OT - PENS ........

[goalieman]

Again, I know we have goalies on here and for some reason since Fleury was left unprotected in the expansion draft Penguins fans have this weird obsession with the play of the goaltender and tend to be blind to everything else surrounding them. If the criticism of Jarry is everytime it becomes crunch time, he comes off small, I can't disagree. Not even just in a game, but we have seen him have All Star level seasons then the race for the playoffs happens and he wilts. Obviously that is a problem. It is probably why the Pens should never have offered him such a deal, not just salary but term.

But as I mentioned above, the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Kings and Bruins all who have had alot of success over the past 20 years crashed and burned. The Pens have put it off. I will use another analogy and this involves the Penguins themselves. Mario Lemieux's 1st season was 84-85. 20 years later, Sid came along. Sid is now in his what, 18th year and is 37 years old. When Mario returned in 2000 as a 35 year old, he came in and immediately dominated. But of course, he's Mario Lemieux, the single most physically gifted hockey player in history. Here's the difference between Mario coming back and that team going to the Conference Finals vs Sid the past few seasons. Mario had a Jagr in his prime. Jagr might be one of the 10 best players of all time. Also a Kovalev, a Straka, a Lang all in their primes. Sid's core are all his age or older. It is a long winded way of trying to say......there is nothing in this team's tank. They haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2012. They have very few 1st rd picks. The well is dry and it needs refilled.

I think we are basically in agreement ...... the team is overall bad in most all ways (offensively, especially defensively, and goaltending wise), how we got here has extensively been discussed previously ....... I've often said that in recent years the top teams that seem to go the farthest in the playoffs are the ones that have the best combination of talent, speed, structure, physicality, and goaltending ...... the Pens are lacking in all these categories compared to about 80-90% of the teams in the league ...... a rebuild is needed and barring some miracle is likely to be long and painful ..... the Pens have been very fortunate to have so many great players over the years but we are where we are now.

I also agree that some fans blame goalies for just about everything ...... one of several reasons that I have posted for 22+ years in hockey threads on the "lair" is to try and give people a greater understanding of what goaltending involves/is about and a better understanding of how to evaluate their performance ..... hopefully in some small way I have helped in that regard.

Again, I don't blame the Pens goalies for the teams failure so far this season, it's the entire team ....... that being said, it is reasonable to evaluate how the goalies are doing separate from the rest of the team playing in front of them and how they are contributing to the teams success or failure ........ Do you think Jarry is playing like an All-Star this season ? Do you think Jarry is even playing like an average goalie ? ...... I mean they had to totally shut him down for 7-10 days to work exclusively with the goalie coaches separate from the rest of the team and then sent him for 2 weeks to WBS to try and reinvent his game because he had become unplayable ..... since he has returned , his play has improved a little ...... I was actually encouraged on how great he played for 45 minutes against Tampa Bay but the last 15 minutes of regulation and the OT not so much ...... he absolutely kept us in the game until he didn't and it's OK to verbalize that and yet realize that it was the team that lost the game not the goalie alone ....... I tried to explain what he could have done better when I analyzed the goals he gave up in a comprehensive way but that doesn't mean I blame hime for the loss.

 

[pittbb80]

Again, I know we have goalies on here and for some reason since Fleury was left unprotected in the expansion draft Penguins fans have this weird obsession with the play of the goaltender and tend to be blind to everything else surrounding them. If the criticism of Jarry is everytime it becomes crunch time, he comes off small, I can't disagree. Not even just in a game, but we have seen him have All Star level seasons then the race for the playoffs happens and he wilts. Obviously that is a problem. It is probably why the Pens should never have offered him such a deal, not just salary but term.

