The problem with the Pirates
- Thread starter mike 301
- Start date
Yeah . The org. thinking is as long is they get the quota of a profit .
That is all that matters .
Fireworks . Bobble heads . Star wars night .
Even trying to sign some decent pitching or even making a respectable offer for some decent pitching . At least show an offer to justify making an effort .
Yeah . I think it's the rotation the most .
I like to believe the (young) rest of the lineup have a decent upside .
Bell . Dickerson . Meadows . Hell even the young catcher shows bright spots that can at least keep us interested in the next couple years ..
He's turning into the Spanish translation of "Jonathan Niese".
On another note, what is Eugenio Suarez' career batting average against the Pirates? Something like .800? Pirate pitching somehow manages to turn that guy into Roy Hobbs.
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In 20+ out of 26 seasons the Pirates have had a losing record and some still defend them. It is Paternoesque in the sense that some people will refuse to ever admit they’re doing something wrong.
Detroit won in 1984
Minnesota won in 1987 and 1991
San Diego and Montreal/Washington have never won. Nor has Tampa.
No. Not every year. Sometimes you, especially a market like Pittsburgh in the MLB, has to rebuild. When you rebuild, long term success is more important. The problem is, the Pirates havent done much to rebuild or rebuild from. They have become one of these franchises that lamely think they can extend a contention window......instead of being honest like the Astros or Cubs did and accept sucking, making good draft choices and prospect trades and then reaping the rewards. The Penguins on a local level of achieving success at the highest level, then totally burning it down to the ground, admittedly getting lucky with timing and a ping pong ball, but again achieving the highest level. And in a few years, they will have to rebuild again. Cycle of sports franchise life.
If you look at it, the Pirates haven't even won a playoff series since 1979, let alone a championship.
Agree and I will add one other thing... when that window comes, you have to be willing to go for it. The Pirates are not willing to go outside their comfort zone when the time comes where they actually have a chance to win a championship. Sure they have added some pieces like Happ and got lucky that he turned it around here but they consistently fall short of addressing key shortfalls when they are actually good. Win 95 games, Burnett retires they replace with terrible Vogelsong, they keep Locke in rotation, etc....
So while I don't expect the Pirates to win every year, I do think it is fair to expect them to go for it when those times come where they are competitive.
Thanks for the corrections. I didn't exhaustively research it, just went from obviously failing memory.
The overriding point remains however, historically, the Pirates have won championships, just not recently. Other teams have less, despite spending a lot of $, some have none.
But wouldn't you feel like they tried if they $PENT MORE and just didn't win? I just totally gave up on baseball after the '92 season, first off I realized I hate the sport-it puts me to sleep, second I realized I was a Pirates fan and not a baseball fan, third, when the Pirates let the whole team walk I felt like they weren't really trying. If they win 85 games this year, in my mind I wouldn't think, "Hey Nutting is right, they did well without spending", I'll think that SUCKS, if they had $PENT BIG the year after winning 98 games, maybe they'd win 100 or a title.
Even the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, and Cardinals to a lesser extent, with seemingly unlimited money and owners who aren't shy about spending don't win championships every year, or make the playoffs every year.
The Pirates' recent publicly stated game plan was to follow the Cleveland model. Draft a bunch of young talent, develop it and have it mature all at once and compete while it's still cheap.
They almost made it happen one time, and won 98 games, but had the misfortune of the Cardinals peaking at the same time in the same division. That put them in a one and done wildcard playoff and got blanked by the best pitcher in the league and tossed out.
Unfortunately, their plan to stockpile top notch pitching prospects, keep some and leverage the others for position players fizzled in a pile of sore arms, surgeries, head cases, and just plain old failures. Their drafting, from the self proclaimed best front office in baseball, has been terrible. They took a chance on Pedro, whom everyone thought was "can't miss", and in typical Pedro fashion, he missed.
Cole is only now showing #1 starter capability. He would have NEVER blossomed here because he hated being here. They did a deal with Polanco, who is now racing to the bottom at the plate and in the field, blocking Meadows in the process. Meadows' development has been slowed by injuries as well.
The position players on the current team seem solid, other than Polanco. It is the pitching that has fizzled. The rotation stinks, and the bullpen is inconsistent.
Even the bench, which was supposed to be great is meh. So it's the same old song.
Comparing the Pirates to the Penguins and Steelers is not fair. Those successful franchises are in salary cap leagues. That changes everything. Clayton Kershaw makes $35 million! Trout is just behind him. No small market team can compete with that, especially one with a cheap owner like Nutting.
