OT: TJ is building a new $100 million high school

[Panther Parrothead]

Continually setting the bar on dumb. That takes a special talent.


Schenley High sold cheap because it is on the National Registry of Historic Places, is a contributing property to the Schenley Farms National and city historic districts, and is a PHLF historic landmark. No developer would be able to get a significant alteration to the exterior of that structure through the neighborhood and city planning and historic review commissions. Therefore, the repurposement of that site is limited and forces the owner to deal with the asbestos issues. That said, the 4 acre building and site sold for $5.2 million in 2013 (and yes, I still think Pitt was absolutely stupid not to jump on it even with the political backlash that would have followed it going to a non-profit).

For sites that you could actually redevelop in central/sough Oakland, 1.5 acres that serves as the site of one of those hotel/student housing development plots along the western part of Forbes Ave recently sold for $8.2 million. An adjacent 0.3 acre site went for $400K to the same developer. So you are talking over $4 million an acre. And Oakland has the priciest per square feet office rental rates in Western PA. It is a sellers market.

How many contiguous acres of land, that can be redeveloped, do you think you need for a D1 FBS quality football stadium? The smallest NFL stadium footprint, Seattle's, fits on 30 acres. That is half of most stadiums (like the 60 acres just bought in LA for a potential stadium project). Try finding 30 contiguous acres that can legitimately be developed in Oakland (and corrdinating that many different land owners willing to sell), find $100-150 million just for the land, and then try to get the designs past all the local and city review commissions. They can't even close a one block stretch of Bigelow Blvd after 50 years of trying.

The idea is ludicrous.

^^^This^^^ post should be pinned at the top of every Pitt message board as a reference point for any poster who is thinking about starting yet another silly "Let's build an on-campus stadium!!!" thread. (The exception is if someone here hits the Powerball lottery for a ginormous amount of money and donates it all to Pitt.)

 

[Pghfan]

^^^This^^^ post should be pinned at the top of every Pitt message board as a reference point for any poster who is thinking about starting yet another silly "Let's build an on-campus stadium!!!" thread. (The exception is if someone here hits the Powerball lottery for a ginormous amount of money and donates it all to Pitt.)

every mailbox, house, and building in Oakland is on the national registry of historic places.. It's time to "up" the prerequisite for qualifying for such a title.. I saw a homeless guy sitting on a cardboard box defecating in a mcdonalds bag on Bates street and next to him was a bronze plaque saying this is a national registry of historic places..

 

[HailtoPitt]

The original 2014 sale price of the 1.4561 acre plot was $4.9 million, which = $3.37million per acre, which would work out to $101 million for 30 acres. The other 0.27 acre plot was bought separately in 2012 for $385K. Combined (which you really can't do because they were purchased two years apart, and it is $3.1 million per acre).

Adjusting for the exact size of those plots makes if $3,000,060 per acre of property acquisition, which is $91.85 million for 30 acres of space. That's if Pitt owns none of the land, which is somewhat unlikely in Oakland. If Pitt owned, say 20% of the land they wanted to build on, the property acquisition is at $73 million. Maybe it would cost $40 million in site prep (just throwing that number out there based on 60% of the acquisition cost). That means they are paying $113 million to purchase and prepare the space.

The cost to construct a modest stadium appropriate for Pitt's program could be around $150M. So the total is $263 million. It boils down to how much Pitt could secure in donations and their estimated yearly revenue for naming rights, luxury box revenue (which they would now receive 100% of), club and general seating revenue, and other income versus yearly debt service payments, cost of managing the stadium, appreciation costs, etc. They can look at all of these numbers and come up with a donation target to make the project feasible. And just because Pitt collects $100 million does not take away from possible athletics endowment contributions. In fact, it could increase those by providing a better game day atmosphere. Playing at heinz Field only reinforces the attitude that Pitt doesn't need individuals to contribute.

 

[Bradlib Zannamaker]

Do you actually believe Pitt could build a new stadium for $300 million? I doubt that $300 million would come close to buying the land necessary in Oakland, much less building a stadium, too.

Your meds are obviously failing you.

Although I agree with the spirit of your post, as someone with some CRE experience, I would say that 300 Million would more than cover land required for a stadium, parking, bars, an amusement park and possibly a regional airport in Oakland.

