OT: The forgotten PENS
- Thread starter NCanton Panther
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Full trade details… form the prospect rankings I’ve seen, I’m not sure I’m a fan of this return. Time will tell.
6-0 loss tonight. Can we start thinking about the lottery now? Lol. Do we have a pick?
It's hard to get too excited about the unknown...but his objective was probably met from the trade. He got a veteran serviceable NHL forward that has been a 20 goal scorer a couple times and adds an irritable element to the lineup. Bunting is not adverse to dropping the gloves if needed.
Three young forward prospects that were mostly higher draft picks ( two were 2nd round picks ) that you hope translates into possible NHL caliber players. A late 1st round draft pick depending on what Carolina does in the playoffs ( could become 2nd round pick ).
Ty Smith may end up being a workable undersized offensive defenseman, but struggled to find a permanent spot on the big club. Obviously the key to the trade is the unknown potential of the young forwards the deal brought.
Given the circumstances of Gentzel being a UFA, Dubas probably got what he could with the objective of restocking the future pipeline. Time will tell.
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You have to assume that he got the best return he could. What else were you going to do, keep Guentzel, miss the playoffs anyway and then lose him in free agency? Tomorrow may prove interesting, too. It's looking more and more like the team has packed it in, anyway. Boston and Edmonton on the weekend. Could be an ugly one.
If there ever were a game that cried mutiny that was it. Good grief
If Sully is here next year, something is seriously screwed up. Query: can you trade coaches in the NHL?
Lol.
I think the Boston FSG guys are going to have to be the one ownership group in this town that fires a head coach with money still on the books.
The only thing he possibly has going for him is the Bostonian brotherhood at this point.
I actually was serious about trading a coach. It was mentioned on The Fan this week (don’t remember by whom) but they didn’t know the answer. Sully might be a good fit elsewhere, but this is simply going the wrong direction.
Seems most people are underwhelmed with this trade and both Madden and Rossi mentioned the return isn’t what they’d first heard it’d be.
Looks like it was done once in 1987. Michel Bergeron according to The Google Machine.
I had a post all ready to go about 2 hours b4 the trade about how the fans of the player being traded sometimes have a player valued higher than opposing GMs.
Factor in they haven't seen Guentzel with a stick in his hand for how long and he's an RFA.
This is basically throwing it at the wall and seeing if any of these guys come close to sniffing NHL success. Which is probably the best you can hope for.
No team was going to give up their #1 prospect or similar in this deal imo.
Maybe if Guentzel had been healthy and lighting it up. At this point other GMs probably have little idea if any if the right now Guentzel is the 3 months ago Guentzel so some aren't willing to risk it.
As someone who follows NHL prospects, the return is solid, but probably more quantity than quality. Lucius is probably the best prospect. He probably slots in as the Pens’ 3rd or 4th best prospect behind at least Yager and Blomqvist. He’s playing at Wisconsin and could develop into a good scorer. It would have been nice to have a guaranteed first rounder, but my guess is that was probably turned into a 3rd prospect. That’s fine by me considering all of the teams Dubas was dealing with were going to be picking at the end of the 1st round.
Bunting is a good add and brings something different to the Top 6. He’s an abrasive type player, though not particularly young.
Bunting is a good add and brings something different to the Top 6. He’s an abrasive type player, though not particularly young.
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For those in the know, what kind of cap space are they looking at this off season?
Carter off the books at $3+ million, the difference between Bunting and Jake’s salary maybe $1.5?
Carter off the books at $3+ million, the difference between Bunting and Jake’s salary maybe $1.5?
Last night was the proverbial banding being torn off the wounds of this franchise. It is time for wholesale changes.Most of the "experts" were saying the Pens were looking for a young NHL player, a 1st RD draft pick and a top level prospect in return for Guentzel ...... Bunting is only a year younger then Guentzel and a solid player who could possibly play on the top 2 lines but is nowhere near Guentzel's level (the money probably does work with Bunting), so if the experts are right then we should be getting a couple more assets in addition to Bunting ...... I think most likely a couple more assets from either a high draft pick, top prospect, or younger NHL player on their roster as we are looking to get younger, faster, and increase talent level ...... we'll see, obviously can't assess a deal that isn't complete/announced yet.
Pens down 5-0 against the Caps after 2 periods tonight ...... really poor effort so far.
Addendum - Pens lose 6-0
If the Pens finish in the top 10 of the draft, they keep the pick and the Sharks get next year's pick.
I asked this on the Athletic the other day. Mike Sullivan would be the perfect coach for a young, speedy team like New Jersey. New Jersey just fired Lindy Ruff. If there was ever a possibility to trade a coach in a win/win situation.....this would be it.
