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OT: Did the Pens underachieve in the early 2010s?

What was the best Pens team of the early 2010s?

  • 2009-10

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2010-11

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • 2011-12

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • 2012-13

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • 2013-14

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5

HailToPitt725

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May 16, 2016
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(Warning: long, boring post) In case you couldn't tell, I'm going through hockey withdrawl. I've been rewatcing a lot of old games, and I've been thinking a lot about those early 2010s teams. After back-to-back Cup Final appearances, we thought that this was going to be the new norm, yet we didn't get back there until 2016. Is it fair to say that from the 2010 to 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs, the Penguins underachieved? Should they have won a Cup in any of those years? A little look...

2009-10
We were all thinking back-to-back, especially with it being the final season of the Civic Arena. It was essentially the same team as last year but with two big losses on defense in Hal Gill and Rob Scuderi. That, coupled with play into June the past two seasons, contributed to a second round playoff loss to the Canadiens. I really wanted to win that series because it would've set up a Pens-Flyers Eastern Conference Final. Could the Pens take care of business once again against what was the seventh seed? If so, how would they fare against Marian Hossa (again) and the Blackhawks?

2010-11
This was a tough season to swallow because of the potential they had. IMO, if Crosby and Malkin had stayed healthy they would've had their best center group in the Sid/Geno era (those two + Staal + Letestu, who had a career year in their absence). Regardless of that, they still finished with more wins than the season before. Gonchar left for Ottawa but was replaced by Paul Martin; This was also the year they traded for James Neal and Matt Niskanen, another great move. Of course, they found themseleves up 3-1 against Tampa Bay but couldn't seal the deal. I give them a pass for this year because of the injuries, but let's say they get past the Lightning. Could they have gone any further?

2011-12
This was the first of the five years mentioned that I really thought they underachieved. James Neal had the year of his career and Crosby returned for the playoffs, but a few lingering holes became big problems. Fleury was run into the ground in the regular season and struggled in the playoffs again while the bottom six started to drop off. Season ended in a first round exit to the Flyers, which they had no business winning. However, let's say they didn't choke game one away. Does that change the series at all?

2012-13
The first of two major choke jobs in the playoffs (three if you count the previous year) which eventually resulted in the firings of Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma. This team featured a healthy Sidney Crosby and a plethora of roster moves; gone were Staal, Talbot, and Kennedy, in were Iginla, Morrow, and Sutter. It all culminated in them earning the top seed in the Eastern Conference (IIRC, the only one of the Sid/Geno era). However, the same problems still plagued them: Fleury struggled in the postseason and for all the deadline moves they made, they still lacked depth both in their forwards and on defense. Also didn't help that they put Iginla on the wrong side. Got swept in the Conference Final to the Boston buzzsaw when many people thought that was the Pens' year to return to the Stanley Cup Final. Another series where they had no business winning, but perhaps things change if they pick up a win or too in Boston? I also don't have much confidence they would've fared any better against Chicago, though I will say I wish we got a Pens-Hawks series during this window.

2013-14
I'm not sure what to think about this team. Another great regular season and another healthy Crosby. It even seemed like they corrected some of the problems that had plagued them in the past; Fleury rebounded both in the regular season and playoffs and, IMO, their depth was slightly better than the year before on defense (Dumoulin and Maatta before he went down). However, the bottom six was still a question mark despite the Jokinen and Stempniak acquisitians paying off and the defense dealt with injuries to Maatta and Orpik (he played through it but was not the same). It all culminated in a 4-3 second round playoff loss to the eventual Eastern Conference champion New York Rangers after being up 3-1. Have to admire the Rangers playing inspired hockey following the death of St. Louis' mother, but this was absolutely a series that the Penguins should have won. Heck, they would've swept them had they won the overtime game in game one. To me, this was the biggest disappointment out of the five years. Let's say they won this series. Do they beat the Canadiens? I feel like they would. If so, how do they fare against Los Angeles in the Cup Final?

