There is such a thing a voting with your wallet, it is a tool to not give after giving and many people sometimes/many times choose to do so. I would say it is a rare person who gives the way you and PittLaw suggest. Most people view giving like that as giving blind. I stopped giving after the Haywood fiasco. As I do not give ten's of thousands let alone hundreds of thousands, it was the only way my simple donation spoke to the administration that I don't trust them to do what is right. Many other people did the same and together I believe we spoke loud enough to allow many of the corrections we are starting to see. Now the trick is can the new AD bring those who left back and new people to give.
Price of success / Fan support
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There is such a thing a voting with your wallet, it is a tool to not give after giving and many people sometimes/many times choose to do so. I would say it is a rare person who gives the way you and PittLaw suggest. Most people view giving like that as giving blind. I stopped giving after the Haywood fiasco. As I do not give ten's of thousands let alone hundreds of thousands, it was the only way my simple donation spoke to the administration that I don't trust them to do what is right. Many other people did the same and together I believe we spoke loud enough to allow many of the corrections we are starting to see. Now the trick is can the new AD bring those who left back and new people to give.
i would have been completely pissed if we gave Chryst more money to stay here. He was a semi-embarrassment. Narduzzi is a much better head coach. Narduzzi knows how to get money to update facilities, which he has and are now top-notch. It is just night and day in terms of being the spokesman for Pitt football. Chryst was a great offensive mind, but definitely more of a coordinator.
Im very happy with the recruiting and what is going on with Pitt football
I get the "voting with your wallet" cliché, which has been trotted out many times here. No doubt, many have followed that creed. How about this cliché for consideration: By starving Pitt of much needed money, it is a self-fulfilling prophesy of failing to win. When funds dry up, there is no cash around to make the hires and improvements you claim to want. We still have a lot of alumni that think they are swinging a big one when they stroke a check for $1,000. That is nothing at a big time football school. Obviously Pitt wants and needs every bit anyone can muster, so if you love Pitt and want wins, pack away the bitter memories and petty grudges--and support this team and program to your fullest ability. It will yield results. Hail to Pitt!
If Pitt athletics were a business , which it is by the way , and they needed outside funding to expand and improve their business I'm afraid they'd find it just about impossible to find investors willing to help . How could anyone feel comfortable that their money would be used wisely . The past is just littered with horrible decisions .
Pitt is in a show me place for all , but the most loyal of fans . When you won't commit your own capital to a venture that would only benefit you financially it makes one question their commitment . Pitts the one that needs to step forward and fund any necessary future changes . ( coaches especially in Bb )
If they make a financial commitment and the fans and alumni don't respond then it's time to reevaluate your commitment to athletics .
My guess is that the Pitt administration made that calculation years ago. Considering the hay day of Pitt basketball and regularly competing for a Big East title and top seeds in the dance, did not move a needle on athletic fundraising. You may recall, Pitt was near the bottom of the old Big East in athletic fundraising too. Pitt hired the three finalists for the head football job [HC, OC, and DC] when they replaced Harris--a big investment. Did not move the needle. Knowing the former Chancellor as I do, pretty certain he figured Pitt athletic fans were just never going to produce the necessary money. Pitt invests where it gets its best ROI, which is medical school and ancillary enterprises related. Hail to Pitt!
I am not arguing with you that it will take much more support from many for Pitt to compete to where most of us want Pitt to compete at. But at some point you need to hold the decisions makers accountable and one way ( and I believe the best way) to do that is not give them funds. Do I need to remind you just how bad it was? Yes we need to look into the past to understand why were are in our current state.
Again, the way Pitt handled the whole Wanny situation (no matter if you wanted Wanny to stay or you thought he had to go) was absolutely pathetic. There is no way to screw that up more than what Pitt did. This is not revisionist history either, everyone saw all of this as it was transpiring.
