Rothstein Off-season ACC rankings
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Mike Cook played in Conference USA when it was a real league. Mike Cook was a big guard who used his body against smaller guards and used his quickness against forwards. He was the ultimate mismatch as a 3rd option. He also enjoyed a full year of practice against the premier program in the Big East before he started playing with elite talent developers.
The comparisons stop at being transfers. He isn’t close to the level of transfer Cook was. Cook would be going to a blue blood in the portal era. This can’t be a serious comparison
Last years version of the A10 was the worst A10 since I’ve been alive. The competition compared to the old conference USA isn’t close
Unfortunately, I agree with you. Cook would have been a top 10 transfer if he was coming out today.
Hopefully Fede becomes a better rebounder, especially on the defensive end. Bit there is really nothing about his offensive game that would suggest his scoring will increase. In fact, it could go down a little because I don’t know if he’ll benefit from dribble drive dump chances as much as he did with Jamarius and Nelly.
I would say likely not, but he has a really good PG, I would not be surprised to see him approach 10 PPG more than others in this thread. The reason is that his buckets are generally of the hustle variety and those things get accentuated with a really good PG.
Most of his points are beating guys down the floor and on pick and rolls. Really good PGs create more of those types of opportunities.
So, I guess my end answer is, how good are Johnson and Lowe really? If they are very good, do not be surprised to see him score more than one would think.
For those wondering on Ishmael and what he has done in the past, Im going to give a little extra history here.
Anyone that reads my posts know I follow AAU summer play and the EYBL very closely.
Ishmael Leggett indeed played in the EYBL for a very familiar team. That team is Team Durant, who is always loaded with 4 star and 5 star players and most years a contender at Peach Jam Finals. And that team is heavily recruited by Jeff Capel every single year. And I watch them every single year.
Leggett was no different, his Team Durant squad was really good and featured other stud players that were 5 stars like Earl Timberlake that did significant damage in the EYBL and were in the finals bracket at Peach Jam .
Leggett's EYBL stats for the entire schedule are as follows
16.2 ppg
49% FG
46% 3 point (7-15 shooting)
76% FT
4.2 rebounds per game
2.7 assist per game
.9 turnover per game
1.2 steal per game
He also was a 1st team all met selection and 1st team all wcac selection in high school and was the leading scorer on a team with 2 other Top 100 4 star recruits in high school.
All that said, those EYBL numbers from Leggett are big time and are right in line with Mintz, Dior, Justin Champagnie, Carrington etc.. And his squad only lost 4 games in the EYBL regular season when Leggett played.
And all that said, I would be very very surprised if Leggett is not in the top 3 in scoring on next years team with Dior and Hinson.
Anyone that reads my posts know I follow AAU summer play and the EYBL very closely.
Ishmael Leggett indeed played in the EYBL for a very familiar team. That team is Team Durant, who is always loaded with 4 star and 5 star players and most years a contender at Peach Jam Finals. And that team is heavily recruited by Jeff Capel every single year. And I watch them every single year.
Leggett was no different, his Team Durant squad was really good and featured other stud players that were 5 stars like Earl Timberlake that did significant damage in the EYBL and were in the finals bracket at Peach Jam .
Leggett's EYBL stats for the entire schedule are as follows
16.2 ppg
49% FG
46% 3 point (7-15 shooting)
76% FT
4.2 rebounds per game
2.7 assist per game
.9 turnover per game
1.2 steal per game
He also was a 1st team all met selection and 1st team all wcac selection in high school and was the leading scorer on a team with 2 other Top 100 4 star recruits in high school.
All that said, those EYBL numbers from Leggett are big time and are right in line with Mintz, Dior, Justin Champagnie, Carrington etc.. And his squad only lost 4 games in the EYBL regular season when Leggett played.
And all that said, I would be very very surprised if Leggett is not in the top 3 in scoring on next years team with Dior and Hinson.
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Greatest coach of all time?
Results matter, and Pitino doesn't have anywhere near the results to justify e place in the discussion of best all time.
The guy only has 2 titles, with one vacated.
Hell, even of his proteges won back to back titles at a job Pitino advised him not to take because Rick didn't think it was possible to win there.
No, I don’t. I think we have too many other scorers for him to get more than about 8/game. He is never going to be the focal point of the offense.
I agree that they will be the 3 high scores with Hinson at 17-20, Dior 12-14 and Leggett 10-12.