But as I mentioned above, the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Kings and Bruins all who have had alot of success over the past 20 years crashed and burned. The Pens have put it off. I will use another analogy and this involves the Penguins themselves. Mario Lemieux's 1st season was 84-85. 20 years later, Sid came along. Sid is now in his what, 18th year and is 37 years old. When Mario returned in 2000 as a 35 year old, he came in and immediately dominated. But of course, he's Mario Lemieux, the single most physically gifted hockey player in history. Here's the difference between Mario coming back and that team going to the Conference Finals vs Sid the past few seasons. Mario had a Jagr in his prime. Jagr might be one of the 10 best players of all time. Also a Kovalev, a Straka, a Lang all in their primes. Sid's core are all his age or older. It is a long winded way of trying to say......there is nothing in this team's tank. They haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2012. They have very few 1st rd picks. The well is dry and it needs refilled.

Which is why Im in favor of shopping Sid and every player worth a six pack. If you're going to blow it all up need to get some assets in return to speed up the rebuild.

 

[pittbb80]

I think we are basically in agreement ...... the team is overall bad in most all ways (offensively, especially defensively, and goaltending wise), how we got here has extensively been discussed previously ....... I've often said that in recent years the top teams that seem to go the farthest in the playoffs are the ones that have the best combination of talent, speed, structure, physicality, and goaltending ...... the Pens are lacking in all these categories compared to about 80-90% of the teams in the league ...... a rebuild is needed and barring some miracle is likely to be long and painful ..... the Pens have been very fortunate to have so many great players over the years but we are where we are now.

I also agree that some fans blame goalies for just about everything ...... one of several reasons that I have posted for 22+ years in hockey threads on the "lair" is to try and give people a greater understanding of what goaltending involves/is about and a better understanding of how to evaluate their performance ..... hopefully in some small way I have helped in that regard.

Again, I don't blame the Pens goalies for the teams failure so far this season, it's the entire team ....... that being said, it is reasonable to evaluate how the goalies are doing separate from the rest of the team playing in front of them and how they are contributing to the teams success or failure ........ Do you think Jarry is playing like an All-Star this season ? Do you think Jarry is even playing like an average goalie ? ...... I mean they had to totally shut him down for 7-10 days to work exclusively with the goalie coaches separate from the rest of the team and then sent him for 2 weeks to WBS to try and reinvent his game because he had become unplayable ..... since he has returned , his play has improved a little ...... I was actually encouraged on how great he played for 45 minutes against Tampa Bay but the last 15 minutes of regulation and the OT not so much ...... he absolutely kept us in the game until he didn't and it's OK to verbalize that and yet realize that it was the team that lost the game not the goalie alone ....... I tried to explain what he could have done better when I analyzed the goals he gave up in a comprehensive way but that doesn't mean I blame hime for the loss.

Really enjoy you're insights as well as Kiwi's.

Ill ask it again, it Jarry's problem between the ears or coaching or a combination of both? He has talent for sure but it seems like he wilts in critical situations. Not sure thats coaching or you can fix that. But yeah hes probably down the list of the Pens problems.

The real problem is that the organIzation and much of the fan base evaluated the talent based on how good the stars USED to be and NOT how good they are NOW. As mentioned, its a problem many teams face and fail to address. Hanging on to stars way past their prime and not getting any value in return. The Steelers did that with the 70's team so its not just Hockey its all sports.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Really enjoy you're insights as well as Kiwi's.

Ill ask it again, it Jarry's problem between the ears or coaching or a combination of both? He has talent for sure but it seems like he wilts in critical situations. Not sure thats coaching or you can fix that. But yeah hes probably down the list of the Pens problems.

The real problem is that the organIzation and much of the fan base evaluated the talent based on how good the stars USED to be and NOT how good they are NOW. As mentioned, its a problem many teams face and fail to address. Hanging on to stars way past their prime and not getting any value in return. The Steelers did that with the 70's team so its not just Hockey its all sports.

You know......I have been at this thing for a long time (watching hockey with some degree of comprehension what I am watching). Goalies in many cases are like relief pitchers. Many are flash in the pans, most have short expiration dates. Very few are Mariano Riveria or Lee Smith, guys with staying power like a Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy or Hasek. Even Marc Andre Fleury, who will be in the HOF, I mean he had a span of 2010-2015 where he was outplayed by the opposing goalie in the playoffs.

