb80]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention the personnel issues. It makes absolutely no sense that Jones and Porter, our best players at 2 premium positions, sat as long as they did. Similar with Pickett being the 3rd string QB all Spring/Summer and getting no reps before being randomly thrown in completely cold during an exceptionally difficult stretch of games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Tomlin is stubborn. He insists on doing it his way. We win or lose on the same dumb stuff every single week: short throws to the outside, putting LB on slot WR, toss plays to a slow RB, using the same stupid kicker every week, limited reps for talented young players in favor of obviously worse veterans. He's a guy who just doesn't have the answers anymore and the sooner we're done with him the better.

To be fair most Head coaches are stubborn and do it their way. The difference is most recognize they need great talent around them (ie OC/DC). Name the last really good OC or DC that Tomlin hired? He inherited Lebeau. The DCs since then have been abysmal.

OC He semi inherited Arians. Saw a Wiki on Arians and he was accused of being too risky LOL. I suppose Hailey was perhaps the best of the hires but that was followed by a couple of jabronis.

 

[bayardstreet]

The Steeler Way went down the drain when Tomlin let Antonio Brown stay at a hotel during training camp when every other player was at the Saint Vincent campus. Nobody should care about the achievements of a coach from 8 or 9 years ago. Look at the entire body of work from the last 3 or 4 seasons and draw your own conclusions.

There is a reason that CEO's of public traded companies only stay 10 to 12 years. There is a reason that the President of a university only stays 10 years or so. They get stale and the board decides its time for a change. No shame in that.

I still look at Tomlins coaching tree and he just doesnt produce assistants that move up the ladder carrer wise.

Its time for a new leader with a new voice.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

The Steeler Way went down the drain when Tomlin let Antonio Brown stay at a hotel during training camp when every other player was at the Saint Vincent campus. Nobody should care about the achievements of a coach from 8 or 9 years ago. Look at the entire body of work from the last 3 or 4 seasons and draw your own conclusions.

There is a reason that CEO's of public traded companies only stay 10 to 12 years. There is a reason that the President of a university only stays 10 years or so. They get stale and the board decides its time for a change. No shame in that.

I still look at Tomlins coaching tree and he just doesnt produce assistants that move up the ladder carrer wise.

Its time for a new leader with a new voice.

yep, this watered down version of the steeler organization is not your father's or grandfather's steelers, that's for sure..

the brand is tarnished to say the least..

 

[jtownknowitall]

There’s no contradiction. In this league, you’re supposed to go 8-8 and now either 9-8 or 8-9. It’s what the NFL wants…absolute parity. So being in the hunt in December isn’t some great accomplishment. It’s what you’re supposed to do. So those who put that non losing record ahead of everything are completely misguided and drawing at straws.

Playoff record should be what counts most.

What counts all depends on your agenda.

yep, this watered down version of the steeler organization is not your father's or grandfather's steelers, that's for sure..

the brand is tarnished to say the least..

The brand went 26 years between championships from 1980 to 2006. Was that my father's Steelers or my grandfather's?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

What counts all depends on your agenda.

The brand went 26 years between championships from 1980 to 2006. Was that my father's Steelers or my grandfather's?

1980 - 2006 was 43 - 17 years ago so mostly your father's..


tough question though, let me know if you have any other subtraction questions you need help with..

 

[HailtoPitt]

Tomlin has earned the chance to right the ship. Just like Narduzzi.

The Steelers absolutely need to get rid of the cancers. Can they get a second rounder each for Pickens and Johnson? They need a center, either through the draft or FA. Need a better LT, too. He sucks. I'd try to trade Pickens and Johnson and then end up with a first and 3 second rounders. Then make a trade to move up in the first and get the best WR not named Harrison Jr, who will go in the top 3.

Also, for the amount of money they spend on the defense, it really should be better. Can't let jabronie teams and QBs move the ball and score. But, the D is designed to make plays more than shutdown an offense.

