OT: Pirates Ke'Bryan Hayes a bust?

[Fk_Pitt]

I think this thread has already established Hayes as not the prototypical MLB 3rd baseman. So wondering if he could be moved to a different position is not an odd thing to do. So I guess if he can’t be moved, then I guess he could be described as not enough power to be top flight 3rd baseman and not enough defensive attributes to be a shortstop.

 

[goodtymes]

I think this thread has already established Hayes as not the prototypical MLB 3rd baseman. So wondering if he could be moved to a different position is not an odd thing to do. So I guess if he can’t be moved, then I guess he could be described as not enough power to be top flight 3rd baseman and not enough defensive attributes to be a shortstop.

Depends how you define power. He could still end up with a .470+ slugging percentage while hitting 12-15 homeruns, because if he figures it out and this stretch is a glimpse of him turning the corner, he could be a guy who hits 35+ doubles and another 5 triples. So he may not 30 HRs, but I think he has enough “power” to be a very good 3B

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Since the great one here never heard of it I guess it should never be considered. Our bad Oh Great One.

Do you really think that no one in the Pirates organization over the last eight years has thought about the potential of playing Hayes at short?

Or is it perhaps more likely that the people who know better than you and have vastly more information than you have considered it and determined that it's not a good idea?

Nah, can't be that.

 

[HailToPitt725]

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I posted this in the wrong thread.

Circling back to Jack Suwinski. He is now 8th in the Majors in OPS. He has a higher OPS than Goldschmidt, Alonso and Mookie Betts. Maybe the Pirates gave the wrong guy money. Because he also isn't a bad OF. Anyways, he is a legit major leaguer and a good one at that.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I posted this in the wrong thread.

Circling back to Jack Suwinski. He is now 8th in the Majors in OPS. He has a higher OPS than Goldschmidt, Alonso and Mookie Betts. Maybe the Pirates gave the wrong guy money. Because he also isn't a bad OF. Anyways, he is a legit major leaguer and a good one at that.

I happen to think he’s a good outfielder. In games that I watch, he shows good range in CF. Not sure how the stats feel, but he passes the eye test when I’m watching.

I also posted here last year that Suwinsky and Cruz had similar seasons, yet no one was hyping Suwinski and everyone was hyping Cruz largely because he throws hard and hits hard. And of course people strongly disagreed with me even comparing the two. Probably because they were influenced every time Greg Brown had a tingle up his leg for Cruz. I’ll never forget the time Greg brown had an orgasm when Cruz hit the ball really really high. And it was an out behind the 2nd base bag.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I happen to think he’s a good outfielder. In games that I watch, he shows good range in CF. Not sure how the stats feel, but he passes the eye test when I’m watching.

I also posted here last year that Suwinsky and Cruz had similar seasons, yet no one was hyping Suwinski and everyone was hyping Cruz largely because he throws hard and hits hard. And of course people strongly disagreed with me even comparing the two. Probably because they were influenced every time Greg Brown had a tingle up his leg for Cruz. I’ll never forget the time Greg brown had an orgasm when Cruz hit the ball really really high. And it was an out behind the 2nd base bag.

I mean you cannot deny Cruz's talents. Hopefully the broken ankle doesn't affect them and his growth. Then again, maybe it ends up being the best thing and he becomes a corner OF.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Maybe the Pirates gave the wrong guy money.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I mean you cannot deny Cruz's talents. Hopefully the broken ankle doesn't affect them and his growth. Then again, maybe it ends up being the best thing and he becomes a corner OF.

No. Agreed. And Cruz came with a lot of pedigree and Suwinski was never considered a top 10 pirate system prospect and came out of nowhere. So that could be part of it too.

But their production was very similar once they both got here.

 

[PittPoker]

And Reynolds sucks.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

And Reynolds sucks.

He doesn't "suck". Okay. He just might not be an All Star level player. He is a competent MLB player. But he doesn't suck. Go order chicken tenders from Uber eats.

 

[PittPoker]

He doesn't "suck". Okay. He just might not be an All Star level player. He is a competent MLB player. But he doesn't suck. Go order chicken tenders from Uber eats.

Lol is ordering chicken from Uber Eats supposed to be an insult? You are so ridiculous you tried to insult me because I didn't drive to pick up food when I don't even have a car? You do realize that food delivery apps are used by people who um want food delivered to them? Like pizza places who send out delivery drivers.

I really don't think there is much more to add to this. Oh yeah 1 more thing: Reynolds sucks!

 

[HailToPitt725]

And Reynolds sucks.

And the Bryan Reynolds hot streak begins…. now!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Lol is ordering chicken from Uber Eats supposed to be an insult? You are so ridiculous you tried to insult me because I didn't drive to pick up food when I don't even have a car? You do realize that food delivery apps are used by people who um want food delivered to them? Like pizza places who send out delivery drivers.

