The entire sport of college football needs to take some Ex-Lax and allow itself some gentle overnight relief...

[NCPitt]

Please explain why you think that college football fans, who are also almost certainly fans of pro football and college basketball and the like, will not be able to understand that teams with more than one loss will be able to compete for a championship and will rebel if their team loses a couple of games, even if their team still makes the playoffs.

It simply doesn't make any sense.

Moving the goalposts, I see. I never said "more than 1 loss. I said 4 loss seasons. "4" and season"s".

You want proof. Just look at Pittsburgh. Are the Steeler and Pen fans happy the few seasons. These are teams that have established a threshold for success among their fans. They've made the playoffs and failed to advance regularly. The fans want the teams blown up and the coaches replaced.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Why would it matter to you?

Currently, Pitt (and every D1 school) admits athletes who score only the minimum on the SAT and have the minimum GPA. Many Pitt athletes wouldn't have gotten into to IUP or WVU let alone Pitt if not for football. And besides that, many are passed through in majors designed simply to keep them eligible. Now, many will be paid by boosters. How have we not already sold-out? You're ok with how we and every D1 operates currently?

Yeah that's a line less successful program's fans use. I mean, does a Georgetown education take a hit based on some of the Thompson teams of the 80's? How many guys on those teams would have been admitted to Georgetown? Do you think ND grads worried about the worth of their degrees when they started admitting guys like Tony Rice and Jerome Bettis and won a title? Michigan with the Fab Five?

Again, I go back to those days.......Pitt in the late 70's, early 80's? I'll take that and everything that comes with it.

But in someways, I understand. Ohio State is a very good school. Very good. But people only think of it in football terms. Same with Miami. Some schools like Michigan, Duke, ND, USC somehow can navigate between the two with reputation, but others sometimes I think their academics take a bit of a hit perception wise.

 

[PittPharm2002]

I do know how the majority think. It isn't in line with your thinking.

Swing and a miss

 

[PittPharm2002]

Yeah that's a line less successful program's fans use. I mean, does a Georgetown education take a hit based on some of the Thompson teams of the 80's? How many guys on those teams would have been admitted to Georgetown? Do you think ND grads worried about the worth of their degrees when they started admitting guys like Tony Rice and Jerome Bettis and won a title? Michigan with the Fab Five?

Again, I go back to those days.......Pitt in the late 70's, early 80's? I'll take that and everything that comes with it.

But in someways, I understand. Ohio State is a very good school. Very good. But people only think of it in football terms. Same with Miami. Some schools like Michigan, Duke, ND, USC somehow can navigate between the two with reputation, but others sometimes I think their academics take a bit of a hit perception wise.

This is the correct take .

athletic success raises your profile which allows for more selective admissions .

pitt is 10x harder to get into now than in the 70s to 90s

 

[NCPitt]

Swing and a miss

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Moving the goalposts, I see. I never said "more than 1 loss. I said 4 loss seasons. "4" and season"s".

You want proof. Just look at Pittsburgh. Are the Steeler and Pen fans happy the few seasons. These are teams that have established a threshold for success among their fans. They've made the playoffs and failed to advance regularly. The fans want the teams blown up and the coaches replaced.

Yes, let's look at Pittsburgh. Were Stiller fans happier at the end of the season in 2005, when they had to go on a winning streak just to end up 11-5 and make the playoffs as a six seed, or were they happier in 2004 when they had the best record in the league at 15-1?

Answer that question correctly and you will see why your argument makes literally no sense.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

This is the correct take .

athletic success raises your profile which allows for more selective admissions .

pitt is 10x harder to get into now than in the 70s to 90s

Very much so. It has passed Penn State by. But you never hear this from the locals, but you can see this from the amount of out of area enrollees.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Moving the goalposts, I see. I never said "more than 1 loss. I said 4 loss seasons. "4" and season"s".

You want proof. Just look at Pittsburgh. Are the Steeler and Pen fans happy the few seasons. These are teams that have established a threshold for success among their fans. They've made the playoffs and failed to advance regularly. The fans want the teams blown up and the coaches replaced.

Can we be realistic? Lets say the P2 only end up playing P2 games. That basically means 2 more losses. Bama goes 10-2 instead of 12-0. OSU goes 9-3 instead of 11-1. PSU goes 7-5 instead of 9-3. Those 2 extra losses vs a much more difficult schedule, and in what would be a new pro league where other teams can spend to level the playing field, will not cause fans to leave the sport. Fans of THOSE teams will follow the sport more than ever with an expanded playoff and games vs Troy and Akron off the schedule. The notion that these fans will become irate that their team is losing 2 more games per year vs a very difficult schedule is simply ridiculous.

