OT: Pirates trade Melancon

[Pittguy1980]

Well, at least on here there are some Pirate fans who are actually level headed, and only a couple people who go full on crazy with the Nutting crap like TD, Del, and MVK. You guys should read the change in atmosphere board and MLB website pirates message board if you want to see lunacy and every poster be like those guys.

As this trade goes, it is not a salary dump, and they should NEVER sign Melancon to a 12 million a year deal. They had to move him. Rivera is the key in the deal. He is a power guy, sounds like he has a great change up, and has the potential to move into the closer role very soon. His number are quite good, and the biggest thing is his WHIP and H/9 are extremely low.

The funny thing is, the same suspects do the exact same thing after every trade. They are never going to wait and see what happens because bashing fits their agenda. It is rather sad and comical at the same time.

I don't know if the trade will work out. I am fairly satisfied with it right now, but I am not going to make a fool of myself making huge proclamations about the trade like the nutting haters are.

 

[drp1tt]

Closer is the most overrated position in baseball and Melancon was the most overrated player at that overrated position. His save numbers were good but he rarely just came in and nailed it down without drama.

People comparing him to Chapman need to get real. Chapman is a lights out closer. Melancon is a fingers crossed closer.

Please stop with the "raised the white flag" and "giving up on the season" nonsense. The guy wasn't that good. Frankly I'm glad he's gone. I'm sick of seeing him come in and routinely put guys on base before barely squirming out with a nail biter save.

No problem with the deal. He was gone after this season anyway. Watson or Feliz can be as just as effective, if not more.

I agree mostly with your thoughts except Watson and Felix haven't been the most effective either this year. From a fan, not a person, perspective, Melancon drove me crazy every time he came in. Had very few clean innings and I also had too many finger crossed moments.

 

[joeydavid]

Answer this question- if the Pirates are "always sellers" how could it be that only 2 of their top 30 prospects (Brault and Tarpley) have been acquired via trade?

Btw, that trade was an off season move for a 4th outfielder in Snyder. Try thinking for a moment before typing about things you have no facts to back up.

When is the time to deal Andrew M? Cause you know it's coming , and when is Cole up, cause he will be traded then as well, all for 2023. Pirates time is never now, it's always next year. Mark M trade isn't a big deal to be honest, it's just typical Pirates, and we are sellers always, don't believe different, we do the JOBS, get paid well for it

 

[Teh Teh]

Wow the Cardinals gave up their number 10 prospect for Zach Duke.

Andrew Miller got a huge haul for him too.

I understand the view that we would get nothing for MM at years end but that's like giving away your corvette for a thousand dollars cause some day it will be worth less. We sold at below average market value

 

[TD_istheman]

Like ESPN just said, PIRATES GAVE UP, agree, but fireworks next Friday.

I hope we got/get fair retirn for MM, and next year, what are the sheep expectations? I just want to know now, before the excuse making, not getting any quality free agents and selling at deadline, thanks

 

[Teh Teh]

Hey I think.it's great adding free agents like Joyce and then trading them for decent prospects at the deadline.

Jaso is horrid, WAR of 0.1, Alvarez was 0.2 last year. I doubt anyone will trade for him, same with Neise, locke, and company. Bunch of guys that might not be on other teams rosters.

Just a bad year... no one stepped up yet. Good team with mediocre years other than Melancon and marte

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Wow the Cardinals gave up their number 10 prospect for Zach Duke.

Andrew Miller got a huge haul for him too.

I understand the view that we would get nothing for MM at years end but that's like giving away your corvette for a thousand dollars cause some day it will be worth less. We sold at below average market value

Pirates could have gotten more back prospect-wise if they didn't receive Felipe Rivero in return.

They wouldn't have gotten the return that Andrew Miller got, but Miller is also controlled for the next 2 years and is better than Melancon (and he's also going to be making less in 2017 and 2018 than Melancon is making this year). Very, very valuable.

But they definitely would have done far better than Zach Duke's return just purely in terms of prospects.

As it was, they didn't want to take a big step back in the bullpen this year so they brought back another late-inning reliever and just had the Nats tack on a high-beta lefty for good measure.

 

[pittmeister]

Like ESPN just said, PIRATES GAVE UP, agree, but fireworks next Friday.

I hope we got/get fair retirn for MM, and next year, what are the sheep expectations? I just want to know now, before the excuse making, not getting any quality free agents and selling at deadline, thanks

The Pirates don't owe you dick. If they upset you that much, then start following another team and spare us all the idiot rant. It's obvious you are incapable of logical thinking.

