OT - PENS ........

[goalieman]

Again, I know we have goalies on here and for some reason since Fleury was left unprotected in the expansion draft Penguins fans have this weird obsession with the play of the goaltender and tend to be blind to everything else surrounding them. If the criticism of Jarry is everytime it becomes crunch time, he comes off small, I can't disagree. Not even just in a game, but we have seen him have All Star level seasons then the race for the playoffs happens and he wilts. Obviously that is a problem. It is probably why the Pens should never have offered him such a deal, not just salary but term.

But as I mentioned above, the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Kings and Bruins all who have had alot of success over the past 20 years crashed and burned. The Pens have put it off. I will use another analogy and this involves the Penguins themselves. Mario Lemieux's 1st season was 84-85. 20 years later, Sid came along. Sid is now in his what, 18th year and is 37 years old. When Mario returned in 2000 as a 35 year old, he came in and immediately dominated. But of course, he's Mario Lemieux, the single most physically gifted hockey player in history. Here's the difference between Mario coming back and that team going to the Conference Finals vs Sid the past few seasons. Mario had a Jagr in his prime. Jagr might be one of the 10 best players of all time. Also a Kovalev, a Straka, a Lang all in their primes. Sid's core are all his age or older. It is a long winded way of trying to say......there is nothing in this team's tank. They haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2012. They have very few 1st rd picks. The well is dry and it needs refilled.

I think we are basically in agreement ...... the team is overall bad in most all ways (offensively, especially defensively, and goaltending wise), how we got here has extensively been discussed previously ....... I've often said that in recent years the top teams that seem to go the farthest in the playoffs are the ones that have the best combination of talent, speed, structure, physicality, and goaltending ...... the Pens are lacking in all these categories compared to about 80-90% of the teams in the league ...... a rebuild is needed and barring some miracle is likely to be long and painful ..... the Pens have been very fortunate to have so many great players over the years but we are where we are now.

I also agree that some fans blame goalies for just about everything ...... one of several reasons that I have posted for 22+ years in hockey threads on the "lair" is to try and give people a greater understanding of what goaltending involves/is about and a better understanding of how to evaluate their performance ..... hopefully in some small way I have helped in that regard.

Again, I don't blame the Pens goalies for the teams failure so far this season, it's the entire team ....... that being said, it is reasonable to evaluate how the goalies are doing separate from the rest of the team playing in front of them and how they are contributing to the teams success or failure ........ Do you think Jarry is playing like an All-Star this season ? Do you think Jarry is even playing like an average goalie ? ...... I mean they had to totally shut him down for 7-10 days to work exclusively with the goalie coaches separate from the rest of the team and then sent him for 2 weeks to WBS to try and reinvent his game because he had become unplayable ..... since he has returned , his play has improved a little ...... I was actually encouraged on how great he played for 45 minutes against Tampa Bay but the last 15 minutes of regulation and the OT not so much ...... he absolutely kept us in the game until he didn't and it's OK to verbalize that and yet realize that it was the team that lost the game not the goalie alone ....... I tried to explain what he could have done better when I analyzed the goals he gave up in a comprehensive way but that doesn't mean I blame hime for the loss.

 

[pittbb80]

Again, I know we have goalies on here and for some reason since Fleury was left unprotected in the expansion draft Penguins fans have this weird obsession with the play of the goaltender and tend to be blind to everything else surrounding them. If the criticism of Jarry is everytime it becomes crunch time, he comes off small, I can't disagree. Not even just in a game, but we have seen him have All Star level seasons then the race for the playoffs happens and he wilts. Obviously that is a problem. It is probably why the Pens should never have offered him such a deal, not just salary but term.

But as I mentioned above, the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Kings and Bruins all who have had alot of success over the past 20 years crashed and burned. The Pens have put it off. I will use another analogy and this involves the Penguins themselves. Mario Lemieux's 1st season was 84-85. 20 years later, Sid came along. Sid is now in his what, 18th year and is 37 years old. When Mario returned in 2000 as a 35 year old, he came in and immediately dominated. But of course, he's Mario Lemieux, the single most physically gifted hockey player in history. Here's the difference between Mario coming back and that team going to the Conference Finals vs Sid the past few seasons. Mario had a Jagr in his prime. Jagr might be one of the 10 best players of all time. Also a Kovalev, a Straka, a Lang all in their primes. Sid's core are all his age or older. It is a long winded way of trying to say......there is nothing in this team's tank. They haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2012. They have very few 1st rd picks. The well is dry and it needs refilled.

Which is why Im in favor of shopping Sid and every player worth a six pack. If you're going to blow it all up need to get some assets in return to speed up the rebuild.

 

[pittbb80]

I think we are basically in agreement ...... the team is overall bad in most all ways (offensively, especially defensively, and goaltending wise), how we got here has extensively been discussed previously ....... I've often said that in recent years the top teams that seem to go the farthest in the playoffs are the ones that have the best combination of talent, speed, structure, physicality, and goaltending ...... the Pens are lacking in all these categories compared to about 80-90% of the teams in the league ...... a rebuild is needed and barring some miracle is likely to be long and painful ..... the Pens have been very fortunate to have so many great players over the years but we are where we are now.

I also agree that some fans blame goalies for just about everything ...... one of several reasons that I have posted for 22+ years in hockey threads on the "lair" is to try and give people a greater understanding of what goaltending involves/is about and a better understanding of how to evaluate their performance ..... hopefully in some small way I have helped in that regard.

Again, I don't blame the Pens goalies for the teams failure so far this season, it's the entire team ....... that being said, it is reasonable to evaluate how the goalies are doing separate from the rest of the team playing in front of them and how they are contributing to the teams success or failure ........ Do you think Jarry is playing like an All-Star this season ? Do you think Jarry is even playing like an average goalie ? ...... I mean they had to totally shut him down for 7-10 days to work exclusively with the goalie coaches separate from the rest of the team and then sent him for 2 weeks to WBS to try and reinvent his game because he had become unplayable ..... since he has returned , his play has improved a little ...... I was actually encouraged on how great he played for 45 minutes against Tampa Bay but the last 15 minutes of regulation and the OT not so much ...... he absolutely kept us in the game until he didn't and it's OK to verbalize that and yet realize that it was the team that lost the game not the goalie alone ....... I tried to explain what he could have done better when I analyzed the goals he gave up in a comprehensive way but that doesn't mean I blame hime for the loss.

Really enjoy you're insights as well as Kiwi's.

Ill ask it again, it Jarry's problem between the ears or coaching or a combination of both? He has talent for sure but it seems like he wilts in critical situations. Not sure thats coaching or you can fix that. But yeah hes probably down the list of the Pens problems.

The real problem is that the organIzation and much of the fan base evaluated the talent based on how good the stars USED to be and NOT how good they are NOW. As mentioned, its a problem many teams face and fail to address. Hanging on to stars way past their prime and not getting any value in return. The Steelers did that with the 70's team so its not just Hockey its all sports.