OT: Gerrit Cole

[mvk112]

You're making a large assumption that 1) Glasnow won't see his walk rate go up in the majors and 2) Rivero won't regress back to his previous mean in terms of BB/9.

And you are making the large assumption that, even if Rivero's walk rate did regress, his BABIP and stranded rate wouldn't regress just as sharply.

Along with making an assumption that a guy with great stuff that has dominated every level he has pitched at wouldn't be able to get guys out like he has his entire career.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

The bullpen roles matter when you remove one of the top three relievers in baseball and replace him with a middling middle reliever.

No they don't. Watson and Feliz are still only pitching in a specific inning when a specific team is winning by a specific amount of runs or fewer.

The only change is one of the 3 predetermined innings goes to Rivero instead of Melancon.

 

[mvk112]

Are you ready to put Gary Sanchez in the Hall of Fame? How about calling Adam Frazier an everyday player?

You seem to like making ridiculous conclusion on ridiculous sample sizes.

You are either trolling us on purpose, or are really sadly ignorant.

Adam Frazier should be starting at 2B against RHP, thats for sure.

Gary Sanchez is s big time prospect, just like Bell. They both should've been up much earlier in the year. In the Yankees defense though, at least they had a legitimate catcher at the MLB level.

 

[pittmeister]

He wasted about a quarter of his budget on bad players. Please stop blaming everything on Nutting when NH used a ton of his resources poorly.

Stop it! Just stop it!

Again, he can't be perfect. Everyone thought at the time that Niese for Walker was a reasonable deal. Nobody is Nostradamus... His predecessors (Littlefield & Bonifay)wasted more money with worse results. Here's a refresher course:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dave_Littlefield

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_Bonifay

Maybe you'd rather have these guys back?????

NH had done more than the last two GM's combined....

 

[mvk112]

No they don't. Watson and Feliz are still only pitching in a specific inning when a specific team is winning by a specific amount of runs or fewer.

The only change is one of the 3 predetermined innings goes to Rivero instead of Melancon.

Do you really believe they lose that game last night if they had Melancon instead of Rivero? Seriously?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

And you are making the large assumption that, even if Rivero's walk rate did regress, his BABIP and stranded rate wouldn't regress just as sharply.

Along with making an assumption that a guy with great stuff that has dominated every level he has pitched at wouldn't be able to get guys out like he has his entire career.

Which is why I would look at his FIP.

And when everybody is saying "Glasnow needs to do this to be successful" and then he comes up and can do none of those things and looks terrible in the process, yeah I'm going to doubt him.

There's no larger jump in baseball than AAA to MLB.

 

[mvk112]

Stop it! Just stop it!

Again, he can't be perfect. Everyone thought at the time that Niese for Walker was a reasonable deal. Nobody is Nostradamus... His predecessors (Littlefield & Bonifay)wasted more money with worse results. Here's a refresher course:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dave_Littlefield

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_Bonifay

Maybe you'd rather have these guys back?????

NH had done more than the last two GM's combined....

Who thought it was a reasonable deal? Only those that cheer for everything Neal thought it was a good deal. They dealt a consistent 2.7 WAR, 115 OPS+ player for a pitcher bumped from the rotation the previous year. It was an awful deal to begin with, and it played out just like that. It downgraded two spots on the roster.

Asking NH not to do dumb shit like that isn't asking for perfection. It's common sense.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Adam Frazier should be starting at 2B against RHP, thats for sure.

Gary Sanchez is s big time prospect, just like Bell. They both should've been up much earlier in the year. In the Yankees defense though, at least they had a legitimate catcher at the MLB level.

Did you just call Brian McCann legitimate? Lol.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Do you really believe they lose that game last night if they had Melancon instead of Rivero? Seriously?

I thought you didn't deal in hypotheticals?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Do you really believe they lose that game last night if they had Melancon instead of Rivero? Seriously?

Why would I have any faith in Feliz effectively navigating Bryant, Rizzo, and Zobrist in the 7th inning?

The 2 relievers who got hit last night would still be pitching with Melancon.

 

[mvk112]

Which is why I would look at his FIP.

And when everybody is saying "Glasnow needs to do this to be successful" and then he comes up and can do none of those things and looks terrible in the process, yeah I'm going to doubt him.