This was Pitt's chance to go big, Penn St was down do to the scandal, Michigan was down going from Lloyd Carr to Rich Rod to Hoke, Ohio St was in trouble with the NCAA, and WVU was having issues from Rich Rod to Stewart to Holgy. It was Pitt's time to step up, never was their such a gift for Pitt football compared to our rivals and those other top programs we recruit against. Pitt did nothing for iteself.
Yet Pitt showed complete incompetency with firing Wanny. They allowed Wanny to do a Press Conference which turned into a PR nightmare, as those players loved the guy and showed up in full support of him at that press conference. Why where the players allowed to be there since despite Pitt claiming Wanny was resigning everyone knew he was fired? How did Pitt think that was going to portray to the public? If that wasn't bad enough they had no plain for a replacement and went cheap hired Hayward, (no reason to go further in that) only to need to overpay for Todd Graham who was a horrible fit here. Then actually allow Barry Alverez to convince them into hiring PC, knowing that Alverez was going to be calling PC home one day.
After seeing all of that, unless you were literally giving millions of dollars to Pitt Athletics, what other voice did you have to show the administration that you are fed up with it and do not trust it anymore. I will also state that even if you are giving millions of dollars the only way you would have been taken serious is if you threaten to not give unless significant changes were made. Lets say Pitt Fan #23 gives $40,000 (I am not claiming to donate this much, I do not have the financial means to be anywhere near this amount it is simply an amount I am using for demonstration reasons) a year which is a huge sum of money, but it is also not enough for you to make demands of the department. Which sparks more changes giving it to Pitt and thinking you are a super fan because you support Pitt through and through. Or say Pitt you screwed up and you can stuff it, get your act together and I will donate again. IMHO, thankfully there were enough donors who of all donation levels who walked away and demanded change. I am starting to see enough change that I am almost ready to pull the trigger to start donating again. It will take others more proof to donate. Call me and others who feel the way I did bandwagon fans if you like, it doesn't bother me. I am comfortable in my skin, I have nothing to prove to a bunch of anonymous people on the internet.
You are equating hiring Dave Wannstedt (who took a much lower salary at Pitt), Matt Cavanaugh, and Paul Rhoads as a "big investment"? Rhoads was a holdover and Cavanaugh was fired by the Ravens. Those weren't big time. The fact they were finalists for the job shows more incompetence, not a "big investment" by Pitt, which should have been lauded.
It was the highest paid football staff that Pitt had to that point in time. So yes, it was a pretty substantial investment. Could it have been more substantial? Probably yes. In retrospect, obviously those hires did not work as hoped. At the time, many were very excited. The Canada hire was largely panned by many here as hiring a journeymen retread coach that had just been fired by NCState of all places. How did that turn out? Most thought the hiring of Suzie et.al was brilliant...looking pretty shaky at the moment. Hail to Pitt!
They could have gone cheaper, sure, but it wasn't a "big investment". Wannstedt took a far below market salary and Cavanaugh wasn't exactly a big time play as he was going to be, at best recycled through a QB position in the NFL. He was the closest thing to a "big investment" of the 3 and it wasn't like Pitt made a big play for him or beat out bidders.
The Canada hire was another animal entirely and not really comparable, but he was at least sitting in a decent job when they convinced him to come to Pitt.
"Suzie" is the women's basketball coach, right? I think, ideally, Pitt wouldn't spend anymore than the absolute bare minimum there or any other non-MBB and FB sports until they fix those areas.
The biggest investment they have made in FB since the golden era was todd graham. They paid him 2 million plus 2 million for coaches, which at the time was pretty damn competitive. DW had a pretty good budget for coaches because he was taking a lower salary. If they would have used the 4 million that they gave to TG for the next coach Pitt FB would likely be in better shape. REmember that 4 million a year to TG was pre ACC
They stepped up for 11 years giving Dixon necessary raises and extensions to keep him. Every year schools were going after him.
And you keep acting like it's a professional team. It's not. And that is where you and others on here just don't get it. Pitt will remain in this rut because of this thinking. Oh well.
Nobody still has answered why Clemson made a bad hire with Dabo. I mean, he never had any head coaching experience when hired.
