Not really in this one. Blueger had a goal, another one was when Letang pushed a guy into him and he no chance and the other went off dumolens skate that wasn't going in otherwise. I thought he played well.
OT: Pens
- Thread starter mike 301
- Start date
The optimist: it’s only one game, the Islanders needed to win this at home to avoid going down 3-1 heading back to Pittsburgh, the Pens still have home ice. Also the Islanders got some lucky bounces and maybe they can carry the momentum from the late SHG into game 5.
The pessimist: where the hell is the scoring from the top lines? Jake, Rust, McCann, Kapanen are on milk cartons. Sid and Geno are aging and can’t take over games on their own. Inconsistent performances from the defense/Jarry. The Islanders’ size and style of play is an issue, as is the way the series has been officiated.
They can still win this series, just have my doubts they’ll get much further if they do.
Also like you all were reminiscing about, the Islanders’ franchise has been such a serious thorn in the side.
The pessimist: where the hell is the scoring from the top lines? Jake, Rust, McCann, Kapanen are on milk cartons. Sid and Geno are aging and can’t take over games on their own. Inconsistent performances from the defense/Jarry. The Islanders’ size and style of play is an issue, as is the way the series has been officiated.
They can still win this series, just have my doubts they’ll get much further if they do.
Also like you all were reminiscing about, the Islanders’ franchise has been such a serious thorn in the side.
The top line disappearing act has become a theme since the cup years. If not for Jeff Carter, I have to wonder if we would be back to scoring a goal a game. We just have so damn much trouble scoring goals. Other than Sid, the top line just doesn't get dirty enough and when they do, the Islanders really make them pay.
That is what can happen when your head coach does not believe in protecting those players.
Players can accept only so much abuse.
Players would prefer not to have to play banged up and injured.
it does not have to be this way.
Washington, Boston and even The Islanders KNOW they can bully us.
Thoughts .....
- Islanders took it to us yesterday and we didn't respond nearly well enough.
- Too many STUPID penalties which led to two PP goals for the Islanders, have to stop that immediately !
- We weren't nearly as good managing the puck through the neutral zone nor getting it deep and consequently spent less time in the offensive zone.
- 1st line (GCR) is a mess, can't score nor control the puck, Geuntzel is being kept to the outside and overwhelmed physically, Rust looks slow/tired and can't carry the puck in nor forecheck fast enough, Crosby is trying hard and playing overall pretty well but getting little help from his line-mates but he is also missing on some opportunities where he usually scores.
- Malkin is not nearly 100%, he can't skate the way he usually does IMO ...... he is decent (not 100%) going straight ahead but not so good on his edges.
- Letang had his worst game of the series, has to get back to the way he was playing.
- Got killed on face-offs, that is an important part of the game, need to get better in Game 5.
- Jarry was the least of our problems yesterday, the first goal he was knocked off balance by Letang pushing an Islander into him at the time the shot was coming so he had little chance to make the save, 2nd goal was deflected in off Ceci's skate (the 2nd game in a row one went into our net off Ceci's skate), the 3rd goal Blueger pushed in to our net off his stick blade, 4th goal was a Grade A, high danger shot from the low slot on a pass across where Jarry had to try and go from one post to the opposite side of the crease and out, he didn't quite get there and was beaten over the glove side which is now becoming somewhat more concerning to me (but it was a very tough save, one of the tougher saves a goalie has to make) ..... Jarry needs to stay technically sound, track the puck and make quick reads with concise movement staying in proper angles and positioning, and continue to work on glove saves in practice ..... he also needs to help on the breakouts with his stick handling of the puck.
- Not sure what line changes or personnel changes we can make that will help, we'll see what Sullivan decides.
- Can't turn the puck over in our end or the neutral zone .... if you can't make a play in the neutral zone, get it deep and forecheck hard (this is one way we can be more physical on them by dishing checks out rather then taking them as physicality is a problem for us) and make them go 200' .... we have to get more shots on net from the high danger areas rather then the perimeter and if we can't then we need to get more traffic in front of their goalie for screens/deflections/rebound chances ..... and we need to stay structured especially defensively.
- One thing about Playoff hockey is that the biggest game is always the next game ..... Game #5 is crucial and should be interesting ..... let's see if the Pens have what it takes !
- Islanders took it to us yesterday and we didn't respond nearly well enough.
- Too many STUPID penalties which led to two PP goals for the Islanders, have to stop that immediately !