There's no larger jump in baseball than AAA to MLB.

Glasnow was injured his second start. His first start he didn't have a big issue with walks. He gave up a HR, which he never had an issue with in the minors.

I mean, I get that a very small sample is what you guys live to base things on (2 starts for Glasnow, 3 for Cole, a few for Niva, 14 innings for Rivero) but this is just ridiculous.

 

[mvk112]

I thought you didn't deal in hypotheticals?

Touche

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Glasnow was injured his second start. His first start he didn't have a big issue with walks. He gave up a HR, which he never had an issue with in the minors.

I mean, I get that a very small sample is what you guys live to base things on (2 starts for Glasnow, 3 for Cole, a few for Niva, 14 innings for Rivero) but this is just ridiculous.

Except you're trying to compare his success against lineups that have maybe 2-3 MLB level hitters in a given night against lineups of only MLB hitters.

He can't locate his pitches n the strike zone and he got hit hard because he can't just overwhelm guys with stuff like he can in the minors.

Like, I guess you can argue small samples but you also attempted to argue scouting reports earlier so at this point you're just seeming desperate to find some way to justify Glasnow being here.

Literally everything scouting reports said would hurt him wound up hurting him. He hung curveballs in the zone, he got run on, he fell behind, and he's thrown a grand total of 2 changeups in 161 pitches.

 

[pittmeister]

Who thought it was a reasonable deal? Only those that cheer for everything Neal thought it was a good deal. They dealt a consistent 2.7 WAR, 115 OPS+ player for a pitcher bumped from the rotation the previous year. It was an awful deal to begin with, and it played out just like that. It downgraded two spots on the roster.

Asking NH not to do dumb shit like that isn't asking for perfection. It's common sense.

Local beat writers thought it was a decent deal. Look it up. They dealt Walker because Nutting would never spend what it would take to retain Walker after 2016. They didn't trade him because he sucked.

I guess you are saying you'd rather have the previous two GM's instead of NH? They spent more money with less results.

 

[mvk112]

Did you just call Brian McCann legitimate? Lol.

McCann is one of the best defensive catchers in baseball and has a 100 wRC+ on the season. There are only 6 catchers with 350+ PA with a higher wRC+. He most certainly is legitimate.

He was at 106 wRC+ last year and had 3.0 WAR. I'm not sure you understand positional relevance. A catcher with a 100 wRC+ that plays good defense us valuable. A 1B with a sub 100 wRC+ and average at best defense is awful.

 

[mvk112]

Except you're trying to compare his success against lineups that have maybe 2-3 MLB level hitters in a given night against lineups of only MLB hitters.

He can't locate his pitches n the strike zone and he got hit hard because he can't just overwhelm guys with stuff like he can in the minors.

Like, I guess you can argue small samples but you also attempted to argue scouting reports earlier so at this point you're just seeming desperate to find some way to justify Glasnow being here.

Literally everything scouting reports said would hurt him wound up hurting him. He hung curveballs in the zone, he got run on, he fell behind, and he's thrown a grand total of 2 changeups in 161 pitches.

And he made two starts, one he was injured in.

 

[mvk112]

Local beat writers thought it was a decent deal. Look it up. They dealt Walker because Nutting would never spend what it would take to retain Walker after 2016. They didn't trade him because he sucked.

I guess you are saying you'd rather have the previous two GM's instead of NH? They spent more money with less results.

Local beat writers suck.

And no, the previous GMs didn't spend more money than NH.

You know you're allowed to keep a guy in the last year of his contract, right? Many teams do with good players.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

They dealt Walker because Nutting would never spend what it would take to retain Walker after 2016. They didn't trade him because he sucked

Wasn't money, it's just what teams do with guys who aren't candidates for an extension and aren't going to be worth a qualifying offer.

Theory is that you try to get back some sort of value rather than lose a guy for nothing. In hindsight they should have gotten some fringe prospects instead, but in general that's why most of these trades are predictable.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

And he made two starts, one he was injured in.

So his inability to control the run game, command his pitches, and throw strikes consistently was just small sample noise? He would have been miraculously better at those things at this level than he was in AAA?

Okay.

I mean, Brault, Kuhl, and Taillon have all seen their K/9 drop and their BB/9 rise when comparing their AAA performances to their MLB performances but I'm sure Glasnow -- the guy considered the most raw of the 3 -- would have been the exception.