It worked out for them. I like the Narduzzi how and hopefully it works for us. All head coaching hoes are a gamble, but it is more of a gamble when they have no experience. So to answer your question it was a good how by them. There are others that were not.
Obviously winning sells tickets and encourages donations because everyone loves a winner and people love to vicariously associate themselves with a winner which, for some, seems to supplement their self esteem or sense of self worth. I get that, it is human nature, and I'm not immune to it either. But support that is reliant only on self gratification that comes with one's "team" winning big doesn't get a program through the inevitable down cycles where reliable consistent support becomes even more critical to climb back up. That's why programs like Texas that are down now, won't stay that way forever. That's why PSU is back. It's is obviously easier to navigate down periods when you have a larger base of reliably consistent supporters and donors to begin with.
But pertaining specifically to Pitt athletics, it has been more rare for people to give regularly and consistently than it is at peer athletic programs that have had equal or less success. That's been true for 40 years. You can look at straight up dollar amounts or as a % of alumni that donate. Those figures have been posted repeatedly and they are at the bottom of our peers.
Voting with your wallet is something customers do, not people that really care about and support a relatively small institution well known to be struggling with finding funding and keeping pace with peer institutions. For those that are supporters, not just customers, there are ways to voice displeasure by transiently dropping some support or moving money to different areas, but doing so in a way that keeps one's general support (and voice) intact because, one would assume, of an underlying belief in supporting the overall mission: whether it be the student athletes working their butts off every day, coaches putting in unfathomable hours, or an institution that will be soldiering on for the benefit and representation of Western Pennsylvania long after any particular individual staff members are gone.
The trigger point you cited for dropping support was something that happened two athletic administrations and three football coaches ago. I'm going to assume everyone here is enlightened enough to know how college athletics works financially, and how an athletic department is required to field more than just a football and basketball teams, and how the need have booster support to supplement its operations for things like the recruitment of athletes makes it significantly different from the business of professional athletics. If people have the intellectual capacity to grasp that, and I assume if one has the capacity to post on an internet message board that they do, then I have to conclude that a showmefirst attitude is just justification for not caring enough to give up any personal treasure to support the overall bigger picture of an institution's athletics programs. I'm not suggesting that anyone should care about a college athletic department enough to give up their personal treasure, but just don't expect such a person's complaints and excuses to resonate much with anyone that does.
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Did you say "head coaching hoes" on purpose? If so, greatest double-entendre ever! Or best auto-correct!
If we need a new coach again in the next few years, you pay enough , give enough money for asst and recruiting, you will attract big names. Then at that point , you show fans you are serious , start asking for funding from people.
Pitt lost a generation of fans over their OWN ineptitude
Pitt lost a generation of fans over their OWN ineptitude
And...how quickly we forget big wins against Clemson and PSU less than a year ago. A close YSU win is still a win. The season is still in its infancy and many fans have already written the team off.
Certainly not me. Pitt "fans" are a strange lot. They are world class excuse makers, for certain. Some of the cheapest folks I have ever encountered. Actually know people that gave up season tickets because they could buy tickets from scalpers for less money. Know people that have asked for a refund for an event because they were sick or something else came up. Honestly, it is shocking to me. On the other hand, the true Pitt fans are a loyal and generally a generous bunch [unfortunately not many in numbers]. Here is to a great 2017 season. Beat the Nits! Hail to Pitt!
You too easily dismiss people's lack of trust(trust lost for good reason) with the observation that these are people "looking for an excuse." That's a canard! Pitt's their own worse enemy and they should own up to it and stop blaming the fans and accusing them of being bandwagon supporters simply because they stopped overlooking the the acts of ineptitude and intentional actions undermining athletics. Regaining the trust of the Pitt fan base will take time and everyone will be watching what the administration does when the next big personnel decision arises. The onus is on Pitt not the fans. The Stallings hiring was a poor first step in trying to regain this trust. That's a certainty.
