Where were you when he was 1 for 14 with 9 strikeouts? Glad you are being a dick too.
OT: Pirates Ke'Bryan Hayes a bust?
- Thread starter PittPoker
- Start date
Just enjoying a big exciting win. Lot's of fun. Don't take it so personally. I'd like more out of Hayes too, even if I wouldn't call him a bust.
So now he’s going to go 0/4 tonight and we’ll hear again: “see? He sucks!”
I think we all understand the frustration but also obviously want to see him turn it around. Hopefully last night was a step in a positive direction… though he did go into that awful rut after his last HR in Seattle. It’s a long season, let’s just see how it goes for him. He is third on the team in hits, now let’s see that OPS back over .700.
I think we all understand the frustration but also obviously want to see him turn it around. Hopefully last night was a step in a positive direction… though he did go into that awful rut after his last HR in Seattle. It’s a long season, let’s just see how it goes for him. He is third on the team in hits, now let’s see that OPS back over .700.
We’re 6 pages into this thread now and one constant remains…Poker’s stance is closer to reality than everyone else’s dumping all over him about it.
I mean it was comical the dude had 1 really good game(about the hell time) and the same bunch comes right in here to brag like that proves how great he is smh. It's too funny. Freeport is approaching King territory. Glad I have both on ignore now. Sometimes though even though they're on ignore their messages will show on occasion. I think it's a glitch.
You don’t at all see a comparison between that behavior and the fact that you were MIA for a month when he raised his BA over 100 points but then showed up immediately when he had 14 bad at bats?
I don't remember referencing this guy once in this entire thread.
His opinion is typically over the top and hyper emotional but that is par for the course with him.
Never saw anyone get his panties bunched up over likes!
Someone disagrees with his take, and you are immediately "attacking" him personally???
My posts in this thread have been very tame.
And I reiterate my opinion that Hayes is far from a ML bust, and his salary is not exorbitant for someone with his abilities.
While he isn't a superstar, he's a solid ML player. The Pirates gave him a fair long term deal.
All I know is I turned it off at 0-5, and woke up to see they won 7-5. That’s awesome. And then I see Hayes had the 3 run blast and it made it even better. Lastly I looked at the box score and saw that he went 3-4. I am really really happy for the kid because he’s struggled and he seems like a really good person.
He’s not a bust and he’s certainly not overpaid by todays standards. But he’s got a ways to go to be a plus player at that position. Let’s hope this gets him going.
He’s not a bust and he’s certainly not overpaid by todays standards. But he’s got a ways to go to be a plus player at that position. Let’s hope this gets him going.
He's got a ways to go to be a plus player with the bat, but his defense at that position may be the best in all of MLB. That ain't for nothing!
If he can hit around .270 with gap power and average around 10-12 HR's he'll be a steal at that salary.
Mazeroski got to the HOF with similar numbers and outstanding defensive ability.
I think I floated this out there somewhere in this long thread. Is there a metric for wins above replacement that takes into account offense and defense? I don’t know how the stats geeks would measure such a thing, but it would be interesting. I’ve seen him win games with his glove and lose games with his bat. And last night he won one with his bat.
Just watched the highlights. That ballpark was buzzing. Nice to see.
The over riding point is, he is far from a "bust" and he is not overpaid.
According to McCutcheon, the kid is working his ass off with the hitting coach to get better, and the past couple games, it seems to be working.
Here's what Shelton said about Hayes: “It was great,” Pirates manager Derek Shelton said. “That’s what we’ve talked about. When he’s on time and he gets the ball up front, he has the ability to impact the ball. We definitely saw that.”
Like you said, he's a good guy, easy to root for.
I don’t know what kind of a man Charlie Hayes was. But I would assume he was a good man and raised a good kid. Presumably we see what impact a strong father had in a man’s life. Both K’Bryan and Barry Bonds grew up around the game. Yet one is easy to root for and the other was the biggest jerk known to man.
