OT: Pirates trade Melancon

[mvk112]

All I ever read from PittBaseball is excuse excuse excuse. Jose Bautista was putting up 95 OPS+/15+ HR seasons and playing good defense all over the field. Even if he never broke out as he did, that's a ton more value than they got for him. And the fact that they couldn't recognize the talent he did indeed have, is another pock mark against NH.

Jason Bay was fully recovered and his play was back in line with his 2004-2006 numbers. You're really suggesting they should've traded him during his down year when he was hurt? Or in the offseason right after? That's about as dumb as the people who want to trade McCutchen now.

Neil Walker is a 2B who hits 15+ HR and has a wRC+ in the 115 range every year and is adequate in the field. His trade value was much more than a bad pitcher who was taken out of the rotation last year. But Neal had to get his holy grail, three one year options... nevermind the actual player returned is worthless. Walker was a consistent 2.7 WAR player and it certainly looks like he's gonna be right there again this year. You haven't been paying attention to trades around baseball the past couple years if you think Neil Walker had no value. At the very worst, you keep him, and not downgrade two positions (SP and 2B).

You're crazy if you think the Pirates would have to eat salary just to deal McCutchen. But that's just the setup and rationalization you're gonna use to excuse NH for yet another mediocre trade when it happens.

Excuse excuse excuse.

I seriously can't believe you just excused NH for trading Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz. That is peak cheerleader right there.

 

[mvk112]

If the Pirates are serious next year, they will sign a stud SP and a stud 1st baseman, and send Harrison packing for a better 2nd baseman.

Also, Nutting is always a seller, or a salary avoider, ALWAYS!

There is no free agent SP available this year that is worthwhile, which makes it even more ridiculous that they didn't go hard after a real option this past offseason.

As for 1B, them continuing to run Jaso out there instead of bringing up Bell is beyond stupid. They should've just kept Bell up here and had him start from the time he was up here previously.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

All I ever read from PittBaseball is excuse excuse excuse. Jose Bautista was putting up 95 OPS+/15+ HR seasons and playing good defense all over the field. Even if he never broke out as he did, that's a ton more value than they got for him. And the fact that they couldn't recognize the talent he did indeed have, is another pock mark against NH.

Jason Bay was fully recovered and his play was back in line with his 2004-2006 numbers. You're really suggesting they should've traded him during his down year when he was hurt? Or in the offseason right after? That's about as dumb as the people who want to trade McCutchen now.

Neil Walker is a 2B who hits 15+ HR and has a wRC+ in the 115 range every year and is adequate in the field. His trade value was much more than a bad pitcher who was taken out of the rotation last year. But Neal had to get his holy grail, three one year options... nevermind the actual player returned is worthless. Walker was a consistent 2.7 WAR player and it certainly looks like he's gonna be right there again this year. You haven't been paying attention to trades around baseball the past couple years if you think Neil Walker had no value. At the very worst, you keep him, and not downgrade two positions (SP and 2B).

You're crazy if you think the Pirates would have to eat salary just to deal McCutchen. But that's just the setup and rationalization you're gonna use to excuse NH for yet another mediocre trade when it happens.

Excuse excuse excuse.

I seriously can't believe you just excused NH for trading Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz. That is peak cheerleader right there.

LOL.

Yes, they could have gotten a ton for a guy who was below replacement level in Bautista. Bautista was more worthless than Travis Snider, for instance.

I am saying they should have traded Jason Bay when he put up 5-win seasons as a 27 and 28 year old. They weren't close to competing and he was in his prime. Instead, they waited to trade him even though he was never going to be good when they were good -- he was too old. He should have been traded before the knee was an issue. Bottom line.

You can paint Walker however you want but he was a 2.0-2.5 WAR player over his career who is/was at the end of his prime and profiles terribly when it comes to aging. His surplus value was negligible, given his contract. He essentially fetched a mirror image of himself. A career 2-win player who was past his prime and due to make about $10MM. Factor in a slight premium in the form of club options to account for pitcher vs hitter volatility and voila, there's your Walker for Niese trade.

I would agree with Huntington that in hindsight they'd have been better off taking a couple of fringe prospects, but I'd also believe him when he says that's all Walker is worth.