Fans can't force Nutting to spend and they can't force him to sell. Those are proven facts.
So, if you like professional baseball, and you realize that the Pirates in Pittsburgh are important to make Pittsburgh a big time city, you're kind of stuck.
I get the boycott/ignore crowd. I don't go to games myself, but I do watch them on TV. I enjoy baseball season and always hope, mostly beyond hope, that the local team can hang in.
I have no illusions about what MLB is. It is a money league, and the big money teams have a huge advantage. I would argue that Pittsburgh fans should be more upset about the structure of MLB and the imbalances in competitiveness. There are a half a dozen teams who are the Globetrotters, and the other 24 are mostly the Washington Generals. Once in a great while fate and luck collide and one of the 24 pulls off a miracle when all the stars align.
Hasn't happened for the Pirates, probably won't under Nutting, but they are still in Pittsburgh, and PNC is a great park, and if you like baseball some pretty good teams with big time stars come to town if that's what floats your boat.
Those are your choices, bad as they are. As I've said again and again, Nutting isn't going anywhere and can't be forced to sell. The league actually thinks pretty highly of him, and there are actually WORSE owners out there. Unfortunately it is what it is here.
If you’re starting the doom and gloom “I told you so” posts it must mean the Pirates are about to go on a tear.
The Pirates AAA affiliate has a bigger media market than Kansas City and St. Louis has a media market that is pretty equal to the Pirates. Those two clubs alone account for six series appearances since the turn of the century. The "no small market can compete" argument is tired and false. You can add two more if you add clubs in the +500k additional TV's with Cleveland and Colorado. The only thing true about that statement is that Nutting can't be forced to spend or sell.
Rebuild? The Pirates slammed the window shut on themselves.
The Cardinals are a good example of how market size and actual revenue can be very different. St. Louis is one of the smaller markets in MLB, even below Tampa and Minneapolis. But when you look at revenue, they are easily in the top 10. The Cardinals are a brand that stretches way outside of St. Louis. Poor example.
It's only a poor example if you choose to ignore that St. Louis may have just done a better job selling their brand and that winning might have helped. And a TV market is still a TV market so maybe it's similar to how the Steelers stretched their brand way outside of Pittsburgh. Nobody in Pittsburgh cared about hockey before the 90's. Now it's the hottest market in the NHL. Guess what? Things can change if you try.
The small market argument is just an old, over used excuse for the Pirates.
You clearly don't understand what the Cardinals have done, and why it is impossible for the Pirates do have ever done anything similar. The Cardinals have large expanses of territory with little or no competition in that they can expand their reach into. The Pirates have no such thing. The Pirates are surrounded by the Phillies, Orioles, Nationals. Indians, Reds and even the Blue Jays. The only place that there is for the Pirates to expand their market into is West Virginia. And they are already there. And even in parts of West Virginia there is competition, with Cleveland and Cincinnati in the western part of the state and Baltimore and Washington in the eastern part.
MLB considers the Pirates market to include all but the southeastern part PA, all of West Virginia, a slice of Ohio along the PA border and a stretch out toward Columbus, a small part of western Maryland, and the very western corner of New York. The Cardinals market includes all of Kansas except around Kansas City, all of Arkansas, all of Oklahoma, all of Iowa, all of Illinois except for the area in and around Chicago, the western part of Kentucky, the western part of Tennessee and the northwest portion of Mississippi. Their territory got that large because back in the day they were able to leverage the fact that their games were on one of the most powerful radio stations in the country in a way that was impossible for the Pirates because of all the Pirates relatively close MLB neighbors. Cardinals games are shown on television regularly in places approximately as far from St. Louis as Boston is to Pittsburgh. If you can't understand how that makes the Cardinals an outlier and not something that is possible for the Pirates, or any other team for that matter, to emulate then you are simply delusional.
And yet the Pirates are owned by a billionaire .
Sure . To make money .
But I am sorry we need a passionate billionaire with balls .
I'm going to let you in on a little secret that way too many people don't seem to understand. The reason why billionaires own businesses is to make money.
Pirates dealing Cutch was the right move. I was shocked how horrible he was in the outfield last year and at the plate. I was happybwhen he was traded and his salary and liabilities unloaded. Im prob still in the minority. His WAR is frightening.
Im also happy with where the team is this year and am pulling for them. Nutting’s moves dont look that bad.
Im also happy with where the team is this year and am pulling for them. Nutting’s moves dont look that bad.
