Goalies can steal a game or 2 in the playoffs .
Thinking a goalie will bail out a bad team all season is insanity
OT - PENS ........
- Thread starter goalieman
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Thinking a goalie will bail out a bad team all season is insanity
Making $$$ it seems might be the only thing they care about. But how long will that last.
There are goalies that have played poorly for one team and better for another team but like USN_Panther says, generally the same goalie who plays for two different teams will look better playing for a good team with good defense then they will playing for a bad team with bad defense ....... advanced goalie analytics aren't perfect but can help evaluate how the goalie is playing independent of how his team in front of him is playing.
As to your Russian goalie question about why there are so many really good Russian goalies in the NHL at present ...... the Russians look to a certain profile in a player at a young age to pick players to develop as goalies ....... they want players with good size, who are great skaters, very flexible, agile, quick, great athletes, and have great lateral explosion ..... they identify players with these traits and then develop them as goalies ....... the Russians do have some interesting training (on and off ice) programs like Tretiak used to do as in the video below and they do other things like have goalies play 3v3 against each other cross ice in full goalie gear which helps them with skating but also with stickhandling, etc.,etc. ....... in more modern times the goalie coaching in Russia has become much better especially in teaching the technical aspects of goaltending ...... all of this has led to a lot of outstanding goalies coming out of Russia these days.
Below is a video narrated by USN_Panther (LOL) demonstrating some of Russian goalie Tretiak's training drills (on and off ice) for us .......
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I thought the first goal by the Canes last night was a microcosm of the Pens and their team this season so far ........ Eller turns the puck over in the neutral zone leading the Canes to go in transition, then Karlsson plays terrible position in the defensive zone on the Canes rush and allows a cross ice pass to an open Canes forward, and then Ned goes across and deep in the net instead of going across and out to try and make the save and is beaten just over the right shoulder because he is too deep in the crease, if he was out where he should have been, he very likely makes the save ....... so a terrible play by the forward, followed by terrible defense by our D-man, followed by weak goaltending ...... at present, we are a bad team at all levels.
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yeah Karlson is down right awful but at some point you have to look at sully who tolerates this crap. He seems more interested in being the suoerstars cheerleader than kicking ass and demanding more
triblive.com
Tim Benz: If you didn't like Erik Karlsson's performance in Carolina, you're going to hate his own analysis of it
The only thing worse than the performance of Penguins defenseman Erik Karlsson on Thursday night was his own assessment of it. The Penguins lost to the Carolina Hurricanes, 5-1. He was held without a point, was a minus-3, and was the only defenseman on the team who failed to register
triblive.com
Pens goalies putting on a clinic.
11 shots, 5 goals let in!
Can they use 2 goalies at once and sit one of their great defensemen?
EDIT: Spoke too soon 12 shots 6 goals allowed!! Going for some kind of record.
And this is just in the first period!!!
11 shots, 5 goals let in!
Can they use 2 goalies at once and sit one of their great defensemen?
EDIT: Spoke too soon 12 shots 6 goals allowed!! Going for some kind of record.
And this is just in the first period!!!
Agreed. Coaches need to keep players accountable. If you keep players making bad plays in the game, nothing will change. Karlsson should be benched or scratched until he plays some defense or at least can make outlet passes that aren’t constantly intercepted.yeah Karlson is down right awful but at some point you have to look at sully who tolerates this crap. He seems more interested in being the suoerstars cheerleader than kicking ass and demanding more
Tim Benz: If you didn't like Erik Karlsson's performance in Carolina, you're going to hate his own analysis of it
The only thing worse than the performance of Penguins defenseman Erik Karlsson on Thursday night was his own assessment of it. The Penguins lost to the Carolina Hurricanes, 5-1. He was held without a point, was a minus-3, and was the only defenseman on the team who failed to register
Good thing the Steelers are making a little noise, otherwise this was going to be nuclear winter for Pittsburgh Sports teams for the foreseeable future!
I believe Letang was a minus-4 last night as well, or was at least at one point in the game.
I was against the ek65 trade from the start. Fans were told he would immediately fix the power play (last years PP was still abysmal), and make them contenders. Neither happened. Add his horrid defense with his costs far outweighing his benefits. Can they get him to waive his N T C /nmc and if they eat enough salary, can they unload him?