 

[pittbb80]

The Steeler Way went down the drain when Tomlin let Antonio Brown stay at a hotel during training camp when every other player was at the Saint Vincent campus. Nobody should care about the achievements of a coach from 8 or 9 years ago. Look at the entire body of work from the last 3 or 4 seasons and draw your own conclusions.

There is a reason that CEO's of public traded companies only stay 10 to 12 years. There is a reason that the President of a university only stays 10 years or so. They get stale and the board decides its time for a change. No shame in that.

I still look at Tomlins coaching tree and he just doesnt produce assistants that move up the ladder carrer wise.

Its time for a new leader with a new voice.

The coaching tree issue just further confirms the point that Tomlin surrounds himself with lackies and is his Achilles heal. I think in general he’s been a good coach but his failure to surround himself with really good assistants has greatly affected his overall performance and legacy

 

[pittbb80]

Tomlin has earned the chance to right the ship. Just like Narduzzi.

The Steelers absolutely need to get rid of the cancers. Can they get a second rounder each for Pickens and Johnson? They need a center, either through the draft or FA. Need a better LT, too. He sucks. I'd try to trade Pickens and Johnson and then end up with a first and 3 second rounders. Then make a trade to move up in the first and get the best WR not named Harrison Jr, who will go in the top 3.

I don’t necessarily disagree but we’ll see if he gets it based on who he hired as OC. I’m betting it’s one of the current co coordinators

And yeah it would be great if you could get a 2 or 3 for either of the meat head WRs but I think that’s a pipe dream

 

[jtownknowitall]

1980 - 2006 was 43 - 17 years ago so mostly your father's..


tough question though, let me know if you have any other subtraction questions you need help with..

Was the brand tarnished then? The team that finally broke through and won the Super Bowl was 7-5 after 12 games. Who thought that it was a Super Bowl team at that point? The current team is 7-6.

 

[Rupart33]

Them being one of the best teams in the NFL right now has nothing to do with Andy Reid getting fired over a decade ago, though. Nor does it have anything to do with them firing Pederson. I don't view Sirianni as this huge upgrade from Pederson.

I just don't see the grass being any greener on the other side if we move on from Tomlin. I have plenty of issues with him. But I don't see us getting better with some other coach. Who are we targeting? Belichick? Harbaugh? Bieniemy? Vrabel if the Titans fire him? Another coach might have some fresh new gimmick that is good to win a couple games here and there, but it will be nothing but a gimmick and it won't deliver a Super Bowl, certainly not with the roster as it current exists.

So you are content with 9 win seasons for the foreseeable future.

I think Tomlin was phenomenal his first 4-5 years. He was a handed the keys to a Super Bowl level team and he stepped in and did a great job. But the further away from those players, coaches and systems that we get, the worse the results. And his handling of replacing BR has been about as bad as it can get. He has proven he can motivate and win with great players, but I think he has been a failure as far as building/developing a team and hiring coaches, which is going to be a primary function of the next 2-3 years.

As far as who would they get to replace him? Just look at the last two searches the Steelers have conducted. They found Cowher and Tomlin, two young guys that weren't very well known. I have my doubts if they can repeat this but would rather they try to get back to the "Standard" than staying at the new standard of non-losing seasons.

 

[PittAU]

10 years ago is a long time in sports, especially professional sports.

The Steelers are not good. The Steelers have not been very good for a decade, playoff victories is the only metric that matters.

I don’t care what Tomlin did 10, or 15, years ago.

 

[303vND]

Except Tomlin does win, even in years with his HOF QB missing games due to injury.

I'd like you to find professional coach that wins without talent. Who are the Steelers going to hire that is going to get better results? Tomlin has his warts but I don't see anyone out there that screams "immediate upgrade." There's a thread on this board about Belichick -- would you move on from Tomlin and take him?

I hate this discussion point! Did you know Tomlin before the Steelers hired him? What about Cowher, or Noll for that matter. NFL organizations pay people millions of dollars to do these evaluations and make these decisions - to assume that there is no one out there better than the current coach is nonsensical.