I root for the Royals, and they really don't work as a great argument of what the Pirates are doing wrong. Can't argue their WS trophy, but they won using the same blueprint as the Pirates follow. Sure, they added FA payroll in 2015 by signing Alex Rios, who the Pirates had interest for multiple years and couldn't acquire earlier via both trade nor FA attempts, but he ended up a bust and non factor all season. They also signed a familiar name to Pirates fans in Edison Volquez. The other top earners and core of the team were largely homegrown talent; with just 3 of the homegrown guys (Alex Gordon, Eric Homer, and Greg Holland) totaling over 20 percent of the entire team payroll. They added Cueto as a rental at the deadline without parting with a top 50 MLB prospect. Their total payroll jumped during the WS year, but never reached the top half of the league during their best years. By most accounts, their 95 win WS roster was no better than the Pirates 98 win team that season... of course, they also didn't face the hottest pitcher in nearly a century (literally) in a one game playoff or share a freakish division with two other 97+ win teams. 3 years later, the Royals are now among the worst teams in baseball... and were among the worst teams along side the Pirates for many of those notorious years of the losing streak.
Undoubtedly, the goal should be a title and KC did it. However, I wouldn't imply they are an example of what the Pirates management has done wrong as a small market comparison.
Undoubtedly, the goal should be a title and KC did it. However, I wouldn't imply they are an example of what the Pirates management has done wrong as a small market comparison.
How is WAR calculated or determined? It is a garbage stat. How can it be frightening? You are funny, though.
What really, really, really bothers me is that when we were winning 98 games, and the time came for Burnett to retire, Happ left via free agency as did Charlie Morton, if we just resigned Happ and here is what really bothers me, if we traded "untouchables" Tyler Glasnow and Gregory Polanco we could have landed Chris Sale. Would have landed Chris Sale. A staff of Sale, Happ, Cole, Liriano and whoever going into that season would have been formidable. Even if you only make a WC game again, I would take my chances with Sale on the mound.
But no, another example of the Pirates overrating their own talent (to be honest MLB overrated) or another example of the Pirates not being able to develop talent, but blew these two when they were maxed out as assets in value and now we are trying to figure out what to do with both guys.
To people who don't understand the game, sure.
It's certainly not perfect, but what stat is? It's certainly a hell of a lot better than any of the "back of a baseball card" stats from when many of us were kids.
I'd rather read the back of the card . Then I could figure it out myself .
Also more interesting than having some egg head statistitian do the work for me . To me thats part of the fun of baseball .
You're not the first person to call me that ! Lol.
Gotta be a coincidence .
For the record, I have no problem with that. Some people just want to watch a game, they don't care about the stats or anything other than what is going on on the field right now. There's nothing wrong with that. But we also don't have to pretend that people like that have any sort of real insight into what is going on "behind the scenes", as it were. Other people want to try to get a better understanding of why what is happening is happening. The great thing about baseball is that there are lots of different ways to enjoy the game. To each his own.
I prefer Joe the Panther Fan explaining it. Because he apparently understands the game. And I do not.
The idea behind the WAR framework is that we want to know how much better a player is than a player that would typically be available to replace that player. We start by comparing the player to average in a variety of venues, then compare our theoretical replacement player to the average player and add the two results together.
There is no one way to determine WAR. There are hundreds of steps to make this calculation, and dozens of places where reasonable people can disagree on the best way to implement a particular part of the framework. We have taken the utmost care and study at each step in the process, and believe all of our choices are well reasoned and defensible. But WAR is necessarily an approximation and will never be as precise or accurate as one would like.
We present the WAR values with decimal places because this relates the WAR value back to the runs contributed (as one win is about ten runs), but you should not take any full-season difference between two players of less than one to two wins to be definitive (especially when the defensive metrics are included).
There is no one way to determine WAR. There are hundreds of steps to make this calculation, and dozens of places where reasonable people can disagree on the best way to implement a particular part of the framework. We have taken the utmost care and study at each step in the process, and believe all of our choices are well reasoned and defensible. But WAR is necessarily an approximation and will never be as precise or accurate as one would like.
We present the WAR values with decimal places because this relates the WAR value back to the runs contributed (as one win is about ten runs), but you should not take any full-season difference between two players of less than one to two wins to be definitive (especially when the defensive metrics are included).
Here you go. It's a simplified explanation for you.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml
And for the record, if you think that "back of the card" stats tell you more than a catch all stat like WAR does then you certainly don't.