Obviously any changes to these outcomes would have ripples effects on the following seasons and maybe even the back-to-back Stanley Cup teams. For example, if they win the Cup in 2013 or 2014, do they eventually fire Shero/Bylsma and assemble that group? (No) But, which of these seaons were you most disappointed in? Which season do you think they had their best shot? Is it wrong to hold those years against them at all considering the injuries and how it eventually led to the 2016 and 2017 Cups? What say you?
 
I get your point and love a good hockey debate, however, I would argue winning back to back cups in 16, 17 makes this argument moot. Now if the pens had only the 09 cup in the Crosby malkin era, then the answer is absolutely. But if you take the pens in comparison to the rest of the league, winning 3 cups in about a decades time is elite.

I apologize if I might have hijacked the discussion away from your central argument. You have a ton of research there. I think the playoff loss that really bothered me was boston. I guess I just didnt respect that bruins team enough and neither did the pens. That playoff sweep was bad.
 
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I get your point and love a good hockey debate, however, I would argue winning back to back cups in 16, 17 makes this argument moot. Now if the pens had only the 09 cup in the Crosby malkin era, then the answer is absolutely. But if you take the pens in comparison to the rest of the league, winning 3 cups in about a decades time is elite.

I apologize if I might have hijacked the discussion away from your central argument. You have a ton of research there. I think the playoff loss that really bothered me was boston. I guess I just didnt respect that bruins team enough and neither did the pens. That playoff sweep was bad.
No doubt, and that’s pretty much how I see it. I was hung up on those years before 2016/2017 because I didn’t know if they’d ever have a better shot than that.

Also, another interesting one is if the Pens win the Cup in 08. Hossa might’ve resigned which triggers an avalanche of butterfly effects. But, in the end it’s pretty much a moot point because they won the next year.
 
No doubt, and that’s pretty much how I see it. I was hung up on those years before 2016/2017 because I didn’t know if they’d ever have a better shot than that.

Also, another interesting one is if the Pens win the Cup in 08. Hossa might’ve resigned which triggers an avalanche of butterfly effects. But, in the end it’s pretty much a moot point because they won the next year.

It's been too long, but if they sign Hossa in the offseason, who dont they have for 09? Was Kunitz in 08 or 09? I am sure cap space would have been bad.
 
It's been too long, but if they sign Hossa in the offseason, who dont they have for 09? Was Kunitz in 08 or 09? I am sure cap space would have been bad.
IIRC Kunitz was 09 because he came the year after Hossa/Duper. Most of that team is probably fine (sans maybe Fedetanko) but they might not have traded for him mid-year since Hossa and then Guerin at RW allowed Dupuis to bounce around at LW. Down the line is when I worry about salary cap. Probably don’t resign Neal and don’t have the room to sign guys like Paul Martin down the line.

But, when you step back and look at the grand scheme of things, I wouldn’t change anything. Crazy how lucky we’ve been as Pens fans. Would love to win one more with Sid/Geno but if three is all we get, it’s been an incredible run. Those guys, along with Lemieux, pretty much saved hockey in Pittsburgh
 
Agree with the ‘16-‘17 cups making things better, and if that’s all from the Crosby/Malkin era, that’s still pretty damn good.

Doesn’t take away the disgust we did feel at the time with all the crappy exits from the first half of the decade, each one just seemed to feel worse and worse. The blown series leads were frustrating, but the Flyers and Bruins exits were the most disgusting to me since I hated those teams and they played terribly. Fleury just so off and total no show from all the forwards against Boston. I voted for ‘12-‘13, remember all the excitement from those trades that just backfired. Two 2nd round picks for Crankshaft was particularly head scratching though.

Probably would have lost to Chicago anyway, the Pens have been really terrible against them for some reason (finally did beat them in a shootout in November I think after a long losing streak).
 
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Agree with the ‘16-‘17 cups making things better, and if that’s all from the Crosby/Malkin era, that’s still pretty damn good.

