You may be right. I think I’m biased against his shot the same way I was with X….because of their non-conventional shot form.
Vanderbilt Game & Other Dribbles ...
- Thread starter DT_PITT
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You play to your actual team strengths and adjust accordingly to what your own players bring to the table. And you attack opposing team weaknesses.
And if you think Im full of hot air and want to learn about basketball, pick up a few Bobby Knight books and learn how he actually coached his teams and made adjustments.
Bobby Knight would laugh at Nate Oats with what Oats said about the midrange game.
I agree with playing to strengths. No argument there. But it’s remarkable that you post all these advanced metrics and ignore that it’s already been demonstrated that mid range shots are the worst shots.
And I’m not sure I’d use a caveman like Knight to comment on anything modern. Not just hoops but life in general. The game’s changed. And I enjoyed the older style more, but too bad for me. Cause unless they change some rules it’s not going back.
Nate Oats and the entire NBA = midrange is extinct
Jeff Capel and Vader = midrange is a great shot
hmm, not quite sure who I’ll side with on this debate. Brilliant basketball minds… or Capel and Vader. Man I gotta ponder this one for a while.
I agree with your first paragraph.
Knight’s inability to adjust with the times is what led to his downfall.
Femi was driven by a number of times last night, so I don’t think he was terrific defensively.
Ahhhhh, Nate Oats. The guy who we could have gotten for $4-$5 million per year. Instead we hired a guy who we'll have to pay $15 million to buy out.
I honestly don’t think it is fair to judge some of these guys because I feel they would be better under a good coaching staff.
He was. But he also was matched up against Pippen, the SEC preseason player of the year. Players like that are going to score at some point. Players like that still got theirs against the Jaron Brown's of the world, Tony Allen for example in the NCAA Tournament when Allen abused Brown.
There is only 1 Julius Page on defense that stopped almost everybody. And you have to work together as a team on defense. We did that in spurts.
I don’t doubt good coaches could get more out of this team. But even if they maxed out it’s still a 3 or 4 ACC win team. This squad is just bereft of talent.
Not sure how you guys care enough to argue. It’s over until Capel’s gone
Look at other former Pitt players who went to other programs and did a lot better than they did under Capel. There are obviously exceptions, but the rule remains the same with a Capel-coached player. And recruits know what the rule is. That's why they're not coming here.
And as far as playing to strengths - again yea. But if that’s their strength it also demonstrates his terrible recruiting. In 2021 they have a team that can’t make 3s. And they’re not just bad, they’re awful.
Outscored by 24 points from 3. That type of differential makes it virtually impossible to win.
Pitt will - again this season - see LOADS of zone and compacted, sagging m2m defenses. It will be tough to drive and penetrate because teams will ignore defending Pitt on the perimeter and clog the paint.
What happened when Vandy made their run in the 2H and started to drain 3’s was that Pitt got discouraged. They know in their hearts they are not a play from behind team. You could see the energy drain out from the Panthers.
Winning solely by playing D in today’s CBB - even if you have an advantage in size, strength, depth and elite athleticism (and Pitt doesn’t) - is very difficult because of the 3 point shot. Pitt will be at a severe disadvantage vs everyone in the ACC in that regard. Maybe vs everyone left on their OOC schedule, too?
Scrabbling together enough offense and scoring to win from this roster will be a daunting challenge. And because of that, so will keeping the energy level to play with extreme effort and intensity on the D end and glass.
Pitt will - again this season - see LOADS of zone and compacted, sagging m2m defenses. It will be tough to drive and penetrate because teams will ignore defending Pitt on the perimeter and clog the paint.
What happened when Vandy made their run in the 2H and started to drain 3’s was that Pitt got discouraged. They know in their hearts they are not a play from behind team. You could see the energy drain out from the Panthers.
Winning solely by playing D in today’s CBB - even if you have an advantage in size, strength, depth and elite athleticism (and Pitt doesn’t) - is very difficult because of the 3 point shot. Pitt will be at a severe disadvantage vs everyone in the ACC in that regard. Maybe vs everyone left on their OOC schedule, too?