 

[pittmeister]

Pirates could have gotten more back prospect-wise if they didn't receive Felipe Rivero in return.

They wouldn't have gotten the return that Andrew Miller got, but Miller is also controlled for the next 2 years and is better than Melancon (and he's also going to be making less in 2017 and 2018 than Melancon is making this year). Very, very valuable.

But they definitely would have done far better than Zach Duke's return just purely in terms of prospects.

As it was, they didn't want to take a big step back in the bullpen this year so they brought back another late-inning reliever and just had the Nats tack on a high-beta lefty for good measure.

Quit being logical. TD hates that.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Like ESPN just said, PIRATES GAVE UP, agree, but fireworks next Friday.

Buster Olney: Melancon is going to be a free agent at year's end; Pirates get five more years of control with Rivero. Plus a prospect. Makes sense for PIT

David Schoenfield: The trade might smell of the Pirates' waving a white flag, but that's definitely not the case.

Keith Law: By landing hard-throwing lefty Felipe Rivero and a prospect, the Pirates did a good job of converting their closer into present and future value.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Like ESPN just said, PIRATES GAVE UP, agree, but fireworks next Friday.

I hope we got/get fair retirn for MM, and next year, what are the sheep expectations? I just want to know now, before the excuse making, not getting any quality free agents and selling at deadline, thanks

I would love to know who said that because literally nothing I've read anywhere -- including ESPN -- has categorized the move as "giving up".

 

[OriginalEther]

The Pirates don't owe you dick. If they upset you that much, then start following another team and spare us all the idiot rant. It's obvious you are incapable of logical thinking.

To paraphrase something I said in another post....certain people, when presented with facts, will just simply double down on their ignorance.

I put Del on ignore a long time ago. TD joined the list back in March. Sadly, I can probably guess word for word what those two are saying.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

When is the time to deal Andrew M? Cause you know it's coming , and when is Cole up, cause he will be traded then as well, all for 2023. Pirates time is never now, it's always next year. Mark M trade isn't a big deal to be honest, it's just typical Pirates, and we are sellers always, don't believe different, we do the JOBS, get paid well for it

Well get ready because the time is coming. Austin Meadows is about a year away, and with Polanco and Marte still not yet at their primes and signed for long term, again it would be irresponsible to not trade McCutcheon. The question is.......can he rebound in play enough to get good value in return.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I would love to know who said that because literally nothing I've read anywhere -- including ESPN -- has categorized the move as "giving up".

They have given up. Let's be honest. They should. They aren't going to make the playoffs. No chance. None. Zero. Too many good teams, too many good teams loading up. I applaud the Pirates not going all in for a last wild card position. Now if they hadn't made the WC the last 3 years, then that is a different story. But this "bridge year" has been a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hopefully lessons learned for the Pirates.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I would love to know who said that because literally nothing I've read anywhere -- including ESPN -- has categorized the move as "giving up".

My guess is that he was reading the comments made by people who understand baseball as little as he does on some story that complimented the Pirates' move.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

They have given up. Let's be honest. They should. They aren't going to make the playoffs. No chance. None. Zero. Too many good teams, too many good teams loading up. I applaud the Pirates not going all in for a last wild card position. Now if they hadn't made the WC the last 3 years, then that is a different story. But this "bridge year" has been a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hopefully lessons learned for the Pirates.

I agree that they should give up and just have a fire sale, but I don't think they have or will. Even in 2011 and 2012 when their teams were objectively bad and competing because of smoke and mirrors, they didn't have fire sales. This team is at least pretty solid, with the potential to be pretty good if McCutchen and Liriano turn it around (which, I agree, is totally unlikely). I think they're far more likely to add during the rest of the deadline than they are to sell, for example. Or, for another example, I don't think they'd have added a late-inning reliever as part of their return for Melancon if they weren't at least still trying to give themselves a chance to compete this year if they catch some breaks.

As for lessons learned, who knows. I still don't think they will -- or should -- sign career back-end starters to multi-year deals when they have a bunch of prospects in AAA who they want to get acclimated. That's not really a "lesson". That's just the nature of the beast.

If there's any lesson to learn from this year, IMO, it's probably that even a guy like Francisco Liriano shouldn't be signed to a free agent contract because at the end of the day he's still a pitcher.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

My guess is that he was reading the comments made by people who understand baseball as little as he does on some story that complimented the Pirates' move.