I will name some names. Richard Brodeur. Mike Palmateer. Jim Carey (not that one). The Moose! Kelly Hrudey. Glenn Healey. Bill Ranford. Andy Moog. On and on and on. Matt Murray may well have had the best back to back Stanley Cup finals of any goalie in history. What happened?

I think goaltending like relief pitching is a big confidence thing. But I also think guys often get figured out. Boston's Jeremy Swaymen maybe the next Murray or Jarry. It is why it is rare for goalie's to be a 1st rd pick just like it is rare for relief pitchers being a 1st rd pick.

 

[PittPharm2002]

You know......I have been at this thing for a long time (watching hockey with some degree of comprehension what I am watching). Goalies in many cases are like relief pitchers. Many are flash in the pans, most have short expiration dates. Very few are Mariano Riveria or Lee Smith, guys with staying power like a Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy or Hasek. Even Marc Andre Fleury, who will be in the HOF, I mean he had a span of 2010-2015 where he was outplayed by the opposing goalie in the playoffs.

I will name some names. Richard Brodeur. Mike Palmateer. Jim Carey (not that one). The Moose! Kelly Hrudey. Glenn Healey. Bill Ranford. Andy Moog. On and on and on. Matt Murray may well have had the best back to back Stanley Cup finals of any goalie in history. What happened?

I think goaltending like relief pitching is a big confidence thing. But I also think guys often get figured out. Boston's Jeremy Swaymen maybe the next Murray or Jarry. It is why it is rare for goalie's to be a 1st rd pick just like it is rare for relief pitchers being a 1st rd pick.

It’s a high wire act without a net, no pun intended .
The league is so much faster and talented now- the era of a dominant starting goalie is probably gone .

I mean Fleury is going to the HOF and he’d have melt downs in the playoffs .

 

[Demolition Man]

Even more concerning is Rutger McGroarty's stats in Scranton. 1 goal in 11 games.

Skating, scoring, whatever, Brayden Yager is the better NHL prospect.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Even more concerning is Rutger McGroarty's stats in Scranton. 1 goal in 11 games.

Skating, scoring, whatever, Brayden Yager is the better NHL prospect.

Yeah didn't like that trade when it happened, like it less now.

 

[pittbb80]

Yeah didn't like that trade when it happened, like it less now.

Starting to get concerned about Dubas. Is there one positive move he’s made ?

 

[goalieman]

Really enjoy you're insights as well as Kiwi's.

Ill ask it again, it Jarry's problem between the ears or coaching or a combination of both? He has talent for sure but it seems like he wilts in critical situations. Not sure thats coaching or you can fix that. But yeah hes probably down the list of the Pens problems.

The real problem is that the organIzation and much of the fan base evaluated the talent based on how good the stars USED to be and NOT how good they are NOW. As mentioned, its a problem many teams face and fail to address. Hanging on to stars way past their prime and not getting any value in return. The Steelers did that with the 70's team so its not just Hockey its all sports.

Regarding Jarry ...... 1) I don't think the problem is coaching, he has had multiple different good goalie coaches with the Pens and has another goalie coach in the off season who I believe is an NHL goalie coach for a Western Conference team ...... he has had expert coaching and he is what he is ...... 2) Jarry has had some injuries which have slowed him down the last few seasons so that is likely a factor in his performance ...... 3) I think he has a lot of natural ability/talent but he is a little slow to react in his movement on the ice ...... goalies have to see the ice and react, not see, think, and then react ..... if you are too slow to react and move, you get behind on the play and that leads to goals against ..... a perfect example is the 1st goal against TB the other night when Point beat Grzelcyk down the left wing, circled behind the net and came all the way around into the low slot and scored on a backhand ...... TJ appropriately went into the rVH position as Point came around the net but when Point didn't do a wrap around nor a bad angle shot attempt and kept coming into the slot, TJ should have telescoped out quickly and cut the angle on the shot down, he was slow to react, didn't get out at all, butterflied back on the goal line and left a lot of open net which Point capitalized on ....... 4) I also believe that TJ is not quite technically as sound as he needs to be ....... the other two goals against TB the other night again are perfect examples of what I'm talking about ..... the goal where he deflected the puck into his own net because of poor stick placement and the game winning goal in OT where he was 6 feet out of position illustrate problems with technical aspects of his game ...... 5) I don't know for sure but his psyche may be a problem in big games as well.