Scrabbling together enough offense and scoring to win from this roster will be a daunting challenge. And because of that, so will keeping the energy level to play with extreme effort and intensity on the D end and glass.
This is sobering, but very much our reality I’m sorry to say.
This far, Pitt is shooting 21.7% from 3. For this team, midrange shots may be better, simply because they are so poor at shooting 3’s. For the rest of basketball, midrange may be extinct, but for Pitt those may be the best shots.
The sad reality for the Panthers at the moment is that any shot they can get to go in is their best shot. As we noted last night, nothing on the offensive end comes easily.
44% of Gonzaga's total shots this year are from the midrange. And that is the #1 offense in the country. Gonzaga has had the #1 offense in all of college basketball 4 straight years in a row.
Is anyone going to bet on Nate Oats and his non midrange shooting Alabama team to beat Gonzaga? Ill take some of that action in the NCAA Tournament.
i like Jeffress' energy, D and flying around but...the shot is rough and, more than that, he doesn't seem to have any offensive moves. At least, he hasn't shown any. Surprising in someone rated so highly.
I know. I’m right there with you.
The work that needed to be done in the off season as far as acquiring players (both HS and Transfer Portal) wasn’t done. The HC’s in game coaching is certainly worth questioning. But with this roster (and the roster is ABSOLUTELY 100% on him), it’s difficult to even evaluate that right now (although that doesn't appear to be great, either 😏). The off court dysfunctionality of the last couple of seasons has manifested itself. He is paying a SEVERE price for it.
With EVERYONE available (including Nike & Horton) it was going to be dicey. Because it left the margin for error perilously thin. As we’re now seeing the results of with NEITHER Ithiel or Nike, there is just 0 reliable or consistent deep shooting potential from the G’s.
A smallish roster that is 1 dimensional offensively with no deep shooting presence is a sitting duck. That’s where Pitt is. They played hard enough to be competitive vs a mediocre team last night for about 25-30 minutes out of 40 last night. But that ain’t cutting it. 52 points aren't going to win you many games these days.
There are NO acceptable excuses. No idea how he can salvage things or extricate himself from this mess. 🤷♂️
Step back for a minute and try and think of ONE good thing about Capel. This can be anything about any part of his coaching, recruiting, ideas, philosophy, beliefs. I'm sorry but I can't think of one good thing. He did coach under Coach K, and that was a good thing I suppose.
It is about putting the ball in the hoop. Few is recruiting elite players now. They can make shots and get whatever shot they want because they have a complete roster and they can all make shots. We just don't have shooters. Capel and staff can't get those guys.
Big John looks confused and hopeless. I would blame Capel for that. He is this offenses number one option and teams know that. That is why he is swarmed the minute he gets the ball in the post. I can't blame Capel for Horton running afoul of the law, but another shooter could have helped this team's spacing and maybe make a little extra room for big John to move down low.
In the meantime, we will be getting our brains beat in game in and game out from 3 point land. Vandy crushed us last night and so did the Citadel. By the time we get to conference games we will be getting smacked by 30 to 40 each night and we will be able to trace it to our ineptness at making them, and by then this team will have given up trying to defend the other team from spanking us with them.
It is hard to believe we are not that many games removed from beating Duke in a scintillating game at the Pete. What the he'll happened to this staff and team?
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What was totally obvious to me was that once Vandy hit a few threes in the second half Pitt was done .
Without the scoring of Nike and Horton Pitt doesn’t have the horsepower to stay with anyone .
You have to wonder if the time Big John was out last year has effected his fitness ? He was always a big kid whose worked hard to get his weight down and struggled to stay fit .
If Jeffress doesn’t find a shot and Horton doesn’t return Pitt will not win a conference game . The same can be said with BG scoring 1 pt .
This is going to be a long season for those of us who don’t give up !
