OT: Hockey in Arizona is over… for now

[HailToPitt725]

The NHL is facilitating a deal to sell the Coyotes to the Utah Jazz ownership group, who will relocate the team to Salt Lake City for next season.

In return, Phoenix will be awarded of the next two expansion teams, with the other likely city being Atlanta. The current owners will also retain the rights to the Coyotes brand (although Bettman will never let Meruelo come back into the fold again).

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The NHL is facilitating a deal to sell the Coyotes to the Utah Jazz ownership group, who will relocate the team to Salt Lake City for next season.

In return, Phoenix will be awarded of the next two expansion teams, with the other likely city being Atlanta. The current owners will also retain the rights to the Coyotes brand (although Bettman will never let Meruelo come back into the fold again).

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I don't understand why the NHL team wants a team in Phoenix so bad. They despise hockey. They have made it loud and clear that they dont want a team. Salt Lake City will support that team like mad. They also need to move the Panthers out of South Florida. I'm still not sure Atlanta can support a team after the last 2 failed. They so support the MLS team extremely well which I was shocked about so maybe.

If the NHL expanded to 40, I still wouldn't put a team in Phoenix. I'd go:

Quebec City
Kansas City
Omaha (maybe best sports fans in America)
Houston
Hartford
Sacramento
Wheeling
Atlanta

 

[HailToPitt725]

I don't understand why the NHL team wants a team in Phoenix so bad. They despise hockey. They have made it loud and clear that they dont want a team. Salt Lake City will support that team like mad. They also need to move the Panthers out of South Florida. I'm still not sure Atlanta can support a team after the last 2 failed. They so support the MLS team extremely well which I was shocked about so maybe.

If the NHL expanded to 40, I still wouldn't put a team in Phoenix. I'd go:

Quebec City
Kansas City
Omaha (maybe best sports fans in America)
Houston
Hartford
Sacramento
Wheeling
Atlanta

Honestly, after Arizona and Atlanta return, I wouldn’t be surprised if Austin is the next expansion team. Everyone’s saying Houston, but Austin is a booming market, they have San Antonio right down the road, and the NHL loves to go to smaller markets that don’t have an existing NBA team (Columbus instead of Cleveland, Raleigh instead of Charlotte, San Jose instead of Oakland/San Francisco, etc.). Lots of corporate sponsorship opportunities down there as well. Just some food for thought.

 

[eyebugs]

I don't understand why the NHL team wants a team in Phoenix so bad. They despise hockey. They have made it loud and clear that they dont want a team. Salt Lake City will support that team like mad. They also need to move the Panthers out of South Florida. I'm still not sure Atlanta can support a team after the last 2 failed. They so support the MLS team extremely well which I was shocked about so maybe.

If the NHL expanded to 40, I still wouldn't put a team in Phoenix. I'd go:

Quebec City
Kansas City
Omaha (maybe best sports fans in America)
Houston
Hartford
Sacramento
Wheeling
Atlanta

Omaha? Wheeling? Good lord those are two terrible suggestions.. I could certainly see the others though.

 

[nickp91]

The story of the Arizona Coyotes should be a 30 for 30 story 8 part documentary

 

[jtownknowitall]

Norfolk should be the next target for NHL expansion.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Honestly, after Arizona and Atlanta return, I wouldn’t be surprised if Austin is the next expansion team. Everyone’s saying Houston, but Austin is a booming market, they have San Antonio right down the road, and the NHL loves to go to smaller markets that don’t have an existing NBA team (Columbus instead of Cleveland, Raleigh instead of Charlotte, San Jose instead of Oakland/San Francisco, etc.). Lots of corporate sponsorship opportunities down there as well. Just some food for thought.

Little known nugget…San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while SF is the 17th largest.

I’m not refuting anything you said…just thought this little factoid could be shared here.

 

[curtis0620]

Little known nugget…San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while SF is the 17th largest.

I’m not refuting anything you said…just thought this little factoid could be shared here.

Orlando

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Omaha? Wheeling? Good lord those are two terrible suggestions.. I could certainly see the others though.

Wheeling is a booming market. They were ready to step in and host Pitt Basketball during Covid and also May Madness but the NCAA stupidly played in front of no people in March

 

[Pitt2009]

Omaha? Wheeling? Good lord those are two terrible suggestions.. I could certainly see the others though.

It’s unlikely due to metro area population, but Omaha is a good hockey market. Nebraska-Omaha ranked 4th in NCAA attendance with about 7K fans per game.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Little known nugget…San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while SF is the 17th largest.

I’m not refuting anything you said…just thought this little factoid could be shared here.