I was against the ek65 trade from the start. Fans were told he would immediately fix the power play (last years PP was still abysmal), and make them contenders. Neither happened. Add his horrid defense with his costs far outweighing his benefits. Can they get him to waive his N T C /nmc and if they eat enough salary, can they unload him?
Probably not. Other teams have eyes too. These guys are washed up.
The Pens compete with the lower rung teams and get steamrolled by the better teams. They are full of players well on the north side of 30, if not 35. It isn't going to get better, until it gets much worse. That's it. Nothing else can be said.
My plan.................if I was in charge...........................here's exactly what I would do.
1. Fire Sullivan. Thanksgiving is fine.
2. Bring in an asshole disciplinarian ala Therrien or Torts....
3. Hopefully this takes the guys out of their country club comfort level
4. Making EK65, Letang and Geno uncomfortable then see if they would waive NMC's and trade them for younger players/picks.
5. Hopefully an increased focus on defense insulates the goalies and Jarry comes on and does well.
6. Trade Jarry either at the deadline or offseason.
7. Trade Rackell, Petterson, Rust, whoever you can.
8. Have that honest conversation with Sid. Ask him bluntly if he wants to go through this for the next few years or he can stay and be the mentor to a new bunch of young players.
9) Rebuild totally through the draft.
10) Take out ads and send out letters like the Brewers did a few years ago saying they need to rebuild and than the players for the last 2 decades and 3 Cups.
This draft there is some decent level at the top. 2026 is a prize with Canada's Gavin McKenna.
My plan.................if I was in charge...........................here's exactly what I would do.
1. Fire Sullivan. Thanksgiving is fine.
2. Bring in an asshole disciplinarian ala Therrien or Torts....
3. Hopefully this takes the guys out of their country club comfort level
4. Making EK65, Letang and Geno uncomfortable then see if they would waive NMC's and trade them for younger players/picks.
5. Hopefully an increased focus on defense insulates the goalies and Jarry comes on and does well.
6. Trade Jarry either at the deadline or offseason.
7. Trade Rackell, Petterson, Rust, whoever you can.
8. Have that honest conversation with Sid. Ask him bluntly if he wants to go through this for the next few years or he can stay and be the mentor to a new bunch of young players.
9) Rebuild totally through the draft.
10) Take out ads and send out letters like the Brewers did a few years ago saying they need to rebuild and than the players for the last 2 decades and 3 Cups.
This draft there is some decent level at the top. 2026 is a prize with Canada's Gavin McKenna.
Hopefully that’s just the tip of the iceburg. Otherwise it doesn’t make much sense
If this is the start, ought to get a new coach. Sullivan is a fine coach, but new blood is needed to work with a new group of guys and potential kids.
Yeah - Sullivan has proven to a great coach -
But it’s time to turn the page - because he isn’t adapting to the current team construction.
And so it begins....quietly Dubas has acquired alot of capital in the draft. The next step is to bottom out and get top 5 picks.
A few thoughts/comments ......
- Such a terrible showing the other night against Dallas, especially defensively ...... about as bad as it gets ..... they need a lot more structure and strict adherence to a more defensive system ....... it is getting more and more likely that a new coach will be needed to get this done.
- Karlsson's defensive play over his career has not been great but it has become an even larger concern this season so far ..... he continuously is out of position, taking bad angles, misjudging gaps, misjudging the speed of the opponents on rushes, for some reason can't defend to his right side (opponents coming down the left wing) ........ his defense at it's present level is basically making him nearly unplayable.
- Ryan Graves was bad last year and has a bad contract, but he has played somewhat better this year although not up to his contract.
- Dubas has let it be known around the league that everyone on the roster except #87 is available, so the Eller trade is not unexpected ....... he will be an UFA at the end of this season, will be 36 y/o next season and so is unlikely to be in the Pens long term plans ....... at least they got 2 draft picks for him (2025 5th and 2027 3rd), get some cap flexibility, and it frees up some playing time for younger players.
- Dubas's statement and the trade of Eller likely signal a full commitment to rebuilding now ..... more trades will be expected between now and the trade deadline and even over next summer ....... Marcus Pettersson I would think is likely to go ...... good, solid defenseman who should bring a decent/ok return, he is an UFA at the end of this season and will require an increase in salary that the Pens likely won't want to pay ....... potentially a lot more trades to come that hopefully bring more draft picks, young prospects, and cap space relief.