I don't really care about HR or anything like that. I don't really care for any stat derived from OPS or ERA, either. They're garbage stats, so even adjusting them for park factors is still injecting a lot of garbage into the equation. So, you can use them, but you aren't going to convince me of anything with them.

 

[mvk112]

You really need to stop this nonsense about Walker being a 2 WAR player. He was a 2.7-3.4 WAR player just about his entire career, he was never a 2 WAR player, and he is gonna be over 2.5 WAR again this year. Your slant on Walker as a player and this deal is so far off base it's ridiculous.

There is no way you trade Jason Bay after his 2nd or 3rd year in the league. That's just about the most worthless thing you've posted, and you've posted a lot of worthless things to try to defend NH, not the least if which is defending him for trading Bautista for Robinson Diaz.

His entire job is to access talent. Jose Bautista had the talent to become the tip RH hitter in baseball for about 4 or 5 years straight. NH traded him during his fourth season for a catcher who would not even become a backup catcher in the majors. And he traded him because NH didn't like Bautista's attitude about being replaced by Andy F'n LaRoche. Astute judge of talent, NH is.

Excuse excuse excuse.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You really need to stop this nonsense about Walker being a 2 WAR player. He was a 2.7-3.4 WAR player just about his entire career, he was never a 2 WAR player, and he is gonna be over 2.5 WAR again this year. Your slant on Walker as a player and this deal is so far off base it's ridiculous.

There is no way you trade Jason Bay after his 2nd or 3rd year in the league. That's just about the most worthless thing you've posted, and you've posted a lot of worthless things to try to defend NH, not the least if which is defending him for trading Bautista for Robinson Diaz.

His entire job is to access talent. Jose Bautista had the talent to become the tip RH hitter in baseball for about 4 or 5 years straight. NH traded him during his fourth season for a catcher who would not even become a backup catcher in the majors. And he traded him because NH didn't like Bautista's attitude about being replaced by Andy F'n LaRoche. Astute judge of talent, NH is.

Excuse excuse excuse.

Oh good lord. Captain Hindsight coming back with a vengeance with Bautista. Let's just not forget to kill all of the teams who passed on the players who wound up being good for the Pirates these past few years, given that this is a meritocracy and development/success is clearly linear.

Walker was above a 2.7 WAR player once in his career. He showed signs of decline with the bat last year and is showing further declines this year. What am I supposed to say? That I believe a small sample of defensive metrics and he's now a competent defender at 2B despite never being one before?

 

[mvk112]

One thing I find pretty I retesting about this season.... through this rise the past four years from 2012-2015, the three faces of the franchise and most consistent players were McCutchen, Walker, and Marte. None of the three were acquired by NH. Now, in 2016, with McCutchen struggling and Walker gone, the team is looking increasingly like a sub .500 team. They are a game above .500 right now, just got swept by the Brewers, and head I to a series where two of the three scheduled pitchers are Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong.

This is what NH has built? A club that is struggling to stay .500 without Walker and a MVP level Cutch (again, 2 players NH inherited) that is throwing Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong out there?

I can see why you are so vigorously defending him at all costs. LOL.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

One thing I find pretty I retesting about this season.... through this rise the past four years from 2012-2015, the three faces of the franchise and most consistent players were McCutchen, Walker, and Marte. None of the three were acquired by NH. Now, in 2016, with McCutchen struggling and Walker gone, the team is looking increasingly like a sub .500 team. They are a game above .500 right now, just got swept by the Brewers, and head I to a series where two of the three scheduled pitchers are Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong.

This is what NH has built? A club that is struggling to stay .500 without Walker and a MVP level Cutch (again, 2 players NH inherited) that is throwing Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong out there?

I can see why you are so vigorously defending him at all costs. LOL.

Interesting. The guys who are hitting their 30's and a guy signed in the year Huntington took over are the main pieces of their contention window so far. That's definitely really weird, I think you're on to something. There's no way Gregory Polanco or Gerrit Cole could ever live up to the lofty standards of Neil Walker by the time they're 30.

 

[mvk112]

Oh good lord. Captain Hindsight coming back with a vengeance with Bautista. Let's just not forget to kill all of the teams who passed on the players who wound up being good for the Pirates these past few years, given that this is a meritocracy and development/success is clearly linear.

Walker was above a 2.7 WAR player once in his career. He showed signs of decline with the bat last year and is showing further declines this year. What am I supposed to say? That I believe a small sample of defensive metrics and he's now a competent defender at 2B despite never being one before?

