They have the championships to prove it.
Will USC go after Franklin
- Thread starter pbrad
- Start date
What would I do all day long(while the dough is rising)if I couldn't get on other teams message boards?Side note Wvu has 20 NCAA Rifle Championships but we suck in football this year,thanks Holgy!
First of all, James Franklin has done a great job at Penn State. He seems incredibly unlikable to me, but he can clearly recruit well.
I have always said that the JoePa persona was who Penn Staters aspired to be seen like. The erudite, scholarly, ethically driven old-school coach. It was all bullshit of coarse, but that’s how they like to see themselves. That’s also why they reacted so strongly when he went down. They took an attack on him as a personal attack on them and all they stood for.
However, James Franklin is who they truly are. He is the embodiment of every Penn State fan I know. No humility, as cocky as they come, a complete lack of awareness or respect for anyone else, the whole 9 yards.
Franklin is a perfect fit in State College, absolutely perfect.
Also, he is really recruiting well there and he deserves credit for that. there is an undeniable energy around the program that had long been missing.
We should’ve taken advantage of that opportunity but we are Pitt and we are incredibly self-destructive. We would rather change coaches every three years than invest in the program and do it the intelligent way.
I have always said that the JoePa persona was who Penn Staters aspired to be seen like. The erudite, scholarly, ethically driven old-school coach. It was all bullshit of coarse, but that’s how they like to see themselves. That’s also why they reacted so strongly when he went down. They took an attack on him as a personal attack on them and all they stood for.
However, James Franklin is who they truly are. He is the embodiment of every Penn State fan I know. No humility, as cocky as they come, a complete lack of awareness or respect for anyone else, the whole 9 yards.
Franklin is a perfect fit in State College, absolutely perfect.
Also, he is really recruiting well there and he deserves credit for that. there is an undeniable energy around the program that had long been missing.
We should’ve taken advantage of that opportunity but we are Pitt and we are incredibly self-destructive. We would rather change coaches every three years than invest in the program and do it the intelligent way.
Now, having said all that, USC is one of the few jobs in the country that is CLEARLY a better job than the Penn State job.
However, there’s certainly no shame in that because that’s one of the top four or five jobs in the country.
The Penn State job isn’t missing much and I agree with those who say that they have all the resources they need to compete for any coach. However, the USC job is just on a different level with regard to available talent and commitment and everything else.
Also, Penn State is never going to be the top program in the Big Ten. It’s probably the third strongest program in the Big Ten behind Michigan or Ohio State. That is not to say that they can’t win the league every few years, because they obviously can. However, they don’t have the same structural supports as those programs. In that way, I see Penn State as being a bit more like Nebraska and Wisconsin — which is still outstanding, but not on the Ohio State or Michigan level.
USC, on the other hand, obviously can be at that level and really should be at that level. I mean if you were too look around and think of everything that all of the top programs have, who has more potential than Southern California?
Texas maybe?
Alsbama?
Florida?
Georgia?
Notre Dane?
Ohio State?
Oklahoma?
That’s basically the list and I think USC compares favorably to most of those elite schools.
Also, the Pac-12 is relatively down. It’s having a nicer year this year than it is had in several years, but it is still ripe for the picking. It’s a great opportunity. Let me put it this way, if it was a stock, you would want to buy it right now.
They just renovated the LA Memorial Coliseum and they are desperate to get back to the Pete Carroll days, so they are going to pay out the wazoo for whoever they hire next.
They tried to go the cheap route and it obviously didn’t work. They are going to go for a big name guy and Urban Meyer obviously makes the most sense. That is who I would consider the overwhelming favorite to take that job.
Also, I think he would destroy it there.
However, let’s say he really is finished with coaching. Who would be the next slam dunk guy who they know could recruit well there and who would be interested in it?
I think at that point, Franklin makes all the sense in the world. Really, who else is there that would fit that bill and excite the people of LA?
However, there’s certainly no shame in that because that’s one of the top four or five jobs in the country.
The Penn State job isn’t missing much and I agree with those who say that they have all the resources they need to compete for any coach. However, the USC job is just on a different level with regard to available talent and commitment and everything else.