Or it was like an ex-player who still clings to the notion that saves are valuable and RBI guys are an actual thing that exists.

 

[TD_istheman]

Or like sheep that believe , want to oh so bad, that Nutting is trying to win, I would rather be me, reality!

 

[joeydavid]

Per Tim Williams-

"Out of 33 save opportunities this year, Melancon had 11 with one run, and 12 with three runs or more, not to mention the two games he pitched with four and five run leads that weren’t even save situations. He was the top reliever in the bullpen, and you want your top reliever in for as many high leverage situations as possible. But the save stat prevented the Pirates from fully maximizing his value as a top reliever."

Or it was like an ex-player who still clings to the notion that saves are valuable and RBI guys are an actual thing that exists.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Per Tim Williams-

"Out of 33 save opportunities this year, Melancon had 11 with one run, and 12 with three runs or more, not to mention the two games he pitched with four and five run leads that weren’t even save situations. He was the top reliever in the bullpen, and you want your top reliever in for as many high leverage situations as possible. But the save stat prevented the Pirates from fully maximizing his value as a top reliever."

Pretty much. With a manager like Hurdle (and, now, Dusty Baker), the actual value of the "best reliever" is suppressed.

If Melancon was used in a way that optimized his value (i.e. pitching in the most difficult situations possible, regardless of inning, score, or circumstance) then I think losing him would be much more detrimental.

But, on a team whose manager manages to the save statistic, his actual value is minimal when compared with other late inning relievers. There's as much chance that your 7th inning guy faces the 3-4-5 hitters in a 1-run game as there is that your "closer" faces them in that same situation in the 9th, because the bullpen roles are static while the other team's lineup in those late innings will fluctuate from game-to-game.

Which is why, to me, this trade on paper is late-inning reliever for late-inning reliever plus a prospect. Both guys are going to pitch in close games that your team is winning, with the difficulty of the task purely contingent on who is due up for the other team in the reliever's assigned inning.

 

[Teh Teh]

I actually like trading Melancon. I loved the guy and completely disagree he has slipped much, but with the market for good relievers it was a no brainer.

I actually don't mind the return in general terms. I'm sure those pitchers are good. I'd be shocked if the class a flame thrower doesn't get injured and makes the bigs in a few years. But I like rivera.

My only 'beef' is the return compared to market value. Huntingdon got schooled again. It's easy to trade a player that others all want. When we are trying to get the piece it's more difficult. I think overall this week, other than the padres trading Kemp for a 31 year old prospext player that is currently suspended for severely beating a woman... this Melancon deal will go down as the next most lopsided trade unless we make another today or tomorrow for some marginal pitcher like nova or Matt moore

 

[paulbl99]

Pretty much. With a manager like Hurdle (and, now, Dusty Baker), the actual value of the "best reliever" is suppressed.

If Melancon was used in a way that optimized his value (i.e. pitching in the most difficult situations possible, regardless of inning, score, or circumstance) then I think losing him would be much more detrimental.

But, on a team whose manager manages to the save statistic, his actual value is minimal when compared with other late inning relievers. There's as much chance that your 7th inning guy faces the 3-4-5 hitters in a 1-run game as there is that your "closer" faces them in that same situation in the 9th, because the bullpen roles are static while the other team's lineup in those late innings will fluctuate from game-to-game.

Which is why, to me, this trade on paper is late-inning reliever for late-inning reliever plus a prospect. Both guys are going to pitch in close games that your team is winning, with the difficulty of the task purely contingent on who is due up for the other team in the reliever's assigned inning.

Do you mean the Fireman from was it the 70s ?

 

[Delpanther]

An inning. Not even an inning and a half. It was a trade that they had to make. It isn't popular amongst the bourgeoisie such as Del and other mouth breathers, but it is the right move for this franchise.

Screw you, idiot. You're manic depressive. You flip flop on your positon on issues every other day.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Do you mean the Fireman from was it the 70s ?

Kind of, but not even that specialized. Just put him in the toughest spots. If 3-4-5 is coming up in the 7th, put your best guy in to get them. Or, yeah, use him as a fireman. Or use him multiple innings. Switch it up depending on matchups and how the game is going. There's really no need for inflexible bullpen roles. The only reason they exist is because of the save statistic.

 

[mvk112]

It's hilarious that people continue to support everything NH does. Maybe Melancon doesn't have Chapman's fastball, but his numbers over the past four years has been right on par with him. The Yankees got a top 20, a borderline top 100, and two others. Neal insisted on getting a MLB reliever back, so he got that and the Nats #28 prospect, who's destined to be a RP if he even makes it.