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. You're really sure you want to be on the side that says it was okay for NH to trade Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz?

Because what, he didn't want to pay Bautista $2.5M in arbitration? Because Andy LaRoche needed to play? Because the Pirates couldn't recognize the talent Bautista was?

You called Neil Walker a 2 WAR player. He was never a 2 WAR player except his four month rookie season, when he was 1.9 in 110 games, which is a 2.8 WAR over a full season. He's on pace for 3.0 WAR this season. You are really reaching here, and are looking pretty foolish in doing so.

 

[mvk112]

Interesting. The guys who are hitting their 30's and a guy signed in the year Huntington took over are the main pieces of their contention window so far. That's definitely really weird, I think you're on to something. There's no way Gregory Polanco or Gerrit Cole could ever live up to the lofty standards of Neil Walker by the time they're 30.

What's their record?

They were carried by guys that NH didn't acquire. Now that Cutch is having a down season and Walker isn't around, NH doesn't look like quite the genius, huh?

Just remember, NH chose Robinzon Diaz and Andy LaRoche over Jose Bautista, and Jon Niese and Josh Harrison over Neil Walker.

He continues to choose John Jaso over Josh Bell.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. You're really sure you want to be on the side that says it was okay for NH to trade Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz?

Because what, he didn't want to pay Bautista $2.5M in arbitration? Because Andy LaRoche needed to play? Because the Pirates couldn't recognize the talent Bautista was?

You called Neil Walker a 2 WAR player. He was never a 2 WAR player except his four month rookie season, when he was 1.9 in 110 games, which is a 2.8 WAR over a full season. He's on pace for 3.0 WAR this season. You are really reaching here, and are looking pretty foolish in doing so.

I'm saying I don't think trading a guy who had been below replacement level for his career and couldn't hit at a league average level as a corner player is egregious. 99% of the time, that guy is going to be that same player for most of his career.

He became good. That's fine. AJ Burnett was good here, but I don't think the Yankees made a mistake by trading him for nothing and paying a chunk of his salary. He was bad there. Stuff happens.

I said Walker was a 2.0-2.5 WAR player. A week ago he had been benched for a couple of days and was on pace to be a 2.0 WAR player. As always, let's let things play out. He's had a hot couple of days but was horrible for 2 months before that after a torrid April. Let things normalize.

Wasn't long ago you were pounding the table for Jordan Zimmermann and Jeff Samardzija.

 

[mvk112]

I really hope you enjoy watching Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong pitch this week. With any luck, we'll get to see Josh Harrison play 2B with his 25th best (of 25 qualified 2B) OBP (not to mention 24th best wRC+), and Jon Niese come on in relief.

NH, what a GM!

 

[Pittbaseball11]

What's their record?

They were carried by guys that NH didn't acquire. Now that Cutch is having a down season and Walker isn't around, NH doesn't look like quite the genius, huh?

Just remember, NH chose Robinzon Diaz and Andy LaRoche over Jose Bautista, and Jon Niese and Josh Harrison over Neil Walker.

He continues to choose John Jaso over Josh Bell.

I don't think they're having a bad season because they're missing Neil Walker or that there was any indication that Jose Bautista would be good.

Sorry for having such hot takes.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I really hope you enjoy watching Jeff Locke and Ryan Vogelsong pitch this week. With any luck, we'll get to see Josh Harrison play 2B with his 25th best (of 25 qualified 2B) OBP (not to mention 24th best wRC+), and Jon Niese come on in relief.

NH, what a GM!

Do you promise to come back and cherry pick all of the negative aspects while this happens?

The only way I can fully enjoy it is if the tin foil hat wearers come and tell me their myopic viewpoints.

 

[mvk112]

I'm saying I don't think trading a guy who had been below replacement level for his career and couldn't hit at a league average level as a corner player is egregious. 99% of the time, that guy is going to be that same player for most of his career.

He became good. That's fine. AJ Burnett was good here, but I don't think the Yankees made a mistake by trading him for nothing and paying a chunk of his salary. He was bad there. Stuff happens.

I said Walker was a 2.0-2.5 WAR player. A week ago he had been benched for a couple of days and was on pace to be a 2.0 WAR player. As always, let's let things play out. He's had a hot couple of days but was horrible for 2 months before that after a torrid April. Let things normalize.