If he wants to improve, IMO, he could work hard on physical conditioning (and not saying he doesn't already do that) to try and prevent injuries, work on angles/positioning/movement, work on technical aspects of his game, and if psyche is a problem see a sports psychologist ...... maybe I'm wrong about him but that is what I see of him on the ice in games and despite good coaching he is what he is.

 

[goalieman]

Even more concerning is Rutger McGroarty's stats in Scranton. 1 goal in 11 games.

Skating, scoring, whatever, Brayden Yager is the better NHL prospect.

I share your concern but I'm not ready to write McGroarty off based on stats in his 1st eleven AHL games (he has 3 points in 11 games) ....... I think he and Yager are still both good NHL prospects and they certainly are very different types of players with somewhat different skill sets ...... a report I saw from WBS was that McGroarty seems to be improving more recently so will see how he does from here on ....... Yager's stats in Junior A this season are not as good as last year although they are still pretty good ........ also, it's hard to compare McGroarty's stats to Yager's as the AHL is a much higher level of play then Junior A ...... Yager will be 20 y/o in 6-7 weeks and is playing in Junior A for his 4th season against 16-20 y/o: McGroarty is playing in the highest pro minor league against many players who have played in the NHL and he previously was very good in the NCAA at Michigan for 2 years and the NCAA level of play is considered as good if not somewhat better than the top Junior A leagues by some.

Again, McGroarty's slow start is definitely concerning but I think it is a little early to say which of these players will be the better player in the long run ..... I think both could be solid/good NHL players....... and if McGroarty can improve his skating some, I think he will be a pretty good 200' player (middle 6 player) ...... maybe Yager will be the much better player with time, I just think it's still a little early to tell.

 

[Allan McMurray]

Who's ready for tonight's boat racing?

 

[goalieman]

Who's ready for tonight's boat racing?

I'm ready for Pitt basketball this afternoon and the Pens tonight !

Winnipeg is 16-3-0 so everyone thinks they will soundly beat the Pens, but I'm told that USN_Panther will be in goal tonight for the Pens so look for three things to happen ....1) the Pens to win 4-2, ....... 2) USN_Panther to have beer in his water bottle, and .......3) a brawl to break out between the two teams goalies. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

 

[Allan McMurray]

I'm ready for Pitt basketball this afternoon and the Pens tonight !

Winnipeg is 16-3-0 so everyone thinks they will soundly beat the Pens, but I'm told that USN_Panther will be in goal tonight for the Pens so look for three things to happen ....1) the Pens to win 4-2, ....... 2) USN_Panther to have beer in his water bottle, and .......3) a brawl to break out between the two teams goalies. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

I'd pay the price of admission and leave a tip for USN Panther if #2 and #3 happen!

 

[USN_Panther]

I'm ready for Pitt basketball this afternoon and the Pens tonight !

Winnipeg is 16-3-0 so everyone thinks they will soundly beat the Pens, but I'm told that USN_Panther will be in goal tonight for the Pens so look for three things to happen ....1) the Pens to win 4-2, ....... 2) USN_Panther to have beer in his water bottle, and .......3) a brawl to break out between the two teams goalies. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

They did ask me, but they couldn't find any Speights Summit Ultra. They were going to give me IC Light. I turned them down.
I think this is FSG going cheap.
The Bruins and TBL have also enquired. The Bruins want me to dance with Swayman so I said no.
I'm considering Tampa Bay, but they are balking at some of my demands.

 

[Allan McMurray]

They did ask me, but they couldn't find any Speights Summit Ultra. They were going to give me IC Light. I turned them down.
I think this is FSG going cheap.
The Bruins and TBL have also enquired. The Bruins want me to dance with Swayman so I said no.
I'm considering Tampa Bay, but they are balking at some of my demands.