 

[pittmeister]

Local beat writers suck.

And no, the previous GMs didn't spend more money than NH.

You know you're allowed to keep a guy in the last year of his contract, right? Many teams do with good players.

Again, this is where you lose credibility and people question your baseball IQ.

Local beat writers suck? They talk to baseball analyst outside of Pittsburgh all the time.

Many teams keep players in the last year of the contract? Yeah, only in the hopes of re-signing them. You know the track record with ownership. They were not going to re-sign him. Everybody knew it. So NH tried to get something for him. Teams knowing that low balled NH. It didn't work out.

Instead of chastising NH, you might want to direct your ire towards Nutting. When you got money to spend, any GM looks good....

No, you're not stupid, you're stubborn and narrow minded....

 

[mvk112]

So his inability to control the run game, command his pitches, and throw strikes consistently was just small sample noise? He would have been miraculously better at those things at this level than he was in AAA?

Okay.

I mean, Brault, Kuhl, and Taillon have all seen their K/9 drop and their BB/9 rise when comparing their AAA performances to their MLB performances but I'm sure Glasnow -- the guy considered the most raw of the 3 -- would have been the exception.

Considering he has been one of (if not the) most dominant pitchers in recent minor league history, and has much better stuff than those guys, yeah, I expect him to be better than Kuhl and Brault, certainly.

 

[mvk112]

Again, this is where you lose credibility and people question your baseball IQ.

Local beat writers suck? They talk to baseball analyst outside of Pittsburgh all the time.

Many teams keep players in the last year of the contract? Yeah, only in the hopes of re-signing them. You know the track record with ownership. They were not going to re-sign him. Everybody knew it. So NH tried to get something for him. Teams knowing that low balled NH. It didn't work out.

Instead of chastising NH, you might want to direct your ire towards Nutting. When you got money to spend, any GM looks good....

No, you're not stupid, you're stubborn and narrow minded....

They didn't trade Russell Martin, did they?

Again, I will point to the fact that 8 of the other 10 GMs on the job longer than two years have won something... Division, Playoff Series, Pennant, World Series. But poor Neal, nothing for him. Let's blame Nutting because NH makes bad trades and wastes almost a quarter of his payroll on junk.

 

[pittmeister]

They didn't trade Russell Martin, did they?

Again, I will point to the fact that 8 of the other 10 GMs on the job longer than two years have won something... Division, Playoff Series, Pennant, World Series. But poor Neal, nothing for him. Let's blame Nutting because NH makes bad trades and wastes almost a quarter of his payroll on junk.

They tried to sign him remember? But they didn't keep him did they? They weren't gonna let that happen again.

You believe that Bonifay and Littlefield were better GM's than NH? Please tell me you're not going to say yes.

The question still stands: What do you do for a living and are you a CEO because you do everything right??? Answer the question.

Is your name Brian????

Quit spit shining Nuttings shoes, jackass...

 

[pittmeister]

mvk112:

The question still stands: What do you do for a living and are you a CEO because you do everything right??? Answer the question.

Is your name Brian????

What a loser...

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Considering he has been one of (if not the) most dominant pitchers in recent minor league history, and has much better stuff than those guys, yeah, I expect him to be better than Kuhl and Brault, certainly.

That has literally nothing to do with why Kuhl and Brault were mentioned, but cool.

I hope he reaches his upside, too. Doesn't mean I wouldn't expect for his K/9 and BB/9 numbers to get worse relative to his AAA numbers.

 

[mvk112]

They tried to sign him remember? But they didn't keep him did they? They weren't gonna let that happen again.

You believe that Bonifay and Littlefield were better GM's than NH? Please tell me you're not going to say yes.

The question still stands: What do you do for a living and are you a CEO because you do everything right??? Answer the question.

Is your name Brian????

Quit spit shining Nuttings shoes, jackass...

They didn't try to sign Martin. They gave lip service to trying to sign him.

What the hell does it matter what I do? I'm an analyst that writes code and creates various financial reporting, directly reporting to COO and CFO. Does that make you happy? I don't get to win some/lose some like you are apparently happy the GM does.