Requesting a MLB reliever back is the height of stupidity. You can find these guys anywhere... Grilli was a waiver pickup, Watson a converted starter that wasn't gonna make it, Hanrahan acquired for Nyjer Morgan, etc. You can find relievers anywhere, why trade your best trade chip for one?

This was an opportunity to add a high level talent to the organization, and he asked for a RP. If you're defending this trade, there is nothing short of trading something like Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz that you'd criticize him for. Funny thing is, people still defend NH for making that trade.

Put down the pom poms, in this market, this trade was completely awful.

NH has failed every time he had a strong trade chip to deal. He should never be a seller, he's just not good at it, it frightens me that he's going to be in charge of dealing Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole.

 

[Delpanther]

Well, at least on here there are some Pirate fans who are actually level headed, and only a couple people who go full on crazy with the Nutting crap like TD, Del, and MVK. You guys should read the change in atmosphere board and MLB website pirates message board if you want to see lunacy and every poster be like those guys.

As this trade goes, it is not a salary dump, and they should NEVER sign Melancon to a 12 million a year deal. They had to move him. Rivera is the key in the deal. He is a power guy, sounds like he has a great change up, and has the potential to move into the closer role very soon. His number are quite good, and the biggest thing is his WHIP and H/9 are extremely low.

The funny thing is, the same suspects do the exact same thing after every trade. They are never going to wait and see what happens because bashing fits their agenda. It is rather sad and comical at the same time.

I don't know if the trade will work out. I am fairly satisfied with it right now, but I am not going to make a fool of myself making huge proclamations about the trade like the nutting haters are.

Yea, you're right it wasn't a salary dump. It was a salary avoidance move which delivered the message to the team that management had given up on the season...Nutsack at his best. The big Yinzer suckers keep backing Nutsack. There are just as many people on my page as yours on their view of Nutsack.

 

[paulbl99]

Kind of, but not even that specialized. Just put him in the toughest spots. If 3-4-5 is coming up in the 7th, put your best guy in to get them. Or, yeah, use him as a fireman. Or use him multiple innings. Switch it up depending on matchups and how the game is going. There's really no need for inflexible bullpen roles. The only reason they exist is because of the save statistic.

There was a discussion about this on MLB about a month ago , that is a look back at the fireman .
But at the end of the day who employs that strategy as you have outlined ?
Every team or nearly so uses a closer not much differently than Hurdle. No?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

It's hilarious that people continue to support everything NH does. Maybe Melancon doesn't have Chapman's fastball, but his numbers over the past four years has been right on par with him. The Yankees got a top 20, a borderline top 100, and two others. Neal insisted on getting a MLB reliever back, so he got that and the Nats #28 prospect, who's destined to be a RP if he even makes it.

Requesting a MLB reliever back is the height of stupidity. You can find these guys anywhere... Grilli was a waiver pickup, Watson a converted starter that wasn't gonna make it, Hanrahan acquired for Nyjer Morgan, etc. You can find relievers anywhere, why trade your best trade chip for one?

This was an opportunity to add a high level talent to the organization, and he asked for a RP. If you're defending this trade, there is nothing short of trading something like Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz that you'd criticize him for. Funny thing is, people still defend NH for making that trade.

Put down the pom poms, in this market, this trade was completely awful.

NH has failed every time he had a strong trade chip to deal. He should never be a seller, he's just not good at it, it frightens me that he's going to be in charge of dealing Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole.

They never sell high, and they never outright sell. The Hanrahan situation was just infuriating. Those 2011 and 2012 teams sucked ass and they wouldn't sell at the deadline because outside opinion was "you have an opportunity to stop the streak, you have to do it". Same with Bay. Held him too long, his knee became an issue, then they have damaged goods and a year less of control to offer. About the best they did was McLouth, who was mediocre to begin with but at least they sold high on him.

They got good surplus value out of the trade with the Nats, but they just kind of split the difference between selling and buying.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

There was a discussion about this on MLB about a month ago , that is a look back at the fireman .
But at the end of the day who employs that strategy as you have outlined ?
Every team or nearly so uses a closer not much differently than Hurdle. No?

A lot do, yes, which is why the general belief now is that you should always look to trade relievers at peak value. Not only are they super volatile commodities, but given how they're used, they aren't overly valuable to a team's success so it's a great opportunity to get some easy surplus value in a trade.