Good call out.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It’s unlikely due to metro area population, but Omaha is a good hockey market. Nebraska-Omaha ranked 4th in NCAA attendance with about 7K fans per game.

Incredible sports fans in Omaha. They'd sell out every game for 50 years in a row. However, the metro population of 967K probably isnt a big enough TV market when the NHL can have Phoenix's market even though no one watches. They average a 0.36 rating meaning 0.36% of Phoenix households watch their local broadcasts. Pittsburgh is near the top with nearly 8%.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Hockey already bombed in Atlanta. That’d be a terrible decision to place a team there again.

Austin has the space for an arena on the 130 toll where CODA and the Tesla factory is. We also want the Chiefs if there are hiccups with Arrowhead getting refurbishments.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Well remember........the NHL has wised up. They used to put these expansion cities in with the dregs of the NHL rosters. And it would take years before they were even in contention. Now, I think they weigh (especially in Vegas's case) too much in their favor and they are instantly competitive.

So perhaps hockey in Atlanta would work. I would move Florida to their though. I would look at cities like Nashville, (hello KC), cities without NBA franchises.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Good call out.

I’m not calling you out at all. I just always found it interesting that, even in the pre-internet years, say the 1980’s, that San Jose had more city residents than Frisco or Oakland. The Silicon Valley is essentially all San Jose suburbs and I’m guessing that all of the SF Bay Area, including the South Bay (Santa clara) count toward the SF market, when the South Bay is the San Jose market.

Just a weird fixation I have. Apple, Google, Etc are 15 minutes from San Jose city center and 45 minutes from SF. The 49ers play and train 8 miles from where the SJ Sharks play and 6 miles from where the Earthquakes (MLS) play and train. The commute in between is essentially the same as Oakland to the Northside. Might as well call them the San Jose 49ers. Lol

 

[Dan1911]

If the NHL expanded to 40, I’d…

…throw up

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

I’m not calling you out at all. I just always found it interesting that, even in the pre-internet years, say the 1980’s, that San Jose had more city residents than Frisco or Oakland. The Silicon Valley is essentially all San Jose suburbs and I’m guessing that all of the SF Bay Area, including the South Bay (Santa clara) count toward the SF market, when the South Bay is the San Jose market.

Just a weird fixation I have. Apple, Google, Etc are 15 minutes from San Jose city center and 45 minutes from SF. The 49ers play and train 8 miles from where the SJ Sharks play and 6 miles from where the Earthquakes (MLS) play and train. The commute in between is essentially the same as Oakland to the Northside. Might as well call them the San Jose 49ers. Lol

San Francisco the city, is one of the few large cities that have a smaller area (landwise) than Pittsburgh. It is densely populated obviously, but the city itself is small. You can put like 4 San Francisco's in a Louisville or Oklahoma City.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Little known nugget…San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while SF is the 17th largest.

I’m not refuting anything you said…just thought this little factoid could be shared here.

Yeah but what the physical size of the city?

 

[HailToPitt725]

I’m not calling you out at all. I just always found it interesting that, even in the pre-internet years, say the 1980’s, that San Jose had more city residents than Frisco or Oakland. The Silicon Valley is essentially all San Jose suburbs and I’m guessing that all of the SF Bay Area, including the South Bay (Santa clara) count toward the SF market, when the South Bay is the San Jose market.

Just a weird fixation I have. Apple, Google, Etc are 15 minutes from San Jose city center and 45 minutes from SF. The 49ers play and train 8 miles from where the SJ Sharks play and 6 miles from where the Earthquakes (MLS) play and train. The commute in between is essentially the same as Oakland to the Northside. Might as well call them the San Jose 49ers. Lol

Sorry, that was just my way of saying thanks for the correction since I called San Jose the smaller city.

Since we’re on this subject, what confused me was about ten years ago when the A’s had a tentative agreement in place to build a new stadium in San Jose but the Giants opposed the move because they claimed San Jose as theirs. In reality, the A’s would’ve actually moved further away from San Francisco. And couldn’t the A’s have claimed it just as easily? I’m unfamiliar with the dynamics of the Bay Area, but they’re fascinating as an outsider.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Hockey already bombed in Atlanta. That’d be a terrible decision to place a team there again.

Austin has the space for an arena on the 130 toll where CODA and the Tesla factory is. We also want the Chiefs if there are hiccups with Arrowhead getting refurbishments.

The NHL is going to expand to Atlanta next and it’ll be a massive success. The Flames only moved to Calgary because a Canadian bought the team with the sole intention of moving them north.