The fans I do think that leave the P2 are its casual fans, fans of other teams who would normally tune in when their team isnt playing. I think the P2 is making a grave mistake if they exclude the teams that they probably will. People like us watch college football because we have a team in it. Take out Pitt, NC State, Cincinnati, Utah, etc and you take away too many fans

 

[NCPitt]

Yes, let's look at Pittsburgh. Were Stiller fans happier at the end of the season in 2005, when they had to go on a winning streak just to end up 11-5 and make the playoffs as a six seed, or were they happier in 2004 when they had the best record in the league at 15-1?

Answer that question correctly and you will see why your argument makes literally no sense.

We're in 2022. Have they been happy the last 5 years?

 

[NCPitt]

Can we be realistic? Lets say the P2 only end up playing P2 games. That basically means 2 more losses. Bama goes 10-2 instead of 12-0. OSU goes 9-3 instead of 11-1. PSU goes 7-5 instead of 9-3. Those 2 extra losses vs a much more difficult schedule, and in what would be a new pro league where other teams can spend to level the playing field, will not cause fans to leave the sport. Fans of THOSE teams will follow the sport more than ever with an expanded playoff and games vs Troy and Akron off the schedule. The notion that these fans will become irate that their team is losing 2 more games per year vs a very difficult schedule is simply ridiculous.

The fans I do think that leave the P2 are its casual fans, fans of other teams who would normally tune in when their team isnt playing. I think the P2 is making a grave mistake if they exclude the teams that they probably will. People like us watch college football because we have a team in it. Take out Pitt, NC State, Cincinnati, Utah, etc and you take away too many fans

I disagree for the reasons explained above.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

We're in 2022. Have they been happy the last 5 years?

The fact that you refuse to answer such a simple question tells everyone here everything they need to know about your argument.

My god man, even SMF can figure it out!

 

[PittPharm2002]

The fact that you refuse to answer such a simple question tells everyone here everything they need to know about your argument.

My god man, even SMF can figure it out!

He can’t
Because logic hurts his argument

 

[NCPitt]

The fact that you refuse to answer such a simple question tells everyone here everything they need to know about your argument.

My god man, even SMF can figure it out!

The answer is that I have clue what fans thought =/- 20 years ago?

I've you the same question twice and you have yet to answer. That tells me all I need to know.

 

[NCPitt]

He can’t
Because logic hurts his argument

You are the last poster who should reference logic.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The answer is that I have clue what fans thought =/- 20 years ago?

I've you the same question twice and you have yet to answer. That tells me all I need to know.

Well you obviously don't, because your argument is that Stiller fans would have been happier with 2004 than 2005. Or apparently that Penguins fans would have been happier with the 92-93 season when the Pens ended up with 119 points than the 90-91 season when they ended up with 88 points or the 91-92 season when they ended up with 87 points.

And if you really think that you are about as smart as a box of rocks.

 

[NCPitt]

Well you obviously don't, because your argument is that Stiller fans would have been happier with 2004 than 2005. Or apparently that Penguins fans would have been happier with the 92-93 season when the Pens ended up with 119 points than the 90-91 season when they ended up with 88 points or the 91-92 season when they ended up with 87 points.

And if you really think that you are about as smart as a box of rocks.

You can't answer the question because it defies your narrative.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You can't answer the question because it defies your narrative.

Which question do you want answered? Because unlike you, I have no problem answering your questions. You just usually don't like the facts.

 

[NCPitt]

Which question do you want answered? Because unlike you, I have no problem answering your questions. You just usually don't like the facts.

Read the thread. I'm not wasting my time. I already know you won't answer honestly.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Read the thread. I'm not wasting my time. I already know you won't answer honestly.

Hypothetical question for you. Lets say Bama threepeats, going 13-3 (winning the 4 game tournament) every year vs all P2 competition. What percentage of their fanbase do they lose from the debacle of winning natty's in seasons they lose several games vs extremely tough schedules?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Read the thread. I'm not wasting my time. I already know you won't answer honestly.

I'm just not sure what you think I haven't answered. I mean the last thing you asked was if Stiller fans have been happy with the last five years. And the answer is obviously no.

And that answer obviously doesn't have anything to do with the point we were discussing, which is that you think that college football fans won't be able to handle their team losing multiple games even if they end up winning the championship.