- We weren't nearly as good managing the puck through the neutral zone nor getting it deep and consequently spent less time in the offensive zone.
- 1st line (GCR) is a mess, can't score nor control the puck, Geuntzel is being kept to the outside and overwhelmed physically, Rust looks slow/tired and can't carry the puck in nor forecheck fast enough, Crosby is trying hard and playing overall pretty well but getting little help from his line-mates but he is also missing on some opportunities where he usually scores.
- Malkin is not nearly 100%, he can't skate the way he usually does IMO ...... he is decent (not 100%) going straight ahead but not so good on his edges.
- Letang had his worst game of the series, has to get back to the way he was playing.
- Got killed on face-offs, that is an important part of the game, need to get better in Game 5.
- Jarry was the least of our problems yesterday, the first goal he was knocked off balance by Letang pushing an Islander into him at the time the shot was coming so he had little chance to make the save, 2nd goal was deflected in off Ceci's skate (the 2nd game in a row one went into our net off Ceci's skate), the 3rd goal Blueger pushed in to our net off his stick blade, 4th goal was a Grade A, high danger shot from the low slot on a pass across where Jarry had to try and go from one post to the opposite side of the crease and out, he didn't quite get there and was beaten over the glove side which is now becoming somewhat more concerning to me (but it was a very tough save, one of the tougher saves a goalie has to make) ..... Jarry needs to stay technically sound, track the puck and make quick reads with concise movement staying in proper angles and positioning, and continue to work on glove saves in practice ..... he also needs to help on the breakouts with his stick handling of the puck.
- Not sure what line changes or personnel changes we can make that will help, we'll see what Sullivan decides.
- Can't turn the puck over in our end or the neutral zone .... if you can't make a play in the neutral zone, get it deep and forecheck hard (this is one way we can be more physical on them by dishing checks out rather then taking them as physicality is a problem for us) and make them go 200' .... we have to get more shots on net from the high danger areas rather then the perimeter and if we can't then we need to get more traffic in front of their goalie for screens/deflections/rebound chances ..... and we need to stay structured especially defensively.
- One thing about Playoff hockey is that the biggest game is always the next game ..... Game #5 is crucial and should be interesting ..... let's see if the Pens have what it takes !
Last edited:
Yeah. It is always amazing in this city when the hockey team scores 1 or 2 goals in a loss and they want to focus on goaltending. This started when Matt Murray took over the net and has continued since. Stop it!!!!!
Now focusing on Sid and his line, that is valid. Since the 1st rd in 2018, he and his mates have been fairly invisible. Alot of local hockey intelligentsia have been on Connor McDavid, but they might want to dial down the criticism. Sure, Sid made a great play the other day for saving a goal, but he is paid and going to the Hall because of his offensive feats. I can see Guentzel being moved in the offseason for someone more physical. This is the third playoffs in a row he is just pushed around and rendered into flinging weak shots on goal.
It's one loss and I expected an Islander pushback, but some of the demons of the past playoff failures have resurfaced but again most concerning is the big "guns" aren't firing at all.
I am getting tired of Sully's "respond the right way" crap. Your team is getting blitzed and bullied and your guys are taking the retaliatory penalties. The "right way" to respond is for Sully to bitch bloody hell in the media that the refs are allowing your star players to be abused and then when they try and defend themselves they are the ones being called!!!! And.....tell your players to initiate the cheap stuff. When in front of the net and being checked fall hard on Sorokin. "Hey, the Islander cross checked me into him, not my fault". Go for Cizikis or Barzal's knee like they are going after Malkin's. Let them respond. Get to the front of the net at all costs, I don't care if you have to skate over a carotid artery to do so. And keep your net clean. That's "the right way to respond". That's all the Isles understand.
To continue to do this passive crap or retaliatory stuff will get another series loss to these bastards. Eff them. I don't care in the name of Tom Wilson, dress Sam Lafferty and have him take a sprint from the center red line to the goal and not stopping. If Sorokin dies, he dies.
DeSmith is much more technically sound than Jarry. What you listed is indicative of that.
How the goal eventually went in is not the entire story. What actions.positioning of the goalie may have lead to thoseshots and misplays arising.
when a goaltender is on top of his game, his play can almost appear effortless.
Well the Pens won 2 cups that way under Sully. Let’s not over react to one game. It’s a 7 game series, tied at 2. Like the great Bob Johnson said, “you can lose 3 and still move on”.
Stealing this from someone on another message board:
Sid's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 3g, 2a, 5pts.