Meanwhile, the Thrashers never stood a chance with the Atlanta Spirit Group. They only bought the team because they were lumped in with the Hawks and Phillips Arena. They did everything they could to actively sabotage them and wash their hands of the franchise. Remember, the Thrashers were going to be evicted from Phillips Arena (even though ASG owned both of them) had the NHL not stepped in and facilitated a move to Winnipeg.

Give them a competent ownership group and they will do quite well there.

Edit: As for the Chiefs, they’ll either stay in Arrowhead or move over to the Kansas side of the border. They won’t be leaving the KC metro area.

 

[Upg bobcat]

Hockey already bombed in Atlanta. That’d be a terrible decision to place a team there again.

Hockey bombed in Atlanta twice! It's insane that they might try again.

Honestly, NHL needs less teams in my opinion, not more -- unless they are going to go to a relegation system and have two leagues essentially. If you have 36 or 40 or more teams, your chance of winning a Stanley Cup dwindles. The odds become really long for many cities.

 

[Phillypanther2]

Honestly, after Arizona and Atlanta return, I wouldn’t be surprised if Austin is the next expansion team. Everyone’s saying Houston, but Austin is a booming market, they have San Antonio right down the road, and the NHL loves to go to smaller markets that don’t have an existing NBA team (Columbus instead of Cleveland, Raleigh instead of Charlotte, San Jose instead of Oakland/San Francisco, etc.). Lots of corporate sponsorship opportunities down there as well. Just some food for thought.

Until recently I lived in a suburb of Austin, it’s a great area and makes sense for so many reasons, but I don’t think it can happen. The city government in Austin would make it so difficult for a franchise to build a new Arena, that a new owner wouldn’t want the hassle. It was unbelievable the hoops they made the Soccer team go through. They would probably want an NHL team to commit to spending 10’s of millions a year on affordable housing, fighting homelessness, etc. They would also have to commit to building the greenest arena in the NHL.
With the amount of people that live in Austin and the surrounding area, and the close proximity to San Antonio it makes so much sense to put an NHL or NFL team there, but it will only happen if the arena or stadium is built in the suburbs.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Sorry, that was just my way of saying thanks for the correction since I called San Jose the smaller city.

Since we’re on this subject, what confused me was about ten years ago when the A’s had a tentative agreement in place to build a new stadium in San Jose but the Giants opposed the move because they claimed San Jose as theirs. In reality, the A’s would’ve actually moved further away from San Francisco. And couldn’t the A’s have claimed it just as easily? I’m unfamiliar with the dynamics of the Bay Area, but they’re fascinating as an outsider.

I really don’t know the answer to that. I assume Santa Clara county, which is where San Jose is, has always been considered part of the Frisco metro area.

“Santa Clara County, officially the County of Santa Clara, is the sixth-most populous county in the U.S. state of California, with a population of 1,936,259, as of the 2020 census.[4] Santa Clara County and neighboring San Benito County together form the U.S. Census Bureau's San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara metropolitan statistical area, which is part of the larger San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland combined statistical area. Santa Clara is the most populous county in the San Francisco Bay Area and in Northern California. The county seat and largest city is San Jose; with about 1,000,000 residents, it is the 10th-most populous city in the United States, California's third-most populous city and the most populous city in the San Francisco Bay Area. “.

I know as a kid who spent time in San Jose, I was an A’s fan, mainly because Candlestick was too cold for baseball and I preferred driving to Oakland instead. San Jose is home to the San Jose Giants, who are a minor league affiliate of the SF Giants. Not sure if that’s part of why the Giants fought the A’s relocation.

Btw, I had to look it up because the wiki quote above had me wondering…

California’s largest cities by population
1) LA
2) a whale’s vagina (if you know you know)
3) San Jose (1,000,000)
4) San Fran
5) Fresno
6) Sacramento
7) Long Beach
8) Oakland (400k)

Based on this info, we can see why the Giants would have preferred the As move out of the Bay Area entirely.

 

[brdst11]

I really don’t know the answer to that. I assume Santa Clara county, which is where San Jose is, has always been considered part of the Frisco metro area.

“Santa Clara County, officially the County of Santa Clara, is the sixth-most populous county in the U.S. state of California, with a population of 1,936,259, as of the 2020 census.[4] Santa Clara County and neighboring San Benito County together form the U.S. Census Bureau's San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara metropolitan statistical area, which is part of the larger San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland combined statistical area. Santa Clara is the most populous county in the San Francisco Bay Area and in Northern California. The county seat and largest city is San Jose; with about 1,000,000 residents, it is the 10th-most populous city in the United States, California's third-most populous city and the most populous city in the San Francisco Bay Area. “.

