Correct. They have a 10x the support of Pitt. That's the reason for their success.
The Florida myth
- Thread starter jerot
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Correct. They have a 10x the support of Pitt. That's the reason for their success.
I'm the only one in this thread who is, apparently.
Me: We need consistency and a coach who can win.
You: Let's fire Narduzzi and bring in Nick Saban to get better recruits!
HailtoPitt - do you really believe the the coaches at PITT and PSU put the same amount of effort and attention to detail in recruiting?
Literally nobody has said this or argued for anything close to this.
There isn't a single person alive who doesn't think what a football program needs is a coach who can win. That's like saying what a person needs is oxygen.
You keep repeating your oxygen comment as if it's some great insight that is being argued against. Instead we are debating HOW you get to be a coach who can win, and to the extent that we are currently doing that to the best of our program's ability.
Then how come we haven't seen the bump in recruiting some of these programs have?
Minnesota went from historical recruiting averages in the .81ish to .83ish average recruit ranking before Fleck. His first full class was over .86. That's a massive jump in average recruit quality.
Where is our jump in average recruit ranking?
VT currently has an average recruit ranking of .89+. A low 4* average per recruit. And they have 8 players committed, so it's not like the class is due to just having a couple kids.
How has Fuente, who isn't regarded as a particularly elite recruiter, been able to turn the recruiting corner in year 3? They haven't won anything. And they are apparently our competition. They are at the level we are according to you.
If comparing us to VT is realistic, why is the difference in recruiting momentum and quality so stark? When Narudzzi has been at Pitt longer than Fuente has at VT?
I don't know, but I do know that Narduzzi recruits at about the same level as Chryst, Graham and Wannstedt. Narduzzi came in as a new coach and was hitting all the media outlets, lighting it up on Twitter, talking a big game, etc and the results have been the same as if he just quietly recruits. Maybe Pitt could hire a better recruiter, but it would only matter if he is a good coach.
Maybe. And I think he was a huge piece of money crap. But, he knew how to build a successful football program and how to win lots of games.
Do you believe PSU is outworking Pitt or they simply have a better product and brand that is easier to sell?
I've got some bad news for you, if we don't out recruit all but maybe one of our Coastal opponents, we aren't ever winning 11+ games. Ever.
I, literally, have never said anything about firing Narduzzi. Your argument has no merit or basis in reality so you are creating a fictitious position and straw man to attempt cover for your out of the sky opinion.
Outworking, more talented, AND a better brand. However, the 1st 2 are things we can absolutely control.
Every school is different. How did Wannstedt get better recruits when he came in? He sold them a vision, just like Fleck. After a few years, unless you WIN, all the vision in the world isn't going to help you.
Illinois is selling a vision with a former super bowl coach (Lovie Smith). Check on both situation in a couple of years when they aren't winning.
We have been in competition for players with VT. Most players we have recruited in the last few years have had VT offers. VT has won a high percentage of the recruits.
You're either a troll or an unrealistic fan that needs to get a life.
Now, I want you to answer:
1. What is the solution for Pitt? Fire Narduzzi? Hire someone else on the staff?
2. What is your point of continuing this thread to basically say that Pitt's recruiting sucks and there's no hope?
3. What is your realistic vision for Pitt football? ACC title contender every year? National Championship?
4. If Pitt is underachieving in recruiting, where should they be relative to recruiting rankings?
As Ben Franklin once said; "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do"
pittdan77
Athletic Director
"11-14" is your number for when recruiting will turn the corner with better prospects. Again, though, it doesn't work that way.
How can you write so much without saying anything? I don't understand.
"After a few years, unless you WIN, all the vision in the world isn't going to help you."
Duh. No idea why you guys keep writing this, as if it has anything to do with anything. Yes, programs need to win. Congrats on being the first to come up with that dynamite observation. What the rest of us are discussing are the inputs it takes to get the output of winning. In particular, the recruiting input, and whether we getting as much out of it as we should.
"Illinois is selling a vision with a former super bowl coach (Lovie Smith). Check on both situation in a couple of years when they aren't winning."
No, Illinois went out and hired an elite recruiter. A high school legend from the Missouri era. That's it. That's how simple it can be when you don't tie one arm behind your back. Lovie Smith said, "I need more recruiting talent on this staff. Here is an area I think we can get into. I'm going to hire the best recruiter for the 10th coach I can from that area." While I and others BEG for us to do that, it's apparently impossible at Pitt until we have a bunch of 10 win seasons in a row.
And yes, if Lovie Smith doesn't win, he will be fired. Once again, elite observation.
"We have been in competition for players with VT. Most players we have recruited in the last few years have had VT offers. VT has won a high percentage of the recruits."