As far as conditioning the land for usage (demolition, grading land, enviromental clean up, etc.)... that is a whole different story. I would lump that in with constuction costs.

 

[OriginalEther]

The cost to construct a modest stadium appropriate for Pitt's program could be around $150M. So the total is $263 million...... In fact, it could increase those by providing a better game day atmosphere. Playing at heinz Field only reinforces the attitude that Pitt doesn't need individuals to contribute.

Actually, something like this would cause me to decrease my contributions to Pitt, as wasting that much money on an unnecessary stadium tells me that Pitt has money to burn.

 

[larboski280]

Guys I work in the industry. Most of you are forgetting the accessibility issues. To acces and exit the stadium would require several improvements to state infrastructure. The HOP permit Pitt would have acquire would only be issued once an approved infrastructure proposal was processed. Things aren't like they used to be. You can't argue that since there was a Pitt stadium before, that the infrastructure is fine. Pittsburgh is playing catch up as a result of being one of the first cities to actually have a roadway network. As you can see by construction projects on 28 and 51 and 376, these were suitable at the time they were constructed. However, they became obsolete, and we were forced to undertake massive construction projects to help correct those initial oversights.

You have to solve land acquisition, development, stadium construction, and infrastructure issues. The actual construction of the stadium is the easiest out of all of these factors.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Actually, something like this would cause me to decrease my contributions to Pitt, as wasting that much money on an unnecessary stadium tells me that Pitt has money to burn.

I take it you don't contribute to basketball then, as they wasted money on an unnecessary new arena (sarcasm).

Or are you going to try and tell me that pitt needed a new arena because it was the best way to have a place where students can run on treadmills?

 

[OriginalEther]

I don't think there is any remotely legitimate comparison between the Fitzgerald Field House and Heinz Field.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I don't think there is any remotely legitimate comparison between the Fitzgerald Field House and Heinz Field.

I'm comparing the Petersen Events Center with Heinz Field. If Pitt doesn't need a football stadium on campus, then they don't need a basketball arena on campus, either.

Let's try to be consistent folks.

Now this is the point where someone should point out that the Penguins were pretending that they might leave town.

 

[UPitt '89]

I'm comparing the Petersen Events Center with Heinz Field. If Pitt doesn't need a football stadium on campus, then they don't need a basketball arena on campus, either.

Let's try to be consistent folks.

Now this is the point where someone should point out that the Penguins were pretending that they might leave town.

The Pete serves as a convocation center, concert hall, and several other functions besides basketball.

It was the best money ever spent, athletically speaking, at Pitt in the past 50 years.

 

[HailtoPitt]

The Pete serves as a convocation center, concert hall, and several other functions besides basketball.

It was the best money ever spent, athletically speaking, at Pitt in the past 50 years.

Like I said, if a new football stadium is a waste of money, then the Pete is, too.

 

[caleco's]

The deccico's are finding it with their cfl salaries

 

[quip]

Thank you. My point on a new Pitt stadium is this:

1. Money isnt an issue
2. Land isnt an issue. The money buys the land
3. Traffic/parking isnt an issue

The issue is whether or not its worth the money to Pitt to have an on-campus stadium when we have a half-empty one 4 miles away.

Its kinda like if your neighbor said you can use his inground pool anytime. Dont even ask, just come over anytime like its yours. You have the land and can easily afford your own but you have to figure, is it really worth it when you and the kids can just use the neighbors.

So its half empty. That's not a good reason to spend $300 million. Besides many HS recruits like the idea of sharing the stadium with the STEELERS.

 

[OriginalEther]

I'm comparing the Petersen Events Center with Heinz Field. If Pitt doesn't need a football stadium on campus, then they don't need a basketball arena on campus, either.

Let's try to be consistent folks.

Now this is the point where someone should point out that the Penguins were pretending that they might leave town.

So we should tear down the Pete?
The location of either stadium is irrelevant, at least in these cases.

 

[HailtoPitt]

So we should tear down the Pete?
The location of either stadium is irrelevant, at least in these cases.

Tear it down? God no.

I'm making the point that if building a new football stadium is a waste of money, then the Pete was a waste of money as well. It cost $160 million (today's dollars) to build the Pete, funded by the state, Pitt and donations. The same folks who stress that they would stop donating if Pitt were to build a football stadium, should also have been equally outraged at the amount of funds used to build the Petersen "Events Center".