I know as a kid who spent time in San Jose, I was an A’s fan, mainly because Candlestick was too cold for baseball and I preferred driving to Oakland instead. San Jose is home to the San Jose Giants, who are a minor league affiliate of the SF Giants. Not sure if that’s part of why the Giants fought the A’s relocation.

Btw, I had to look it up because the wiki quote above had me wondering…

California’s largest cities by population
1) LA
2) a whale’s vagina (if you know you know)
3) San Jose (1,000,000)
4) San Fran
5) Fresno
6) Sacramento
7) Long Beach
8) Oakland (400k)

Based on this info, we can see why the Giants would have preferred the As move out of the Bay Area entirely.

I've been to a couple of games at the San Jose arena and their downtown always just seemed kind of underdeveloped. I think that's changing although it's hard to build new housing in that area.

I went a few blocks from the arena and there were little bungalow houses, something I'm not used to seeing in a large city.

What sucks for the As is that they gave the Giants San Jose as a territory when the Giants were looking to move, only to have the Giants block the A's from going there years later.

 

[TheChair]

I really don’t know the answer to that. I assume Santa Clara county, which is where San Jose is, has always been considered part of the Frisco metro area.

“Santa Clara County, officially the County of Santa Clara, is the sixth-most populous county in the U.S. state of California, with a population of 1,936,259, as of the 2020 census.[4] Santa Clara County and neighboring San Benito County together form the U.S. Census Bureau's San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara metropolitan statistical area, which is part of the larger San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland combined statistical area. Santa Clara is the most populous county in the San Francisco Bay Area and in Northern California. The county seat and largest city is San Jose; with about 1,000,000 residents, it is the 10th-most populous city in the United States, California's third-most populous city and the most populous city in the San Francisco Bay Area. “.

I know as a kid who spent time in San Jose, I was an A’s fan, mainly because Candlestick was too cold for baseball and I preferred driving to Oakland instead. San Jose is home to the San Jose Giants, who are a minor league affiliate of the SF Giants. Not sure if that’s part of why the Giants fought the A’s relocation.

Btw, I had to look it up because the wiki quote above had me wondering…

California’s largest cities by population
1) LA
2) a whale’s vagina (if you know you know)
3) San Jose (1,000,000)
4) San Fran
5) Fresno
6) Sacramento
7) Long Beach
8) Oakland (400k)

Based on this info, we can see why the Giants would have preferred the As move out of the Bay Area entirely.

I do not think that the Giants really care about the A's. The A's have such a small fanbase though it is a very loyal one. But, the Giants have a ton of fans from Salinas/Monterrey through San Jose, the Peninsula, SF, Marin/Sonoma/Napa Counties and out to Sacramento down through the Central Valley.

The only reason that the 49ers play that south is because there was no space elsewhere and it was/is cheaper to be down there (which is a relative thing, because it is all expensive). It is still amazing that the Warriors chose Mission Bay due to the land there but modern engineering I guess.

I like San Jose a great deal and think it is closer to the California that you see on TV than anywhere else in the Bay Area. But, regardless of population it is still little brother and Silicon Valley feeds off SF more than anything else (and most of the large tech companies have SF offices, it is just once again cheaper to be down towards San Jose).

 

[Upg bobcat]

The NHL is going to expand to Atlanta next and it’ll be a massive success. The Flames only moved to Calgary because a Canadian bought the team with the sole intention of moving them north.

Meanwhile, the Thrashers never stood a chance with the Atlanta Spirit Group. They only bought the team because they were lumped in with the Hawks and Phillips Arena. They did everything they could to actively sabotage them and wash their hands of the franchise. Remember, the Thrashers were going to be evicted from Phillips Arena (even though ASG owned both of them) had the NHL not stepped in and facilitated a move to Winnipeg.

Give them a competent ownership group and they will do quite well there.

I could apply this same logic to the ownership group that sabotaged the Pipers back in the day, and argue that if a Pittsburgh pro basketball team had a competent ownership group, it could also do quite well.

 

[kma0043]

If anything the nhl should contract down to 24. The game is diluted and AHL level guys aren’t exactly great to watch

 

[HailToPitt725]

I could apply this same logic to the ownership group that sabotaged the Pipers back in the day, and argue that if a Pittsburgh pro basketball team had a competent ownership group, it could also do quite well.

The difference is that Pittsburgh is a declining market that doesn’t have the purchasing power to support another sports team. Meanwhile, Atlanta has added millions since the Thrashers left and is one of the largest markets without an NHL franchise.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Again. Are you morons stupid?? Did you read what I posted???