Also, Penn State is never going to be the top program in the Big Ten. It’s probably the third strongest program in the Big Ten behind Michigan or Ohio State. That is not to say that they can’t win the league every few years, because they obviously can. However, they don’t have the same structural supports as those programs. In that way, I see Penn State as being a bit more like Nebraska and Wisconsin — which is still outstanding, but not on the Ohio State or Michigan level.
USC, on the other hand, obviously can be at that level and really should be at that level. I mean if you were too look around and think of everything that all of the top programs have, who has more potential than Southern California?
Texas maybe?
Alsbama?
Florida?
Georgia?
Notre Dane?
Ohio State?
Oklahoma?
That’s basically the list and I think USC compares favorably to most of those elite schools.
Also, the Pac-12 is relatively down. It’s having a nicer year this year than it is had in several years, but it is still ripe for the picking. It’s a great opportunity. Let me put it this way, if it was a stock, you would want to buy it right now.
They just renovated the LA Memorial Coliseum and they are desperate to get back to the Pete Carroll days, so they are going to pay out the wazoo for whoever they hire next.
They tried to go the cheap route and it obviously didn’t work. They are going to go for a big name guy and Urban Meyer obviously makes the most sense. That is who I would consider the overwhelming favorite to take that job.
Also, I think he would destroy it there.
However, let’s say he really is finished with coaching. Who would be the next slam dunk guy who they know could recruit well there and who would be interested in it?
I think at that point, Franklin makes all the sense in the world. Really, who else is there that would fit that bill and excite the people of LA?
Just a few notes........
I think Doc's comments about Pitt being "incredibly destructive" is so true. Here's the real kick in the groin in that sentiment. You would think no other school would realize the importance of hiring and/or retaining a great coach. No school in my lifetime probably was as negatively affected, effect that we are feeling 35+ years later, by a single coaching change. I am talking Sherrill to Foge. And on this note, we have seen the very bluest of the blues also being affected by poor coaching hires, Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, USC, Texas, Florida, FSU, Oklahoma....all of them. But most of them have the infrastructure to recover with a redo. Pitt WRECKED its progam. Just drove it off the cliff with its hire. We took a National Title team (remember kids, preseason unanimous #1 in 1982) and just drove it off a friggin cliff. You can almost argue that we imposed a death penalty on ourselves the likes of SMU.
But we haven't learned.
The PSU analogies pertaining to Paterno and Franklin. Perfect, they are both. They are that "we do things the right way" mantra like they are the only public academic institution that is in line with Stanford and the Ivy's. PSU is a good school, but they are no different than Pitt in that respect. Both great schools. Same with Ohio State. Same with most of the Big's and ACC schools. But PSU thinks they are superior. And then then that annoyance...
As for USC, they have big $$$ donors for sure, but they have effed up more coaching hires than they have gotten right over the last 50 years. So it is even money if they would do this right. They have alot of Pitt in them in some ways, looking for an SC man to lead them.....whether from an AD or Coach. It hasn't worked out well. Maybe now they will learn their lesson unlike Pitt.
Franklin would excel out there, but let's be honest, he is killing it at Penn State. But what he doesn't have out there is Ohio State in the same division. The Pac 12 is weak, but I know this, an undefeated or 1 loss USC is not getting shut out the of the playoffs, I can't say that about any other Pac 12 team.
I think Doc's comments about Pitt being "incredibly destructive" is so true. Here's the real kick in the groin in that sentiment. You would think no other school would realize the importance of hiring and/or retaining a great coach. No school in my lifetime probably was as negatively affected, effect that we are feeling 35+ years later, by a single coaching change. I am talking Sherrill to Foge. And on this note, we have seen the very bluest of the blues also being affected by poor coaching hires, Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, USC, Texas, Florida, FSU, Oklahoma....all of them. But most of them have the infrastructure to recover with a redo. Pitt WRECKED its progam. Just drove it off the cliff with its hire. We took a National Title team (remember kids, preseason unanimous #1 in 1982) and just drove it off a friggin cliff. You can almost argue that we imposed a death penalty on ourselves the likes of SMU.