Stiller fans aren't mad about the last five years because of how many games they lost in the regular seasons. They are mad because of their lack of success in the post season. Which is why they were obviously happier after 2005 than 2004. And why Penguins fans were obviously happier after 90-91 and 91-92 than 92-93. And why an Alabama fan would be completely fine with going 9-3 in the regular season and then winning the national championship and would obviously like that a lot better than going 12-0 in the regular season and then losing in the playoff.

At this point I have to wonder if you are just trolling, because you can't really be this dumb, can you?

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

Moving the goalposts, I see. I never said "more than 1 loss. I said 4 loss seasons. "4" and season"s".

You want proof. Just look at Pittsburgh. Are the Steeler and Pen fans happy the few seasons. These are teams that have established a threshold for success among their fans. They've made the playoffs and failed to advance regularly. The fans want the teams blown up and the coaches replaced.

You’re on the right track with your opinion … but not wise to compare it to the pro sports. Those sports have parity built in their business models to keep as many teams involved to the end. As such they reward the teams that fail with the first choice of the best new players. Their fans have grown accustomed to seeing .750 teams or worse win their titles

College football has a totally different model. It’s kill or be killed. Not just once but over and over and over too. The mere fact that these two mega conferences are being allowed to destroy other conferences to try to monopolize the sport, is even being allowed, explains the mindset of college football.

It’s also a sport that allows teams to totally control basically as much as 25-30% of its schedule, making it as easy or as difficult as it wants.

All with the idea in mind that the top teams, the champions, are not just barely better than the ones that finish below them, but totally and utterly dominant. This is the sport that it’s fans are uniquely used to (and “fans” isn’t even strong enough, it’s too casual… we’re really talking about the ultra boosters…the real money and power behind the elite programs). These are the people who bankroll these things, inventing fake companies to pay these crazy NIL deals and the like.

These are the Type A sorts who are used to not just winning, but tromping the faces in of everyone they face. These are the ones that will find it a little tough to adjust to the “pro sports” parity shift that this is coming to.

I don’t necessity think that Alabama boosters will be too bothered to win titles at 14-2 or maybe even 13-3…. And winning most games but pedestrian 24-21 rather than mostly 77-7…as long as they continue to win every year. But 4 losses or maybe more? My opinion is that it will be a tougher adjustment than some here obviously think. And if they start falling off and, gasp, not automatically winning it all, every year? Maybe only winning it every 5 years or so? Not always getting in the championship game? An even tougher adjustment. To what end? Probably none, they will likely just triple down on legal and illegal spending to try to get back there, but definitely some of the same luster will not be there.

 

[PittPharm2002]

You can't answer the question because it defies your narrative.

Irony alert

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I'm just not sure what you think I haven't answered. I mean the last thing you asked was if Stiller fans have been happy with the last five years. And the answer is obviously no.

And that answer obviously doesn't have anything to do with the point we were discussing, which is that you think that college football fans won't be able to handle their team losing multiple games even if they end up winning the championship.

Stiller fans aren't mad about the last five years because of how many games they lost in the regular seasons. They are mad because of their lack of success in the post season. Which is why they were obviously happier after 2005 than 2004. And why Penguins fans were obviously happier after 90-91 and 91-92 than 92-93. And why an Alabama fan would be completely fine with going 9-3 in the regular season and then winning the national championship and would obviously like that a lot better than going 12-0 in the regular season and then losing in the playoff.

At this point I have to wonder if you are just trolling, because you can't really be this dumb, can you?

BING-OH!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Pens have been really pretty successful over the past 5 seasons. Really successful. In a tough division, they have still had 100 points every year, save for the eff up pandemic year. It is the 1st rd exits that have fans upset.

People forget in 1992, the year the Pens won their 2nd cup, they finished 4th in the Patrick Division. Because they had to play the 1 seed in the whole shooting match in the Caps in rd 1, and the 2 seed in the 2nd rd. They won the Cup. No one remembers or cares about finishing 4th in the division. Just like no Steelers fan would take 15-1 2004 over the 6th seed, wild card and eventual Super Bowl champion 2005 team. The Pirates won 98 games in 2015. That was the 2nd best record in baseball. In fact, it is like their 3rd best overall record in their 120 year history. Yes, fans would rather have that over what they have now, but I think any fan would choose a 88 win season and a WS appearance over 98 wins and WC playoff loss.

 

[NCPitt]

Hypothetical question for you. Lets say Bama threepeats, going 13-3 (winning the 4 game tournament) every year vs all P2 competition. What percentage of their fanbase do they lose from the debacle of winning natty's in seasons they lose several games vs extremely tough schedules?

I already said Alabama would be the exception.

Pay attention.