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The decision to subordinate FB to BB was in of itself a stupid decision so that Pitt shouldn't have been surprised that a resurgence in BB wouldn't significantly impact giving, particularly with the most arrogant and hated AD in Pitt's history being the guy asking for the donations.
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You think college athletics at the D1 isn't a professional league/ business ? The only difference is that the players are not being paid . I know your going to say they receive an education blah blah .. ,but I'd guarantee most would trade their tutition money for cash . The NCAA receives hundreds of million dollars per yr as does all the major conferences , Then there's the clothing and shoe deals , concessions , parking , ticket sales ,forced donations . It's a multi billion dollar a yr business .
Do you think they pay their coaches millions of dollars because their nice guys ? It's because they know a top coach can generate many more millions of dollars !
They did pay JD , but they squeezed him on assistant coaches salaries and recruiting budgets and showed him the door because they thought they could replace him with a less costly coach .
You watch , until Pitt is convinced that keeping KS is costing them money he won't be replaced no mater how bad a season or seasons he has . It's ALL ABOUT MONEY just like pro sports .
Your calling me dumb and you don't realize that this is a multi million business business that pays its coaches millions of dollars and administrators many hundreds of thousand dollars . You think it's all for the alma mater . Your clueless .
Paco,
I like and respect your opinion over the years you have shown great love to Pitt and that is commendable. With that said you are a little blind on the matter. You stated that the trigger point I cited was 2 administration and 3 coaches ago. You are proving my point because that was less than a decade ago. What other College program went through that much turnover in such a short time? Not many if any and I am willing to bet if they did that they are not good!
I bet you phrased it the way you did because to most people that sounds like a long time ago, but those who follow it knows how little time you have to go back. Then when you add the fact that for the 30 years before that trigger point Pitt still screwed up, you have a while lot of apathy from a few generations of lost fans.
You use Texas and Penn State as examples of people donating even when they are down and that is why they will rise again. Other than pre 1930's and 1974-1983 what has Pitt given fans to deserve that kind of support and trust? A few special players but not and a few big upsets but no memorable seasons, like Penn St and Texas gave there fans plenty of in the past 40 years. I was born in 1979, I did not see many top 25 finishes, but I seen many blown opportunities.
I am not an alumni, I went to a smaller college. I am a Pitt fan because I have been one since I was 6 years old. I donated to Pitt from age 23-31 because I knew they needed all the financial support it could get no matter how small it was as a 23 year old to a nice but still small potatoes cimpared to the real big money donations when I was 31.
But then Pitt made such bad mistakes which I documented and no one wants to touch because they know I am 100% right in my details, but I forgot one detail. The idiot AD who caused a lot of the issues was given a raise before he was terminated. I and many others choose to not give good money to chase bad money. I am again close to start donating again. I like Narduzzi and there are a lot of good signs I am seeing from the ADs office. While I may not be giving 10's of thousands, Pitt needs all it can get. The way you and PittLaw act, I should take my bandwagon money and go else where. That is not welcoming.
I like and respect your opinion over the years you have shown great love to Pitt and that is commendable. With that said you are a little blind on the matter. You stated that the trigger point I cited was 2 administration and 3 coaches ago. You are proving my point because that was less than a decade ago. What other College program went through that much turnover in such a short time? Not many if any and I am willing to bet if they did that they are not good!
I bet you phrased it the way you did because to most people that sounds like a long time ago, but those who follow it knows how little time you have to go back. Then when you add the fact that for the 30 years before that trigger point Pitt still screwed up, you have a while lot of apathy from a few generations of lost fans.
You use Texas and Penn State as examples of people donating even when they are down and that is why they will rise again. Other than pre 1930's and 1974-1983 what has Pitt given fans to deserve that kind of support and trust? A few special players but not and a few big upsets but no memorable seasons, like Penn St and Texas gave there fans plenty of in the past 40 years. I was born in 1979, I did not see many top 25 finishes, but I seen many blown opportunities.