I remember when Cook transferred and we had many discussions on here about him. We didnt take many transfers back then and Pitt fans were more snobby. An East Carolina transfer? They were terrible. He scored because no one else could. That's what people were saying. I said CUSA was a really good league (Lou, Cincy, Memphis, Marquette, etc) and he wont score 15 PPG but would be a big contributor. I feel the same about Leggett. The A10 isnt Cook's CUSA and yes, its pretty much a 1 bid league now but its still better than leagues like the MAC, MAAC, Southern, etc who pump out really good transfers.
I think he's got a good bit more untapped potential, so I do think he could get there, yes.
However, the twins, particularly G, have upside also, and unless Fede improves to the point that he really demands the pt, he will not get the minutes to do it.
Hilarious that you reference something you “were right about” that you absolutely cannot prove. How are Femi and Hugley looking as national players?
Cook had a skill set that could be useful. Leggett isn’t a shooter. He isn’t a bigger guard. He has nothing to separate him from any 2 guard in the ACC
It’s not even close. As I’ve said, he’s the greatest pure basketball coach that’s ever lived. There isn’t one coach in the nation who wants to see Rick in a one game situation with even teams. They were beating UConn at halftime in the NCAA tournament (UConn’s toughest game) strictly because of Rick. There ain’t another dude in the country who can do what he does
So he was go great on the EYBL he went to Rhode Island? Your comparisons are terrible
Referencing 4 year old stats from AAU isn’t the argument helper you think
LoL. UCONN literally won by 24 points over Iona.
Rick spent a quarter of a century at 2 schools that will do almost anything, and spend enormous amounts of money to win. With all of that at his disposal, he came away with 2 titles. (one vacated)
4 of his 6 UK NCAA tourney teams lost to equal or lower rated seeds. Actually, only one of those 4 losses was to an equal seed - a loss to the all freshman Fab Five. The 93-94 squad dropped an absolute clunker of a game to Marquette. Marquette totally controlled tempo and Pitino was thoroughly outcoached by Kevin freaking O'Neil.
Great coach, sure. Best of all time is hyperbole. The results don't back it up.
They were a hair from 3 straight at Kentucky and who knows how many more had he not gone to the NBA and handed over to Tubby. There isn’t one coach in the country who would say given even teams they wouldn’t take Rick Pitino. Not one. He’s the best COACH of all time
Honestly unless G gets hurt I’d be surprised is Fede is starting by conference play. If not sooner.
G does everything Fede can do almost as well already and is a better passer and can actually shoot.
Fede is better on defense- on the blocks and recovering from a hedge. If GDG can improve there he should be starting but that means he's gotten much stronger and quicker- those are easier said than done.
As you note, GDG needs to improve his post defense if he is to catch Fede as the best guy to start as the post.
However, there is also the factor of scoring ability near the basket--dunks, put backs, etc. to be considered--a skill that involves learning the footwork for back to the basket play. In that aspect, GDG has a ways to go to reach Fede's level. As of last season, Fede was a lot better at those post-player skills.
What GDG's has that Fede doesn't is a forward's game (i.e., he can face the basket and shoot the jump shot and put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket) but, as mentioned, he needs to add/improve his post-player skills to catch Fede.
Improvements by GDG on both defense and offense to match Fede as Pitt's best post-player option will also require GDG to get physically stronger.
Per the video discussion, both GDG and his brother have been working in the weight room on increasing their strength and on better nutrition in their eating habits without a specific focus on trying to add weight. Nevertheless, that effort to eat better and gain strength should become reflected in some nominal weight gain. Once the roster info is updated again (assuming it will be) before the start of the season (after heights and weights are re-measured) we should see the Twins listed as slightly heavier if they have gained strength. How much we should we see can only be a guess. My W.A.G. would be about 10-15 lbs --- from 190 to about 200-205 for JDG and from 205 to about 210-215 for GDG.
Look at the efficiency stats in ACC conference play on Torvik and your conclusions will change on a number of things regarding these 2 players. Especially with regard to rebounding where Fede was to the point of non existent at the end of the season because any post player that pulled him away from the basket on defense he became next to useless on defense and on the glass. He cant guard anywhere outside of 12 feet or so besides the Hedge and our team was consistently crushed on the boards because of it.
On the other hand, G's stats heavily improved as the season went on. Ive documented this many times and its all there on Torvik when you dig into it. His stats were very good the last 4 games of the season too, 2 of which were NCAA Tournament games that we won.