I really don't think there is much more to add to this. Oh yeah 1 more thing: Reynolds sucks!

I mean he doesn't suck you hilljack. Are you that stupid? Really, you aren't a smart guy are you.

 

[PittPoker]

I mean he doesn't suck you hilljack. Are you that stupid? Really, you aren't a smart guy are you.

You're insulting my intelligence? This coming from the same moron who thinks calling me out for ordering chicken from a food delivery app is BAD?!?! Lol bro you need to sit this one out, you won't win.

And yeah Reynolds got a $106 million dollar extension and in May and June he has a grand total of 2 HR's and is hitting below .200. He hit .200 the first 2 months last season before a few week June hot stretch got his avg up a bunch and he looked really good. For 3 weeks. Then he sucked again. Then a month later he got hot for a couple of weeks. You think this kind of production is worth $106 million?

Reynolds sucks.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Sucks. Sucks. Sucks. There is a difference between "sucks" and maybe "not worth the contract". Reynolds is a solid MLB player. Your vocabulary is limited. You also seem to have issues. Really. Please seek some help. Might he be overpaid based on his new salary? Yeah. Perhaps. I could have easily seen the Pirates to not sign him to a big extension without criticism. But that is not "sucks". Learn the English language. You aren't that smart. That is not bullying, it is just apparent.

 

[CJsE]

You're insulting my intelligence? This coming from the same moron who thinks calling me out for ordering chicken from a food delivery app is BAD?!?! Lol bro you need to sit this one out, you won't win.

And yeah Reynolds got a $106 million dollar extension and in May and June he has a grand total of 2 HR's and is hitting below .200. He hit .200 the first 2 months last season before a few week June hot stretch got his avg up a bunch and he looked really good. For 3 weeks. Then he sucked again. Then a month later he got hot for a couple of weeks. You think this kind of production is worth $106 million?

Reynolds sucks.

Reynolds is hitting .254 through May and June...not under .200

In August and September last year he hit .278 with 12 HRs and a .845 OPS. That OPS would put him in top 20-30 players in the league over a full season. He finished the season 34th in OPS and 36th in OBP.

His salary this year is the 109th most expensive among batters.
His salary for next season is 75th, which is sure to drop lower after Free Agency,

He is still over performing his contract.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

His salary this year is the 109th most expensive among batters.
His salary for next season is 75th, which is sure to drop lower after Free Agency,

Like I said before, people seem to have no idea what good major league baseball players make.

 

[PittPoker]

Reynolds is hitting .254 through May and June...not under .200

In August and September last year he hit .278 with 12 HRs and a .845 OPS. That OPS would put him in top 20-30 players in the league over a full season. He finished the season 34th in OPS and 36th in OBP.

His salary this year is the 109th most expensive among batters.
His salary for next season is 75th, which is sure to drop lower after Free Agency,

He is still over performing his contract.

Contract was a waste. When's the last time he drove in the game winning run late in a ballgame? 2 HR's since the first week of April. $106 million for that? Please another terrible signing. And Hayes is 4 for his last 24. Par for the course with him.

 

[CJsE]

Contract was a waste. When's the last time he drove in the game winning run late in a ballgame? 2 HR's since the first week of April. $106 million for that? Please another terrible signing. And Hayes is 4 for his last 24. Par for the course with him.

There are 12 Left Fielders (13 if you count IR) paid more than Reynolds, his OPS is higher than 8 of them.
His WAR is higher than 9 of them.
He has more RBIs than 10 of them.

I honestly can't tell if you're serious.

 

[PittPoker]

There are 12 Left Fielders (13 if you count IR) paid more than Reynolds, his OPS is higher than 8 of them.
His WAR is higher than 9 of them.
He has more RBIs than 10 of them.

I honestly can't tell if you're serious.

I'm very serious, he has been really disappointing.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I honestly can't tell if you're serious.

The scary thing is that he is completely serious.

 

[Hailpitt]

Good news Hayes acolytes. I was at Hayes bobble head give-away game. I have 3 extra. Can offer great deal on them ( he makes HOF these things will be mint)

 

[PittPoker]

I’ve acknowledged, in this thread and elsewhere, that Hayes needs to hit better. I just find Poker’s hyperbolic overreacting and calling him a bust to be ludicrous.

Ski you know I love ya man but what do you think of Hayes now? He has been awful this season. He just can't hit. I'm sorry but when the cheapo Pirates lock in a player to be a cornerstone of the franchise and he sucks at the plate, that's really bad.

You gotta wonder though how much of his struggles are with the whole Pirates coaching and development program. Literally nobody really gets better but so many stink and regress. I'm already worried about Henry Davis. Drafted 1st overall he is now 2 for his last 35(.057 avg) and 4 for his last 51(.078 avg). Throw in Hayes and Suwinski who is now 0 for August and is hitting .216 and Nick Gonzales struggled when he was up(#7 overall). I think the Pirates need to fire Andy Haines the hitting coach like yesterday and revamp their approach. It's worrisome as a fan. Especially this is year 4 of a rebuild.