 

[NCPitt]

I'm just not sure what you think I haven't answered. I mean the last thing you asked was if Stiller fans have been happy with the last five years. And the answer is obviously no.

And that answer obviously doesn't have anything to do with the point we were discussing, which is that you think that college football fans won't be able to handle their team losing multiple games even if they end up winning the championship.

Stiller fans aren't mad about the last five years because of how many games they lost in the regular seasons. They are mad because of their lack of success in the post season. Which is why they were obviously happier after 2005 than 2004. And why Penguins fans were obviously happier after 90-91 and 91-92 than 92-93. And why an Alabama fan would be completely fine with going 9-3 in the regular season and then winning the national championship and would obviously like that a lot better than going 12-0 in the regular season and then losing in the playoff.

At this point I have to wonder if you are just trolling, because you can't really be this dumb, can you?

LOL.

Your point has been that fans would be happy with 4 losses as long as they knew they had a shot at winning a championship. That is exactly the scenario (excepting the number of losses) with the Steelers. They make the playoffs and "have a chance to win the championship". Then they lose their first game.

And the fans aren't happy per your admission. Exactly what I said.

 

[NCPitt]

You’re on the right track with your opinion … but not wise to compare it to the pro sports. Those sports have parity built in their business models to keep as many teams involved to the end. As such they reward the teams that fail with the first choice of the best new players. Their fans have grown accustomed to seeing .750 teams or worse win their titles

College football has a totally different model. It’s kill or be killed. Not just once but over and over and over too. The mere fact that these two mega conferences are being allowed to destroy other conferences to try to monopolize the sport, is even being allowed, explains the mindset of college football.

It’s also a sport that allows teams to totally control basically as much as 25-30% of its schedule, making it as easy or as difficult as it wants.

All with the idea in mind that the top teams, the champions, are not just barely better than the ones that finish below them, but totally and utterly dominant. This is the sport that it’s fans are uniquely used to (and “fans” isn’t even strong enough, it’s too casual… we’re really talking about the ultra boosters…the real money and power behind the elite programs). These are the people who bankroll these things, inventing fake companies to pay these crazy NIL deals and the like.

These are the Type A sorts who are used to not just winning, but tromping the faces in of everyone they face. These are the ones that will find it a little tough to adjust to the “pro sports” parity shift that this is coming to.

I don’t necessity think that Alabama boosters will be too bothered to win titles at 14-2 or maybe even 13-3…. And winning most games but pedestrian 24-21 rather than mostly 77-7…as long as they continue to win every year. But 4 losses or maybe more? My opinion is that it will be a tougher adjustment than some here obviously think. And if they start falling off and, gasp, not automatically winning it all, every year? Maybe only winning it every 5 years or so? Not always getting in the championship game? An even tougher adjustment. To what end? Probably none, they will likely just triple down on legal and illegal spending to try to get back there, but definitely some of the same luster will not be there.

There is nothing else to compare it to at this point.

Just to clarify, I have always excluded Alabama (and only Alabama) from this hypothetical. They are the only team that has an annual chance to win a championship with 3 losses because they have the GOAT of college coaching. I may not have stated that in this thread but I have said it in other threads on this topic.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

There is nothing else to compare it to at this point.

Just to clarify, I have always excluded Alabama (and only Alabama) from this hypothetical. They are the only team that has an annual chance to win a championship with 3 losses because they have the GOAT of college coaching. I may not have stated that in this thread but I have said it in other threads on this topic.

Kind of weird that Nebraska is still drawing 90k every week when they haven't won more than 5 games in six years or been a national player in over 20.

It's almost as if these college football fans in the middle of nowhere - which is the case for just about every blue blood and second-tier program - have nothing better to do and will live and die by their team no matter what. Especially when there are 16 playoff spots available instead of four. Wanna do Texas next? Florida? Tennessee? A&M? LSU? Michigan? You tell me who you want to do next, and we'll do it.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I already said Alabama would be the exception.

Pay attention.

OK. What percentage of the Georgia fanbase would abandon the Bulldogs if they went 9-3 3 years in a row and lost in the semis or NC every year? 20%?

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

OK. What percentage of the Georgia fanbase would abandon the Bulldogs if they went 9-3 3 years in a row and lost in the semis or NC every year? 20%?

Like 8 angry old dudes who sit on their porch shirtless all day and just bitch at everyone who walks by. So divide 8 by 4 million and you'll have your answer.

 

[pittdan77]

Kind of weird that Nebraska is still drawing 90k every week when they haven't won more than 5 games in six years or been a national player in over 20.