Sounds like DeAndre Kane, another player I thought we needed badly but many on here said his FG% was too low
It’s one of those things were the stats do not actually meet reality. Guillermo was the mark against Xavier and Pitt’s defensive performance against both Duke and Xavier (let alone other times throughout the year) without Fede was a drastic drop off. Fede essentially holds the defense together and is the major player for them on that end of the floor. The help, the speed, the shot blocking presence down low, the hustle.
It’s pretty easy to argue that the games against MSU and ISU were solid defensively because those teams laid a ton of bricks and preferred getting into street fights which Pitt was much better positioned to do at this stage due to their age.
I like Guillermo a good deal but I tend to think the defensive stats that people cite at times lack all context. He is nowhere near Fede as a defender except on post up plays and a lot of Fede’s rebounding efficiency on defense can be fixed by him not committing as much to blocks and playing himself out of position.
There are large qualitative reasons why a healthy Fede played 25-30 and some games Guillermo barely got off the bench last year.
I definitely believe that Guillermo should have more of an improvement curve but still would be largely surprised if he started over Fede at any time during this upcoming season. Fede means too much to them on defense and the gap there is quite large. He also has the respect of the room which means a ton on a team.
Guillermo had a box score advanced efficiency BPM against Xavier of+ 7.7 which was one of the best on Pitts team. He also had 11 points, 8 rebounds, 3 blocks, 2 assists, and a steal against Xavier on 58% shooting. And he did all that as a true freshmen going up against a 5th year senior all big east selection.
Your problems with Xavier were
1) Nelly Cummings shooting 3-14 with 3 turnovers and 4 fouls.
2) Pitt gave up 8 three points baskets in the first half with poor perimeter defense when Xavier blew the game open in the first half.
3) Colby Jones had 14 rebounds in this game as a 6'5 guard. Although our guards were consistency beat on the glass all year long when you have undersized non athletic guards at multiple positions.
1) If you want to get a great look with with Im talking about with regarding to Fede and when our entire defense started to fall off a cliff, watch the Pitt Virginia Tech highlights of this game where Fede got exposed badly.
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Once again, I think that you are quoting a stat that is just not indicative of much. If you watch the actual Xavier game, they just kept running Guillermo off places and put him in really bad spots. He was lost over and over again. He was exposed very badly that game and was undoubtedly the weakest link on the floor.
He was just a freshman and certainly has a lot of capability to improve. And one game is not the end all of any player. But Fede is an All-Conference level defender whereas Guillermo was a spot minute guy that would not have been on the floor at the end of the year save injury. They just are not reasonably comparable and it is no coincidence Pitt had their worst later end of the year defensive performances when Fede was not available.
I have no problems arguing for Guillermo’s upside and I think his time is probably about two years off. But let’s see him actually show up for a stretch of games in a meaningful way before trying to displace a guy that was the centerpiece of their entire defense (and a good one at that).
Once again and I am saying this nicely, I think you are delusional if you think Fede is all conference level player on defense. Simply put, are you crazy? Did you even watch the video I posted above where Fede was killing our entire team?
Guillermo has a far better defensive rebound rate, a higher steal rate, and a higher block rate than Fede in ACC Conference play.
Let's not even consider those stats above. Lets look at these below.
Fede's DR rebound rate the last 10 games of the season.
10, 0 15, 5, 5, 15, 27, 14, 8, 0
As a center in the ACC, you almost have to try to not rebound the ball to be THAT bad on the glass. That is almost as bad as 5'11 Nelly Cummings at point guard.
Im going to say this in a nice way. Pitt's defense last year the last 10 games of the season with Fede ranked 248th best in the country. That is atrocious for a Power 6 team and its almost a miracle we finished the season the way we did. There was nothing good about our defense last year as a team outside of some play from Burton.
No one on last years team was remotely close to all conference worthy on the defensive side of the basketball and I would consider Burton a plus defender.
Have we really gotten to the point on this forum of what a quality defender looks like? Julius Page, Jaron Brown, Gary Mcheee, Brad Wanamaker, those are Elite all conference level defenders and our defense played like it.
Sorry, but I am not even remotely close to agreeing with you. In fact, I think Fede's defense is grossly overrated.
Every single team that pulled him away from the basket we got killed as a team on defense. It started with the Virginia Tech game and I posted the highlights above. Once the blueprint was there on how to expose Fede, team after team kept pulling him from the basket and the entire defense collapsed at the end of the season.
Mostly agree about Fede being the centerpiece of the defense. I
also would add he was clearly less than 100% after his knee injury.