I hate to say this , but in yr 4 there are no excuses to be this bad and if KS had survived to yr 4 I’ll be willing to bet you Pitt wouldn’t be anywhere close to this bad . A striking difference is that JC best players leave and KS best players left when he was fired ! Boy what a sad state of affairs Pitt bb has become when you long for KS ! Thank you Scott Barnes !
With Mintz coming in and with the hope that 1 or 2 of his buds coming with him that in staying the course with JC was the right thing to do . He finally had found his footings in recruiting for Pitt . With the Mintz de commitment and no other recruits signed and a potential winless conference record looking highly probable I can’t see how he survives. Unless he can somehow get Mintz to reconsider and add a few other top recruits Pitt needs to move in a different direction . Where they find the cash who knows , but it’s becoming obvious this was a hire that on paper looked great that has just gone in the toilet .
Without the scoring of Nike and Horton Pitt doesn’t have the horsepower to stay with anyone .
You have to wonder if the time Big John was out last year has effected his fitness ? He was always a big kid whose worked hard to get his weight down and struggled to stay fit .
If Jeffress doesn’t find a shot and Horton doesn’t return Pitt will not win a conference game . The same can be said with BG scoring 1 pt .
This is going to be a long season for those of us who don’t give up !
I hate to say this , but in yr 4 there are no excuses to be this bad and if KS had survived to yr 4 I’ll be willing to bet you Pitt wouldn’t be anywhere close to this bad . A striking difference is that JC best players leave and KS best players left when he was fired ! Boy what a sad state of affairs Pitt bb has become when you long for KS ! Thank you Scott Barnes !
With Mintz coming in and with the hope that 1 or 2 of his buds coming with him that in staying the course with JC was the right thing to do . He finally had found his footings in recruiting for Pitt . With the Mintz de commitment and no other recruits signed and a potential winless conference record looking highly probable I can’t see how he survives. Unless he can somehow get Mintz to reconsider and add a few other top recruits Pitt needs to move in a different direction . Where they find the cash who knows , but it’s becoming obvious this was a hire that on paper looked great that has just gone in the toilet .
In my own viewpoint, these 4 players (which is what I said before) and how they develop as players and statistically from now until seasons end will be telling ( Femi, Nate, Big John, Will). These 4 are either the future or they are not.
There is a good chance Mintz ends up at Kansas.
Femi is a 3. With some pg abilities
I have to agree with this. I found it amusing that there has been a lot of talk about Hughley’s body language. Jeff was on 93.7 earlier this week. He sounded as if he was totally defeated. Totally the opposite of what an upbeat coach should be. The most alarming fact in this entire situation is that we have no recruits for next year. None. That is hard to believe but it says a lot. The sooner that he leaves the better off we are. And I wouldn’t mind if that was today. Let’s get started on the new regime. Does it make any difference if we win five games or 12 games This year? No. This program has become a laughing stock. I have not kept up with all the details about the sins of Sean Miller but I would have to be thinking about him. He did a lot for this program as a player. With a terrible coach. Just saying.
The reality of this situation is we have become Boston college. Some teams seem to be destined to finish last or next to last every season. This is where we are presently, face it. My fear is who would want to take a job on that is in this shape. The last 2 coaches would have been fired and remember we ran the third coach out. This would be considered a graveyard for any upwardly mobile coach. I am really concerned the spiraling might be out of control.
Can we please leave philosophy and personal beliefs out of the discussion about Capel. Your views on these subjects are well known and I’d rather not have the thread soiled in that way.
DT…. Way too much good in the world and your life to waste any of your Thanksgiving posting about the current Pitt basketball team.
Always appreciate the Dribbles and have a great Thanksgiving. Maybe next year we’ll have a team to be thankful for.
Devin booker would like a word. Although midrange is mostly dead. It has its place at times but for tons of players it should be avoided.
But sometimes it's the best shot at the time. But not often.
Capel Year 4
PG - Carr (Jr)
SG - Stewart (Jr)
SF - needed someone
PF - Golden
C - Brown/Chukwuka
If he could have added a player or 2, that's a possible NIT team
What Im going to say is going to be a very contrarian point of view considering our guard situation and depth situation.