But we haven't learned.
The PSU analogies pertaining to Paterno and Franklin. Perfect, they are both. They are that "we do things the right way" mantra like they are the only public academic institution that is in line with Stanford and the Ivy's. PSU is a good school, but they are no different than Pitt in that respect. Both great schools. Same with Ohio State. Same with most of the Big's and ACC schools. But PSU thinks they are superior. And then then that annoyance...
As for USC, they have big $$$ donors for sure, but they have effed up more coaching hires than they have gotten right over the last 50 years. So it is even money if they would do this right. They have alot of Pitt in them in some ways, looking for an SC man to lead them.....whether from an AD or Coach. It hasn't worked out well. Maybe now they will learn their lesson unlike Pitt.
Franklin would excel out there, but let's be honest, he is killing it at Penn State. But what he doesn't have out there is Ohio State in the same division. The Pac 12 is weak, but I know this, an undefeated or 1 loss USC is not getting shut out the of the playoffs, I can't say that about any other Pac 12 team.
Franklin has done a lot of preaching about the team being family, and how he feels like he has 105 sons in addition to his 2 daughters. Maybe that is true, maybe that is bullshit. I do think, however, that if he leaves to more easily pursue his goal of being the first African-American coach to win a national championship, then that narrative will be shown to be completely false, since he'd be abandoning his "family" in order to achieve a singular personal goal. Now, he wouldn't the first or last coach to make such a move, but if he does then he will lose the ability to use one of his main selling points to recruits and assistant coaches, and in my view this would greatly diminish his effectiveness as a salesman. (And yes, great recruiters are all salesmen.)
The question is, as difficult as it is to get out of the Big Ten east and make the CFP, of what value is it for a PAC-12 team to get there more easily? Those teams don't play anybody that are any good for most of the season, and then all of a sudden they have to play real teams from the SEC. Chances are they get smoked most of the time. At the end of the day they win as many national championships as PSU, which effectively means likely none.
He still winds up getting paid, either way, just like all big time coaches. In that regard, none of them are losers.
The question is, as difficult as it is to get out of the Big Ten east and make the CFP, of what value is it for a PAC-12 team to get there more easily? Those teams don't play anybody that are any good for most of the season, and then all of a sudden they have to play real teams from the SEC. Chances are they get smoked most of the time. At the end of the day they win as many national championships as PSU, which effectively means likely none.
He still winds up getting paid, either way, just like all big time coaches. In that regard, none of them are losers.
Doesn't tOSU get smoked in the CFP? Doesn't seem to hurt their perception -or- recruiting. If Franklin would leave PSU (which quite honestly I could care less if he stays there forever) it would be to escape tOSU and Michigan (and MSU to a degree also). Being at a school that has a REAL shot of being in the final conversation annually could seduce any HC.
Ohio State is 2-1 with a National Championship in the CFP era. They got smoked once....when they were invited to the party as a non-conference champion.
I would like to thank all the PSU fans creeping on our board for their help and consideration 
Naw, I'd have to say Temple's ill-conceived firing of Bruce Arians topped that. (Then-President Peter Liacouras wanted a coach who could take Temple football to the "next level". Yeah, he got "next level", all right. About 25 years of "next level" . . . but I don't think he was anticipating THAT level.)
And then of course there's the years the B1G got shut out of the CFP completely, so yeah.....
We have a nit fan on our Pitt board defending USU, meanwhile OSU fans could give two cents about PSU~
I don't know if I would put USC clearly ahead of PSU. Yes I am an 'Nitter' but bias aside - I still don't feel it is clearly better.
In my opinion there are about 3-4 That are clearly better.
1) Bama
2) OSU
3) Texas
5) Georgia
There are many others that are similar in stature to PSU and may at times be slightly ahead but at times slightly behind. I will use examples comparing PSU to USC (since that is the topic and Michigan as you stated we would be 3rd behind them (where I feel we are at worst equal to them if not slightly ahead)
The criteria I use
1) Local Recruiting Base. People talk about the recruits in California - but don't mention that from LA to SF is like State College to Hartford or Richmond. The amount of Talent in the NE (combined) is similar to the talent in CA - and other than the great LA it isn't much closer to campus. The talent within a 4-5 hour drive of PSU also dwarfs that of Michigan. Yes FLA, Mia, FSU have more talent but they are fighting each other plus all of the SEC.