Wednesdays are out now that I work at 7 am every day and get up at 530
They do keep defensive WAR stats, and Hayes’ problem is that he plays a position where defensive skill means very little to a team’s record.
Through the end of May, the only 3B in the top 50 of defensive WAR is Alex Bregman who is #48 with a .3 score. Over the course of the entire season that is slightly less than 1 win.
Brooks Robinson is the all-time leader in defensive WAR for a 3B with 39.1 over 23 seasons. That’s a little over 1.5 a season. The only other primarily 3B in the top 50 are Clete Boyer and Scott Rolen, both of whom also played other positions at times.
Almost all of the high defensive WAR numbers are SS, C and OF. Maz is an anomaly for 2B at #24.
So, statistically speaking, Hayes’ defense is almost meaningless to the Pirates’ record. His offense, however, is anemic, and playing at what traditionally has been a power position, is clearly harmful to the Pirates’ record. His offensive WAR this year is 0.0. Even with the manager talking about all of the hard work he has done to try to improve his hitting over the last month, his batting average is identical to what it was a month ago, and every other offensive number puts him at or near the bottom for starting 3B.
He isn’t a bust. Half of the guys drafted ahead of him (he was #32, a compensation pick; they took Kevin Newman with the #19 pick) never made the Majors. But, he isn’t a big asset either.
Through the end of May, the only 3B in the top 50 of defensive WAR is Alex Bregman who is #48 with a .3 score. Over the course of the entire season that is slightly less than 1 win.
Brooks Robinson is the all-time leader in defensive WAR for a 3B with 39.1 over 23 seasons. That’s a little over 1.5 a season. The only other primarily 3B in the top 50 are Clete Boyer and Scott Rolen, both of whom also played other positions at times.
Almost all of the high defensive WAR numbers are SS, C and OF. Maz is an anomaly for 2B at #24.
So, statistically speaking, Hayes’ defense is almost meaningless to the Pirates’ record. His offense, however, is anemic, and playing at what traditionally has been a power position, is clearly harmful to the Pirates’ record. His offensive WAR this year is 0.0. Even with the manager talking about all of the hard work he has done to try to improve his hitting over the last month, his batting average is identical to what it was a month ago, and every other offensive number puts him at or near the bottom for starting 3B.
He isn’t a bust. Half of the guys drafted ahead of him (he was #32, a compensation pick; they took Kevin Newman with the #19 pick) never made the Majors. But, he isn’t a big asset either.
The same place you were when he has hit well?
Most people understand that one good game or one bad series or a good or bad week aren't all that meaningful in the grand scheme of things. The ones that don't run here to bitch about the 1-14. The ones who do mock the ones who don't by pointing out really good games or series.
WAR (attempts to) measure offense, defense and base running, adjusted for position. So far this year Hayes' WAR is 0.8. He has 0.0 WAR from offense, 1.0 from defense, and -0.2 from base running. Last year he had 4.3 WAR, 1.7 from offense, 3.0 from defense, and -0.4 from base running. For his career he has 9.3 WAR, 3.8 from offense, 6.3 from defense, and -0.8 from base running.
I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but it is wrong. As of right now Hayes' defensive WAR for the season is 1.0. He is currently 9th in all of baseball regardless of position. Last season Hayes' defensive WAR was 3.0, which was the highest in all of MLB regardless of position.
Defensive WAR leaders by season
Good stuff Mike but how I look at it, when the cheapest organization in mlb just about signs someone to their second biggest contract in team history - and this player has a 0.0 WAR offensively? And has shown little power and was a week ago at .218? Year 3 no less. I consider that bust territory. He has had games like Friday night from time to time but then goes back to his usual useless at-bats for extended periods. So yeah it was great to see him have 3 hits including a HR, I want to see more consistency from him at the plate. He's just the kind of player that follows 3-4 nights with 0 for 5 and 3 strikeouts the next.