 

[rmf05]

He should've done more with a handful of HoF players and the crappy division he played in but I wouldn't say he's a bad coach. Too much hyperbole on both sides. He's Marty Schottenheimer if Marty had inherited a SB team.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

He's PIttsburgh's version of Marvin Lewis. that's not an insult either. did well, should have done better, could have done much worse but it was time to move on.

ironically enough, their post season stats are eerily similar.

Like RMF05 said above, too much hyperbole from both sides. not a tomlin hater or apologist, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Them being one of the best teams in the NFL right now has nothing to do with Andy Reid getting fired over a decade ago, though. Nor does it have anything to do with them firing Pederson. I don't view Sirianni as this huge upgrade from Pederson.

I just don't see the grass being any greener on the other side if we move on from Tomlin. I have plenty of issues with him. But I don't see us getting better with some other coach. Who are we targeting? Belichick? Harbaugh? Bieniemy? Vrabel if the Titans fire him? Another coach might have some fresh new gimmick that is good to win a couple games here and there, but it will be nothing but a gimmick and it won't deliver a Super Bowl, certainly not with the roster as it current exists.

The grass may not be greener. That’s always the risk you take. I’m with you on that, other than this franchise hasn’t accomplished anything in 7 years and hasn’t won 1 playoff game during that time. That’s an entire career for coaches. Heck it’s probably 2 careers, and not to win one playoff game is hard to do in todays NFL. If you whiff on the next hire…heck if you whiff on the next two, guess what you get? The same number of playoff wins as Tomlin has given them.

And if you trade him, he can help the franchise on his way out the door.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

He's PIttsburgh's version of Marvin Lewis. that's not an insult either. did well, should have done better, could have done much worse but it was time to move on.

ironically enough, their post season stats are eerily similar.

Like RMF05 said above, too much hyperbole from both sides. not a tomlin hater or apologist, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Lewis’ last 7 years were better than Tomlin’s last 7. That’s a fact.

 

[Upg bobcat]

I hate this discussion point! Did you know Tomlin before the Steelers hired him? What about Cowher, or Noll for that matter. NFL organizations pay people millions of dollars to do these evaluations and make these decisions - to assume that there is no one out there better than the current coach is nonsensical.

How much did Pitt spend to do the evaluation that got us Stallings after Dixon? Do you really trust the current Steelers ownership to pick the right guy?

I guess I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the Stallings debacle and that's why I can't get this discussion point out of my mind.

 

[303vND]

How much did Pitt spend to do the evaluation that got us Stallings after Dixon? Do you really trust the current Steelers ownership to pick the right guy?

I guess I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the Stallings debacle and that's why I can't get this discussion point out of my mind.

One has nothing to do with the other but seeing that the Steelers have had only three coaches over the last fifty plus years - all winning a Super Bowl, I have confidence they can find another good coach.

 

[pittbb80]

The grass may not be greener. That’s always the risk you take. I’m with you on that, other than this franchise hasn’t accomplished anything in 7 years and hasn’t won 1 playoff game during that time. That’s an entire career for coaches. Heck it’s probably 2 careers, and not to win one playoff game is hard to do in todays NFL. If you whiff on the next hire…heck if you whiff on the next two, guess what you get? The same number of playoff wins as Tomlin has given them.

And if you trade him, he can help the franchise on his way out the door.

The real question is it trending it a positive direction. Im not sure how you can answer confidently say its headed in the right direction. I think the acid test will be who hires as OC (much like Duz). If he hires from within which is what I suspect what will happen, then I think you'll see further decline. If he goes outside and hires a legit OC then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt.

This years draft was an improvement. With a really good OC hire and another good draft I think the ship can be righted. However there still appears to be a culture problem under Tomlin that is an issue.

Say what you want about DUzz but he gets kids to buy and and kicks the problem kids to the curb. His OC hire wasnt great but it shows that perhaps he gets it.