And no, Bonifay and Littlefield sucked, but Littlefield did leave Neal a ton of talent, some of which he squandered away for nothing (Nady, Bay, Bautista, McLouth), some of which are still the best players to have played under the NH regime 8 years later (Cutch, Walker, Marte).

 

[mvk112]

That has literally nothing to do with why Kuhl and Brault were mentioned, but cool.

I hope he reaches his upside, too. Doesn't mean I wouldn't expect for his K/9 and BB/9 numbers to get worse relative to his AAA numbers.

I really don't think that's a given, at least in terms of BB/9. Those guys I listed profiled very similar to him both scouting wise and statistically.

 

[pittmeister]

They didn't try to sign Martin. They gave lip service to trying to sign him.

What the hell does it matter what I do? I'm an analyst that writes code and creates various financial reporting, directly reporting to COO and CFO. Does that make you happy? I don't get to win some/lose some like you are apparently happy the GM does.

And no, Bonifay and Littlefield sucked, but Littlefield did leave Neal a ton of talent, some of which he squandered away for nothing (Nady, Bay, Bautista, McLouth), some of which are still the best players to have played under the NH regime 8 years later (Cutch, Walker, Marte).

They did to try and sign Martin.

http://triblive.com/mobile/7183114-96/martin-pirates-age

Are you perfect at your job?

 

[mvk112]

They did to try and sign Martin.

http://triblive.com/mobile/7183114-96/martin-pirates-age

Are you perfect at your job?

If I had as many f-ups at my job as Neal did, I wouldn't have a job. Especially big ones (Bay trade, Bautista trade, Walker trade, etc).

They low balled Martin, that wasn't trying to sign him. That was paying lip service to signing him. In the end, they weren't even close.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I really don't think that's a given, at least in terms of BB/9. Those guys I listed profiled very similar to him both scouting wise and statistically.

Almost all of those guys were significantly better with their walks in their later minors years, though. Like, Kershaw was at 2.79 right before his call-up.

AJ Burnett was the worst of the bunch and managed a 3.4 BB/9 in 120 innings in 1998.

The best Glasnow has ever done in a prolonged stretch is 4.13 BB/9 in 114 innings in High-A.

Never even a hint of competency. Doesn't mean he can't get there eventually, just that there's no reason to expect him to do it at this point. You're grasping at outliers and assuming that they're proper evidence for an even BIGGER outlier.

But, you're officially calling Xavier Nady and Jose Bautista "not leaving the cabinet empty" and crediting Littlefied for Walker after he'd almost washed out of baseball and Marte when he was developed entirely under the new regime, so now I'm definitely out.

Attempting to talk sense is literally useless. Like, you literally pulled a Del and went straight to just assuming you knew the actual motives when you were presented with evidence that clearly refuted your position. It's pointless to even engage at that point.

 

[mvk112]

Almost all of those guys were significantly better with their walks in their later minors years, though. Like, Kershaw was at 2.79 right before his call-up.

AJ Burnett was the worst of the bunch and managed a 3.4 BB/9 in 120 innings in 1998.

The best Glasnow has ever done in a prolonged stretch is 4.13 BB/9 in 114 innings in High-A.

Never even a hint of competency. Doesn't mean he can't get there eventually, just that there's no reason to expect him to do it at this point. You're grasping at outliers and assuming that they're proper evidence for an even BIGGER outlier.

But, you're officially calling Xavier Nady and Jose Bautista "not leaving the cabinet empty" and crediting Littlefied for Walker after he'd almost washed out of baseball and Marte when he was developed entirely under the new regime, so now I'm definitely out.

Attempting to talk sense is literally useless.

Walker almost washed out of baseball? What? The guy advanced through system, made the majors at 23, then was held back the last year because NEAL! thought it was a good idea to trade for Aki Iwamura. Can't make this crap up.

Jose Bautista, future HR champion, dealt for a catcher who was a backup catcher at AAA. Nice talent recognition.

Xavier Nady was one of the top RF in baseball when he was dealt, and he was packaged with a very good lefty reliever. They got pretty much nothing back, a few mediocre MLB ready pitchers and a falling prospect with age related issues.

You will excuse NH for anything and give him credit for stuff he had no hand in.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Walker almost washed out of baseball? What? The guy advanced through system, made the majors at 23, then was held back the last year because NEAL! thought it was a good idea to trade for Aki Iwamura. Can't make this crap up.