It's more complex than the number of people who show up. In 2017, only three ACC programs saw year-over-year attendance remain steady or grow. BC, VaTech, and Wake Forest. Clemson's attendance actually dropped and they won the NC.

Fans were getting restless with Franklin and he got a huge raise and some contract security. A big booster came in and dumped money all over Mel Tucker based on part of a season. But then OU couldn't muster enough support to keep Lincoln Riley because there was actually talk of him being on the hot seat before last season amongst their fan base. PSU actually tried to get Paterno to quit (or fire him depending on who you believe) and he told them no because he knew he had the support of the big boosters. College football is very different.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

It's more complex than the number of people who show up. In 2017, only three ACC programs saw year-over-year attendance remain steady or grow. BC, VaTech, and Wake Forest. Clemson's attendance actually dropped and they won the NC.

Fans were getting restless with Franklin and he got a huge raise and some contract security. A big booster came in and dumped money all over Mel Tucker based on part of a season. But then OU couldn't muster enough support to keep Lincoln Riley because there was actually talk of him being on the hot seat before last season amongst their fan base. PSU actually tried to get Paterno to quit (or fire him depending on who you believe) and he told them no because he knew he had the support of the big boosters. College football is very different.

I don't really get how Clemson's attendance dropping in a national championship year factors into this. Attendance is down across the board in almost everything, yes. But that doesn't prove that losing a few more games causes people to stop being fans.

As for Penn State, losing five games under the current system makes you pretty irrelevant. But we're talking about teams losing 3 or 4 games under a super league format with 16 playoff spots. You wouldn't be irrelevant at 8-4; you'd be in the hunt.

 

[NCPitt]

Kind of weird that Nebraska is still drawing 90k every week when they haven't won more than 5 games in six years or been a national player in over 20.

It's almost as if these college football fans in the middle of nowhere - which is the case for just about every blue blood and second-tier program - have nothing better to do and will live and die by their team no matter what. Especially when there are 16 playoff spots available instead of four. Wanna do Texas next? Florida? Tennessee? A&M? LSU? Michigan? You tell me who you want to do next, and we'll do it.

I guess you think that Nebraska fans are now happy with their team results. Their coaching turnover and the pressure exerted by fans to improve would belie that belief.

Besides, what does that have to do with this discussion? It isn't even in the ballpark of the parameters of the topic.

 

[NCPitt]

OK. What percentage of the Georgia fanbase would abandon the Bulldogs if they went 9-3 3 years in a row and lost in the semis or NC every year? 20%?

80% would be unhappy. Where did I say that UGA fans would abandon them?

Besides, your scenario would never happen. If UGA loses 3 games, they aren't getting to the semis.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I guess you think that Nebraska fans are now happy with their team results. Their coaching turnover and the pressure exerted by fans to improve would belie that belief.

Besides, what does that have to do with this discussion? It isn't even in the ballpark of the parameters of the topic.

You said fans will stop following their team if they start losing more games than they're used to. Nobody in college football had a better overall record than Nebraska from 1962 - 2003. And the fans didn't stop following once that reign ended. No idea how that wouldn't be pertinent to this discussion.

 

[NCPitt]

I don't really get how Clemson's attendance dropping in a national championship year factors into this. Attendance is down across the board in almost everything, yes. But that doesn't prove that losing a few more games causes people to stop being fans.

As for Penn State, losing five games under the current system makes you pretty irrelevant. But we're talking about teams losing 3 or 4 games under a super league format with 16 playoff spots. You wouldn't be irrelevant at 8-4; you'd be in the hunt.

4-loss teams aren't getting in the playoffs and they are never "in the hunt".

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

4-loss teams aren't getting in the playoffs.

Lol. In a super league where 40ish teams all play each other exclusively and beat up on each other and there are 16 playoff spots? Yes, they absolutely will. And depending on how the divisions are structure (there will be automatic tie-ins), 5-loss teams will get in on rare occasion.

 

[NCPitt]

You said fans will stop following their team if they start losing more games than they're used to. Nobody in college football had a better overall record than Nebraska from 1962 - 2003. And the fans didn't stop following once that reign ended. No idea how that wouldn't be pertinent to this discussion.

I also said there were exceptions. I might even have listed UGA among them. I'm not about to look it up.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

My head hurts.

 

[NCPitt]

Lol. In a super league where 40ish teams all play each other exclusively and beat up on each other and there are 16 playoff spots? Yes, they absolutely will. And depending on how the divisions are structure (there will be automatic tie-ins), 5-loss teams will get in on rare occasion.

Not going to happen.