- 3 goalies back on the roster now ...... Ned is supposed to be in goal tonight against the RedWings and they likely will be getting Jarry back in net soon ..... Blomqvist has been their overall best goalie so far but had a really bad night against Dallas ..... I suspect if Jarry can get back to his better goalie self that they will send Blomqvist back to WBS to play more regularly and go with TJ and Ned in Pittsburgh ...... if Jarry remains as bad as previously this season, then things are more problematic and some tougher decisions may need to be made.
- If things continue to go poorly for the Pens, then later this season and even more likely next season, we probably will see a number of the younger guys on the roster (McGroarty/Ponomarev/Koivunen/Broz/Gruden/Pickering/Brunicke/Blomqvist, etc.) ..... not sure how Sid, Geno, Letang handle that.
- Such a terrible showing the other night against Dallas, especially defensively ...... about as bad as it gets ..... they need a lot more structure and strict adherence to a more defensive system ....... it is getting more and more likely that a new coach will be needed to get this done.
- Karlsson's defensive play over his career has not been great but it has become an even larger concern this season so far ..... he continuously is out of position, taking bad angles, misjudging gaps, misjudging the speed of the opponents on rushes, for some reason can't defend to his right side (opponents coming down the left wing) ........ his defense at it's present level is basically making him nearly unplayable.
- Ryan Graves was bad last year and has a bad contract, but he has played somewhat better this year although not up to his contract.
- Dubas has let it be known around the league that everyone on the roster except #87 is available, so the Eller trade is not unexpected ....... he will be an UFA at the end of this season, will be 36 y/o next season and so is unlikely to be in the Pens long term plans ....... at least they got 2 draft picks for him (2025 5th and 2027 3rd), get some cap flexibility, and it frees up some playing time for younger players.
- Dubas's statement and the trade of Eller likely signal a full commitment to rebuilding now ..... more trades will be expected between now and the trade deadline and even over next summer ....... Marcus Pettersson I would think is likely to go ...... good, solid defenseman who should bring a decent/ok return, he is an UFA at the end of this season and will require an increase in salary that the Pens likely won't want to pay ....... potentially a lot more trades to come that hopefully bring more draft picks, young prospects, and cap space relief.
- 3 goalies back on the roster now ...... Ned is supposed to be in goal tonight against the RedWings and they likely will be getting Jarry back in net soon ..... Blomqvist has been their overall best goalie so far but had a really bad night against Dallas ..... I suspect if Jarry can get back to his better goalie self that they will send Blomqvist back to WBS to play more regularly and go with TJ and Ned in Pittsburgh ...... if Jarry remains as bad as previously this season, then things are more problematic and some tougher decisions may need to be made.
- If things continue to go poorly for the Pens, then later this season and even more likely next season, we probably will see a number of the younger guys on the roster (McGroarty/Ponomarev/Koivunen/Broz/Gruden/Pickering/Brunicke/Blomqvist, etc.) ..... not sure how Sid, Geno, Letang handle that.
Getting a 5th and 7th for Eller makes me doubt Dubas .
That’s pathetic
The thing to remember though is that in hockey even a 3rd round draft pick is unlikely to ever make much of a difference at the NHL level.
Go back ten years, to the 2014 draft. There are more guys, 14, who never played even one NHL game than there are guys who have played in at least 100 NHL games, 8. There are really only two guys taken in the 3rd round that year, Brayden Point and Ilya Sorokin, who would be considered to be even average NHL players. The guy with the second most point of those guys is Warren Foegele with 172 in 448 games. The second best goalie is Elvis Merzlikins, who was never actually very good.
And sure, other years were more productive. The year before was the year that the Pens got Jake Guentzel in the 3rd. Other players in the 3rd round that year include Brett Pesce, Pavel Buchnevich, Oliver Bjorkstrand and a couple others. There were only seven guys with more than 100 points, but they all had at least 198 (and that is Pesce, a defenseman). But there were also 12 guys taken that round who never played in the NHL, and another three with 11 games or less.
But then there are also years like 2015. One player, Anthony Cirelli with 246 points. No one else with even 100. 16 guys never made the league. Three guys with 13 or fewer games.