Jose Bautista, future HR champion, dealt for a catcher who was a backup catcher at AAA. Nice talent recognition.

Xavier Nady was one of the top RF in baseball when he was dealt, and he was packaged with a very good lefty reliever. They got pretty much nothing back, a few mediocre MLB ready pitchers and a falling prospect with age related issues.

You will excuse NH for anything and give him credit for stuff he had no hand in.

As usually, you contradict yourself.

You complain about Bautista being a future homerun champ...well, at the time of the trade he was a utility player. He was Sean Rodriguez. He had no value.

Then you talk about how great Nady was...Nady fell off the earth afterward and what the Pirates got in return in karstens, ohlendorf, and Tabata, far exceeded any future production from Nady and marte.

So which one is it?

 

[Delpanther]

Almost all of those guys were significantly better with their walks in their later minors years, though. Like, Kershaw was at 2.79 right before his call-up.

AJ Burnett was the worst of the bunch and managed a 3.4 BB/9 in 120 innings in 1998.

The best Glasnow has ever done in a prolonged stretch is 4.13 BB/9 in 114 innings in High-A.

Never even a hint of competency. Doesn't mean he can't get there eventually, just that there's no reason to expect him to do it at this point. You're grasping at outliers and assuming that they're proper evidence for an even BIGGER outlier.

But, you're officially calling Xavier Nady and Jose Bautista "not leaving the cabinet empty" and crediting Littlefied for Walker after he'd almost washed out of baseball and Marte when he was developed entirely under the new regime, so now I'm definitely out.

Attempting to talk sense is literally useless. Like, you literally pulled a Del and went straight to just assuming you knew the actual motives when you were presented with evidence that clearly refuted your position. It's pointless to even engage at that point.

Hey, Moneybalz, leave me out of your moronic debates! You live in a fsntasy world!

 

[mvk112]

As usually, you contradict yourself.

You complain about Bautista being a future homerun champ...well, at the time of the trade he was a utility player. He was Sean Rodriguez. He had no value.

Then you talk about how great Nady was...Nady fell off the earth afterward and what the Pirates got in return in karstens, ohlendorf, and Tabata, far exceeded any future production from Nady and marte.

So which one is it?

Nady suffered a pretty brutal injury for the Yankees early on that next season, that is why he fell off. Bautista was 27 years old and had three years of control left, and was far better than Sean Rodriguez at any rate. The point isn't that Katsenns, Ohlendorf, McCutchen, and Tabata were worth more future (that's even debatable), its the opportunity cost of getting an underwhelming return for two pretty good trade chips at the deadline. Same as with Melancon this year. It's an underwhelming return for a very good trade chip. Same with the Bay trade, very underwhelming. What do they all have in common? Insisting on MLB players instead of high upside prospects. There was no use for the 2008/2009 Pirates for Jeff Karstens, Ross Ohlendorf, and Craig Hansen. Just as a team that considers itself a contender shouldn't have traded Mark Melancon. If you're going to sell, sell for talent, not mediocre plug and play guys without upside. Don't trade anybody for middle relievers and 5th starters. They are the easiest things to find either internally or on the open market.

Defending NH trading Jose Bautista is peak front office fan. It was a collosal talent evaluation failure in terms of not only getting rid of him, but getting rid of him due because of Andy LaRoche.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But you knew that Bautista was going to become a great player, right? I mean the Orioles had him and cut him. The Rays had him and sold him off for a few dollars. The Royals had him and traded him for Justin Huber. The Mets traded him to the Pirates for the perennially overrated Kris Benson. When the Pirates traded him he was 27 years old and had a 0.0 WAR that season at the time of the trade (he went on to "add" another -0.1 WAR with the Jays). The season before he was at -0.6 in 614 plate appearances. The season before that it was -1.1 in 469 plate appearances. That's three seasons in a row with a negative WAR. Bautista wasn't a guy who was being held back by lack of opportunity or some other nefarious reason. His problem was that he sucked. Bad.

He wasn't ever a good baseball player until a year and a half after the Pirates traded him. That's when he went from .235/.349/.408 to .260/.378/.617 overnight. There's a reason why he's always been a suspected PED user, because almost no one who has his career profile before the age of 29 has anything like his career profile from 29 on.

