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OT: Quips to 5A

From what I’ve read, the arguments that Aliquippa used were more like message board talking points than actual persuasive arguments towards why the rule was being applied incorrectly.


I said earlier in this thread, when the lost their appeal the last time their argument wasn't that they didn't have more than the maximum number of transfers, it was that the rules shouldn't apply to them. That was a losing argument then, and I said it would obviously be a losing argument if they tried it this time.

So what did they argue this time? That sure, they were over the maximum number of transfers, but the rules shouldn't apply to them.

Shocking that it didn't work this time either.
 
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I said earlier in this thread, when the lost their appeal the last time their argument wasn't that they didn't have more than the maximum number of transfers, it was that the rules shouldn't apply to them. That was a losing argument then, and I said it would obviously be a losing argument if they tried it this time.

So what did they argue this time? That sure, they were over the maximum number of transfers, but the rules shouldn't apply to them.

Shocking that it didn't work this time either.
Yeah that argument won't work in front of the PIAA, but if they take this court, maybe it would.
 
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It might, because as we have seen, some courts think that people knowingly violating the rules because they don't think that they should apply to them is perfectly fine.
Aliquippa isn't "knowingly violating" any rule. They are challenging a classification determination, and making an argument that they know won't persuade the PIAA. However, the argument might persuade a court that is looking at this from the standpoint of one of our laws, such as laws that prohibits disparate impact racial discrimination.
 
Aliquippa isn't "knowingly violating" any rule. They are challenging a classification determination, and making an argument that they know won't persuade the PIAA. However, the argument might persuade a court that is looking at this from the standpoint of one of our laws, such as laws that prohibits disparate impact racial discrimination.
The PIAA needs to make quote a few amendments to the By Laws. Charter schools, home schooling, on line schools, the addition of the Philadelphia Catholic league.....this has made many of the policies antiquated. Many people are making an anti Catholic movement which is wrong and has no place in sports.
 
For a school district that takes football so seriously (the results speak for themselves), you would think that the admins at Aliquippa would have been paying extra attention to filling out that list for the PIAA. Very strange.

What I read is it all the schools give the PIAA lists of who is enrolled or whatever but in looking at last year's list and this year's list, there were 23 names not on last year's list but that was obviously wrong because most had been going to Aliquippa since Kindergarten. It was a clerical error. I saw a post of like 4 Aliquippa kids holding a midget league championship trophy and it said like "these kids have been at Aliquippa" since Kindergarten."
 
Aliquippa isn't "knowingly violating" any rule. They are challenging a classification determination, and making an argument that they know won't persuade the PIAA. However, the argument might persuade a court that is looking at this from the standpoint of one of our laws, such as laws that prohibits disparate impact racial discrimination.
Not saying Aliquippa is guilty but this rule exists because schools were "knowingly" using a loophole in the transfer rule.

I think the disparate racial impact would be the easiest path if they can show one exists. Privacy laws may prohibit them from attempting to show the rule broadly affects schools based on the race of individual players unless they can find other schools to join in some sort of class action. That would be the way to go if that is happening.
 
Seems to me they're punishing a team for being good. Why can't the bigger schools step up if they don't like being dominated?
 
Not saying Aliquippa is guilty but this rule exists because schools were "knowingly" using a loophole in the transfer rule.

I think the disparate racial impact would be the easiest path if they can show one exists. Privacy laws may prohibit them from attempting to show the rule broadly affects schools based on the race of individual players unless they can find other schools to join in some sort of class action. That would be the way to go if that is happening.
Are there any other schools for football? Have any other football programs been bumped up? I do not know the answer to that, although I've heard it affected Farrell a few years back (which could be a district sharing similarities with Aliquippa).
 
Okay so we have Aliquippa (who has been forced to move up multiple times) and Farrell. Who else?


Just this year there were two other football teams that appealed them having to move up, Steelton-Highspire and Wyomissing. They both lost their appeals as well.

There were also a couple other schools that lost appeals in different sports.
 