I think they'll score 3-4 points less than season! Leggett (Rhode Island) 4 less for 12 points, Austin (High Point) 3 less for 11, just like Cummings (Colgate) did 14 down to 11 with Pitt! Elliott (Marquette) score more than his previous season, were he scored 7 at Pitt he avg 3 more for 10!
Hinson will average 20 this year. He will have a green light and sell seats for Pitt. I wholly expect 12 3 attempts from him a game with Dior passing him good looks. Without Dior, I expect even more shots for him. Dude will be better conditioned. Just a question of whether Dior will be selfish or not with his own drives and shots. The team will go through Blake regardless of whether Dior makes it through or not. They need a second threat though and the twins offer a three threat that Fede does not.
You keep quoting stats but one guy plays against the top competition and the other guy plays low minutes off the bench. The rates are not useless, but they lack value.
I think the greatest indicator of who is who and what is what is that before Fede was hurt against GT, he played over 20 MPG each game except one after Hugley was gone. In that same stretch, Guillermo played over 20 minutes once. Just a single game.
It is pretty solid indicator of who the coaches thought offered more value and I think even Fede's biggest fan would tell you that he does not Diaz-Graham's base offensive skill. So, why was he playing? Because of his physicality without a doubt (and Guillermo's lack thereof), but also because he was really good at a few things, specifically defense and hustle points.
Last year, we had really similar discussions about John Hugley. He offers this, he offers that. Here are some stats. How dare you question his value? Look at the upside, etc. Few people wanted to actually look at him from possession to possession, see the lack of effort, the breakdowns, the draining of possessions on O. How he left his teammates out to dry. It was all very visible.
Everything with Fede if you watch the games is very visible the opposite way. They certainly were not an outstanding defensive team last year by any stretch. But, Fede made them a lot better. He is as good defensively as some of the excellent interior players that have come through Pitt in the last 20 years and as he gets more strength in his base and calms down, he will certainly improve more on that end. It is no coincidence that they were much better with him and without Hugley (which also unfortunately speaks a lot to Hugley).
If you cannot easily see how he protected Nelly and the guards in general, allowed Greg/Nike to play overly aggressive and would cover for Hinson as he was tiring through the year, I think that you need to watch again. His team defense was excellent and a lot of plays that you likely saw as negative for him were probably him adhering/enhancing the team concept and being in places that he never should have been but for his athleticism and recognition (which is very underrated).
And yes, teams wanted to pull him away from the hoop because he was such a factor near the hoop and pulling him away allowed teams to concentrate on taking advantage of the other guys on the floor because Fede is not sitting there to protect them. You quote it as a negative but it actually speaks to the strength and quality of the guy, which brings a bit of humor.
To your first paragraph, all I can say to you is to each their own, but at the same time I would encourage to watch more games, specifically from possession to possession.
Fede certainly has a lot of things to improve and I think the upside is limited due to the offense. Whereas with Guillermo, he is all upside because it is easy to see him being impactful on offense and he certainly is willing and long on defense. But, I think the playing time, even you want to look at things at their most basic, tells the tale. If Guillermo offered that much value, he would have played a lot more. He should improve at a much more quick rate, but he has a lot of ground to cover.
As a Pitt fan, I hope that he really causes a battle over playing time with Fede, because if he does, it means that he improved a lot. And, the team is a lot better. He did not cause a battle by any means last year and was on the floor by grace of Fede being hurt (at the same time, they were doing everything possible to get Fede back to as many minutes as possible).
The likelihood here is that Guillermo becomes a more consistent guy this year, actually has a nice number of games where he does play more than Fede because he gets hot on O and then the following season the starting job is more of a battle as he learns the American game more and grows into his body. Fede still gets the bulk of the play this year but all in all, the overall play is better because the starter improved some while the backup took a nice leap.
That said, to make the leap to go over Fede presently is probably asking him to do too much, because I just cannot see him eclipsing the defensive value and with a lot of young guards rolling around, Capel will want the guy that he knows will play very hard, is an athletic factor and can/will erase mistakes at the hoop. Fede is that guy. .
I generally watch each Pitt game twice, with the 2nd game on record.
You aren't addressing anything that I said. You didn't watch the video I posted either. Fede was a good defender the first half of the season and maybe a little more past that. Its the second half of the season his defense fell of a cliff as did the team.