What a bunch of savage animals Tampa is.

 

[USN_Panther]

What a bunch of savage animals Tampa is.

My demands are reasonable. I want Elon Musk to rocketship me back and forth to Gore and Dunedin so I can play beer league. It sucks when everyone has to play against Woody. Then they figure out that Woody has a better save percentage.

 

[Allan McMurray]

My demands are reasonable. I want Elon Musk to rocketship me back and forth to Gore and Dunedin so I can play beer league. It sucks when everyone has to play against Woody. Then they figure out that Woody has a better save percentage.

Tampa has always been a lousy sports town with lousy owners. #CheapBastards

 

[Allan McMurray]

That sure didn't take long.

 

[ONGB]

Starting to get concerned about Dubas. Is there one positive move he’s made ?

Lol. Be careful. When he was hired and I said let's take a wait and see attitude,people were shouting me down from the rooftops about what a GREAT,GREAT hire it was arguing a strawman as if I said it sucked before the ink was dry on his contract. After I gave no other opinion than we should wait until we judge his tenure here.

He knew the circumstances here. No one forced him to sign here.

The core was on a downward trend back then. Hey,if he wanted to tie himself to a sinking ship go for it but we all knew it. Surely he must've and had other options,even if that meant sitting at home waiting for a better situation if one became available.
Imo this wasn't an ideal situation for a relatively young executive to try to prove himself when the coach and almost 1/4 of the roster are off limits due to age/sentimentality.


Maybe something will change but this entire situation needs a turn around and some new voices imo

 

[Allan McMurray]

Jarry has actually played pretty well tonight.

 

[goalieman]

Crosby gets 600th goal !

 

[Allan McMurray]

 

[Allan McMurray]

Holy Cannoli, the boys are playing well. Jarry has been solid so far. 3-1 going into the 3rd against the Pantha's. Could we see a 4 game winning streak?

 

[goalieman]

PENS WIN 5-4 in OT on wrist shot by Rust ........ Pens 4-0-0 in last 4 games !

Pens outshot 41-16 but win 5-4 ...... Jarry GREAT in net !

Defensemen score 3 of 5 Pens goals !

 

[bwh05]

PENS WIN 5-4 in OT on wrist shot by Rust ........ Pens 4-0-0 in last 4 games !

Pens outshot 41-16 but win 5-4 ...... Jarry GREAT in net !

Defensemen score 3 of 5 Pens goals !

That was wild. It’s nice to steal a game

 

[NCanton Panther]

Didn’t see any of the game but saw the score of them leading 4-1 in the 3rd. Then saw the final score of 5-4 OT win.

Great to see and amazing to have a 4-game winning streak after how they had been playing. But have to admit it’s disappointing to hear they gave up another multi-goal 3rd period lead, this time a 3-goal cushion.

Was it really 41-16 shots on goal for the game? I saw in the box score summary that the FLA goalie was listed for only 11 saves. I figured that must have been because FLA switched goalies mid-game. I didn’t look any further to realize we only had 16 shots on goal for the game…and scored 5 times!!

 

[pittbb80]

PENS WIN 5-4 in OT on wrist shot by Rust ........ Pens 4-0-0 in last 4 games !

Pens outshot 41-16 but win 5-4 ...... Jarry GREAT in net !

Defensemen score 3 of 5 Pens goals !

Question is is this fools gold or have they really turned it around. I’m still skeptical that this is a playoff team let alone a contender. Even bad teams have good stretches.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Question is is this fools gold or have they really turned it around. I’m still skeptical that this is a playoff team let alone a contender. Even bad teams have good stretches.

Dead cat bounce.

 

[bwh05]

Question is is this fools gold or have they really turned it around. I’m still skeptical that this is a playoff team let alone a contender. Even bad teams have good stretches.

I can’t imagine we’re suddenly a good team, but I hope I’m wrong about that.

 

[goalieman]

PENS 5 MAPLE LEAFS 2, FINAL ....... after a dismal loss to the NYR's last night , the Pens come back and play a good game tonight to beat the Maple Leafs and are now 5-1-0 in their last 6 games ...... Jarry played well in goal.