If VT has won a high % of the recruits, we aren't really in competition with them for those recruits, are we?
This is kind of the side step you guys love to do. The Pennsylvania Polka, where you just dance around the question. I'm asking WHY has VT done it. You are saying VT is our competition. That's our level. So WHY are they beating us for a "high percentage of the recruits." WHY has their recruiting taken off in year 3, when ours is arguably bottoming out in year 4? The are apparently our competition level, so the "Bama, ND, Penn State, Ohio State" straw man you guys love to pull out when it comes to recruiting, has to stay in the barn at least as it relates to VT. There has to be some other answer.
I knew you wouldn't answer any of my questions... You are a troll. I'm not going to waste my time on a poster who constantly criticizes and yet doesn't have any answers.
Hiring an aggressive recruiter especially for the WPIAL has already been suggested. Try again...
I'll put your troll ass on ignore now...
Yes here I am reading about it but I am not going to make a big deal about worrying what a bunch of 17-18 years old's think in in the month of June.
I don't know where this myth started that kids will flock to your school after you have a big year or two. They will do that *if you are a good recruiter.* Look at Oklahoma State's recruiting rankings. Can someone please let me know when they are gonna start getting better recruits? Gundy has won big bowls. He has won his conference. They are pretty consistently ranked. Yet...still usually have a recruiting class ranked in the 30s.
No, it isn't. If Pitt can start winning 9 or 10 games per year, then they will see better recruits. With better recruits, a good coach will be able to win more than 10 games per year.
Last 3 years of recruiting averages. Pitt #34, VTech #33.
Are you concerned about VTech's recruiting?
Miami is another story when it comes to recruiting but other than them HCPN is recruiting at a level to compete in the Coastal.
Are you concerned about VTech's recruiting?
Miami is another story when it comes to recruiting but other than them HCPN is recruiting at a level to compete in the Coastal.
It's the dream of every fan base that has aspirations of something more. You can't find another message board where the fans don't talk about it.
"First we build depth."
Then we have a bunch of winning seasons with these middle of the road players.
And then the big time players get excited and jump on board.
And yet, it never happens for any of them. They are the equivalent of those people that try every single new age diet there is to lose the weight. Because none of them actually want to acknowledge the only path to weight loss, because they don't feel as if they can do that.
1. You're counting VT's transition class. Would be better to count VT's first two full classes vs. our classes during that time.
2. VT currently has 8 players committed, with three being 4* players and another just messing the 4* cut, for an average overall recruit ranking of .8944.
I'll go ahead and say I'm concerned about VT's recruiting. Not for their sake, but for ours. They are trending in a direction that we better come close to keeping up with.
Good thing it's June and not February...
Vtech has had more recent success and stability than Pitt. Their coaching change was pretty seamless. Vtech has had be access to local talent. One would expect Vtech to out recruit Pitt.
Vtech has had more recent success and stability than Pitt. Their coaching change was pretty seamless. Vtech has had be access to local talent. One would expect Vtech to out recruit Pitt.
You're right. There's no reason for us not to expect a run on recruits that put us anywhere close to that .88 to 89 average recruit ranking. It's only June, all past and current indications point to it happening.
And that's fine. VT is not at our level then, they are above us. But then posters not to stopping grouping us with them as the recruiting competition.
They are either a level above us as a program or they aren't. It can't be both.
If you look at the offer sheets for some of these OKST players, it tells a different story...
What is a successful recruiter? The coach who brings in the most 4 star players or it it the coach who recruits players that fit their system, coaching them and winning with them? Is it the opinion of an analyst who never coached that counts?
I have always maintained that P5 offers is the best measuring stick for how good a kid can become.
Our recent recruit does not have a strong offer sheet, however he could turn out to be the next James Conner. We'll know in a few years...
Let's talk in December...
pittdan77
Athletic Director
He has one unranked recruit in June of his third full recruiting season and is dead last in ACC recruiting. There is zero expectation anywhere that Pitt will compete for the Coastal any time soon. Vegas has Pitt at five wins so right now, per the "experts", Pitt is going to struggle to make a bowl.
And the Polka dance keeps going.
Why is "fits system" mutually exclusive from elite talent? Is there a system out there that can only be executed by middle of the road 3* players? Of course not.
EVERY coach recruits to their system. The most successful ones are the ones that land the elite players that fit their system.
Why is P5 offers the best measuring stick? We have a wealth of information out there now that tells us star ranking is incredibly accurate. Why do we need to rely on this other self-reporting system for accuracy? It's just a slight of hand trick to hide the lack of success within the accurate recruiting model we do use.
But then even that isn't enough. "I have always maintained P5 offers are the best measuring stick. But this guy that only has offers from the Ivy League, I'm not going to say that's worrisome. He might turn out to be a great player."