Geno's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 9gp, 1g, 5a, 6pts
Jake's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 2g, 3a, 5pts
Rust's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 2g, 2a, 4pts
McCann's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 9gp, 0g, 3a, 3pts
Zucker's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 3g, 0a, 3pts
Kapanen's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 15gp, 2g, 4a, 6pts
Blueger's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 8gp, 1g, 0a, 1pts
ZAR's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 1g, 2a, 3pts
Tanev's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 2g, 2a, 4pts
Not scoring enough, and the defense/goaltending hasn’t made up for it enough, thus the exits in 2019 & 2020 were as ugly as they were.
Sid's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 3g, 2a, 5pts.
Geno's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 9gp, 1g, 5a, 6pts
Jake's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 2g, 3a, 5pts
Rust's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 11gp, 2g, 2a, 4pts
McCann's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 9gp, 0g, 3a, 3pts
Zucker's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 3g, 0a, 3pts
Kapanen's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 15gp, 2g, 4a, 6pts
Blueger's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 8gp, 1g, 0a, 1pts
ZAR's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 1g, 2a, 3pts
Tanev's past 3 trips to the playoffs; 12gp, 2g, 2a, 4pts
Not scoring enough, and the defense/goaltending hasn’t made up for it enough, thus the exits in 2019 & 2020 were as ugly as they were.
That was then. Times change. Hockey is going back to a more physical style. The Pens aren't as fast as they were back then.
I would not want to play for a coach who thinks nothing should be done when the opponent is playing not just hard, but dirty.
There is only so much physical abuse players should be expected to just absorb.
Describe to me in detail the "entire story" on each of the goals scored by the Islanders in yesterdays game and what actions by Jarry caused the goals since you seem to blame Jarry for the scores and you agree with the poster who says Jarry "stinks".
Not talking about yesterday’s game specifically, but would you maintain his rebound control has been anywhere near good? Too many rebounds on a platter.
Would you agree that he has been disrupted by traffic in front to the extreme? There are things goalies can do themselves to alleviate that. I have seen it done.
Would you agree that his positioning has not been good, that he is jumping around a bit too much?
Goalies that have solid technique make the game look easy, not hard.
Last edited:
No he doesn't at all. He played pretty good yesterday. 3 goals were bs. He handles the puck pretty good to.
Jarry is solid and his puck handling is a difference maker, but as with Fleury, Murray, Barrasso and everyone other goalie and quarterback in PGH sports history there will always be yinzers who don’t get it.
Pens score 1 meaningless goal in garbage time and some of the hockey experts on this board want to discuss goaltending.
If you look at some advanced analytics during this regular season that look at rebound control of goalies (rebounds above expected and Puck freezes above expected), Jarry's numbers show that he was better at rebound control then the average NHL goalie if they would have faced the same shots Jarry faced ..... ie, Jarry's rebound control was good ....... since it's hard to interpret advanced stats in just a few playoff games (they can be skewed by one game), let me just talk about yesterday's game and rebounds on scoring plays (the four goals) ..... every goalie gives up rebounds and bad rebounds that they can't control but you try to either direct them to low danger areas or to your teammate if you can ....... on goals one and four there weren't any rebounds ...... on goal two there was a hard shot from the low right circle (to Jarry's left) and a rebound all the way out to the top of the left circle (to the goalies right) into a low danger area which is what the goalie wants to do on a rebound ..... Jarry has to come all the way to the other side of the crease and does so on a good angle, the shot comes on the ice toward the far post, it actually would have gone harmlessly wide of the net except it deflected off Ceci's skate in front of the crease into his own net and there was nothing Jarry could do to stop it .... you can't blame Jarry for that goal because of a rebound...... on the 3rd goal (PP), there was a wicked one time shot from the left face-off circle area toward the near post, Jarry was in great position, made a nice save but left a rebound at the top of the crease right on the stick of Blueger who should have cleared the puck to the corner but instead shot it into his own net ...... you can't blame Jarry for that goal either...... on all other rebounds there were no goals scored.
I don't have any stats but my impression is that Jarry has the same problems with traffic in front of the net that all goalies have ...... one problem may be that our defensemen don't clear out the front of the net very well (aren't real physical).