2) Ability to win a National Title. Yes - PSU has to go against OSU/UM yearly - these things are cyclical. USC has a huge edge in conference schedule - but has ND yearly - and conference strength can affect ability to get into a 4 team playoff. I would call this a push currently because I feel a 1 loss B10 champ will get in before a 1 loss PAC champ (so margin of error is smaller). if/when the expand and guarantee conference champs - the edge goes to USC
3) University commitment. USCs facilities aren't spectacular. PSUs are mediocre currently - but a lot of that was Paterno not pushing. O'Brien pushed for some and got it, Franklin pushed for more and got it. USC at best is equal to PSU.
4) Fan Support. This in itself isn't overly important - but it does drive tv ratings and bowl games (which leads to easier recruiting). It is also key for fundraising for facilities. USC is currently at best the 3rd most popular team in LA (behind the Lakers and Dodgers). That isn't accounting for the Rams/Clippers who are making pushes for fans. PSU is like an SEC school in that a huge % of the residents in the state/area are fans.
5) Revenue - again isn't overly important to a coach other than how it affects his 'department'. More revenue means higher recruiting budget, better facilities, higher paychecks for him and assistants.
Your point about Michigan - all things are essentially even - except recruiting base - which favors PSU.
About USC - USC is even or maybe has an edge in 1-2. # 3 is a push - PSU has the edge in 4. #5 is uknown do to USC being private and all donations/etc might not be known - but the BIG TV deal dwarfs the PAC
Specific to USC
The location of USC campus isn't great. Yes LA is close to the beach but the area surrounding USC leaves a lot to be desired. I realize that a coach can afford to live in nice areas but in LA that could be a 1hr + commute on top of already long days.
In my opinion there are about 3-4 That are clearly better.
1) Bama
2) OSU
3) Texas
5) Georgia
In addition to your four: Clemson, Florida, LSU, Auburn, USC, Oklahoma and Florida State are all easier places to win national titles from than Penn State. Possibly Notre Dame too -- at least they've made two CFPs. That has to be a big part of any "best job" ranking.
Clemson may have the best overall facilities in the country at this point. The fact you don't put them ahead of Penn State just shows a sort of old timey mindset. They get the top recruiting classes in the country because the players know what it's like to play there NOW.
I'd put PSU high in the mix in the "second tier", along with Oregon and Michigan.
Don't worry, I think Pitt is third or fourth tier at best.
1) Bama
2) OSU
3) Texas
5) Georgia
In addition to your four: Clemson, Florida, LSU, Auburn, USC, Oklahoma and Florida State are all easier places to win national titles from than Penn State. Possibly Notre Dame too -- at least they've made two CFPs. That has to be a big part of any "best job" ranking.
Clemson may have the best overall facilities in the country at this point. The fact you don't put them ahead of Penn State just shows a sort of old timey mindset. They get the top recruiting classes in the country because the players know what it's like to play there NOW.
I'd put PSU high in the mix in the "second tier", along with Oregon and Michigan.
Don't worry, I think Pitt is third or fourth tier at best.
I agree that PSU should be in the High 2nd tier if the top tier is the teams I listed.
Clemson - Part of my plum forgot them - but I don't know if I would put them in the top tier automatically. Their local recruiting ground is good - but not great. Their Revenue isn't finalized and if the ACC network takes off like they hope they will have cash. If not - who knows. There is talk if they lose a game - they won't get in over other 1 loss teams so path to playoff isn't clearly better. Would you honestly put the position on par with Bama and OSU and Texas? Yes Dabo has them winning - but they haven't in a while before him. It could be the admin changed mindset and if it did - then I would put them on the top tier - but it could also be lucking into Swinney and having the DC decide he is happy being a DC. Time will tell
As for your other teams -
Florida - For a place that has every advantage - they can't seem to be consistent. Spurrier won there (when the SEC was much easier (only Tennessee was really good besides them) and then with Meyer. The SEC is a minefield and they are clearly the 2nd best in their division at best and probably 4th best overall - not easier than PSU.