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How does Aliquippa recruit kids/families to move to Aliquippa? Let's be honest, nobody not from Aliquippa is moving there just to play football. If a kid moves there it's because they have immediate or extended family already living in the area.
THIS! Unless I have family there, and most of Aliquippa are related, if I had a P5 level football player I am moving into NA or PR or a South Fayette, Peters, etc..
 
Just this year there were two other football teams that appealed them having to move up, Steelton-Highspire and Wyomissing. They both lost their appeals as well.

There were also a couple other schools that lost appeals in different sports.

Having to move up because you are a lower income transient district like Aliquippa, Farrell, and Steelton-Highspire is so discriminatory its not even funny. SJP and Imhotep and Central Catholic are fielding legit all-star teams and we are worried about some of the lowest income areas in PA having kids move from apartment to apartment. I have no idea how this hasn't become like a national "liberal media" case. Again, Aliquippa is to blame for allowing those extra 3 kids to join the team but the rule itself discriminates against lower income areas.
 
How does that factor into the discussion?
Good question. Just a few years ago, a kid could live in Plum but claim homelessness and play for Franklin Regional. I'm just giving an example, I have no evidence of some kid living in Plum playing for FR.

Just recently the big center from Montour was legitimately homeless with his family living in Africa and he was eligible to play for Montour without penalty.

The other thing is if you attend a school that doesn't have a specific academic program, you can transfer schools but I'm not really sure what the penalty is. There was a kid who played at PSU named Dakota Royer. He was a McCaskey kid who attended Manheim Central because of their AG program. He never had to sit out or anything. In girls bball, I've heard McGuffey and Trinity have had kids transfer into their district because of the "academic offerings."
 
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Aliquippa isn't "knowingly violating" any rule. They are challenging a classification determination, and making an argument that they know won't persuade the PIAA. However, the argument might persuade a court that is looking at this from the standpoint of one of our laws, such as laws that prohibits disparate impact racial discrimination.
The "player safety" argument is going to fall on deaf ears imo. The have completely cleaned out 4A the past few years. Harrisburg High has played with 30-35 man rosters the past few years in 6A and they haven't requested to play down in 5A or 4A. They are basically 99% minority team.

Aliquippa is now a 2A team by enrollment. They were a 1A team competing up 3 classes. This is par for the course with them being a 2A team playing up 3 classes in 5A.
 
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Steelton's argument is a joke. They cited player safety as their sole reason for appeal. Lombardi told their administration - "you haven't played a 1A team in the regular season for 3-4 years now." Steelton doesn't play any 1A teams because the only other 1A team in D3 is Fairfield. They regularly play 2A and 3A schools.
 
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Madden sides with Aliquippa. I would like to hear NCPitt's take on this. His normal beliefs are there should be no rules to anything and unless laws are broken, the PIAA has no jurisdiction to impose rules on anything.

Honestly, I dont think the PIAA put the "greater than 2 transfers" rule in place for racist reasons. I think it was done primarily to curtail private school recruiting. However, 2 things. Once you are 6A, the rule doesn't apply to you since there's no 7A. Central Catholic and SJP can bring in 30 transfers without penalty. Imhotep is voluntarily playing 6A, I'm sure partly due to the fact they want to get in on this transfer game. This rule probably has prevented the Canevin's and Bishop McDevitt's from stockpiling transfers so in that sense it has worked. But for lower income transient areas, it essentially is saying if you are a poor family who moves rather frequently due to living situations, your kids cant play sports in Pennsylvania. And that's not right.

One other thing/solution. Cant these kids just play on the JV team? Potentially even as seniors? I personally know of a senior who played on the JV team in a different sport.
 
THIS! Unless I have family there, and most of Aliquippa are related, if I had a P5 level football player I am moving into NA or PR or a South Fayette, Peters, etc..
If you are a minority kid with a broken family situation, you probably don't have a relative who can afford to move into PR or Wexford or Peters. Even renting an apartment in those districts is going to cost you.