Capel I think discovered that talent only gets you so far if the kids are not team first players.

 

[pittbb80]

One has nothing to do with the other but seeing that the Steelers have had only three coaches over the last fifty plus years - all winning a Super Bowl, I have confidence they can find another good coach.

Its still a plum job unlike Pitt ...........sadly

 

[PittPharm2002]

Lewis’ last 7 years were better than Tomlin’s last 7. That’s a fact.

The last 4 years he’s been at ASU so. To sure about that

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Trade Tomlin for draft picks. People in the know think we could get a good return from either Washington or Carolina.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Tomlin has earned the chance to right the ship.

One could argue that he's already had that opportunity and failed. We're not a few years removed from a Super Bowl anymore. Tomlin himself will tell you what the measuring stick is. Well, he's been nowhere near it in the better part of a decade.

 

[Pitt8189]

Was the brand tarnished then? The team that finally broke through and won the Super Bowl was 7-5 after 12 games. Who thought that it was a Super Bowl team at that point? The current team is 7-6.

That team was lucky as hell, cheap shotted Carson Palmer in game 1 of the playoffs, had a miraculous tackle by Big Ben to save the Colts game, then literally had the refs hand them the Super Bowl where Ben had hilariously bad stats

 

[Pitt8189]

I would say Tomlin should just leave and let the Steelers sink, but if that were to happen these crybabies would just go back under their rocks. Like they did when the bottom fell out after Wanny and Dixon were replaced

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

That team was lucky as hell, cheap shotted Carson Palmer in game 1 of the playoffs, had a miraculous tackle by Big Ben to save the Colts game, then literally had the refs hand them the Super Bowl where Ben had hilariously bad stats

Colts game should have been over well before that. They overturned a Polamalu interception that wasn't even close, and I'm pretty sure I recall some other BS calls, too.

Isn't that the game that produced thet Joey Porter, "I know everybody wants to see Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl, but don't give them the game" sound byte?

 

[303vND]

Its still a plum job unlike Pitt ...........sadly

Very much so - you only have to be a C student but they'll pay you like you're valedictorian!

 

[Pitt8189]

Colts game should have been over well before that. They overturned a Polamalu interception that wasn't even close, and I'm pretty sure I recall some other BS calls, too.

Isn't that the game that produced thet Joey Porter, "I know everybody wants to see Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl, but don't give them the game" sound byte?

Don’t remember the Porter quote. I remember the Steelers getting a big lead, blowing it, then Bettis fumbling on the goal line to what should have resulted in the Colts game winning touchdown

 

[Pitt8189]

2005 was also the year the Steelers were able to avoid Tom Brady and Belichick in the playoffs, and faced Jake Plummer instead

 

[Fk_Pitt]

That team was lucky as hell, cheap shotted Carson Palmer in game 1 of the playoffs, had a miraculous tackle by Big Ben to save the Colts game, then literally had the refs hand them the Super Bowl where Ben had hilariously bad stats

All champions have their moments of luck. I’m not taking anything away from Tomlin. He has a Lombardi.

 

[bobfree]

Sirianni, McDaniel type guys come to mind. Then there this guy Sean Payton who has done a remarkable job at Denver this year. Guys like that can be hired. We rag on Rooney and rightfully so but the job is still one of the most attractive jobs in the country This argument that you wont find a better coach is total BS.

What's Mike Mcdaniel won? He just lost to Tennessee at home?

Payton is about the same as Tomlin.

 

[PittPharm2002]

What's Mike Mcdaniel won? He just lost to Tennessee at home?

Payton is about the same as Tomlin.

I like McDaniel but let’s be real - Tua’s the straw that stirs that drink

But you’re right-
He’s gone from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson and he’s likewise 7-6

I’m totally for a coaching change in pittsburgh . But these examples aren’t good

 

[Dan1911]

Tomlin has earned the chance to right the ship. Just like Narduzzi.