Wasn't long ago you were pounding the table for Jordan Zimmermann and Jeff Samardzija.

How was a guy who has a 2 WAR in July on pace to be a 2 WAR player? You're reaching realllllllllly far there.

So I'm putting you down in favor of Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz? Go Neal! You can do no wrong!

And yes, I would gladly take Zimmerman, and Maeda, and Cueto, and Happ, as I suggested. And I'd take Samardzija before trading Walker for Niese, as I said.

 

[mvk112]

Do you promise to come back and cherry pick all of the negative aspects while this happens?

The only way I can fully enjoy it is if the tin foil hat wearers come and tell me their myopic viewpoints.

As long as you keep that cheerleading skirt on and continuing waving the pom poms for NH. Love the great viewpoint that a player who is on pace for 3 WAR after averaging 2.8 WAR the previous 5 years is actually a 2 WAR player and had no value. And that Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz was a good trade.

Good job, good effort. Keep waving those Pom Poms.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

How was a guy who has a 2 WAR in July on pace to be a 2 WAR player? You're reaching realllllllllly far there.

So I'm putting you down in favor of Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz? Go Neal! You can do no wrong!

And yes, I would gladly take Zimmerman, and Maeda, and Cueto, and Happ, as I suggested. And I'd take Samardzija before trading Walker for Niese, as I said.

He was a 1.4 WAR player last week. He had a hot couple of days after his benching. Like I said, let it play out. He was fantastic in April but scuffled since. Maybe he's hot again but he hasn't exactly been steady.

I don't really have a strong opinion on Bautista for Diaz. Sorry. It would be like being outraged over trading Alex Dickerson for Jaff Decker now that Alex Dickerson has been good for San Diego.

You have used hindsight very well in your pitching evaluation. I'll give you that. Zimmermann doesn't do the Pirates much good on the DL and Samardzija is a bit unrelated to Walker and Niese but, I mean, whatever. Cheap Nuttings and whatnot, amirite?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

As long as you keep that cheerleading skirt on and continuing waving the pom poms for NH. Love the great viewpoint that a player who is on pace for 3 WAR after averaging 2.8 WAR the previous 5 years is actually a 2 WAR player and had no value. And that Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz was a good trade.

Good job, good effort. Keep waving those Pom Poms.

LOL. You like to play the "this guy has a career wRC+ of...." when there's like 1 year that skews the average massively.

Walker has been better than a 2.7 WAR player once in his career, but you add in that 3.5 WAR fluke year and he's now a guy who averages 2.8 WAR.

I'll keep waving pom-poms, you keep doing mental gymnastics.

On the bright side though, Cutch is 29 so he's still in the middle of his prime, right? This year is just a minor blip, he's got another 4-5 years of 5 win production ahead of him.

 

[mvk112]

OMG a pitcher went on the DL, that's the end of his career I guess. Really? The guy will be back in a week, he's starting in AAA tomorrow. He's been really good in Detroit.

As for Samardzija and Niese being unrelated, the entire reason you are bringing him up now is because I said I'd much rather they signed Samardzija than trading Walker for Niese. Niese is awful, he was awful last year, and it was easy to see he was going to be awful this year.

Nutting is cheap for sure, but NH exasperates things by wasting a bunch of money each year on crap parts instead of spending that money on legitimate talent.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

OMG a pitcher went on the DL, that's the end of his career I guess. Really? The guy will be back in a week, he's starting in AAA tomorrow. He's been really good in Detroit.

As for Samardzija and Niese being unrelated, the entire reason you are bringing him up now is because I said I'd much rather they signed Samardzija than trading Walker for Niese. Niese is awful, he was awful last year, and it was easy to see he was going to be awful this year.

Nutting is cheap for sure, but NH exasperates things by wasting a bunch of money each year on crap parts instead of spending that money on legitimate talent.

You were super concerned about the Pirates this year. Said that it doesn't matter if you eat the back end of a bad contract, this is the time to spend. So, Zimmermann on the DL is a huge deal for 2016 given the Pirates' issues with Cole and Liriano this year.

I'm merely using your logic. Your were up in arms about 2016. Zimmermann isn't saving the Pirates in 2016 given the amount of time he has missed.