On the other hand, I don't know how these things get paid for, either. It was certainly said that in Berwick's glory days, they used to provide apartments for their transfers. Some alums either owned the apartments or paid the rent.
 
i feel like everyone who is involved in this battle, the piaa and aliquippa, pretty much everyone on both sides, are all complete freakin idiots.

it's amateur hour to the 10th degree from the start of this..
Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far, away.....I guess there is the Vo Tech school within the Southern Columbia district and they get kids transfer in to that Vo Tech school and play for Southern Columbia without counting as a transfer. Now if everyone knows this, how are they allowing this?

Anyone been to Catawissa? It is remote. It is a suburb of Bloomsburg which is like being a suburb of I dunno.. Irwin. How do they get all of this talent? What, does the coal fires of Centralia give the locals special powers?? And on that note, why are they so cowardly to not at least play up a class. Hell, Aliquippa has always played up even before being forced.

I hate racism being used, it is thrown around way too much. But in this case....you would think, hope, some of the Quips more powerful (and rich) NFL alums would band together and lawyer it up against the PIAA.
 
I also think it is incredibly ironic that P5 recruit FR Larry Moon transferred from Aliquippa to....hmmmmmm......Central Valley? No, that's not right. Canevin? No. Central Catholic, ahh yeah, that's right.
 
What I read is it all the schools give the PIAA lists of who is enrolled or whatever but in looking at last year's list and this year's list, there were 23 names not on last year's list but that was obviously wrong because most had been going to Aliquippa since Kindergarten. It was a clerical error. I saw a post of like 4 Aliquippa kids holding a midget league championship trophy and it said like "these kids have been at Aliquippa" since Kindergarten."
So on that note, how on earth is Tikey Hayes considered a transfer??? I mean this is starting to get abortion like in its assessment. What, a kids parents lived somewhere else when he was in the womb then moved to Aliquippa and he is considered a transfer. I don't get how Hayes is classified as a transfer. Can anyone closer to this come up with an explanation?
 
If you are a minority kid with a broken family situation, you probably don't have a relative who can afford to move into PR or Wexford or Peters. Even renting an apartment in those districts is going to cost you.

On the other hand, I don't know how these things get paid for, either. It was certainly said that in Berwick's glory days, they used to provide apartments for their transfers. Some alums either owned the apartments or paid the rent.
Isn't ironic that Berwick and the Southern Columbia districts are 10 miles apart.
 
So on that note, how on earth is Tikey Hayes considered a transfer??? I mean this is starting to get abortion like in its assessment. What, a kids parents lived somewhere else when he was in the womb then moved to Aliquippa and he is considered a transfer. I don't get how Hayes is classified as a transfer. Can anyone closer to this come up with an explanation?

He isnt considered a transfer. I said 27 times that list of 23 transfers that include him was an error. Its 5.
 
Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far, away.....I guess there is the Vo Tech school within the Southern Columbia district and they get kids transfer in to that Vo Tech school and play for Southern Columbia without counting as a transfer. Now if everyone knows this, how are they allowing this?

Anyone been to Catawissa? It is remote. It is a suburb of Bloomsburg which is like being a suburb of I dunno.. Irwin. How do they get all of this talent? What, does the coal fires of Centralia give the locals special powers?? And on that note, why are they so cowardly to not at least play up a class. Hell, Aliquippa has always played up even before being forced.

I hate racism being used, it is thrown around way too much. But in this case....you would think, hope, some of the Quips more powerful (and rich) NFL alums would band together and lawyer it up against the PIAA.

Southern Columbia may have co-op agreement with that Vo-Tech, not sure. But kids from other schools can play on your team and not count as transfers if there's a co-op agreement.

As for Southern Columbia, its cultural, not too dissimilar from Aliquippa except its all white kids. I watched them vs Westinghouse and they looked like those PSU white roided up linebackers. So its culture, weight training, tradition.
 
Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far, away.....I guess there is the Vo Tech school within the Southern Columbia district and they get kids transfer in to that Vo Tech school and play for Southern Columbia without counting as a transfer. Now if everyone knows this, how are they allowing this?
Okay - let me preface this. My brother in law has coached against SCA for 20+ years. Here are the facts about Columbia/Montour VT:

1. It's located in the Bloomsburg School District - not Southern Columbia.

2. It's a "full-time" Vocational School. Meaning the kids who attend this school, leave their home district and spend the entire day learning both a trade and receiving their basic education credits - Math/Science/English/etc.. Their home district pays to have these kids educated at Columbia Montour Vo Tech. This school model is found at York Tech in York PA, BOK Tech and Dobbins Tech in Philly. Pittsburgh used to have South Vo Tech which used the same model. Most schools in the state use partial programs where the students spend 1/2 the day at their home school and 1/2 the day at the vo-tech.