 

[mvk112]

They never sell high, and they never outright sell. The Hanrahan situation was just infuriating. Those 2011 and 2012 teams sucked ass and they wouldn't sell at the deadline because outside opinion was "you have an opportunity to stop the streak, you have to do it".

They got good surplus value out of the trade with the Nats, but they just kind of split the difference between selling and buying.

When your surplus value from trading a very good trade chip is a relief pitcher, it's a failure. Why trade for something that is so easily attainable? Especially when you can add another high end piece? Obviously Giolito, Robles, and Turner were out of the question, but Reynaldo Lopez or Erik Fedde were most likely in play.

 

[mvk112]

They never sell high, and they never outright sell. The Hanrahan situation was just infuriating. Those 2011 and 2012 teams sucked ass and they wouldn't sell at the deadline because outside opinion was "you have an opportunity to stop the streak, you have to do it". Same with Bay. Held him too long, his knee became an issue, then they have damaged goods and a year less of control to offer. About the best they did was McLouth, who was mediocre to begin with but at least they sold high on him.

They got good surplus value out of the trade with the Nats, but they just kind of split the difference between selling and buying.

Bay had a year and a half of control, they chose MLB mediocrity quantity over quality. Did the same with Nady/Marte, who were very good trade pieces at the time.

His insistence on getting MLB players back has hurt every time he's been a seller.

 

[pittguy81]

Yea, you're right it wasn't a salary dump. It was a salary avoidance move which delivered the message to the team that management had given up on the season...Nutsack at his best. The big Yinzer suckers keep backing Nutsack. There are just as many people on my page as yours on their view of Nutsack.

For goodness sake. They have no chance of winning the division and are not likely to even make a wild card spot. They weren't going to tender a 31 year old relief pitcher the $12M+ he would command.

They got two young arms who are by all accounts are electric. They also got 5 years of control over both of of the new guys in exchange for a guy they weren't going to sign who was here for 3 more months. Very good move and anybody who understands baseball would agree. Only mouth breathing Yinzer dopes think this was a bad deal.

 

[Delpanther]

For goodness sake. They have no chance of winning the division and are not likely to even make a wild card spot. They weren't going to tender a 31 year old relief pitcher the $12M+ he would command.

They got two young arms who are by all accounts are electric. They also got 5 years of control over both of of the new guys in exchange for a guy they weren't going to sign who was here for 3 more months. Very good move and anybody who understands baseball would agree. Only mouth breathing Yinzer dopes think this was a bad deal.

Talk to the players, bozo, and ask how they feel about the deal.

 

[pittguy81]

Talk to the players, bozo, and ask how they feel about the deal.

They would understand. It's part of the game. One of the folks who doesn't understand is apparently you.

Sorry to see him go but a very good move considering the circumstances

 

[Delpanther]

They would understand. It's part of the game. One of the folks who doesn't understand is apparently you.

Sorry to see him go but a very good move considering the circumstances

You 're clueless. If you think any Pirate player is happy with the Maloncon trade, you must have had a lobotomy.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

When your surplus value from trading a very good trade chip is a relief pitcher, it's a failure. Why trade for something that is so easily attainable? Especially when you can add another high end piece? Obviously Giolito, Robles, and Turner were out of the question, but Reynaldo Lopez or Erik Fedde were most likely in play.

I mean, surplus value is surplus value but yeah they probably could have gotten someone from the Fedde/Cole/Difo range.

They went for a guy who could pitch in high leverage innings this year and in the future, rather than "punting" this year in the eyes of the fans and media and just gambling on upside. I don't know why it should matter to them, really. They should know most of their fans are barely casual followers of the game.

Like I said, they don't tend to just go crazy and sell. I don't know if they're gun-shy or what but the fanbase and media have proven time and again that they don't know jack so I don't know why it should matter.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Bay had a year and a half of control, they chose MLB mediocrity quantity over quality. Did the same with Nady/Marte, who were very good trade pieces at the time.

His insistence on getting MLB players back has hurt every time he's been a seller.

Bay's knee was more of an issue than the control (he was 30, coming off a -1.0 WAR season, and was one of the worst defensive OF in baseball after all), I'm more saying that if they'd sold prior to that with more control he'd have fetched an even higher price. He was never going to be around when they were good, so there was no reason to not sell him ASAP to maximize his value. But, as usual, they waited because it would have been a bad look to trade him before he started to decline.