IMO, when Jarry is tracking the puck well and anticipating plays, his movement is quicker and more precise and his angles and positioning are good and with his size and strength it is hard to score on him .... that is what he does when he is playing his best and he does that much of the time but he sometimes is inconsistent, doesn't anticipate plays as well, gets behind in his movement and then his positioning isn't as good ...... he also isn't as good with post play (rVH) as he could be ...... he is a good goalie but relatively inexperienced at the NHL level, but with continued practice, goalie coaching, and experience he can improve and still has good upside ...... also, as JD1976 said his puck handling is a difference maker the value of which cannot be underestimated ..... he is one of the best in the league at that ...... Jarry can play better but there are several problems that the Pens are having against the Islanders in this series and goaltending is relatively far down on the list .... we'll see what happens in game 5 tomorrow.
As an aside, DeSmith is technically very sound and athletic ...... his movement and technique is quick and precise and positioning generally very good ...... I think he is a very solid goalie that over the season played well but he has flaws and is more suited to be a backup goalie ....... look at the last 6 games that he played in the regular season ...... his record was 2-4, SV% = 0.866, and GAA = 4.35.
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
I have seen goalies bitch out team mates for not keeping the front clean. I have seen goalies whack a few ankles themselves. He can’t allow himself to be run.
In the playoffs it is not unheard of to win 1-0 or 2-1. Jarry did win one 2-1.
i can tell you giving up 4 a game is not a recipe for success. A save percentage around .900 is not either.
His last six regular season games?
Not seeing a lot of difference here
Casey DeSmith Stats and News
Get all the latest stats, news, videos and more on Casey DeSmith
www.nhl.com
Tristan Jarry Stats and News
Get all the latest stats, news, videos and more on Tristan Jarry
www.nhl.com
Going by the statistics, not knowing the names, can you identify who is best suited to be a backup?
Sully has caught my ire more than enough. If the Pens flame out and they decide to keep him I am going to be furious. His play the right way garbage and building everything around speed has flamed out here. We can't score goals because we lack the physicality needed to get dirty by going to the net and screening and bumping the goalie. The Islanders do this and we are powerless to stop them.
The playoff mantra has always been initiate don't retaliate. We are so damn soft with the exception of a couple players, that we have no desire to initiate. We are just to soft to win in the playoffs. If we should beat the Islanders, the Bruins will beat the snot out of us and inevitably we will not hold up physically. You have to score goals to win, and we don't have the necessary physicality to "play the right way". In today's game there aint alot of room out there 5 on 5. You need to use force at times to create, instead we just skate around and hope to make pretty plays.
I had alot of hope coming into this post-season, but the Islanders have exposed this team as super soft. Lets face it, if you want to continue making the playoffs, then keep Sully. He has built the team for regular season success. His style has grown obsolete in the playoffs. Rust and Guentzel are the proof. They look great all season and then disappear when we need them the most.
If you recall, Jarry started the season very poorly and DeSmith took over and actually played very well while they shut Jarry down and tried to get his mechanics straightened out, once Jarry came back he started in mid-Feb to play very well and outplayed DeSmith over the remainder of the season (from mid-Feb on, Jarry's record was 23-5-2 and DeSmith 8-6-0, Jarry had a somewhat better SV% and GAA) ...... if you look at the positives and negatives with both goalies, Jarry is the number 1 goalie and DeSmith is the backup for a reason (and I like DeSmith and think he is a pretty good/very solid goalie and played overall well for us this year ...... his injury could really hurt us if Jarry goes down or plays worse and we don't have DeSmith as a backup to come in).His last six regular season games?
Not seeing a lot of difference here
Casey DeSmith Stats and News
Get all the latest stats, news, videos and more on Casey DeSmith
Tristan Jarry Stats and News
Get all the latest stats, news, videos and more on Tristan Jarry
Going by the statistics, not knowing the names, can you identify who is best suited to be a backup?
Last edited:
Their career statistics are very similar. Wins and loses may not be the best indicator.
Is the goaltending schedule tailored to the #1 goalie? Does the backup get the games we are more likely to lose?
Asking these questions without knowing the answers.
If the above is the case, the backup having identical statistics to the starter is even more impressive.
Bottom line (for me): It is my opinion that Jarry is more likely to steal a game with his performance than DeSmith. I also think Jarry is much more likely to be the main reason for a loss than DeSmith.
That is my opinion from just watching the games. If it is not yours, we can agree to disagree.
Thanks for a civil, reasonable and on topic discussion. I appreciate it.
I like Jarry, think he's a good goalie, with the potential to be great.
I do not like however the goalie coach Buckley. Every goaltender we've had under him seems to have gotten worse with the glove hand. That's a pretty glaring issue IMO.