3. Columbia Montour Vo-Tech has their own PIAA sponsored sports program which includes a 4A football team.

4. Once you enroll in at CM Vo-Tech you are no longer a student at SCA, Mt. Carmel, Berwick, etc. You can no longer participate in football at your home school. You can only play for CM VT.

5. This was the biggest and dumbest myth ever proposed by WPIAL fans because they stopped beating SCA in state title games and the majority of the games are/were complete blowouts.
Anyone been to Catawissa? It is remote. It is a suburb of Bloomsburg which is like being a suburb of I dunno.. Irwin. How do they get all of this talent? What, does the coal fires of Centralia give the locals special powers?? And on that note, why are they so cowardly to not at least play up a class. Hell, Aliquippa has always played up even before being forced.
I've been there dozens of times. It's primarily a farm community. When you describe "talent" what do you mean? Minus the teams from 2017-2019, SCA usually produces less high end talent then the team they face in the state title game. The majority of these players are D2/D3 type kids. SCA is successful because they have true program where families see dads, uncles, brothers, cousins all come through the program. The type of commitment they have is comparable to the teams you see in Texas. It's a true year round program where kids arrive at the HS at 530am and do speed agility work, 3-4x/week and after school they're in the weight room. The wrestlers/bball/track/baseball kids have lifting built into the school day.

They've been an under center wing t team that runs a damn 4-4 cover 3 defense for 35 straight years. The junior high and youth programs do the same thing.

This is why they do what they do.
I also think it is incredibly ironic that P5 recruit FR Larry Moon transferred from Aliquippa to....hmmmmmm......Central Valley? No, that's not right. Canevin? No. Central Catholic, ahh yeah, that's right.
I'm not sure what the point of this is?
So on that note, how on earth is Tikey Hayes considered a transfer??? I mean this is starting to get abortion like in its assessment. What, a kids parents lived somewhere else when he was in the womb then moved to Aliquippa and he is considered a transfer. I don't get how Hayes is classified as a transfer. Can anyone closer to this come up with an explanation?
Quip reported him as a transfer. I believe it had to be a paperwork error, just like the other 20 ones they (Quip) reported.
Isn't ironic that Berwick and the Southern Columbia districts are 10 miles apart.
not really. Football in the coal region was strong before Berwick ever came to prominence - see Mt. Carmel.

If what WPIAL fans believed was true, no one in the coal region would schedule SCA when it comes to football.
 
Okay - let me preface this. My brother in law has coached against SCA for 20+ years. Here are the facts about Columbia/Montour VT:

1. It's located in the Bloomsburg School District - not Southern Columbia.

2. It's a "full-time" Vocational School. Meaning the kids who attend this school, leave their home district and spend the entire day learning both a trade and receiving their basic education credits - Math/Science/English/etc.. Their home district pays to have these kids educated at Columbia Montour Vo Tech. This school model is found at York Tech in York PA, BOK Tech and Dobbins Tech in Philly. Pittsburgh used to have South Vo Tech which used the same model. Most schools in the state use partial programs where the students spend 1/2 the day at their home school and 1/2 the day at the vo-tech.

3. Columbia Montour Vo-Tech has their own PIAA sponsored sports program which includes a 4A football team.

4. Once you enroll in at CM Vo-Tech you are no longer a student at SCA, Mt. Carmel, Berwick, etc. You can no longer participate in football at your home school. You can only play for CM VT.

5. This was the biggest and dumbest myth ever proposed by WPIAL fans because they stopped beating SCA in state title games and the majority of the games are/were complete blowouts.