Dude I just noticed your screen icon image. That gets me every time. I love it.
Can we fire Sullivan and prop up EJ behind the bench? What’s Roberto Romano doing these days? Can we trade Jarry and put him in goal? We need to tank.
The 2024-25 salary cap is $87.7 million. With Carter, Ruhwedel, Nedejkovic and a few other league minimums coming off the books, it looks like they will be around $6-7 million in space. That might be a little less because they are retaining some of Jeff Petry’s salary and maybe one other. Trading Reilly Smith would save a bunch. He makes $5m. Even if you retain some salary that’s some nice space to use, even if it is used up signing their RFAs like Bemstrom and Puustinen. Needless to say, even if they only have $5-7mm in space, that’s way more than they have typically had and would allow Dubas to perhaps sign one of the more quality bottom six free agents on the market.
The trade is underwhelming. According to the trib article the trade puts them 2 mm over the cap. So they’ll need to make more moves.
This team is going to stink. That may enable Dubas to move guys like rust and Tanger and throw in Malkin
Dubas may soon be Dumbass if these trades are all like this
This team is going to stink. That may enable Dubas to move guys like rust and Tanger and throw in Malkin
Dubas may soon be Dumbass if these trades are all like this
It was underwhelming.
Folks...................I was on record of trading Jake this past offseason. I said it is not worth tying up another long term big no movement contract with a 30 year old, so max out the return. I ended up being right. Of course, I also didn't want them to resign Malkin and sign Vincent Trocheck 2 years ago.
The truth is.....Bunting is exactly the type of player the Pens need. He is not Jake, but likely as a top 6 forward he could put up 20 goals, but also has an edge and nastiness to his game. The Pens need more of this. They also just need different guys. Different voices. It is obvious not just among the coaches, but among the players themselves, this includes Crosby, they aren't holding each other accountable nor do players have any care if they don't put for the effort because there is nothing or no one to hold them accountable.
I just wish the organization had the cajones to let Malkin walk 2 summers ago.
Some thoughts and comments ........
- As to the question about can NHL teams trade coaches (I think you asked about that, "recruits"), my perusal of the most recent NHL CBA seems to basically indicate that players and draft picks are the only assets a team can trade and receive in NHL trades, so looks like the answer is no to trading coaches ......
- Hard to say at present whether the Guentzel deal is a good or bad one until we see what actual draft picks we get and how the prospects develop over time ..... prior to the trade it was reported most commonly that the Pens asking price for Guentzel was a 1st Round pick, a top prospect, and a young NHL player ...... so what was traded and received by the Pens in the trade .....
- Carolina got Guentzel at 25% salary retention by the Pens and Ty Smith, a prospect who didn't seem to fit into the Pens future plans ....
- The Pens received conditional draft picks, 3 prospects, and an NHL player .....
- Looked at a little closer, the guaranteed draft pick is a 2nd RD pick in 2024 which will be upgraded to a 2024 1st RD pick if Carolina makes it to the Stanley Cup Finals ...... and a 5th RD pick in 2024 if Carolina wins the Stanley Cup ...... so, if CAR doesn't get to the SCF's, the Pens get a 2nd RD pick, if CAR makes it to the SCF and loses, the Pens get a 1st RD pick, and if CAR wins the SC, the Pens get a 1st and 5th RD pick .........
- The NHL player received was Michael Bunting who is 28 (one year younger than Jake), so not young, although he is a pretty good player, who can play on the top 2 lines and is a solid scoring forward who can win battles on the boards, is pretty responsible defensively with some toughness to his game ...... sort of a healthy Zucker type ....... a player that can help now and brings an element of much needed toughness to the team (he obviously is not a Jake level player overall).
- Pens received 3 prospects none of which are Carolina's top ("A" level) prospects but all are "B" to "upper B" level players ...... some reviews of the prospects that I read seems to indicate the following ......
- Ville Koivunen - 20 y/o center/winger, who is having a breakout season in the top pro league in Finland scoring 55 points so far in 57 games, the highest point total in that league for an U21 player since Sami Kapanen 30 years ago .......... said to be a smart player with skill who has good work ethic, plays aggressively, good motor and has improved significantly offensively this year, dual threat ....... projected as a middle 6 NHL player in near future ....
- Vasili Ponomarev - 21 y/o center/winger, playing in AHL now, good motor, good hands, good forechecker and plays with some strength despite not being that big, felt to have some middle 6 upside and getting close to being full time NHL player .....