I'm just asking for some consistency.

 

[OriginalEther]

It's apples and oranges.

The Petersen Events Center replaced the Fitzgerald Field House.
Fantasy Stadium X would replace Heinz Field.

Again, there's no comparing the condition and serviceabilty of Heinz Field to that of the Fitzgerald Field House.
The gripe you are having with Heinz Field is it's location. To shell out $250-$500 million because of that - which frankly isn't an issue - is an utter waste of money that Pitt can put to far, far better use.

 

[NTOP]

I'm comparing the Petersen Events Center with Heinz Field. If Pitt doesn't need a football stadium on campus, then they don't need a basketball arena on campus, either.

Let's try to be consistent folks.

Now this is the point where someone should point out that the Penguins were pretending that they might leave town.

A late candidate for Dumbass POY!!! Congrats.

 

[HailtoPitt]

A late candidate for Dumbass POY!!! Congrats.

You've already earned that distinction for the last 5 years running!

 

[Pittbaseball11]

It's apples and oranges.

The Petersen Events Center replaced the Fitzgerald Field House.
Fantasy Stadium X would replace Heinz Field.

Again, there's no comparing the condition and serviceabilty of Heinz Field to that of the Fitzgerald Field House.
The gripe you are having with Heinz Field is it's location. To shell out $250-$500 million because of that - which frankly isn't an issue - is an utter waste of money that Pitt can put to far, far better use.

Not to mention, if Pitt played at Consol for basketball you're talking about a big scheduling headache trying to coordinate with the ACC, the Penguins (and probably by extension the NHL), and Duquesne for both the men's and women's teams. At least being at Heinz, you know the only potential scheduling issue -- ever -- would be if the Steelers and Pitt somehow wind up playing a Thursday night game at home on the same week.

With the expansion of Pitt's undergraduate enrollment, I think they likely would have needed to construct the additional food options and workout facilities that are housed in the Pete, along with a place to hold graduation and the freshman convocation, so it really comes down to how much extra they paid to add in the basketball portion of it.

I read most of these stadium threads, and to this day I still have absolutely no idea why it's at all an issue.

 

[HailtoPitt]

It's apples and oranges.

The Petersen Events Center replaced the Fitzgerald Field House.
Fantasy Stadium X would replace Heinz Field.

Again, there's no comparing the condition and serviceabilty of Heinz Field to that of the Fitzgerald Field House.
The gripe you are having with Heinz Field is it's location. To shell out $250-$500 million because of that - which frankly isn't an issue - is an utter waste of money that Pitt can put to far, far better use.

So you're suggesting that it was appropriate to build a new basketball arena for $160 million (today's dollars) instead of upgrade the Field House, play at the Civic Arena or work with the Pens to play in the new arena for much, much cheaper?

 

[HailtoPitt]

Not to mention, if Pitt played at Consol for basketball you're talking about a big scheduling headache trying to coordinate with the ACC, the Penguins (and probably by extension the NHL), and Duquesne for both the men's and women's teams. At least being at Heinz, you know the only potential scheduling issue -- ever -- would be if the Steelers and Pitt somehow wind up playing a Thursday night game at home on the same week.

With the expansion of Pitt's undergraduate enrollment, I think they likely would have needed to construct the additional food options and workout facilities that are housed in the Pete, along with a place to hold graduation and the freshman convocation, so it really comes down to how much extra they paid to add in the basketball portion of it.

I read most of these stadium threads, and to this day I still have absolutely no idea why it's at all an issue.

$160 million to avoid some scheduling headaches (which we do in fact run into at Heinz) and to have more places for students to eat and workout? As if those things couldn't have been built for 1% of the total?

Again, let's be consistent. If you think a new football stadium is a waste of money, then you have to believe the Pete was a waste as well.

 

[ThePanthers]

Again, let's be consistent. If you think a new football stadium is a waste of money, then you have to believe the Pete was a waste as well.

I don't think that.

 

[Pghfan]

I think pitt needs to upgrade their student union.. This is no joke, Harrisburg Area Community College has a nice student union than pitt, this is honestly no exaggeration. Pitt's student union is the worst, by far, of all the campuses ive been too. Relax on the stadium and build the damn kids somewhere to hang out between classes..