I am not an alumni, I went to a smaller college. I am a Pitt fan because I have been one since I was 6 years old. I donated to Pitt from age 23-31 because I knew they needed all the financial support it could get no matter how small it was as a 23 year old to a nice but still small potatoes cimpared to the real big money donations when I was 31.
But then Pitt made such bad mistakes which I documented and no one wants to touch because they know I am 100% right in my details, but I forgot one detail. The idiot AD who caused a lot of the issues was given a raise before he was terminated. I and many others choose to not give good money to chase bad money. I am again close to start donating again. I like Narduzzi and there are a lot of good signs I am seeing from the ADs office. While I may not be giving 10's of thousands, Pitt needs all it can get. The way you and PittLaw act, I should take my bandwagon money and go else where. That is not welcoming.
This isn't a nonprofit organization that feeds , cloths and shelter the needy . However it is an organization that will sell your seat out from under you if someone's willing to pay them more money for it . Your right I don't get your point .
You seem to be confused that your complaints and excuses resonate with me. It's not my job to make you feel welcome. Do whatever you want with your money, just don't expect me to approve or applaud your admitted continued lack of support for Pitt athletics because things didn't go they way that you (or anyone) wanted seven years ago.
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Paco,
I am not confused and yes it is your job (not one you realize you have nor one you get paid to do) to make me or anyone feel welcome to give to Pitt. I just feel that as an ambassadors of Pitt (which you most defiantly are with the way you talk and act about Pitt, and how high profile you are among Pitt Athletic fans on these boards) you would want to take a softer approach. Let me put it to you this way as an analogy. There are 3 main groups of Christians, you have the bad Christians who claim to be Christian but they do wrong things and don't care to change. You have Good Christians they may make mistakes but they try to live a decent life as they praise the Lord. Then you have the Bible Thumpers. This group are the ones who criticize other and try to shame them into Christianity or better lives. This group is the group that gives Christians a bad name and people hate being around and avoid them. You are acting like Pitt's version of a Bible Thumper and that is the point I am stating about not being welcoming.
I have thick skin, it matters not what anonymous posters think of me. I don't need nor seek your approval or applause. We are on a Pitt message board and I am stating one persons REASONS for not giving anymore. Call it excuses all you want if it makes you feel better, but those are my REASONS. In case if you haven't noticed I am not alone, because many others walked with there feet and money already around the same time. I am just telling you in case if you interact with others of thinner skin since you are an ambassador of Pitt.
Again like it or not, you are an ambassador of Pitt, not me. I am simply stating the reality of the current situation. That reality of how incompetent Pitt looked in RECENT PAST and that Pitt was Pitt's worse enemy. It will be an up hill battle that Pitt is partaking in winning those donors back. Again I like some of the things I see from this new administration, but the majority of people are not going to give unless they feel it will be put to good use. I give money to other charities too of way more importance than Pitt Athletics. If I felt they were not using the funds appropriately (it is amazing how bad some big name charities are at actually supporting the causes they claim to support) I would stop giving to them too and find a new charity that I felt did a better job. That is reality,and many people feel and act how I do when it comes to charities or business which Pitt Athletics is in a unique position of being both and in recent history they have not been good at either end.
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What it boils down to is that people who have great memories of their time at Pitt would be more apt to donate going forward. And after that, those who are donating now, need some occasional meaningful success to be able to hold on to, as continued reason to keep giving. It's just how most people are. People are usually willing to give, but seek assurance that the donations will be wisely used. All the litany of negative events, and very few positives, for many years that above folks posted are relevant for these reasons. They are what are preventing current and future donations.
If a charity is caught having its money improperly used or stolen, and no indication that the problem has been rectified, fewer are going to keep donating to the charity, and getting new donors will be more difficult. Pitt athletics is a similar situation. Each year it seems, there are black eye events (lcoaches, AD, high profile suspensions, sometimes really ugly loses like almost occurred last week, etc) that counter and often smother any successes.
But I also realize that then hampers future investment. So its a vicious cycle. I actually don't know how it gets broken, other than a really deep pockets white knight riding in, like a Pickens, and I don't know that Pitt has any.
