If you can’t explain it without using a link, don’t bother quoting it. It’s a Garbage stat for the so called more intellectual fan, i.e., the kid who used to pee his pants while playing his two innings in right field in little league.
The problem with the Pirates
- Thread starter mike 301
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I opened the link and started to read the explanation. I’m hoping it’s a joke.Here you go. It's a simplified explanation for you.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml
I’ve seen simpler calculations in masters level economics classes.
First off, stop being such a friggin nerd. Secondly, the "back of the baseball card" stats is something people can immediately relate to and compare to not just current peers, but historically. People remember Bonds hitting 70 Home Runs. They remember Gwynn hitting .394 or Brett hitting .390. Gibson's ERA of 1.12. No one remembers or quotes their "WAR".
I am not saying this to denigrate WAR, but I am saying to those elitists who dismiss people who quote "old fashioned" stats. Because those are the stats we all grew up with and can relate to.
There's nothing wrong with quoting "old fashioned" stats. They are a part of the history of the game. But forgive me if I don't think that people who still think about baseball the way that we all thought about baseball in the 70s have any sort of real insight into the game. The fact of the matter is that the teams, the people who get paid money to make real decisions and whose career depends on getting those decisions right, pay almost no attention at all to the stats that we all grew up with. That's just the way that it is. People who say things like "it's a garbage stat for the so called intellectual fan" are people that have their heads buried in the sand. As I said, if you want to think about the game that way that's great, but then don't pretend that you have any sort of real insight, because you don't.
The thing that I think is hilarious is that sports seems to be just about the only facet of society where this clinging onto the past is seen by some to be some sort of badge of honor. When you go to the doctors do you want him or her to treat you like it was 1978, or do you want them to use all the advances in medicine since then to diagnose and treat you? Would you prefer the computer on your desk at work to be just like the one that was (or actually wouldn't have been) on your desk 40 years ago? Do you still watch television on a huge behemoth of a thing with picture tubes like you did 40 years ago? The state of the art progresses in just about every area of society. Sports fans, or at least some of them, want to pretend that what we know about sports is exactly the same today as it was 40 or 50 or 100 years ago.
What does WAR even mean? It's not really a stat, in the sense like an RBI is a stat. It's funny that people think a contrived stat like WAR means more than an RBI number or a pitching Win.
It means wins above replacement, and is basically used to summarize a players entire contribution to his team. No one stat does everything but WAR is probably the best in comparing players. It’s one of the main reasons people are saying Mike Trout is one of the best players in baseball history.
Pitching wins is actually one of the worst indicators of a pitchers real value, Felix Hernández winning the Cy Young in 2010 despite a 13-12 record shows that people finally started to realize this.
It is meaningless in the historical context. Secondly, some of the new stats like OPS is a great metric because it diminishes a slap hitter and serial drinker like Wade Boggs over say a Miguel Cabrera. And I like the WHIP has a great metric basically counting how many base runners pitchers yield. But “ WAR” is still too interpretive. IMO
WAR is not very useful because the way they measure defense is not reliable at all. The baserunning and offensive components are very good but defensive runs saved and ultimate zone rating are junk statistics.
Wow is Polanco in a slump. Btw, he has to be the dumbest baserunner in the majors. Immense talent but low baseball iq. I hope he gets traded as it’s starting to get crowded out there. He routinely runs team out of innings and makes poor baserunning decisions. His defense is above average but now his stick is abysmal.
Old school stats tell a lot...wore than many new school metrics...only thing WAR means to me is that a person with a bad one hurts your team more than an average player. A good war says you have value and help a team win.
LeTang would have a Very bad WAR.
Old school stats tell a lot...wore than many new school metrics...only thing WAR means to me is that a person with a bad one hurts your team more than an average player. A good war says you have value and help a team win.
LeTang would have a Very bad WAR.