I'm bringing up Samardzija because you said he was obviously worth $18MM a year and, now that time has passed and he's become Jeff Samardzija again, he's clearly not. He isn't an example of "talent". He's an example of a 4th starter getting paid a ton of money to be a 4th starter on a team with no internal options.

It's just not worth getting worked up over things in such a small sample's worth of time, which is what you're doing. You're teeth gnashing over 2016 when it's really not worth teeth gnashing over.

 

[mvk112]

LOL. You like to play the "this guy has a career wRC+ of...." when there's like 1 year that skews the average massively.

Walker has been better than a 2.7 WAR player once in his career, but you add in that 3.5 WAR fluke year and he's now a guy who averages 2.8 WAR.

I'll keep waving pom-poms, you keep doing mental gymnastics.

On the bright side though, Cutch is 29 so he's still in the middle of his prime, right? This year is just a minor blip, he's got another 4-5 years of 5 win production ahead of him.

Walker has literally been at 2.6 or 2.7 his entire career outside of one really good year and one somewhat down year (2.4 war). He's on pace for 3 WAR this year. Keep that spinning for NH, he's gonna reward you real well in the end I'm sure.

I will bet that Andrew McCutchen gets his control of the strike zone back and becomes close to the player he was. His struggles right now are not physical, it's his grasp of the strike zone, and swinging at bad pitches. He's swinging at a lot more pitches right now, especially outside the strike zone. His zone contact rate is consistent with his prior percentage, his outside the zone contact is way down. When you swing at more pitches outside the zone and make less contact on this pitches, you walk less and strikeout more. This is something that is much easier to correct than a loss of about to hit pitches in the zone or drastically lowered HR/GB rate (loss of power). Those two are consistent with his prior three seasons.

Cutch will get control of the zone back and he's going to be close to the player he was.

 

[mvk112]

Zimmerman missing a month isn't really a huge deal. Cole missed a month last year. So did Burnett. I believe Liriano did too, I know he did in 2013 and 2014. Having Zimmerman there instead of Niese, Locke, or Nicasio would have been really nice. It's be really nice to have him the final 7 weeks too.

And I'd still take Samardzija over Niese, and will for the next five years.

 

[mvk112]

And yes, I am 'teeth gnashing' over 2016. They went into the season with JEFF LOCKE, JUAN NICASIO, AND JON NIESE in their rotation. They kept those three in the rotation until July. Their backup option was RYAN VOGELSONG.

if you aren't disgusted by the front office for punting on a season after winning 98 games, then you're clearly a fan of the front office, not the team, and will go to any lengths (including defending trading Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz) to defend NH.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

And yes, I am 'teeth gnashing' over 2016. They went into the season with JEFF LOCKE, JUAN NICASIO, AND JON NIESE in their rotation. They kept those three in the rotation until July. Their backup option was RYAN VOGELSONG.

if you aren't disgusted by the front office for punting on a season after winning 98 games, then you're clearly a fan of the front office, not the team, and will go to any lengths (including defending trading Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz) to defend NH.

Then why do you care about whether they got Jordan Zimmermann or Jeff Samardzija?

Zimmermann has been hurt so he's not compensating for Cole missing time, Cutch scuffling, and Liriano struggling. Samardzija is Samardzija. Neither does anything to help materially in 2016.

You can argue Samardzija over Niese for the next 5 years, but that was never the actual argument and is also irrelevant to 2016. Rather than being Samardzija vs Niese it was Samardzija vs Glasnow/Taillon/Kingham/prospect of your choice and whatever they can get with the $18MM saved on Samardzija.

It seems like you just want that mental baby blanket of "they tried because they spent money and that somehow means something".

 

[Delpanther]

That's just revisionist history all around. Jason Bay and Xavier Nady were widely recognized as two of the top three OF trade pieces that deadline, and they chose to go the mediocre MLB quantity over quality route. Damaso Marte was the top lefty reliever in the market in 2008, packaged with Nady, they should've brought back more than a falling prospect and a couple of subpar MLB pitchers.

There's always an excuse for NH, every single time. Knowing his history of selling, do you have any confidence at all in him that he's going to get real value for McCutchen and Cole?

The best players that he's traded since he's been here... Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Neil Walker, Jose Bautista, Freddy Sanchez, Paul Maholm, Nate McLouth... He's got nothing for. His best deal amongst those was getting Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke. What an embarrassment.