 

[HailtoPitt]

I think pitt needs to upgrade their student union.. This is no joke, Harrisburg Area Community College has a nice student union than pitt, this is honestly no exaggeration. Pitt's student union is the worst, by far, of all the campuses ive been too. Relax on the stadium and build the damn kids somewhere to hang out between classes..

It is a heck of alot nicer then when I was a student.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

$140 million to avoid some scheduling headaches (which we do in fact run into at Heinz) and to have more places for students to eat and workout? As if those things couldn't have been built for 1% of the total?

Again, let's be consistent. If you think a new football stadium is a waste of money, then you have to believe the Pete was a waste as well.

What are the frequent scheduling headaches we run into at Heinz Field? The Pirates might be using the parking lots close to the stadium? That's less of a nightmare than trying to find parking and fighting traffic in Oakland. Pitt can -- and does -- schedule their OOC 5, 6, 7 years out for football because they know that Saturdays in the fall will be wide open at Heinz. They won't be able to do that for basketball, because who the hell knows what the NHL will decide to give the Penguins from year-to-year? Especially when weekend games are frequent in both basketball and hockey and the Penguins have a hard enough time keeping their ice playable as it is.

And, again, it's just all about how much they paid to include basketball if we're going to have faux outrage over something as incomparable as this. They could have upgraded the Field House, and added in those other things for less (maybe), it's just a matter of how much less.

But still, in the end, we're dealing with asking for consistency in an apples to unicorns comparison.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They could have upgraded the Field House, and added in those other things for less (maybe), it's just a matter of how much less.

Of course the other issue is that there is no way, and I mean literally no way, that they could ever upgrade the Field House into something comparable, size-wise and amenities-wise, to the Peterson Center. The Field House was cramped at 6,800 bench seats. Change to chairback seats and the capacity drops considerably. And there is simply no land on the site there for them to realistically make the building any bigger.

In fact there was no way to upgrade the Field House into anything resembling a big time D1 arena.

 

[CrazyPaco]

every mailbox, house, and building in Oakland is on the national registry of historic places.. .

No, not at all true.

And Pitt Stadium wasn't on. It should have been, but wasn't.

There are exactly two Pitt buildings individually listed on the National Registry, and one isn't even in Oakland. There are only 9 total buildings in Oakland on the National Registry. Now, if you are talking about contributing properties to National Historic Districts, that is a different designation that is less prestigious. Pitt just tore one of those down, with no oposition, to build Nordenberg Hall.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Of course the other issue is that there is no way, and I mean literally no way, that they could ever upgrade the Field House into something comparable, size-wise and amenities-wise, to the Peterson Center. The Field House was cramped at 6,800 bench seats. Change to chairback seats and the capacity drops considerably. And there is simply no land on the site there for them to realistically make the building any bigger.

In fact there was no way to upgrade the Field House into anything resembling a big time D1 arena.

I definitely agree with that, although my general view is that many loathe basketball being big time so would probably prefer a tiny arena that would look nice on the inside but be overall be small and an afterthought.

I was more humoring the other poster by considering that they could've upgraded it to look nice on the inside and then build the student amenities separately. It would have been prohibitive, but I think a solid faction of the fanbase wouldn't mind that.

Honestly, given all the things they needed during this time of growth, the Pete was a pretty good investment in terms of killing multiple birds with one stone and making sure none of your programs were held back. I doubt they build the Petersen Sports Complex if they go the football route, for instance, and I even more highly doubt that they wind up with stadiums and practice/weight facilities as nice as they have now.

I feel like people overlook the whole practice field/weight room stuff when discussing these things. Would Pitt just not have a practice field, and have all of their weight rooms in the stadium? Up until the ACC money came in, the Pete was pretty drab on the inside (i.e. the areas that fans can't usually see on game day or when walking through). It would have been the same thing for football, and possibly even more so.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I think pitt needs to upgrade their student union.. This is no joke, Harrisburg Area Community College has a nice student union than pitt, this is honestly no exaggeration. Pitt's student union is the worst, by far, of all the campuses ive been too. Relax on the stadium and build the damn kids somewhere to hang out between classes..