Fun with small sample sizes:
.333/.333/.778, with 81 home runs and 324 RBI. I'll take it!
Okay let me elaborate a tad more. He'll go 3 for 4 in 1 game and then go 3 for 26 in the next 6. How's that?
He is leading all of baseball in Outs Above Average and is tied for the league lead in Runs Prevented this year. His bat is not great but his defense is so good that it doesn't matter. He was worth 3 WAR just off of his defense last year.
He is a good player.
I won't quote that post so when it gets deleted people won't see it, and I don't take anything that anyone posts here all too seriously, but that post is beyond the pale.
Exactly, that's why I made sure to rub Kenny's nose in it after he commented on Hayes first AB last night. He promptly followed that up with 3 hits including the game winning come from behind 3 run homer!
This entire thread contains more lunacy than one thread deserves.
This guy is psycho! I never addressed him or his posts one time in this entire thread, yet he's obsessing over me liking a post that disagreed with him.
Unless he's on the spectrum, in which case I apologize, this guy is a total whack job!
I've had him on ignore since his ridiculous basketball posts ruined so many game threads.
The post he's currently melting down on was directed at KennyHeisman8 who ran here after Hayes first at bat, which was bad, and then Hayes lighting it up for 3 straight including the game winning HR. That was too funny to pass up.
No rational person judges a MLB player at bat by at bat, or even week to week.
Hayes is a legitimate MLB player and is paid fairly for what he brings to the table, especially on defense. Hopefully his offense improves, at which point the salary will be a steal!
This is my entire point. It’s not a two choice outcome. He can fall somewhere between bust and HOFer.
I’d rather have Bonds even if he was three times the jerk is supposedly is.
Can’t argue with that. Sometimes people who are perceived by some as jerks and aholes are good at their jobs and yield way better results in life.
And that’s the total point ski…I’m with you. The OP had him pegged as an overpaid bust and neither are true.
I know it’s been around a while but never knew much about these advanced stats. Wonder if those who are crushing Hayes don’t or won’t accept the modern analytics. He’s seen in the old school as a very light hitting corner guy. Which was always no good.
From fan graphs (no idea how legit but thought it was interesting in light of the discussion)
“Hayes has the highest defensive projection on this page, even higher than Arenado and Chapman — the Pittsburgh third baseman should start collecting Gold Gloves any day now. Name any defensive metric you like, and you can rest assured that somewhere in its source code it has been scrawling its initials next to Hayes’ and drawing little hearts around them.
All-world defense with a below-average bat makes for a valuable third baseman, but with Hayes the prospect of more is just so tantalizing. Still, after another season with a wRC+ in the high 80s, it seems less likely that he’ll unlock the potential that his bat so clearly possesses. Hayes hits the ball plenty hard. In fact, he does almost everything right at the plate, and if he can ever figure out how to hit the ball skyward, the sky is the limit. His 5.2-degree launch angle was the seventh-lowest in the majors in 2022, even though it doubled his 2021 launch angle.”
From fan graphs (no idea how legit but thought it was interesting in light of the discussion)
“Hayes has the highest defensive projection on this page, even higher than Arenado and Chapman — the Pittsburgh third baseman should start collecting Gold Gloves any day now. Name any defensive metric you like, and you can rest assured that somewhere in its source code it has been scrawling its initials next to Hayes’ and drawing little hearts around them.
All-world defense with a below-average bat makes for a valuable third baseman, but with Hayes the prospect of more is just so tantalizing. Still, after another season with a wRC+ in the high 80s, it seems less likely that he’ll unlock the potential that his bat so clearly possesses. Hayes hits the ball plenty hard. In fact, he does almost everything right at the plate, and if he can ever figure out how to hit the ball skyward, the sky is the limit. His 5.2-degree launch angle was the seventh-lowest in the majors in 2022, even though it doubled his 2021 launch angle.”
Because he posted something incorrect, as the link I posted shows, but it agrees with you?