LSU - I thought about this - but honestly - they weren't very good for a while until Saban showed up. They have advantages - sure - but everything you say about PSU playing 2nd to OSU applies here.
Auburn - Disagree - they are 2nd most popular in state. No matter how much they hope - they won't pass Bama any time soon.
USC, - already addressed. I don't think their advantages (location to recruits) is that much greater than PSU's to offset the revenue boost that PSU has. Not saying PSU is better - and could see how some feel USC is slightly better - but Honestly feel these are equal.
Oklahoma - Have you ever been to Oklahoma? Honestly - they are close enough to texas (like psu is to the DMV) and play enough games in state for them to recruit it local. I think conference hurts it (less margin for error - they lost and the big 12 playoff hopes are in trouble, but a BIG10 team can get in with one loss).
I don't feel that PSU is clearly better than any of these jobs. I feel they are at the same level as PSU and could see how a coach could leave one for the other (especially with ties).
Florida State - I completely disagree. Their Facilities are lacking when compared to big time programs. They don't sell out (only 1 season did they average capacity for the full year in the past 5) sometimes being 85% full. A top tier school doesn't lose it's coach 1-2 years after winning a MNC to another program that he had no ties prior. They may be at PSU's level - but honestly would put them lower than many that you listed.
It is more than winning a title. It is commitment, recruiting base, fans, etc. Few schools have everything. PSU is one that does along with maybe 10-15 others. Of those - 3-4 are clearly ahead - but the rest are interchangeable.
Ummmmmm No. Not close. Temple was Temple even before Bruce Arians.
Here's Pitt. From 1976 to 1982 there 98 Weeks of AP Polling. Pitt was in the top 10 65 of those 98 weeks!! 65 of those 98 weeks!!! That is 2/3's of the polls. We were #1 3 different years. Pitt was unranked (then they only had top 20, not top 25) 5 weeks!! 5 of those 98 weeks Pitt was unranked. And get this....we were in the top 10 at one point, 35 straight weeks!! And it would have been 44 straight weeks, but in 1980, for 3 weeks we were ranked 11, 12, 11 before getting back into the top 10. Since being ranked #3 in the 1984 preseason poll, there have been 490 weeks of polls. Pitt has been in the top 10 10 weeks. That is 2 %, we have been ranked 58 weeks in top 25 polls (includes the 1989 season where we were ranked the whole year) that is 12%.
Oklahoma is about as blue blood as they come. 3 playoff appearances already under the new system, 48 conference titles, 7 claimed national titles, 10 unclaimed or shared national titles, 7 Heisman winners. Yes, I've been to Oklahoma, I would never want to live there. That never seems to stop their recruiting. I think they're automatically in the top tier just behind Alabama as a destination job.
You're right about Florida States' facilities. Yet I do think they are in the mix because you can win a national title there. Their previous two head coaches both did.
Clemson is where we disagree the most. Dabo has a 10 year $92 million deal. They have the best training facilities in the country. They routinely have the #1, 2, or 3 recruiting class in the country. They don't have great history, but to young players, that doesn't matter that much. Their recruiting turf is excellent because they can grab some of the top players from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. It's just a better job than Penn State now. If Dabo left tomorrow, their next coach would also have a lot to sell players (who are now growing up watching Clemson win national titles) on.
You're right about Florida States' facilities. Yet I do think they are in the mix because you can win a national title there. Their previous two head coaches both did.
Clemson is where we disagree the most. Dabo has a 10 year $92 million deal. They have the best training facilities in the country. They routinely have the #1, 2, or 3 recruiting class in the country. They don't have great history, but to young players, that doesn't matter that much. Their recruiting turf is excellent because they can grab some of the top players from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. It's just a better job than Penn State now. If Dabo left tomorrow, their next coach would also have a lot to sell players (who are now growing up watching Clemson win national titles) on.