I've been there dozens of times. It's primarily a farm community. When you describe "talent" what do you mean? Minus the teams from 2017-2019, SCA usually produces less high end talent then the team they face in the state title game. The majority of these players are D2/D3 type kids. SCA is successful because they have true program where families see dads, uncles, brothers, cousins all come through the program. The type of commitment they have is comparable to the teams you see in Texas. It's a true year round program where kids arrive at the HS at 530am and do speed agility work, 3-4x/week and after school they're in the weight room. The wrestlers/bball/track/baseball kids have lifting built into the school day.

They've been an under center wing t team that runs a damn 4-4 cover 3 defense for 35 straight years. The junior high and youth programs do the same thing.

This is why they do what they do.

I'm not sure what the point of this is?

Quip reported him as a transfer. I believe it had to be a paperwork error, just like the other 20 ones they (Quip) reported.

not really. Football in the coal region was strong before Berwick ever came to prominence - see Mt. Carmel.

If what WPIAL fans believed was true, no one in the coal region would schedule SCA when it comes to football.

What you described is what I figured when I watched them. The players looked roided up and assuming they arent, it takes a high level of commitment and dedication to get bodies like that in HS. They have that Texas HS football culture in a remote area, as you said.
 
Okay - let me preface this. My brother in law has coached against SCA for 20+ years. Here are the facts about Columbia/Montour VT:

1. It's located in the Bloomsburg School District - not Southern Columbia.

2. It's a "full-time" Vocational School. Meaning the kids who attend this school, leave their home district and spend the entire day learning both a trade and receiving their basic education credits - Math/Science/English/etc.. Their home district pays to have these kids educated at Columbia Montour Vo Tech. This school model is found at York Tech in York PA, BOK Tech and Dobbins Tech in Philly. Pittsburgh used to have South Vo Tech which used the same model. Most schools in the state use partial programs where the students spend 1/2 the day at their home school and 1/2 the day at the vo-tech.

3. Columbia Montour Vo-Tech has their own PIAA sponsored sports program which includes a 4A football team.

4. Once you enroll in at CM Vo-Tech you are no longer a student at SCA, Mt. Carmel, Berwick, etc. You can no longer participate in football at your home school. You can only play for CM VT.

5. This was the biggest and dumbest myth ever proposed by WPIAL fans because they stopped beating SCA in state title games and the majority of the games are/were complete blowouts.

I've been there dozens of times. It's primarily a farm community. When you describe "talent" what do you mean? Minus the teams from 2017-2019, SCA usually produces less high end talent then the team they face in the state title game. The majority of these players are D2/D3 type kids. SCA is successful because they have true program where families see dads, uncles, brothers, cousins all come through the program. The type of commitment they have is comparable to the teams you see in Texas. It's a true year round program where kids arrive at the HS at 530am and do speed agility work, 3-4x/week and after school they're in the weight room. The wrestlers/bball/track/baseball kids have lifting built into the school day.

They've been an under center wing t team that runs a damn 4-4 cover 3 defense for 35 straight years. The junior high and youth programs do the same thing.

This is why they do what they do.

I'm not sure what the point of this is?

Quip reported him as a transfer. I believe it had to be a paperwork error, just like the other 20 ones they (Quip) reported.

not really. Football in the coal region was strong before Berwick ever came to prominence - see Mt. Carmel.

If what WPIAL fans believed was true, no one in the coal region would schedule SCA when it comes to football.
They are pussies okay? Play up. Challenge yourselves. And I still don't believe it is all "coaching".
 
What you described is what I figured when I watched them. The players looked roided up and assuming they arent, it takes a high level of commitment and dedication to get bodies like that in HS. They have that Texas HS football culture in a remote area, as you said.
Sports in isolated environments have a way producing a great product when you combine that blue collar mentality that sprung from coal/farming region.
 
Sports in isolated environments have a way producing a great product when you combine that blue collar mentality that sprung from coal/farming region.

They are the White Aliquippa of Eastern PA. There are towns like that across the US. I am sure that in Southern Columbia, EVERYONE plays football from the time they can walk. Its part of the culture, same as Aliquippa.
 
We are from SWPA and know some of the SC people through wrestling. A couple of the families pretty much said that SC mentality is to either start the kids a year late or hold them back before 6th grade. This definitely helps with physical and mental maturity.
 