NH is a fraud, like his two bosses.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Yea, you're right it wasn't a salary dump. It was a salary avoidance move which delivered the message to the team that management had given up on the season...Nutsack at his best. The big Yinzer suckers keep backing Nutsack. There are just as many people on my page as yours on their view of Nutsack.

What would have you done?

 

[Delpanther]

What would have you done?

The Pirates are less than a handful of games out of the wildcard spot. I would have assessed his trade value and if I couldn't get anymore than the garbage they received for him, instead of telling the team that I was unequivocally going to raise the white flag this year, I would have kept him and assessed whether I could resign him in the off season. If not(which is likely the case), then I would have said good-by to him understanding : first, I was trying to get into the playoffs and that was the paramount objective( this is what they're telling the team)and second, what I could have received in trade value wasn't worth giving up on the season. In my opinion, that's better than surrendering the season and trading him NOW for garbage and essentially telling the team on August 1 that for all intents and purposes the season is over. The garbage the Pirates received in this trade is irrelevant in the whole scheme of things. Prospects, prospects, prospects...in every trade NH has made in similar circumstances he's never gotten back squat in the trade. Add to that, Watson has been more inconsistent this year than any other year and you're going to make him the closer? NH continually fascinated by guys that throw the bll over 95mph whether they can pitch or not.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pirates are less than a handful of games out of the wildcard spot. I would have assessed his trade value and if I couldn't get anymore than the garbage they received for him, instead of telling the team that I was unequivocally going to raise the white flag this year, I would have kept him and assessed whether I could resign him in the off season. If not(which is likely the case), then I would have said good-by to him understanding : first, I was trying to get into the playoffs and that was the paramount objective( this is what they're telling the team)and second, what I could have received in trade value wasn't worth giving up on the season. In my opinion, that's better than surrendering the season and trading him NOW for garbage and essentially telling the team on August 1 that for all intents and purposes the season is over. The garbage the Pirates received in this trade is irrelevant in the whole scheme of things. Prospects, prospects, prospects...in every trade NH has made in similar circumstances he's never gotten back squat in the trade. Add to that, Watson has been more inconsistent this year than any other year and you're going to make him the closer? NH continually fascinated by guys that throw the bll over 95mph whether they can pitch or not.

They just played 3 games against the Brewers were Melancon had no value to them. They aren't making the playoffs this year. They were nor shouldn't they have resigned him. So they got some value in return for him.

Where the Pirates effed up was the horrible Walker trade and not signing Happ. That greased the wheels. Then Cutch and Liriano performing well below their expectations and it is as they say...

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Oh and Del, i also do agree with you, I think Pittbaseball11 is either related to Huntingdon or Nutting, because the Pirates have never made a bad move in his eyes.

 

[Delpanther]

They just played 3 games against the Brewers were Melancon had no value to them. They aren't making the playoffs this year. They were nor shouldn't they have resigned him. So they got some value in return for him.

Where the Pirates effed up was the horrible Walker trade and not signing Happ. That greased the wheels. Then Cutch and Liriano performing well below their expectations and it is as they say...

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They got some "Value?" LOL. Whatever, they're going no place with Nutsack as owner. The last 3 years will be a distant memory soon and the Pirates will be a sub .500 team shortly.

 

[TD_istheman]

This place is like bizzaro world. Everyone outside of here that knows baseball, thinks Nutting and his Co horts are frauds. This is not about winning baseball games.

I would have more respect for the sheep if they were honest , and admitted the Pirates are used as a tool for the tool to make money PERIOD

I am just in shock people still defend this organization.

We did NOT get value for MM, we got the 2 indian boys in the field throwing rocks again. I hope when we can't resign any of our current good players , Cole, Cutch, and I'm sure Kang when his time is up, we have another GM in place, to not get taken to the cleaners like normal

 

[TD_istheman]

BTW, I am better than Locke, Neise, and VSong. So is half the board

 

[mvk112]

Then why do you care about whether they got Jordan Zimmermann or Jeff Samardzija?

Zimmermann has been hurt so he's not compensating for Cole missing time, Cutch scuffling, and Liriano struggling. Samardzija is Samardzija. Neither does anything to help materially in 2016.