There are jagoffs there, too. USC is a private school, only Volleyball star daughters of celebs can get in.
I do believe that you are giving way to much credit to james franklin as a recruiter. In fact, in my opinion, Pat Narduzzi is a much better recruiter then him. franklin gets to walk into the homes of potential recruits and tell them about their 107,000+ stadium that is full of fans 7 games a year. Narduzzi on the other hand, has to try and sell a stadium that is half full to that same 17 year old who thinks he is NFL stud. USC would be making a huge mistake if they were to hire him.
I was just at Florida State and I found its facilities to be quite nice. The Doak is nicer than The Swamp, IMO. Not as large nor as intimidating but FSU a very nice campus overall.
Honestly - other than size - stadium doesn't play a huge part in an athletes decision. They are there a total of 20 hours or so all year. It is the practice facilities, the work out facilities, the amenities in the the athletes area, the dorms/etc. this is where the bulk of the athletes time is spent and what they care about. FSU lacks severely there compared to the top of the top. Not saying it is bad - but it isn't great either. It was one of the many reasons that Jimbo left.
Look at your recruits - when the speak of the facilities and sharing space with the steelers - it isn't as much Heinz - but UPMC center (or whatever its called).
You are a enabler fan so I will decipher this for you.
The players (Panthers & Steelers) are at the UPMC training facility together...... working out, practicing, eating and rehabbing most of the time. They never play a game at Heinz Field at the same time.
The players (Panthers & Steelers) are at the UPMC training facility together...... working out, practicing, eating and rehabbing most of the time. They never play a game at Heinz Field at the same time.
No kidding. My point is that they rave more about the facilities on the southside then they do Heinz. Look at every recruit when they mention stadium - they talk atmosphere - but when they talk facilities it is in relation to the practice facilities - the locker rooms there, and everything else BUT THE ACTUAL stadium. that was point - as another poster said Doak Campbell was nicer than the swamp.
This is correct. There are really only a few schools that get a substantial "bump" in recruiting based on the game day atmosphere, and they're usually because the stadium is massive (PSU, OSU, Michigan), or otherwise produces games that have a reputation (night games at LSU, PSU, etc.).
Penn State is one of the few schools that has both of those things in its favor, and to their credit they sell it well to recruits. But even then, they lose out on a collection of high-level guys to other top schools who have slightly lesser game day environments/smaller stadiums, but have world-class training and practice facilities - see, them losing Bryan Bresee to Clemson, Justin Fields to Georgia, or Julian Fleming to OSU. The white out couldn't overcome the fact that the day-to-day facilities at those schools are better.
I sure hope FSU could perform such a miracle. ACC needs a strong Florida State.
As a guy who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on college tuition for his kids, I do find the college football arms race to be offensive. Those schools with $75 million football buildings and $50 million football dorms are slapping their regular students in the face, when tuition costs keep rising and rising beyond comprehension. I'm obviously in the minority, since blowback is minimal, and I realize that most of those dollars come from private donors, but the whole state of college sports is out of whack.
It's even more obscene to realize that those over-indulgent facilities are used to recruit prima donna players who don't go to class much, so that they can eventually earn millions playing in the NFL, and get a free education and a stipend on top of it. I mean, any rational person has to look at the whole set-up and either get mad as hell or burst out laughing. It's insane.
It's even more obscene to realize that those over-indulgent facilities are used to recruit prima donna players who don't go to class much, so that they can eventually earn millions playing in the NFL, and get a free education and a stipend on top of it. I mean, any rational person has to look at the whole set-up and either get mad as hell or burst out laughing. It's insane.
It is out of whack. The number of schools that break even or better on sports is small and programs like Pitt manage to lose money even after big increases in TV revenue because they increase their budgets even more than that to try to keep up.
That is kind of the whole point. The conferences pay the schools shitloads of money, which the schools in turn have to spend on sports teams so that the conference can continue to exist, in order to earn the money back again to give back to the schools. A few bucks ends up going towards education, but not much. You can argue that the nonscholarship sports get a boost here, but you could also argue that there's not much point to collegiate fencing or diving, anyhow. Nobody draws any lines anymore.
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