We are from SWPA and know some of the SC people through wrestling. A couple of the families pretty much said that SC mentality is to either start the kids a year late or hold them back before 6th grade. This definitely helps with physical and mental maturity.
lol, the good old 7th grade redshirt plan. They make a rule against it, hold the kid back in 6th grade. All to get an unfair advantage for your kid in youth sports.

God bless priorities.
 
He isnt considered a transfer. I said 27 times that list of 23 transfers that include him was an error. Its 5.
So I tried to do some digging and I think I found some clarity of how the PIAA does it ... for the initial PIAA assessment, they simply compare the roster from one year with the roster from the prior year, and if you're name wasn't on it the prior year, you are a potential "transfer." So I guess the district then has the burden to show that all of those folks aren't transfers. That is asinine way of doing it but I can't say I am surprised.
 
Just this year there were two other football teams that appealed them having to move up, Steelton-Highspire and Wyomissing. They both lost their appeals as well.

There were also a couple other schools that lost appeals in different sports.
Are Steelton-Highspire and Wyomissing economically depressed areas like Aliquippa and Farrell?
 
From Sharon Hearld

WITH the PIAA’s denial of Farrell Area School District’s petition to join the WPIAL, it appears the Steelers teams will continue to compete in District 10 this year.

That forces District 10 to heal its differences with Farrell. And most, if not all, of the movement has to come from District 10’s side.

“If we are to remain in District 10, we must demand that District 10 better govern these pervasive issues,” Farrell Superintendent Rev. Dr Lora Adams-King said Thursday in a statement from the district.


Adams-King’s position is that District 10 officials failed to respond adequately to legitimate complaints after racially charged incidents involving students from Jamestown, Lakeview and Slippery Rock school districts, and other incidents that demeaned Farrell students.

She’s right. Had Farrell been successful in departing for the WPIAL (PIAA District 7), those issues would have gone away with the Steelers. Now that Farrell is staying in District 10, it has to confront them.

On Sept. 28, Jamestown students wore hair bonnets commonly used by Black women during a “Pajama Night” promotion at a girls volleyball match against the Steelers as part of a hair care regimen in an apparent attempt to mock Farrell students.

About the same time, a Lakeview student posted a meme — derived from a pornographic image with audio that included a racial slur in a reference to Farrell — on social media.

Lakeview administration took some decisive action by condemning the social media post.

But the only public response from Jamestown was an equivocation-filled statement by Superintendent Tracy Reiser that fixated on the students’ supposedly innocent intent, rather than their destructive effect.

District 10 holds meetings only once a month, which makes swift action difficult. But even in that context, the response to Farrell’s concerns has been glacial.


Peter Iacino, chairman of District 10, said the organization deals with allegations like those made by Farrell officials by contacting the schools involved. Those schools investigate the accusations and file a report outlining findings and action plans.

Officials from Lakeview and Slippery Rock took action against junior high school students, and District 10 deemed the schools’ response as “acceptable,” Iacino said. He did not comment on specific disciplinary actions taken against the students.

The District 10 board ruled Jamestown’s first and second reports to be “inadequate,” and ordered the school to present a third submission, which the board will review at an upcoming meeting.

District 10’s next board meeting is scheduled for 10 a.m. Wednesday at the Ambassador Garden Atrium in Erie.

Now that the Steelers are locked into District 10 for the 2024-25 season and beyond, that has to change.

Immediately following the Jamestown and Lakeview incidents, Shenango Valley Urban League President and CEO Dr. Erin Houston offered her organization’s services for diversity education for District 10 and its member schools.

District 10 should take her up on that offer, or employ another organization, for the purpose of teaching officials at the district’s schools exactly why, just to cite one example, it was wrong for the Jamestown students to wear those bonnets.

The PIAA’s sportsmanship statement — which is read over public address systems before high school athletic contests — reads, in part, “Actions meant to demean opposing contestants, teams, spectators and officials are not in the highest ideals of interscholastic education and will not be tolerated.”

If those aren’t just words, District 10 must take action.
 
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