 

[PittPoker]

Like I said, SIX years from now he'll still only be making $8 million. If he never becomes much more than he is now, he will be well worth the contract that he's playing under.

Of course everyone wants his offense to improve. If it does, five or six years from now there's a chance that he will be on the most team friendly contract in all of baseball.

Here you go. You basically said he is easily worth the $8+ million dollars the Pirates are paying him. Sorry but no he ain't. On a team with lots of good hitters you could live maybe with a corner infielder who can't hit. But not on this team. Not by a longshot. Hell Triolo stepped in for Hayes while he was hurt AGAIN and played excellent defense. And hit better than Hayes. Sure he doesn't have power but at this point neither does Hayes. Pirates don't need to be paying a guy $8-$10 million dollars a season who can't hit worth a damn.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

For some reason pirates fans really get super upset when anyone points out hayes kind of stinks, and yes he is awful offensively

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Hell Triolo stepped in for Hayes while he was hurt AGAIN and played excellent defense. And hit better than Hayes.

This is the reason that people with even semi-functioning brains don't take you seriously.

Hayes: 305 plate appearances, .243/.279/.377, 1.2 war
Triolo: 105 plate appearabces, .267/.322/.286, 0.2 war

On what planet is Triolo hitting better than Hayes?

To say nothing of the fact that Triolo hasn't been anywhere near as good defensively as Hayes has been. Unless you listen to Greg Brown.

And saying that a baseball player will be worth $8 million five or six years from now is NOT calling them a good player. You simply do not understand the economics of baseball. As is readily apparent every time you comment on it.

Hayes today is the 185th highest paid player in the game. In other words, not even close to being paid like a top player. If he's 185th today, how high to you think he's going to be five or six years from now? Top 250? Top 300? Lower than that?

 

[NCanton Panther]

This is the reason that people with even semi-functioning brains don't take you seriously.

Hayes: 305 plate appearances, .243/.279/.377, 1.2 war
Triolo: 105 plate appearabces, .267/.322/.286, 0.2 war

On what planet is Triolo hitting better than Hayes?

To say nothing of the fact that Triolo hasn't been anywhere near as good defensively as Hayes has been. Unless you listen to Greg Brown.

And saying that a baseball player will be worth $8 million five or six years from now is NOT calling them a good player. You simply do not understand the economics of baseball. As is readily apparent every time you comment on it.

Hayes today is the 185th highest paid player in the game. In other words, not even close to being paid like a top player. If he's 185th today, how high to you think he's going to be five or six years from now? Top 250? Top 300? Lower than that?

Only with the Pirates could we have multiple long threads covering multiple months jumping all over a guy because he’s calling one of their cornerstone pieces a bust…..and the only argument ever given to counter that assertion is how little he makes. Of course we all know that’s relative…that small amount he makes is small by MLB standards but high by Pirates standards.

Bottom line, PittPoker has always been more right on this debate than you and the numerous other posters jumping all over him because of his claim.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

Only with the Pirates could we have multiple long threads covering multiple months jumping all over a guy because he’s calling one of their cornerstone pieces a bust…..and the only argument ever given to counter that assertion is how little he makes. Of course we all know that’s relative…that small amount he makes is small by MLB standards but high by Pirates standards.

Bottom line, PittPoker has always been more right on this debate than you and the numerous other posters jumping all over him because of his claim.

I remember arguing on Reddit after his one good month in 2020 to pump the brakes. A bunch of people were ready to give him a tatis like contract, or at the very least 150 million. I simply pointed out he’s never hit for extended periods anywhere, and it’s proving the case now.

And I’ll say it for the 100th time, if he was the 5th bear third baseman in the league instead of best he’d be dfa’ed not extended. He makes jack Wilson look like Bobby Bonilla.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Bottom line, PittPoker has always been more right on this debate than you and the numerous other posters jumping all over him because of his claim.

No, he hasn't. Because he has absolutely no conception of how much good MLB players make. And maybe you don't either. Hayes is NOT being paid like a good MLB baseball player. Good baseball players who are selling off free agent years like Hayes did get paid a lot more than Hayes did. Hayes is being paid like a run of the mill veteran player.

It's as if you guys simply cannot fathom that just because he's being paid a lot by Pirates' standards that that doesn't mean he's being paid a lot by MLB standards.

Poker thinks he's a bust because Poker has no idea what an actual major league bust looks like (Austin Hedges anyone?) and he has no idea what mediocre baseball players actually get paid.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Only with the Pirates could we have multiple long threads covering multiple months jumping all over a guy because he’s calling one of their cornerstone pieces a bust…..and the only argument ever given to counter that assertion is how little he makes. Of course we all know that’s relative…that small amount he makes is small by MLB standards but high by Pirates standards.