Yeah trying to justify that Bob Nutting is serious about wining a World Series is like trying to justify that Steve Smiley Boy P was serious about playing BCS-level FB. Same penny-pinching, it’s all about ME first management style and Yeah you can absolutely HATE the ownership or administration and still love the team and the players trotting out there for games - one isn’t mutually exclusive from the other.
Not sure why CLint keeps trotting him out there. Hes killing them with his bat and continued mental errors.
All the koolaide drinkers have gone quiet........the pitching stings
The Cheapos, uhhhh sorry the Bucco’s were also offered Giancarlo Stanton for a combo of Bell, Glasgow and/or Gregory “Clueless or Injured” Polanco but somehow in their twisted form of logic and prospect protection at all costs somewhow said “No Thanks”. SMH...
Good luck getting anything for Polanco with that contract and his dismal body of work so far. Sadly - he stinks.
Well, the new school WAR stat has Polanco at -0.4
So, appears he’s worse than an average replacement player
So, appears he’s worse than an average replacement player
Glib and naive answer...many billionaires own sports teams and don't do so to turn a profit every year. They realize that the capital appreciation of their asset means when they finally do sell they will make out in spades and they will recoup any annul losses they incurred along the way. Most owners are competitive people who don't buy a sports franchise to turn a profit every year to sustain themselves financially...it's an investment. You know about as little about finance and economics as the other subjects on which you bloviate on and on.
Here's another complaint about "WAR". Okay, "WAR" is indicative of a player's overall value. But from just looking at "WAR" numbers, I don't get a sense of the player. If he is a position player, he is a big power hitter with good average and drives in alot of runs? Or he is a great average guy, with great speed and great defense?? If he is a pitcher, he is a power pitcher who strikes out at least a guy per inning? Or he is Greg Maddux like who pitched to perfection and just painted corners? WAR is representative of a player's overall worth, but it tells you little about the player except he is good.
What an enlightening thread....all the light bulbs about Nutting, who's always been a huge fraud, going on in W.Pa. at the same time....it's blinding me! The Pirates built a strategy around drafting and stockpiling pitchers.....the central part of their purported strategy(use that term lightly) is precisely where they have performed worst.....joke of an organization run by a bum who insults lifelong BB fans with every day of his ownership. Bobbleheads, Kielbasa, fireworks and .500 or worse BB...the real Nutting strategy. And yet this bum has defenders...
Dead on DEL!
Nutsack is a businessman. I wish he would take his money to the ski resorts or any place other than MLB. That said, we have no way to force the fraud to sell. I have been trying to stay away from these threads as I have very little left to say about Nutsack and the Bucs. I felt compelled to mention, that under his ownership, he has turned this lifelong Pirate fan into a disgruntled hater.
Oh. On the contrary . Hit him in the wallet .
Look . I have nothing against the players what so ever .
They get paid to do what they love .
They just happen to be paid by an idiot who has no business being in the business .
Just don't go . Or pay for a ticket and don't spend one other red cent towards the Nut jobs pocketbook .
And the funny thing is that you are so dumb you apparently don't think that the capital appreciation of an asset means making money.
I wonder if there has ever been anyone who thinks that they know so much about sports who is wrong about almost everything all the time like you are? Probably not. But at least for the people who do understand sports you are always worth a good laugh.
Always remember del, they are laughing at you, not laughing with you.
But isn't that true about any other one particular stat? I mean what stat is there that tells you that Greg Maddux was superior at painting the corners better than just about every other pitcher who ever played the game? Certainly not wins, because there are lots of pitchers with lots of wins who pitched nothing like Maddux. Certainly not strike outs, because while Maddox had a lot of them there are other pitchers with as many or more who pitched nothing like him. Not WHIP, because, for instance Maddox and Randy Johnson ended their careers with very similar WHIPs but they pitched nothing at all like each other.
WAR doesn't pretend to tell you what kind of player someone is, only what their contribution to winning games is. And it's certainly not perfect. As was pointed out, the defensive component of it is something that I think pretty much everyone would agree needs work. But if we are going to ignore every stat or metric that isn't perfect then we are going to have to ignore them all, because none of them are perfect.