I totally agree with you on Buckley. I don't get it, both Murray and Jarry has either regressed or plateau'd with him. And factor in MAF, look at his career since he left the Penguins and you have to think the goaltending instruction has been less than desirable.
Here's another thing......goalies are weird. Alot burst on the scene (Murray, Cam Ward, Carter Hart???) then decline. But most start reaching their best when the skaters start their decline (~27-28).
Fleury's 36
Rask is 34.
Vasilevsky is 27
Hellebuyck is 28
Varlamov is 33
Carey Price is 33
Jarry just turned 26 at the end of April. So he is a relative baby amongst goalies.
People have this weird revisionist history with Fleury. In Fleury's 11 playoff years, he had a sub .900 save percentage 6 times!!!! Even the 2009 Cup, he had a .908 save percentage which was middle of the pack. Of course the stars being stars then, scored with regularity.
So this "Jarry stinks" stuff is just crap.
We'll see this evening.
The Pens could have an answer that will put all at ease for now.
Or, they might go quietly and reinforce the notion that they are over the hill.
Boston imposed their will on Washington, and Washington is a pretty tough and dirty team.
A Pittsburgh/Boston series would most probably be tougher than the Islander's series.
It never gets easier in this quest. Valvano's famous "Survive and Advance" mantra for the Big Dance applies here.
The Pens could have an answer that will put all at ease for now.
Or, they might go quietly and reinforce the notion that they are over the hill.
Boston imposed their will on Washington, and Washington is a pretty tough and dirty team.
A Pittsburgh/Boston series would most probably be tougher than the Islander's series.
It never gets easier in this quest. Valvano's famous "Survive and Advance" mantra for the Big Dance applies here.
Yeah, the Islanders and Bruins appear to be the Pens kryptonite and expose Sully's "just play" mantra. Big problem is that Sid, Rust and Guentzel, all three are barely tall enough to ride the jack rabbit. And Sid is not as fast as he was, Guentzel was never that fast, it appears even Rust has lost a step. The only real super fast guys are Kapanen and Tanev. And Matheson on the back end. The Pens just don't have real physical guys to get to the slot, they are easy to push and keep on the perimeter.
Carter has been a pleasant surprise in that regard. Even at his age, he's fast and still plays strong.
Guentzel has been overwhelmed. Watching it you wonder what took teams so long to figure this out.
They needed one more acquisition for this run, a Hornqvist clone.
As currently constructed, they need to win low scoring games, every goal against them is huge in the playoffs because of their inability to pile in goals. I suspect that is why goaltending is magnified in the minds of so many because it is the easiest target. Giving up 3 goals isn't bad though when you're scoring 5 or 6! It is huge when you're scoring ceiling is 1 or 2.
I would replace Guentzel on the PP now with Carter. Carter is much bigger, he has been hot, he is RH, he is good on draws and Jake is just getting pushed around.
They could use a Hornquist type, but I also remember the last two series where they were 1-7 and barely scored, that Hornquist was in that lineup. 87 and 71 need to step it up. I am sorry. 71 gets criticized, but it is also worthy to criticize 87 for his lack of production. He needs to finish.
87 has had 2 maybe 3 prime scoring chances that he didn't convert. The last one, the puck was rolling on edge, he tried to settle it, but it didn't cooperate. He had another where he was alone controlling the puck right on the doorstep. The goalie made a great play, and Sid didn't get the puck elevated.
The Islanders have figured out to stop 87 you neuter his linemates. They have put out the perfect line to do that. In 2 of the next 3 games, Sullivan has the last line change. He has to channel his inner Scotty Bowman and strategize around this.
72 is playing at about 1/2 to 3/4 strength. He can't play his game to the max.
In Sully's game, you play clean and get on the PP. This series that hasn't meant much and it is a key part of the Pens potential success. That, and the refs are ignoring the Islander's goonery and rewarding them for it by penalizing the Penguins for fighting back.
The key to beating NY and all other "system" teams, is to get a lead on them. When you play from in front, they have to scramble to catch up, and their system falls apart and they make mistakes. In those situations, the Pens talent and speed really shows up. The first goal is always big, but in this series it is HUGE! It changes the entire dynamic of the game.
This is why I say that Sid needs to shoot more and pass less. Take the puck to the net, hopefully draw some penalties. He looks to pass first and if his teammates aren't doing anything, it is a waste. I mean somehow Guentzel was credited with 6 shots on goal in Game 4. Does anyone remember ANY of them? I sure don't, they were weak flails on goal from the perimeter.