In short, 3rd round draft picks in the NHL are nothing more than lottery tickets. Heck, in a lot of years so are second round picks.
You simply aren't going to get much for an old, below average player.
Unfortunately, that describes most of the guys the Penguins have available to trade.
But here's the thing. Sullivan. So they trade Eller, promote former #1 pick Sammy Poulin, and drives across the state to from WBS to Pittsburgh and what does Sullivan do? Make him a healthy scratch. I mean this guy just has to go. Sooner rather than later.
They should have gotten 3 #1 picks for him!!!!
I mean - if we need to retool through the draft -
Is a 5th rounder helping?
Maybe for some minor league depth
REPLY (no I'm not PITTLAW in disguise, LOL) :
- They recalled Poulin on Monday 11/11 from WBS, the same day as the Dallas disaster ...... he drove in from WBS, not sure when he arrived in Pittsburgh but I highly doubt he was at the morning skate or practiced at all with the Pens before the game that night ...... Poulin was recalled because Hayes went on injured reserve ...... Eller played that night 11/11 against Dallas .... so they held Poulin out against Dallas likely because he hadn't practiced, they were playing a really good team, and Eller was still available and played.
- Eller was traded the next day , Tuesday 11/12 and the team practiced.
- The next game was last night, Wednesday 11/13 and Poulin played.
- There are plenty of reasons why Sullivan is on the hot seat and likely will be replaced possibly sooner than later unless there is some unexpected turn around in the near future (and I'm certainly fine with that) ....... but not playing Poulin 11/11 is unlikely to be one of those reasons for his dismissal ..... that's a bit of a stretch, you can criticize Sullivan for use especially of young players but this is not one of them IMO.
- Today, Joel Blomqvist was sent down to WBS as expected, Vasiliy Ponomarev was recalled from WBS, and Matt Nieto was recalled from LTIR.
- Would be very surprised if several more trades don't happen between now and the trade deadline and maybe even next summer ..... Dubas will want to stock up, if possible, on young NHL players, prospects, draft picks, cap space ..... will be interesting to see more of the Pens WBS prospects play in Pittsburgh this season ....... if Sullivan is let go, it will also be very interesting to see his replacement and how they work out and where Sullivan ends up.
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They asked Malkin last night if he wanted to stay and he said "yeah, this is my second home". And basically he, Sid and Letang want to stay together. So.........EK65. Why would he want to stay? I mean the Pens aren't going anywhere, he is starting to develop a contentious relationship with fans and media. He has to be moved. So does Petterson. I would see what the market is for Rackell. And if Jarry rebounds maybe he has some value.
As for Eller, you do wonder if someone like him garners more attention (and therefore drives up his value) toward the trade deadline when teams are looking for specific pieces like an Eller.
I think in Eller's case, it's possible they could have gotten more for him at the trade deadline but really how much more and if he doesn't play as well going forward or gets hurt, they may get less for him or nothing if he is hurt or gets to free agency .... I think they got what they felt they reasonably could and another benefit to trading him now was freeing up playing time for younger players.
Dubas let it be known around the league that everyone on the roster except #87 is available ...... I'm OK with trading anyone as long as the return and/or result of the trade is as good or better for the Pens then the asset being traded.
I think Pettersson will be traded ...... UFA after the season, will be due for salary raise ...... Guentzel type situation to some degree.
Rust, Rakell, and Bunting may give fairly good yields (Rust's NMC goes away after this season).
I think at their present level of play that they would like to get rid of the contracts of Karlsson, Jarry, Graves although that could change if they started playing better.
Is Hayes worth another year of 3.57 M cap hit ? Acciari ?
Geno has one more year after this so he could be gone then and maybe Letang will want to head to Montreal and Sid to Colorado to play with his good friend MacKinnon at that point .... who knows, things can change quickly.
Not all the above will happen, maybe none will, other things may happen, it's up to Dubas to figure it out ...... obviously the Pens are in a tough situation, we'll see how it plays out.
He was at the morning skate, because the Trib had a little blurb that afternoon about who was playing and they said that Poulin probably wasn't playing because he was one of the last people who took the skate to leave the ice, and that usually means that a player is getting scratched.
I just looked to see if I could find the story still on their site, but it does not look like it is still there anymore.
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