Doesn’t take away the disgust we did feel at the time with all the crappy exits from the first half of the decade, each one just seemed to feel worse and worse. The blown series leads were frustrating, but the Flyers and Bruins exits were the most disgusting to me since I hated those teams and they played terribly. Fleury just so off and total no show from all the forwards against Boston. I voted for ‘12-‘13, remember all the excitement from those trades that just backfired. Two 2nd round picks for Crankshaft was particularly head scratching though.

Probably would have lost to Chicago anyway, the Pens have been really terrible against them for some reason (finally did beat them in a shootout in November I think after a long losing streak).
I think I’m with you there. IMO, the 12/13 team was better but the 13/14 had the better path. Just think the former could’ve been managed better.
 
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Great thread! Obviously 2012-13. The Pens were STACKED. Loaded. It was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to win the cup. They so rolled the Senators that when Ottawa's Captain Dan Alfredsson was asked after the series was 3-1 if the Sens can make a comeback, he said "no, probably not". LOL Guys don't say that.

The reason why, I mean they made the Conference Finals, and if they say lost an epic 7 game thriller to the Bruins, well you can right it off. But they were bounced, swept everybit as embarrassingly as the Pens were last year against the Islanders.

2010? They went to back to back finals in 08 and 09, and just likely ran out of gas. But they led Montreal 3 games to 2. And well....MAF happened. He had an .840 Save Percentage in Game 6. And then in Game 7, he let in the first shot 30 seconds in, and 4 goals on the first 13 shots (.692 save percentage)....and the Pens were down 4-0 and lost 5-2. Who knows, if MAF just has a decent game in Game 6 or 7, they beat the Habs and move on to a Conference Final matchup against the Flyers. That would have been fun.

2011? Sid and Geno were out. So......But again MAF was outplayed, but that team wasn't going anywhere.

2012? The Flyers debacle? Poor defense, but again not wanting to pile on MAF, but he was so horrible. His .834% playoff save percentage was 50 points lower than the next regular goalie. Most playoff goalies save % is over .900, usually over .910. If MAF had even a below par .890 save % that series, the Pens win going away.

That is what I don't get with alot of revisionist history about Fleury. Matt Murray doesn't make a save, people hate him. His save % in 2018 playoffs was .908, and in 2019 was .906. If MAF would have had either of those in 2010 or 2012, they may have won another cup.
 
Great thread! Obviously 2012-13. The Pens were STACKED. Loaded. It was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to win the cup. They so rolled the Senators that when Ottawa's Captain Dan Alfredsson was asked after the series was 3-1 if the Sens can make a comeback, he said "no, probably not". LOL Guys don't say that.

The reason why, I mean they made the Conference Finals, and if they say lost an epic 7 game thriller to the Bruins, well you can right it off. But they were bounced, swept everybit as embarrassingly as the Pens were last year against the Islanders.

2010? They went to back to back finals in 08 and 09, and just likely ran out of gas. But they led Montreal 3 games to 2. And well....MAF happened. He had an .840 Save Percentage in Game 6. And then in Game 7, he let in the first shot 30 seconds in, and 4 goals on the first 13 shots (.692 save percentage)....and the Pens were down 4-0 and lost 5-2. Who knows, if MAF just has a decent game in Game 6 or 7, they beat the Habs and move on to a Conference Final matchup against the Flyers. That would have been fun.

2011? Sid and Geno were out. So......But again MAF was outplayed, but that team wasn't going anywhere.

2012? The Flyers debacle? Poor defense, but again not wanting to pile on MAF, but he was so horrible. His .834% playoff save percentage was 50 points lower than the next regular goalie. Most playoff goalies save % is over .900, usually over .910. If MAF had even a below par .890 save % that series, the Pens win going away.

That is what I don't get with alot of revisionist history about Fleury. Matt Murray doesn't make a save, people hate him. His save % in 2018 playoffs was .908, and in 2019 was .906. If MAF would have had either of those in 2010 or 2012, they may have won another cup.
The revision is the regular season when maf carried them team for stretches.

And the denial of Murray being less than average the last couple seasons
 
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