 

[PittPharm2002]

PENS 5 MAPLE LEAFS 2, FINAL ....... after a dismal loss to the NYR's last night , the Pens come back and play a good game tonight to beat the Maple Leafs and are now 5-1-0 in their last 6 games ...... Jarry played well in goal.

Nice to see him rebound - we need him

 

[Dan1911]

Stay the course. This isn’t a good team. Continue retooling. Glad to see this streak, but continue to get younger and faster. They couldn’t make the playoffs the last few years with even greater talent and a younger core. Stand pat but don’t add people on expiring contracts to make a run this year. Some of the ancillary players are coming on strong? Perfect. Sell high. The pens are getting a bounce off the bottom. Great time to ask for more in trades.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Stay the course. This isn’t a good team. Continue retooling. Glad to see this streak, but continue to get younger and faster. They couldn’t make the playoffs the last few years with even greater talent and a younger core. Stand pat but don’t add people on expiring contracts to make a run this year. Some of the ancillary players are coming on strong? Perfect. Sell high. The pens are getting a bounce off the bottom. Great time to ask for more in trades.

Exactly my thoughts. Continue the course. If anything hope a couple of these runs inflate guys values like Petterson or Rackell. Wins are nice, but getting close and finishing just out of the playoffs and picking 14th overall is about the worst result this season could produce.

 

[pittbb80]

Watching the Avs vs Pens provides a clear contrast in the skill and talent level between the teams. Sid Malkin and Tanger are mere shells of what they used to be

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Watching the Avs vs Pens provides a clear contrast in the skill and talent level between the teams. Sid Malkin and Tanger are mere shells of what they used to be

Even Sid.......I am sorry, let's call a spade a spade. He has been just "a guy" for almost 6 weeks now. I think he would be fantastic as a complimentary part (like Trottier was here in the 90's) on a contender. I am doubting he can carry a team anymore.

 

[pittbb80]

Even Sid.......I am sorry, let's call a spade a spade. He has been just "a guy" for almost 6 weeks now. I think he would be fantastic as a complimentary part (like Trottier was here in the 90's) on a contender. I am doubting he can carry a team anymore.

Yup Sid is no longer a difference maker. I find it hard to believe he’d want to end his career in a rebuild situation like the pens are in unless he’s in denial as to the state of the franchise. Both he and the Pens would benefit from a trade

 

[USN_Panther]

What a goal by Rust! Terrible D by Montreal though.
Jarry looks good tonight.

 

[goalieman]

Pens 9 Montreal 2, Final !

Hat trick for Rust, Pens score 6 goals in the 3rd period !

Pens 6-2 in last 8 games.

Jarry solid.

Pens defense better tonight but against a bad Canadiens team.

Overall. I have been pleasantly surprised by the play of Pickering so far and he is now paired with Letrang.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Pens 9 Montreal 2, Final !

Hat trick for Rust, Pens score 6 goals in the 3rd period !

Pens 6-2 in last 8 games.

Jarry solid.

Pens defense better tonight but against a bad Canadiens team.

Overall. I have been pleasantly surprised by the play of Pickering so far and he is now paired with Letrang.

It's always nice like this.........but the Pens are handling bad teams and getting torched by good teams. The Pens need to commit.......to losing. Nothing worse, and I mean nothing would be worse to have another season where they just miss the playoffs and pick around 13-15 in the draft. They need to start getting premium picks.

On a really positive note, I am really impressed with Owen Pickering. He looks like he is going to be a good one.

 

[Allan McMurray]

Pens 9 Montreal 2, Final !

Hat trick for Rust, Pens score 6 goals in the 3rd period !

Pens 6-2 in last 8 games.

Jarry solid.

Pens defense better tonight but against a bad Canadiens team.

Overall. I have been pleasantly surprised by the play of Pickering so far and he is now paired with Letrang.

If Jarry can keep playing solid, it'll make it that much easier to trade him this season. Please happen.