Bottom line, PittPoker has always been more right on this debate than you and the numerous other posters jumping all over him because of his claim.

Bottom line LOL
A gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hits around .250 while battling a nagging back injury is not a BUST!
A bust is someone who isn't playing MLB anymore.

 

[NCanton Panther]

Bottom line LOL
A gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hits around .250 while battling a nagging back injury is not a BUST!
A bust is someone who isn't playing MLB anymore.

Poker calls him a bust and you get all over him. And all you guys ever come back with is how much/little he makes…..and his .250 batting avg as that’s some positive attribute.

If you’d ever even in the slightest acknowledge his deficiencies maybe you’d have some credibility and could be considered just as right as Poker.

How bout if we call him a disappointment instead of a bust, does that work, or his ‘defense is so great’ and ‘his contract is so small by MLB standards’ that you won’t even concede that?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Poker calls him a bust and you get all over him. And all you guys ever come back with is how much/little he makes…..and his .250 batting avg as that’s some positive attribute.

If you’d ever even in the slightest acknowledge his deficiencies maybe you’d have some credibility and could be considered just as right as Poker.

How bout if we call him a disappointment instead of a bust, does that work, or his ‘defense is so great’ and ‘his contract is so small by MLB standards’ that you won’t even concede that?

He has his limitations. That's for sure. No one ever said he didn't.
Clearly not a power hitter, but still a very serviceable ML player.

Pirate fans, and I'm sure the organization, hope for better production and the Pirates put their $$ down on the bet.

He's a fine young man, doesn't cause any problems. Exceptional fielder, average hitter. But not a bust by any stretch or definition of the word.

Ignore is your friend.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

If you’d ever even in the slightest acknowledge his deficiencies maybe you’d have some credibility and could be considered just as right as Poker.

That's hilarious, because I have said on numerous occasions that he needs to hit better. I keep saying he's not good. I've called him mediocre. Because I have no trouble acknowledging his deficiencies.

But some people, present company included apparently, can't distinguish the difference between "needs to get better" and "is a complete bust".

And believe me, I don't want to considered "just as right as Poker", because "just as right as Poker" means "not right at all'.

 

[PittPoker]

Only with the Pirates could we have multiple long threads covering multiple months jumping all over a guy because he’s calling one of their cornerstone pieces a bust…..and the only argument ever given to counter that assertion is how little he makes. Of course we all know that’s relative…that small amount he makes is small by MLB standards but high by Pirates standards.

Bottom line, PittPoker has always been more right on this debate than you and the numerous other posters jumping all over him because of his claim.

Joe knows all don't you know? He says Hayes is great, Hayes is worth $8-10 million a year even though he can't hit worth a damn, well Joe knows all. It's comical reading his defense of Hayes and his usual minions liking all his posts. Hayes sucks and honestly I think Triolo looks better than him at the plate.

 

[PittPoker]

No, he hasn't. Because he has absolutely no conception of how much good MLB players make. And maybe you don't either. Hayes is NOT being paid like a good MLB baseball player. Good baseball players who are selling off free agent years like Hayes did get paid a lot more than Hayes did. Hayes is being paid like a run of the mill veteran player.

It's as if you guys simply cannot fathom that just because he's being paid a lot by Pirates' standards that that doesn't mean he's being paid a lot by MLB standards.

Poker thinks he's a bust because Poker has no idea what an actual major league bust looks like (Austin Hedges anyone?) and he has no idea what mediocre baseball players actually get paid.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

He says Hayes is great

Once again, show me one time where I said anything even close to that. You've failed twice so far, let's make it three!

 

[PittPoker]

Once again, show me one time where I said anything even close to that. You've failed twice so far, let's make it three!

The fact you think he is worth that awful contract when he is an abysmal hitter means you think he is good. Newsflash, he ain't.

 

[Ski11585]

The fact you think he is worth that awful contract when he is an abysmal hitter means you think he is good. Newsflash, he ain't.

Dude. You'd have way more people agree with you if you didn't resort to hyperbole 100% of the time.

He's not a bust. He's not an abysmal hitter. He needs to hit for more power, but once again he's right around league average for batting average.

Nuance is your friend, Poker.

And quit misrepresenting people! Find quotes from Joe or me where we call Hayes a stud.

 

[PittPoker]

Dude. You'd have way more people agree with you if you didn't resort to hyperbole 100% of the time.

He's not a bust. He's not an abysmal hitter. He needs to hit for more power, but once again he's right around league average for batting average.

Nuance is your friend, Poker.

And quit misrepresenting people! Find quotes from Joe or me where we call Hayes a stud.

He is a bust and is an abysmal hitter.