If a charity is caught having its money improperly used or stolen, and no indication that the problem has been rectified, fewer are going to keep donating to the charity, and getting new donors will be more difficult. Pitt athletics is a similar situation. Each year it seems, there are black eye events (lcoaches, AD, high profile suspensions, sometimes really ugly loses like almost occurred last week, etc) that counter and often smother any successes.
But I also realize that then hampers future investment. So its a vicious cycle. I actually don't know how it gets broken, other than a really deep pockets white knight riding in, like a Pickens, and I don't know that Pitt has any.
Wow. I hate to break it to you, but I'm just a fan on a sports message board. Welcome to my ignore list. I suggest you reciprocate because you clearly shouldn't be reading my posts.
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In fairness, what did he say that was wrong. It may be a little harsh on his characterization of you, but those things do turn people off and his comparison of Pitt to poorly run or misappropriating charities is pretty spot on.
Do not disagree with you here. But at some point, people have to forgive or forget and move on. If you want to be pissed off and hold a grudge based upon historical bad things in Pitt athletics--I get it there is tons of fodder to be angry for several lifetimes. People that love Pitt--will support Pitt in all ways that they are able. Hail to Pitt!
Misappropriating charities? That's absolute BS. You are equating something improper or illegal with legitimate decisions that failed or didn't work to peoples' expectations in a highly competitive enterprise where there are no guarantees of success and 70 to 100 other institutions are trying to attain the same thing with often much greater resources. To be clear, there hasn't been anything improper with Pitt fundraising since the Golden Panthers were embezzling money in the 80s.
Not to equate the importance of the two, but you are suggesting is analogous to saying that it is a reasonable conclusion for someone to end support the National Parkinson's Foundation because they've existed for 50 years yet they aren't anywhere near having a cure, perhaps based on a determined that they "clearly" keep funding the wrong research grants. That's an ignorance of how things actually work in that field of endeavor, and you see plenty of similar ignorance in the Pitt fan base because they either don't know or refuse to accept how college athletics and universities operate, refuse to accept institutional realities specific to the University of Pittsburgh, and certainly aren't privy to details about why certain moves are made or not made. You can go neck deep in debt trying to do what on paper is a can't miss, like hiring the hottest coach in the country, and it can end up being a complete flop. You can go bottom of the barrel, and end up with a future hall of fame coach. It's athletics, there are no guarantees on what things will work, although money does buy more rolls of the die. No one is saying Pitt hasn't royally f*ed up in some of their moves, historically or recently. But many people seem to think that some of these more recent things are intentional, or institutionalized policy of athletic deemphasis, or the university's administration just doesn't care, or that is some institutional piggy bank they refuse to tap into, or that failed decisions are a phenomena unique to Pitt. Those people are flat out ignorant or they are just latching on to invented narratives for them and their like-minded compatriots to justify their unwillingness to help in an area that has been clearly demonstrated as one of Pitt athletics' biggest disadvantages.
So don't try to sell me any BS that someone cares about Pitt athletics when they are banging their chest about how big of a fan they are while making excuses for reasons not to support it for years at a time. I'm not going to nod approvingly at their unwillingness to help tow the line in order to help them sleep at night.
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Tell you what, if you are concerned about how your money will be used...put strings on it. Donate exclusively for athletic scholarships. Nobody can argue that student scholarship money is wasteful. Pitt does not even raise enough to pay for all NCAA scholarships for all sports offered. So...start now! If you need a contact in athletics to start giving to scholarships...let me know, would be happy to hook you up! Hail to Pitt!
Actually, athletic scholarships do feed, shelter, educate and train young people to be better people and provide a foundation for a better future in life. I cannot think of many more noble or worthy causes than that. Many of these kids would never have such an opportunity if it were not for these athletic scholarships. Hail to Pitt!
Obviously (hopefully) most know that is where all general Panther Club donations go...to the athletic scholarship fund. Only designated facility (Championship) funds and the like are used elsewhere.