They've recently put millions into the union. Most of it into the upper floors, several of which have been completely gutted for new spaces. Plus they added the former Concordia Club as a student union annex.

The William Pitt Union is way nicer than 99% of student unions I've ever been in.

Seriously...I've not found most other school's remotely close to having anything near the WPU. In fact, I don't know of a nicer student union anywhere. Harrisburg CC!?! LMFAO. Ivies don't have as nice of unions.

 

[anon_4dfwm2pijbr0a]

Coming from the poster who recently thought it a good idea to have Narduzzi hire whatever loser Paterno as a recruiter. Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

 

[CrazyPaco]

I definitely agree with that, although my general view is that many loathe basketball being big time so would probably prefer a tiny arena that would look nice on the inside but be overall be small and an afterthought.

I was more humoring the other poster by considering that they could've upgraded it to look nice on the inside and then build the student amenities separately. It would have been prohibitive, but I think a solid faction of the fanbase wouldn't mind that.

Honestly, given all the things they needed during this time of growth, the Pete was a pretty good investment in terms of killing multiple birds with one stone and making sure none of your programs were held back. I doubt they build the Petersen Sports Complex if they go the football route, for instance, and I even more highly doubt that they wind up with stadiums and practice/weight facilities as nice as they have now.

I feel like people overlook the whole practice field/weight room stuff when discussing these things. Would Pitt just not have a practice field, and have all of their weight rooms in the stadium? Up until the ACC money came in, the Pete was pretty drab on the inside (i.e. the areas that fans can't usually see on game day or when walking through). It would have been the same thing for football, and possibly even more so.

If they don't build the Petersen Sports Complex, they might not be in the ACC.

The total facilities overhaul was huge and came right before the clock struck midnight.

The Pete combined multiple projects: an indoor arena/convocation need (not just for sports...things like graduate and freshman convocation and the student activities fair), a new student rec facility, and a water chiller facility. It was three separate project rolled into one. Plus it is used every day and hosts way more outside money making events than a stadium ever would. Pitt stadium held zero outside events in its last years. No stadium event is going to pass on Heinz for a 10-15K smaller and less well equipped venue 3 miles down the road with worse access and infrastructure. There just aren't that many stadium events in the first place compared to the substantially larger number of arena events.

 

[Pghfan]

I think pitt needs to upgrade their student union.. This is no joke, Harrisburg Area Community College has a nice student union than pitt, this is honestly no exaggeration. Pitt's student union is the worst, by far, of all the campuses ive been too. Relax on the stadium and build the damn kids somewhere to hang out between classes..

They've recently put millions into the union. Most of it into the upper floors, several of which have been completely gutted for new spaces. Plus they added the former Concordia Club as a student union annex.

The William Pitt Union is way nicer than 99% of student unions I've ever been in.

Seriously...I've not found most other school's remotely close to having anything near the WPU. In fact, I don't know of a nicer student union anywhere. Harrisburg CC!?! LMFAO. Ivies don't have as nice of unions.

ok, I actually met the food court area, the downstairs area. Well done Paco,I stand corrected. I was at some engineering fairs that were held in ballroom and u r right. I stand corrected and my original statement was short sighted

 

[CrazyPaco]

ok, I actually met the food court area, the downstairs area. Well done Paco,I stand corrected. I was at some engineering fairs that were held in ballroom and u r right. I stand corrected and my original statement was short sighted

They did just do a $2 million renovation of that space in 2013. There's not much they can do though as far as comparing it to modern student union rec areas with big, multi-floor open, cathedral-like ceiling spaces when they have to cram it into the basement of a historic hotel. Space always has been and always will be an issue at Pitt...for all facilities. What they should probably do is rip out the food court and just make it all a rec space and put a food court somewhere else (or vice versa). I mean, they do have a food court in the Cathedral as well. Not sure where they'd be able to expand that space. Perhaps they could expand the union into Schenley Quad between Bruce and McCormick...that is pretty much wasted space..

 

[Ski11585]

It's an arms race of sorts. Today's pampered kids want fancy dorms with private baths, access to the gym, etc. Why do you think so many FB players are wowed by facilities?? Many come from modest-to-poor neighborhoods, and end up in college rooms that are nicer than they've ever had. Well, those same "expectations" run through the entire student body. And the classroom buildings, labs, etc., all have to eye-appealing.