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

Again. Are you morons stupid?? Did you read what I posted???

Well, it’s pretty obvious.

But you have to admit, arguing about which cities should have which sports teams is quite a ways down the rabbit hole of obsessing about the frivolous.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Again. Are you morons stupid?? Did you read what I posted???

Your Florida idea isn’t a bad one but will the nhl have the balls to pull out of south Florida?

Btw, regarding the OP, hockey in Pittsburgh is over…for now.

 

[Las Panteras]

Wheeling is a booming market. They were ready to step in and host Pitt Basketball during Covid and also May Madness but the NCAA stupidly played in front of no people in March

Sufficient airport/ airline service?

Enough hotels?

Are you going to suggest flying into Pittsburgh is fine? For the NHL?

Your suggestion of Wheeling is ridiculous.

 

[dan15701]

Wheeling? You are going to put a hockey team 1 hour away from Pittsburgh in a town with a metro population of 145k where the minor league team draws 2,300 a night in 5,400 seat arena ? Hell Hershey would be a better candidate as the CSA has a population of 1.3 million and the minor league team draws 10k per game.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Sufficient airport/ airline service?

Enough hotels?

Are you going to suggest flying into Pittsburgh is fine? For the NHL?

Your suggestion of Wheeling is ridiculous.

You guys haven’t been around often enough to be in on his little inside joke regarding wheeling. No one gets it and no one thinks it’s funny. I don’t even want to think about what your responses are doing for him. At least Phil is funny. But again, I can’t imagine humor is what SMF is going for here. It’s a weird fetish.

 

[mike 301]

After last nights game looks like (playoff) Hockey is over in Pittsburgh ...
For now ...

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Sufficient airport/ airline service?

Enough hotels?

Are you going to suggest flying into Pittsburgh is fine? For the NHL?

Your suggestion of Wheeling is ridiculous.

Wheeling is ready to step up to the plate. They already have a Cabela's, Chick Fil A, and have gotten rid of the raccoon infestation problem.

 

[mike 301]

Wheeling is ready to step up to the plate. They already have a Cabela's, Chick Fil A, and have gotten rid of the raccoon infestation problem.

All that's left is getting rid of the population problem ...

 

[Upg bobcat]

The difference is that Pittsburgh is a declining market that doesn’t have the purchasing power to support another sports team. Meanwhile, Atlanta has added millions since the Thrashers left and is one of the largest markets without an NHL franchise.

That's the exact same thinking that led to Atlanta being awarded the Thrashers after the Flames flamed out. It didn't work. I'm not convinced this time will be different.

 

[HailToPitt725]

That's the exact same thinking that led to Atlanta being awarded the Thrashers after the Flames flamed out. It didn't work. I'm not convinced this time will be different.

It’ll be different because they’re going about everything much differently this time around.

Remember that the NHL tweaked its expansion rules since the last time Atlanta came into the league. Vegas and Seattle were able to immediately compete due to the talent available to them; that just wasn’t the case for the Thrashers and even the Blue Jackets and Wild in 2000. Furthermore, they’re placing the arena in Alpharetta and not downtown Atlanta, attempting to emulate the Braves’ suburban strategy while having ownership of their own arena (which was the Thrashers’ ultimate downfall).

Finally, consider that the league has a long-term partnership with TNT Sports, which is headquartered in Atlanta. Both the NHL and Warner Bros have a financial incentive to have a healthy franchise located in Atlanta. By all accounts, they are doing things much differently this time around to ensure the NHL will be a massive success there.

 

[Upg bobcat]

It’ll be different because they’re going about everything much differently this time around.

Remember that the NHL tweaked its expansion rules since the last time Atlanta came into the league. Vegas and Seattle were able to immediately compete due to the talent available to them; that just wasn’t the case for the Thrashers and even the Blue Jackets and Wild in 2000. Furthermore, they’re placing the arena in Alpharetta and not downtown Atlanta, attempting to emulate the Braves’ suburban strategy while having ownership of their own arena (which was the Thrashers’ ultimate downfall).

Finally, consider that the league has a long-term partnership with TNT Sports, which is headquartered in Atlanta. Both the NHL and Warner Bros have a financial incentive to have a healthy franchise located in Atlanta. By all accounts, they are doing things much differently this time around to ensure the NHL will be a massive success there.

Good luck. There is a lot of competition in Georgia for sports entertainment, with college football, pro football, an MLS franchise that is highly attended, MLB, NBA, and NASCAR.

Like I said, I could make an argument that a pro basketball franchise would also succeed in Pittsburgh if it is done differently this time around, too.