You can argue Samardzija over Niese for the next 5 years, but that was never the actual argument and is also irrelevant to 2016. Rather than being Samardzija vs Niese it was Samardzija vs Glasnow/Taillon/Kingham/prospect of your choice and whatever they can get with the $18MM saved on Samardzija.

It seems like you just want that mental baby blanket of "they tried because they spent money and that somehow means something".

Because if they went into the season with a real rotation, one that didn't include Jon Niese, Jeff Locke, and Juan Nicasio, then they'd very much be in the race for the division with the Cubs. Those three have been amongst the very worst starters in the NL in 2016. There is a diretc correlation between 60% of your rotation being garbage before the season even starts and not being competitive for the NL Central this year.

And now this joker wants to acquire yet another garbage pitcher in Nathan Eovaldi, for a package that includes Brault. Which us ridiculous because Brault is better than Eovaldi to begin with.

 

[pittmeister]

BTW, I am better than Locke, Neise, and VSong. So is half the board

What a tool!!!

 

[mvk112]

What a tool!!!

I agree, NH is a tool for going into the season with Niese, Locke, Nicasio in the rotation and Vogelsong the backup plan.

 

[Jpripper88]

Wow the Cardinals gave up their number 10 prospect for Zach Duke.

Andrew Miller got a huge haul for him too.

I understand the view that we would get nothing for MM at years end but that's like giving away your corvette for a thousand dollars cause some day it will be worth less. We sold at below average market value

Completely wrong.

The Pirates got incredible value for an average RP who was a pure rental. Miller has 2.5 seasons of control and is much, much better.

 

[Jpripper88]

This place is like bizzaro world. Everyone outside of here that knows baseball, thinks Nutting and his Co horts are frauds. This is not about winning baseball games.

I would have more respect for the sheep if they were honest , and admitted the Pirates are used as a tool for the tool to make money PERIOD

I am just in shock people still defend this organization.

We did NOT get value for MM, we got the 2 indian boys in the field throwing rocks again. I hope when we can't resign any of our current good players , Cole, Cutch, and I'm sure Kang when his time is up, we have another GM in place, to not get taken to the cleaners like normal

Except everyone who knows baseball, outside of a few on here, thinks the Pirates made a very good trade dealing Melancon.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

It's hilarious that people continue to support everything NH does. Maybe Melancon doesn't have Chapman's fastball, but his numbers over the past four years has been right on par with him. The Yankees got a top 20, a borderline top 100, and two others. Neal insisted on getting a MLB reliever back, so he got that and the Nats #28 prospect, who's destined to be a RP if he even makes it.

Requesting a MLB reliever back is the height of stupidity. You can find these guys anywhere... Grilli was a waiver pickup, Watson a converted starter that wasn't gonna make it, Hanrahan acquired for Nyjer Morgan, etc. You can find relievers anywhere, why trade your best trade chip for one?

This was an opportunity to add a high level talent to the organization, and he asked for a RP. If you're defending this trade, there is nothing short of trading something like Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz that you'd criticize him for. Funny thing is, people still defend NH for making that trade.

Put down the pom poms, in this market, this trade was completely awful.

NH has failed every time he had a strong trade chip to deal. He should never be a seller, he's just not good at it, it frightens me that he's going to be in charge of dealing Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole.

You're problem is you think Melancon would have brought a boatload of high level talent, which would not be the case........This isn't fantasy baseball.........

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

They have given up. Let's be honest. They should. They aren't going to make the playoffs. No chance. None. Zero. Too many good teams, too many good teams loading up. I applaud the Pirates not going all in for a last wild card position. Now if they hadn't made the WC the last 3 years, then that is a different story. But this "bridge year" has been a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hopefully lessons learned for the Pirates.

and let's be honest here Owt, this bridge year would have been a whole lot better if the supposed veteran stars of the team would have performed this year

 

[TD_istheman]

I agree, NH is a tool for going into the season with Niese, Locke, Nicasio in the rotation and Vogelsong the backup plan.

You can't even defend this rotation, without being looked at like a jackass!

 

[TD_istheman]

Except everyone who knows baseball, outside of a few on here, thinks the Pirates made a very good trade dealing Melancon.

How about Walker? ?? How about the others before him, care to defend ? This organization gets ZERO benefit of the doubt , except from human Bobble heads