Look . We all know Nutting isn't the second calling of Branch Rickey .
He is a jag off who's only looking after himself . Which in normal circumstances is great . The American way .
He just so happens right now to own a baseball team .
Who you buy to win championships . I would hope .
If the jag shows no interest in winning .
Give it up and go suck off the public tit somewhere else .
Let a passionate billionaire who loves baseball buy our team and compete like a lot of the mlb cities are .
The "small market angle" ? That is major bull shite when it comes to mlb owners . No cap . No limits .
A billionaire owner is just that . If he wants to win in mlb . Spend some money
Well of course he isn't. Nutting is an owner. And certainly not a good one. Rickey was a GM. And one of the best.
Look we can debate about WAR , who owned what and was GM where.
The bottom line ? Nutting will never go all in .
You wanna buy into that ? Fine . Wasted money .
Not me.
Yeah, but he was never the majority owner and he never was the one making the decisions for the franchise at the ownership level. He was more like a guy like Don Beaver, who has owned a portion of the Pirates since the McClatchey/Nutting takeover and has been a member of their board, but he doesn't run the show and he doesn't make the decisions at a corporate level (or any other level, for that matter).
It's entertainment. If you don't want to buy into it then don't. The amount of bitching that people do because they are pissed off that someone else won't spend more of their own money to keep them entertained is, quite frankly, bizarre. Nutting doesn't owe any of us anything (assuming that we don't buy a ticket to a game). And we don't owe anything to him. If the Pirates don't entertain you then find your entertainment elsewhere. It is not, and never has been, something worth getting so pissed off over.
Wow .
He may has well have went and threw his money into a wishing well .
I'm not fooled .
Well, in fairness the taxpayers DID buy the Pirates a pretty darn nice ballpark, AND the commitment was if the stadium was built, the team would invest a lot of the proceeds into the payroll. Of course that was McClatchy, with Nutting as a minor owner. However, now Nutting holds the aces, and he has shown no proclivity at throwing money at the team, even when he should.
The sad thing is, there are actually worse owners in MLB. Ask the Mets fans what they think of their owner? Pittsburgh is stuck with Nutting and he makes money if they fill the place up or not. He gets MLB TV $, local TV $ and gets penalty $ from big spending teams. If he draws a million, which they will do, he turns a nice profit. Plus, in case you haven't been paying attention, the Pirates/Nutting will just cut payroll to match any decrease in ticket revenues. He can't/won't lose money, and he has stated he will leave the team to his heirs. He can't be shamed into selling either. Sad fact, but fact nonetheless.
The team is back to scuffling, losing to Cubbies, this homestand will probably sink them. Oh well kind of fun while it lasted. Still interesting to see what some of the youngsters can do, and Dickerson has been a great acquisition. Pitching crashing and burning though, starters and relievers both.
Religious reasons. A rather principled stand (but one that didn't keep him out of the majors).
Your new handle...Joe, the dumb bloviator....from this point forward...You weren't talking about capital appreciation...you don't even know what that is..you were talking about income...Joe, the dumb bloviator!
Changing topics within this thread a little but it really ticked me off yesterday when Rizzo clearly tried to take out Diaz’s legs and the Bucs did nothing to retaliate! Rizzo batted next inning and should have had a 90+ aimed right at HIS knees. Gutless Bucs.
Honestly Joe, baseball is turning more into a Stratomatic board game now. Just roll dice based on probabilities.
That's really how you look at it. I don't give a crap at all about a baseball game, or any team that much. If the Pirates are 40-100 and have a payroll lower than 10 minor league teams and friends tell me they're going out to the park to drink beer, sure, I'll come, it's the same as going to happy hour or a movie, JUST ENTERTAINMENT. That's why most people keep going to Brown games in December are still sold out too, because even at 0-15, people still want to get drunk at the tailgate party.