But yeah, you knew when the Pirates traded him that a year and a half later he was going to become a star. The odd thing is that for as little as the Pirates got for him, why didn't every single other team in the league try to get him? Hell, he was literally cut by the Orioles. Why didn't every team in the majors jump on a guy who was obviously going to turn into a star? It seems odd that so many teams passed on a chance to pick up such a great player.

I think the real problem is that all major league baseball teams, not just the Pirates, all of them, haven't yet figured out how to use hindsight to make decisions in the present like you apparently have. Slackers.

 

[mvk112]

I love how Pirates fans toss out PED accusations anytime a player realizes his potential.

The guy was a Rule V pick that went straight from A Ball to the majors, thats why he couldn't stick. I can't tell if you are serious about this or willfully ignorant, but if you follow the Pirates (and baseball in general) even marginally, you would know this. This whole fiasco hampered his development and was what caused the slow start to his career. The talent was always there, that is why teams wanted to give him a shot. That would've been like pulling Austin Meadows up last year, he wouldn't stick and it would've hurt his development.

At any rate, Bautista was an everyday player that should've kept the 3B position. It was an egregious failure in terms of talent evaluation to get rid of him for nothing to play a truly awful player at 3B ahead of him.

You don't trade a guy who walks 10% of the time, strikes out less than 20% of the time, and flashed power (15+ HR, .160+ ISO 3 straight years) for a backup catcher. Even if he never did breakout, that's a god awful trade. The fact that NH couldn't evaluate the talent he had makes it worse (compounded by choose LaRoche ahead of him).

 

[mvk112]

And it didn't take hindsight to know that was an awful trade, it was awful from the beginning, just like the Walker for Niese trade was awful from the beginning, and the Bay trade for quantity over quality was awful from the beginning.

 

[Pittguy1980]

And it didn't take hindsight to know that was an awful trade, it was awful from the beginning, just like the Walker for Niese trade was awful from the beginning, and the Bay trade for quantity over quality was awful from the beginning.

It absolutely took hindsight to know it was an awful trade lol. No one really blinked when the trade was originally made.

Also, if you want to play the results like with the Bautista trade, the Nady trade was a huge win for the Pirates, as was the Mclouth trade.

 

[mvk112]

It absolutely took hindsight to know it was an awful trade lol. No one really blinked when the trade was originally made.

Also, if you want to play the results like with the Bautista trade, the Nady trade was a huge win for the Pirates, as was the Mclouth trade.

You could just save everyone a lot of time and just openly declare your love for Neal Huntington and flat out state that he can do no wrong.

I really don't know who you talk baseball with that didn't bat an eye when Jose Bautista was traded for Robinzon Diaz, but that was awful at the time and probably the worst deal of the past 20 years in reality.

And sorry, any trade where you receive Jose Tabata, Jeff Karstens, Ross Ohlendorf, and Daniel McCutchen, where you give up actual living, breathing, productive MLB players is not a win, and most certainly not a huge win.

But if you really want to count a trade that brought Jeff Locke and Charlie Morton to Pittsburgh a win, go right ahead. You could sign replacement level players without reading an all star CF, but whatever, go NEAL.

If you're counting that in the win column though, take a big L in the Jesse Chavez for Aki Iwamura deal. Chavez has been better than Locke throughout his career, and Iwamura was maybe the worst player the Pirates put in an everyday lineup during their closing streak, and on top of that he blocked Neil Walker for a few months.

Neal Huntington has rarely gotten a good return when he has dealt productive MLB players. When he's dealt fringe prospects for buy low opportunities? Sure he's made some good deals. But trading real, everyday, high level talent, he has been bad (Bay, Nady, Bautista, Walker, McLouth) That is the main reason I want no part of him dealing Cole or Cutch.

 

[Pittguy1980]

So, to get this straight, it is ok to base the Bautista trade on his future value? As you said, NH traded a future homerun champ, even though he was basically Sean Rodriguez at the time of the trade.

Then, you turn around and ignore the fact that both Mclouth and Nady did next to nothing after they left. The value the Pirates got in return in those traded FAR exceeded what they gave up future production wise.

You can't have it both ways, though it sure seems like you think you can.