Yup. And while they build these Potemkin villages, they use more and more adjuncts to save money.

 

[levance2]

The issue is really that there's no reason to eat in the Union. Tear out the cafeteria completely and nobody will miss it. It is directly between the Towers eateries and the Cathedral basement, not to mention all the non-university establishments.

What people are most missing in this entire thread is that Pitt has basically relocated the center of the campus in recent years. There are a lot of students living up on the hill (eating and exercising at the Pete daily), and now in the new Nordy Hall. There is plenty of space to congregate or eat in all of those other places, and I imagine many students have little reason to ever enter the Union. This isn't how the campus functioned in the 70s or even the 90s.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I almost never ate in the union when I was in school. Rarely hung out there, except maybe between classes. And now you have the O'Hara Student Center too, and new lounges being put everywhere.

It's primary function is event space and student club offices. Always has been. They've changed a bunch of stuff in the upper floors...turning former administrative offices into student lounges and studios and things like that. But there is a reason they bought the Concordia Club: the Union didn't have enough space left to accommodate the need for student event space and student offices.

It might make sense to tear out the food court in the lower level and turn that whole lower floor into an expanded Nordy's. But really, Pitt just has to adjust the function to fit students needs, whatever that may be, and those needs will certainly change over time. But the two historic floors are never going to be touched, nor should they be, and Pitt is lucky to have them. There was a time when they were considering tearing it down and building a Posvar Hall like structure there.

I'll tell you what has always been under utilized though: the Forbes Avenue porch and things over in that area. That porch is actually a cool little space and never, ever used. And take a look at the detailing on the stairwell on that side of the union. Really missing the boat not making that part of the union more accessible and utilized.

 

[burnie1105]

The issue is really that there's no reason to eat in the Union. Tear out the cafeteria completely and nobody will miss it. It is directly between the Towers eateries and the Cathedral basement, not to mention all the non-university establishments.

What people are most missing in this entire thread is that Pitt has basically relocated the center of the campus in recent years. There are a lot of students living up on the hill (eating and exercising at the Pete daily), and now in the new Nordy Hall. There is plenty of space to congregate or eat in all of those other places, and I imagine many students have little reason to ever enter the Union. This isn't how the campus functioned in the 70s or even the 90s.

I can say that definitely isn't the case, at least from 2010-2012. When I was there the cafeteria was always packed at lunch, and there were always groups hanging out in Nordy's Place or the first floor areas. There are also tons of reasons to go there...Internship fairs, blood drives, the commuter lounge (which is a hidden gem on campus; wish I knew about it before the one year I commuted), Dean Humphrey's festivals, etc. The upper-floors were also really good for meetings and study space.

 

[NTOP]

So you're suggesting that it was appropriate to build a new basketball arena for $160 million (today's dollars) instead of upgrade the Field House, play at the Civic Arena or work with the Pens to play in the new arena for much, much cheaper?

You're really stretching your already fragile credibility. The Fitz was crowded at 6K. No way it could be up to par. The additional facilities for the upper campus made it feasible....and the state kicked in a big chunk because it wasn't just a gym. The add'l revenue from BB sales has more than eclipsed the supposed gap. I guess you'd be fine with 10K or less for BB games in the Consol??

 

[Pghfan]

Good info guys, paco, well done.. I stand very much corrected

 

[HailtoPitt]

You're really stretching your already fragile credibility. The Fitz was crowded at 6K. No way it could be up to par. The additional facilities for the upper campus made it feasible....and the state kicked in a big chunk because it wasn't just a gym. The add'l revenue from BB sales has more than eclipsed the supposed gap. I guess you'd be fine with 10K or less for BB games in the Consol??

Let's look at this more closely. Pitt determines that the Field House was not feasible to be upgraded, and they move to the Civic Arena. If the Pens leave town, then Pitt still gets use of the arena. If Pens stay then Pitt works with them to use the new arena, like some other NFL and NCAA teams do now. Same thing as renting Heinz Field. The same arguments apply. Better arena. More parking, Easier access. etc etc. Pitt and the state save $160 million dollars and Pitt can use its portion to fund other purposes, like athletic endowments and other academic needs.

How is this not the same thing?