But I want to see a defensive switch next game and I want to see a light press with trapping with this lineup.
Femi-Burton-Nate-Will-Collier or maybe Gueye at center
There are plenty of large wingspans across the board to create turnover problems. There is a lot of quickness that can be applied with defensive ball pressure to create turnovers and try to get our non existent transition offense game going. And the easiest way to score in basketball is cheap points created by turnovers.
At this junction, we have nothing to lose. But Femi, both at Springfield Academy and all of last year, thrives with advanced defensive pressure picked up from full or 3/4 court. He is best playing that style. Femi could be a force in a Bob Huggins system. He created a ton of turnovers last year with advanced pressure that led to points, including multiple come from behind wins because of it.
We have nothing to lose by trying this. But if we create turnovers with our defense and it creates some offense, we have something to gain. And if this team creates turnovers and actually starts scoring while forcing turnovers, maybe the players will continue to play hard and try.
But I want to see a defensive switch next game and I want to see a light press with trapping with this lineup.
Femi-Burton-Nate-Will-Collier or maybe Gueye at center
There are plenty of large wingspans across the board to create turnover problems. There is a lot of quickness that can be applied with defensive ball pressure to create turnovers and try to get our non existent transition offense game going. And the easiest way to score in basketball is cheap points created by turnovers.
At this junction, we have nothing to lose. But Femi, both at Springfield Academy and all of last year, thrives with advanced defensive pressure picked up from full or 3/4 court. He is best playing that style. Femi could be a force in a Bob Huggins system. He created a ton of turnovers last year with advanced pressure that led to points, including multiple come from behind wins because of it.
We have nothing to lose by trying this. But if we create turnovers with our defense and it creates some offense, we have something to gain. And if this team creates turnovers and actually starts scoring while forcing turnovers, maybe the players will continue to play hard and try.
I don’t care who the coach at Pitt is he’s not getting a kid with a Kansas offer . Coaching in the pros is all about recognizing talent in college it’s signing them . JC knows talent he just can’t sell Pitt to them . Will the next coach at Pitt be any better?
Nate has a great looking shot , but he needs help and I think it’s Horton who he needs .
Big John needs some space and he also needs Horton .
Looks like to me JC needs Horton to be reinstated and be the player he hyped him to be the yr he sat out !
So would Kawhi.
Hoops threads are basically useless. Everyone is hell bent on defending their position at the extent of any productive discussion.
Definitely better with Burton at point and really have to have both on the court together. Also really need Santos and the good Hughley and then sprinkle in Dan or Will. Can be a pretty good defensive team, but not a lot of hope that the offense improves.
Ski.
Let me say it like this. Michael Jordan was the greatest offensive scoring force in basketball history bar none. Nobody is in the same league as Jordan when it comes to pure scoring.
And if you put Jordan in his prime in the NBA today with todays NBA rules, he would embarrass people from the midrange game every single game. EVERY SINGLE GAME Michael Jordan would rip through these players and teams from the midrange game and make opposing teams look silly doing it.
All this stuff about the game changing, the midrange is dead, and so forth, the greatest basketball player that ever existed would say otherwise that the midrange game is fully alive.
And I will debate this point with anybody.
Yeah but they already decided they'll play insanely slow although we have limited shooting ability
You can certainly play slow on offense. That doesnt always have to be the case with defense.
When u cannot shoot this happens. The team is not discipline enough to play d to cover for their non shooting ability. Only going to get worse. We know this. How long can hugley stay motivated not getting his way. How long before Capel starts to get more aggravated. No recruits he has to wait till the transfer window now. U can’t win like this and Heather knows it. See if she ignores the obvious or deals with realty. Turns out Capel needs to start at a small school he really does not know how to run a program and got distracted by things going on in the world and let his assistants have to much control. When ur coach k u can do this when ur Jeff Capel it does not work. Name and good talk only goes so far when u have not done anything yet. Ask the cam bonify and Dave littlefields of the world
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