Fede couldnt guard bigs that can shoot from the midrange and from 3. Its a major problem because he severely lacks court awareness and speed away from the basket. Its the same problem as to why his defensive rebounding is at the very bottom of the entire power 6 for centers. You cant consider anyone Elite on the defensive end if they cant rebound. And Fede cant rebound.
Norchad Omier, Nate Laziewski, Grant Basile, Jesse Edwards, etc.. the list goes on and on the back end of the season of post players that destroyed us. How are you saying anybody is playing good defense when they are giving up almost 20 and 10 to guys like this and these guys are all shooting very high shooting percentages. Seriously?
Yea, Fede helped cover up from the weak guards on the defensive end in certain stretches. He still got abused defensively by the better centers in the league on the back stretch of the schedule when we were consistently losing games and our defense ranked almost 250th in the country the last 10 games with Fede.
With all that said, Guillermo took over the full starting position the last 4 games of the season against 4 straight NCAA Tournament teams including the ACC Champion Duke and a Sweet 16 Xavier. His stats speak for themselves, they were good across the board. Was he good on defense? No, but he was average.
Our team defensive DRTG Power rating the last 4 games without Fede and with G were 135, 96, 64, and 97. The 135 we got blown off the court by Duke. The other 3 games against NCAA Teams, The defense was as good as it was going all the way back to early February.
I keep telling you its the Virginia Tech game onward where severe problems occurred. You can see these problems yourself with the link below. You can also look at the box scores of other teams players scoring at will against Fede the back stretch of the season. I also posted a video for you to watch it.
T-Page for Pittsburgh - Customizable College Basketball Tempo Free Stats - T-Rank
T-Rank College Basketball Ratings and Rankings. And fun.
barttorvik.com
That isn't happening.
There is no way Fede is getting 30 minutes per game and he certainly is not coming close to 8 rebounds per game.
All stats aside - purely a gut feeling. Let’s see what happens.
7 ppg, 5.6 rebounds, and 24 .4 minutes last year.
7 ppg, 5.6 rebounds, and 24 .4 minutes last year.
I think some aren't accounting for the very year possibility that Fede has a lot more upside.
He still has limited basketball experience in the US, like one year at One Love, one at Northern Oklahoma and last year with Pitt.
IMO, he has plus physical talent as a post player. He is not a monster, had good height and length, not monster, but a pretty good build to him, he is a quick and explosive jumper, has balance and coordination. So, he has the physical talent to be a good, not just OK, but good ACC big man.
At the same time, he showed some really good innate basketball feel and instincts, particularly as Chair has repeatedly noted, on defense.
With his physical talent and one year under his belt at this level, there is a lot of upward variability for his development.
He still has limited basketball experience in the US, like one year at One Love, one at Northern Oklahoma and last year with Pitt.
IMO, he has plus physical talent as a post player. He is not a monster, had good height and length, not monster, but a pretty good build to him, he is a quick and explosive jumper, has balance and coordination. So, he has the physical talent to be a good, not just OK, but good ACC big man.
At the same time, he showed some really good innate basketball feel and instincts, particularly as Chair has repeatedly noted, on defense.
With his physical talent and one year under his belt at this level, there is a lot of upward variability for his development.
I agree with what you said here. He does have good upside, even great upside if you want to call it that. He showed some good potential in some games last year "around the basket". He had good games last year and was a big reason we won some games. All those things are true.
But he also showed severe limitations as the year progressed and those issues need to be addressed for this season.
All that said, he will play a decent amount this year and should be improved year over year. But his playing time is going to be restricted with the large improvement over the course of last season with Guillermo and with Papa Kante.
What I’m really just excited about is that we have definitely two, and maybe even three centers who I think we can all feel pretty good about starting a game for us and being a guy out there who contributes to winning.
Feels like overnight the position has turned into the one with the most depth on the roster, and probably one of the best groups in the conference.
Feels like overnight the position has turned into the one with the most depth on the roster, and probably one of the best groups in the conference.
Yeah ... I think HCJC has shown he will play who he feels can help him win on any given night, and that there will probably be an even split between Fede and G, Papa is a wild card, hard to know ...
In related news, the "greatest coach of all time" is now 14-11 and has a bottom 3 team in the BE.
wow. Now he must not be? What an odd pull to try and troll me that *checks notes* Rick Pitino isn't the greatest coach of all time? You people need serious help.
In related news, in year 1 Rick has a better NET and KenPom than Pitt. They're also the first team out according to bracket matrix.
Wait until you see what he does with the mafia NIL $ this offseason. Will make Ohio State's football offseason seem like child's play.
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