In general, MLB players will give you better return than minor leaguers but there's not a whole lot to dream on. I would agree with the sites so far who have said they did well in this trade between balancing a strong future and an even stronger present, but I think in the past they did a really poor job of putting everything into the future. They always seemed to waffle a bit when it wasn't appropriate to (I agree with the writers who are saying it's appropriate now, because it is).

I've said pretty consistently, after all, that they rebuilt well except for their trades. They did not tank nearly as hard as they should have in terms of selling off anything and everything of value. They could have been the Cubs and Astros before the Cubs and Astros, but instead they chose to just kind of build and rebuild simultaneously. They lost for 20 years -- they should have sucked for a few more. Who cares?

I think in general people overrate the players they've traded -- or at least overrate their trade value. Nady was barely replacement level for his career, had a fluky 2008 as a 29 year old, then was well below replacement for the rest of his career. That's not a good trade piece. Teams tend to be dumb, but they aren't THAT dumb. Same for Damaso Marte. And Octavio Dotel. And Mike Gonzalez. And really every guy they traded during their rebuild.

The Pirates were so bad for so long that I think people really had their perspective altered about what a good trade piece is.

 

[mvk112]

That's just revisionist history all around. Jason Bay and Xavier Nady were widely recognized as two of the top three OF trade pieces that deadline, and they chose to go the mediocre MLB quantity over quality route. Damaso Marte was the top lefty reliever in the market in 2008, packaged with Nady, they should've brought back more than a falling prospect and a couple of subpar MLB pitchers.

There's always an excuse for NH, every single time. Knowing his history of selling, do you have any confidence at all in him that he's going to get real value for McCutchen and Cole?

The best players that he's traded since he's been here... Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Neil Walker, Jose Bautista, Freddy Sanchez, Paul Maholm, Nate McLouth... He's got nothing for. His best deal amongst those was getting Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke. What an embarrassment.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

That's just revisionist history all around. Jason Bay and Xavier Nady were widely recognized as two of the top three OF trade pieces that deadline, and they chose to go the mediocre MLB quantity over quality route. Damaso Marte was the top lefty reliever in the market in 2008, packaged with Nady, they should've brought back more than a falling prospect and a couple of subpar MLB pitchers.

There's always an excuse for NH, every single time. Knowing his history of selling, do you have any confidence at all in him that he's going to get real value for McCutchen and Cole?

The best players that he's traded since he's been here... Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Neil Walker, Jose Bautista, Freddy Sanchez, Paul Maholm, Nate McLouth... He's got nothing for. His best deal amongst those was getting Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke. What an embarrassment.

I don't think it's a whole lot of revisionist history, really. Let's not forget that Tabata was pretty well regarded as a 19-year old in AA, which is more or less what we're saying the Pirates should go for.

Most of the guys you're listing didn't/don't have much trade value. Walker, for instance, was more or less valueless given his salary and general mediocrity on the field. Contracts and control matter when establishing trade value. It's why the Royals were shopping Wade Davis alongside Ian Kennedy this week -- they have no way to move Ian Kennedy without eating most of his contract or attaching him to a valuable player and taking back a PTBNL type as a "return" in a salary dump.

Getting back to the Pirates, Bautista wasn't good for the Pirates, he was a below-replacement level player and was never even a league average hitter for them. Freddy Sanchez wasn't all that good or valuable by the time he was traded (after his fluky 2006 he put up a 102, 74, and 94 wRC+ as a 2B -- the least valuable position on the diamond). Paul Maholm was worse than Jon Niese over his career when he was traded. These guys weren't good players at all. To say that they were, or that they were missed opportunities, is completely disingenuous -- nothing about them suggests they had ANY value.

I have no idea what they'll get for Cole, because I have no idea what Cole will be in several years. If you'd asked me 2 years ago what they would get for McCutchen I would have said they'd get pretty much a brand new farm system for him. But now? I have no expectations for getting anything for McCutchen at this point, because right now McCutchen's trade value is negative. The Pirates would need to eat some of his salary just to move him at this point. He's declining, he's almost 30, and he's getting expensive -- there's not much going for him in terms of his trade value going forward. He's currently underperforming his salary and it's going to be tough to sell a team on "he's still in his prime, he'll bounce back and if he doesn't he's still cheap!"

 

[TD_istheman]

If the Pirates are serious next year, they will sign a stud SP and a stud 1st baseman, and send Harrison packing for a better 2nd baseman.

Also, Nutting is always a seller, or a salary avoider, ALWAYS!