What the hell’s he been doing for the last 6-7 years?

 

[Burgh15]

I like Tomlin and think he's a good coach. He's helped create some fantastic moments for the Steelers over his tenure, but it feels like he's well past his prime here.

The first major outcry to move on from Tomlin that I can remember was following the loss to Tim Tebow in the playoffs. Basically, this group didn't feel he could take the Steelers to another championship. They were right.

This group got larger following the loss to Jacksonville at home when they blatantly looked past the Jaguars to a rematch with the Patriots. Again, it was he failed to succeed with elite talent in the postseason and wasn't going to get the Steelers to a championship.

Now we are well beyond these stages. I don't even care about having a losing season, I care that the Steelers are going on 7 years without a playoff win and only 4 seasons with a playoff win in 17 years. We are about to see a playoff win in fewer than 25% of his seasons as head coach.

Under his leadership, he has consistently had a poor coaching staff in recent years, hiring and keeping an unqualified offensive coordinator to lead the development of a first-round rookie. It's been a massive failure and has the Steelers in a really tough spot heading into Pickett's third year. He doesn't look like a long-term option, but the pathetic offensive scheme has all the QBs performing poorly.

Beyond anything else, this team isn't even fun to watch. Football is a form of entertainment and this offense has been dreadful for over 3 seasons now. Being stuck in the middle is worse than having a few down years because you have no chance to win and it's difficult to improve because of this false hope of being a contender.

I don't care if someone hires Tomlin in 5 seconds. Great, I wish him the best. I agree he could win a title with a team like Buffalo or another veteran heavy roster loaded with talent. The Steelers don't need to hire a coach who will be here 15+ years either. They need to breath some new life into the franchise and maybe a coach can come in here for 5-6 years and get results. This team is just treading water right now and they need some sort of direction.

 

[Jakey_John]

Draft Williams and give him part ownership. He and old Art can then hire Lincoln Riley.

 

[HailtoPitt]

What the hell’s he been doing for the last 6-7 years?

Had quite a few bad apples. I think he deserves the chance to fix this.

 

[Pittisit4me]

Except Tomlin does win, even in years with his HOF QB missing games due to injury.

I'd like you to find professional coach that wins without talent. Who are the Steelers going to hire that is going to get better results? Tomlin has his warts but I don't see anyone out there that screams "immediate upgrade." There's a thread on this board about Belichick -- would you move on from Tomlin and take him?

Cowher's players are long gone. He has alot to do with personnel decisions. If this team lacks talent it is partly to mostly his fault.

 

[Burgh15]

Cowher's players are long gone. He has alot to do with personnel decisions. If this team lacks talent it is partly to mostly his fault.

A couple of examples at the weakest area of the team.

Influential in taking Najee Harris or Pat Freiermuth over All-Pro center Creed Humphrey. RB and TE are the two least valuable positions on offense.

Played Kevin Dotson away from his natural position, which he admittedly struggled to adjust. He lost his starting position and they traded him. LA plays him at his natural position and he's one of the best guards in the league.

Also, Keeanu Benton has been one of the best players on the Steelers defense and he saw his snap count limited in favor of less productive players. He was finally named starter this week.

Minkah Fitzpatrick has been playing as a box safety more than centerfield limited his big play ability. For a defense that needs splash plays to succeed, they've taken this away from him.

 

[h2p_5150]

What's Mike Mcdaniel won? He just lost to Tennessee at home?

Payton is about the same as Tomlin.

Payton is having a classic Tomlin season in Denver. He doesn't trust Wilson so they just play ball control all game until the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter. That Broncos team looks just like the 2019-2023 Steelers

 

[h2p_5150]

I like McDaniel but let’s be real - Tua’s the straw that stirs that drink

But you’re right-
He’s gone from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson and he’s likewise 7-6

I’m totally for a coaching change in pittsburgh . But these examples aren’t good

Tua and McDaniel both look pretty useless whenever Tyreek Hill doesn't play