- Cruz Lucius - 19 y/o RW plays at D1 University of Wisconsin where he is their leading scorer ...... said to have good hands, good scorer, and improving his overall game ....... probably least ready for NHL at present but projected as a L3 type NHL player .......
- The problem with evaluating the trade long term is we don't know how these prospects will develop and if all or none of these prospects will make it full time to the NHL and how effective they will be, so time will tell .... although they do increase our prospect level significantly, we still have to see how they develop ...... it sounds like Koivunen and Ponomarev are close to being middle 6 NHL players so we will probably find out how good they are in the next year or two and whether they are legit NHL players ..... Lucius may take more time.....
- We also don't know yet exactly what draft picks we are going to end up with and what players we will get with those picks ...... again the hope was we get a 1st RD pick, top prospect, and younger NHL player for Jake ....... we may not have gotten that return but we may not be far off ...... if Jake wasn't a rental and coming off an injury, the return likely would have been better .....
- Hopefully the Pens make more trades today and get younger, faster, and bring in more talent !
- Looking more and more likely to me that they will need to replace Sullivan ...... should know shortly after season ends.
- As to the question about can NHL teams trade coaches (I think you asked about that, "recruits"), my perusal of the most recent NHL CBA seems to basically indicate that players and draft picks are the only assets a team can trade and receive in NHL trades, so looks like the answer is no to trading coaches ......
- Hard to say at present whether the Guentzel deal is a good or bad one until we see what actual draft picks we get and how the prospects develop over time ..... prior to the trade it was reported most commonly that the Pens asking price for Guentzel was a 1st Round pick, a top prospect, and a young NHL player ...... so what was traded and received by the Pens in the trade .....
- Carolina got Guentzel at 25% salary retention by the Pens and Ty Smith, a prospect who didn't seem to fit into the Pens future plans ....
- The Pens received conditional draft picks, 3 prospects, and an NHL player .....
- Looked at a little closer, the guaranteed draft pick is a 2nd RD pick in 2024 which will be upgraded to a 2024 1st RD pick if Carolina makes it to the Stanley Cup Finals ...... and a 5th RD pick in 2024 if Carolina wins the Stanley Cup ...... so, if CAR doesn't get to the SCF's, the Pens get a 2nd RD pick, if CAR makes it to the SCF and loses, the Pens get a 1st RD pick, and if CAR wins the SC, the Pens get a 1st and 5th RD pick .........
- The NHL player received was Michael Bunting who is 28 (one year younger than Jake), so not young, although he is a pretty good player, who can play on the top 2 lines and is a solid scoring forward who can win battles on the boards, is pretty responsible defensively with some toughness to his game ...... sort of a healthy Zucker type ....... a player that can help now and brings an element of much needed toughness to the team (he obviously is not a Jake level player overall).
- Pens received 3 prospects none of which are Carolina's top ("A" level) prospects but all are "B" to "upper B" level players ...... some reviews of the prospects that I read seems to indicate the following ......
- Ville Koivunen - 20 y/o center/winger, who is having a breakout season in the top pro league in Finland scoring 55 points so far in 57 games, the highest point total in that league for an U21 player since Sami Kapanen 30 years ago .......... said to be a smart player with skill who has good work ethic, plays aggressively, good motor and has improved significantly offensively this year, dual threat ....... projected as a middle 6 NHL player in near future ....
- Vasili Ponomarev - 21 y/o center/winger, playing in AHL now, good motor, good hands, good forechecker and plays with some strength despite not being that big, felt to have some middle 6 upside and getting close to being full time NHL player .....
- Cruz Lucius - 19 y/o RW plays at D1 University of Wisconsin where he is their leading scorer ...... said to have good hands, good scorer, and improving his overall game ....... probably least ready for NHL at present but projected as a L3 type NHL player .......
- The problem with evaluating the trade long term is we don't know how these prospects will develop and if all or none of these prospects will make it full time to the NHL and how effective they will be, so time will tell .... although they do increase our prospect level significantly, we still have to see how they develop ...... it sounds like Koivunen and Ponomarev are close to being middle 6 NHL players so we will probably find out how good they are in the next year or two and whether they are legit NHL players ..... Lucius may take more time.....
- We also don't know yet exactly what draft picks we are going to end up with and what players we will get with those picks ...... again the hope was we get a 1st RD pick, top prospect, and younger NHL player for Jake ....... we may not have gotten that return but we may not be far off ...... if Jake wasn't a rental and coming off an injury, the return likely would have been better .....
- Hopefully the Pens make more trades today and get younger, faster, and bring in more talent !
- Looking more and more likely to me that they will need to replace Sullivan ...... should know shortly after season ends.