This is wanting it every single way possible. The star ranking doesn't matter until of course it does matter (when we land a 4*). The offer list ranking matters until of course it doesn't matter (when we land a recruit with a joke of an offer list) and then we'll table that discussion until later.
Obviously a lot can change. I saw last year as a bottoming out for Pitt. To Too much youth, too much schedule. Pitt should be much improved this year but the final results might not indicate how much they improved due to the schedule.
If you go by recruiting profiles and who else offered each player- the current roster is much more talented than the one Chryst left.
Personally, I could care less who verbally commits in June. Just like last year, none of it matters until they sign. WI has already "lost" three 4* verbal commitments.
If you go by recruiting profiles and who else offered each player- the current roster is much more talented than the one Chryst left.
Personally, I could care less who verbally commits in June. Just like last year, none of it matters until they sign. WI has already "lost" three 4* verbal commitments.
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All you have to do is look at their competition. OkSt plays 2 games against teams with more talent. They usually lose both of those games. Some years they win 1 of them (against UT, who has obviously had coaching issues) and rarely ever beat OU. What separates OkSt is they rarely lose more than 1 other game against equal or lesser competition.
Unfortunately for Pitt, we have at least 4 of those games on the schedule every year and generally have a 5th OOC or ACC crossover and would have a 6th if we played the ACC CG. So, for Pitt, if we could even get to .500 in those minimum 4 games against more talented teams and only lose 1 game vs. equal or less competition, our ceiling is 9 wins and if we have a 5th game against more talented opponents the ceiling is probably more like 8 wins. That is all said WITH the caveat that our coaching is as good or better than everyone we face, which is pretty darn unlikely.
Depends on how you define the phrase outworking. Outworking if you are talking about pure energy expended or time put in OK then you are right Pitt can control that. Outworking if you are talking about going all out for recruits, no Pitt cannot compete right now, as PSU has more money to reach further.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
To have such problems. Pitt fans were excited at one point last year because we had four kids who committed that were almost 4-stars.
In one word, money. PSU has higher budgets for coaches, recruiting, facilities, the list goes on and on of how much more money they have to put into their program to lure better players.
It would be foolish to dismiss those advantages they have. While Pitt does have its points to sell to recruits, PSU has that many more. Let's also call a spade a spade. Pitt suspended its best player last year for 3 games for weed. PSU covered up child rape for years.
While we (and any normal adult) find what PSU did repulsive, a recruit (an immature 18yo) probably looks at that situation and says "wow PSU cares and wants to win, and won't throw me under the bus, Pitt will if I screw up."
You know....Bribes, guns, and kidnappings of family members until they sign on the bottom line....
It's easy....
Steel,
Money is always the name of the game. Always. I already answered. Facilities are better with money. Better coaching/better recruiters bought with money, $100 handshakes all come with more money. Hudl just allows you to take notice of more players, it doesn't give you more face time with them to make your pitch. More money allows more face time with prospects at more locations.
I also noticed you ignored my comment that out best defensive player was suspended 3 games for weed last year. If you don't think prospects notice that and other teams are not alluding to that, then I don't know what to say. At most schools that would have been community service and a few extra laps at practice. If it was a recurring issue half fame suspension and that is for rank and file players. At Pitt the best defensive player sits 3 games 2 of which are top opponents with one of them being a rival. No other school does that.
Money is always the name of the game. Always. I already answered. Facilities are better with money. Better coaching/better recruiters bought with money, $100 handshakes all come with more money. Hudl just allows you to take notice of more players, it doesn't give you more face time with them to make your pitch. More money allows more face time with prospects at more locations.
I also noticed you ignored my comment that out best defensive player was suspended 3 games for weed last year. If you don't think prospects notice that and other teams are not alluding to that, then I don't know what to say. At most schools that would have been community service and a few extra laps at practice. If it was a recurring issue half fame suspension and that is for rank and file players. At Pitt the best defensive player sits 3 games 2 of which are top opponents with one of them being a rival. No other school does that.
I'm talking about actual recruiting budgets.
In this day and age of HUDL, you aren't spending tons of $ trying physically see kids. You just aren't. You make your rounds just like every other school during bowl season, after signing day, and after spring ball.
This isn't 1994 when you see coaches at HS practices and games. It just isn't.
You want to know why PSU is thriving under Franklin? They grind in recruiting. They COMPLETELY outwork 95% of the schools they go against. They get in on kids EARLY. Once they offer a kid, they're going to make weekly contact. They're going to make sure the kid is exposed to damn near every coach on the staff. They send out hand written letters - often. When they tell you they're visiting, they visit. There is no negative recruiting. By doing this, they get kids to visit on their own dime and do it often.
None of this has anything to do with big $$$.
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