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Yes. One thing to note, while they weren't Carolina's top 5 prospects, Carolina's top 10 and the Penguins top 10 are vastly different. Pens only have 3 legit NHL prospects, while Carolina has 10. Here is an interesting line about Carolina's prospect system: The stunted progressions of multiple prospects in the absence of an AHL affiliate has prevented a strong Hurricanes pool from taking a step up in the rankings, even after adding what looks like a promising 2023 draft class to their group of quirky and talented prospects.
So the thoughts are, the system is loaded, but it is being held back by no AHL affiliate to help coordinate development with the NHL team. So these guys are playing all over the place. So maybe playing now with a cohesive development team will help. I dunno.
We traded Ruhwedel to the Rangers for a 2027 4th round pick.
A 2027 pick?? are you kidding.
Maybe we can retain 50% on Carter and get a 2029 6th round pick 🤣🤣
A 2027 pick?? are you kidding.
Maybe we can retain 50% on Carter and get a 2029 6th round pick 🤣🤣
pittdan77
Athletic Director
You have to start wondering how badly this could actually go. That trade signaled that the team is in rebuilding mode. You have to wonder what your aging vets are thinking because this isn't going to get fixed quickly.
Yeah Like I said Hopefully guys with no trade clauses like Maulkin Letang Karlson and Rust will be more flexible and want to go to a team where they can win. Gotta wonder if Sid will want to stick around as well. Not sure hed want to spend the last years of his career on a team going nowhere..
You didn’t list sizes of these 3 prospects we got but from what I read elsewhere they’re all on the small size. One was listed at like 5’10” and 160 lbs and the other 2 not much bigger.
As far as the draft picks, we only get the 1st rounder if the Canes make the SC finals so does that mean that pick is next to last or last pick of the 1st round. Don’t know if they take into account playoff finish when setting draft order. It won’t be that high of a pick if that’s the way it’s done.
So the trade seems a little underwhelming as far as having a real big impact on short-term future.
He’s a 7th defenseman who’s contract is expiring so hey at least they got something 😂
Size of the 3 prospects .......
Lucius - 19 y/o, 6'1", 184 ........ Ponomarev - 21 y/o, 5'10", 180 ........ Koivunen - 20 y/o, listed as 5'11", 161 but I read in one article it was his draft year size and he is now 6' 0", 172 ....... Ponomarev is supposedly a good forechecker and strong for his size, Koivunen is said to be an aggressive player, and Lucius has good size ....... these guys are young, they should be adding size/muscle the next few years so not having seen these guys play myself, I'm more concerned about their skating ability and other skills like stickhandling/hands, passing, receiving passes, shooting, hockey IQ, work ethic, toughness, etc. ........ you would like a little more size but if their skills are really good, I think they will be big enough.
Regarding the draft picks ......
Yes, for the Pens to get the 1st RD pick the Hurricanes have to get to the SCF's ..... the SC runner up gets pick #31 in the 1st RD and the SC winner gets pick #32 ...... so we would get one of those picks in the 1st RD ......
If Carolina doesn't make the SCF's then we get their second RD pick and they had 2 second round picks, we will get their second round pick that they obtained previously from the Flyers meaning our 2nd RD pick would be wherever that Flyers 2nd RD pick ends up.
Let's hope so regarding the prospects development !
Just catching some of the PM Team's attack on the trade. Generally, I think these guys are pretty smart, but I don't see their logic. They're panning the return, but unless they were in on all of the talks/offers, how can they attack the return? Do they think Dubas moved too early and the offer would've been sweetened had he waited? That's pure speculation. Remember when Huntington was trying to trade Vasquez and was holding out for one of the Dodgers' top prospects? At least in that situation, Vasquez wasn't going to be leaving in free agency at the end of the year. Their arguments are like the guy who thinks he's going to get $10 million in free agency and then no one offers it and he criticizes the other GMs for not paying his "fair value." I wish they'd gotten more, but I assume Dubas took the best offer available and you can't force other clubs to pay your expected return for the guy traded.
It's one reason why I get rid of Sullivan. These guys are too comfortable with him, he with them. No accountability. So you bring in a new coach who doesn't play favorites, maybe some of these guys become uncomfortable.
The trade deadline overall was really weak. For all teams. For everyone whining about the return for Guentzel, Jason Zucker was traded also at the deadline. He yielded a 6th rd pick, or less than the Pens got for Chad Ruwehdal.
Didn’t read it all but on ESPN+ they said this year was a buyers market.
He gave the Penguins a B. Also said Carolina didn’t request to talk to him about a contract during the negotiations. So this may turn out to be a pure rental.
