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Cost of living in many countries is less, there are other cultural factors you likely don't know about that make it easier to live on less-you just have visited there, I'm intimately involved with people in 3 European countries and know it from their point of view, you just see it from the USA viewpoint... as for getting out of the country, I've been to,,,

England, Spain, Russia, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Republic of Georgia, Mexico, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, Canada, Netherlands... to name a few? Maybe there where a few more?


Europeans working for US based multi national companies can't wait to get a shot at a job for the US entity.
More money, 401k's, more opportunity, higher ceilings, etc.

Some of the cultural factors you mention in Euro countries are that families all live together parents, grandparents, kids, kid in their 40's because unemployment is high, pay is low, and good jobs are far and few between.

Those who have homes have very small homes. Most can't afford cars and don't have them. Pay is low, taxes are high to support the expensive cradle to grave social programs, opportunity for career advancement is limited.

Just look at the Euro's who play the US PGA tour and have relocated to the US.
Opportunity in the US is much higher than in Europe or Canada!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Ram!
 
Those who have homes have very small homes. Most can't afford cars and don't have them. Pay is low, taxes are high to support the expensive cradle to grave social programs, opportunity for career advancement is limited.


"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Ram!

Depends, In the cities, I agree, homes tend to be smaller, but lifestyle is better, you probably don't understand, you look at it from a US point of view. Outside the big cities, you're wrong, and I honestly don't know many people who don't have cars, I think Athens, Greece for example has too many cars! Honestly, career advancement matters less when you're living a good life, I know for example, I probably have lost career advancement opportunities big time, I actually think I'm close to black balled on that, because the last 16 years I've put attending every damn trivial thing my daughter did ahead of being dedicated to work.

And in places like Athens, community is great, I'd hate to live in a big apartment building in a US city, but in Athens Greece, I'd be ok with it, you come down to the ground floor and you step outside and you have a social life without any effort, you don't get a DUI because you can drink right there, and everybody knows your name. It's just a different world.
 
Of course, in civilized countries you don't need to tip because they pay people enough to live on.

You don't get out of the house or country much do you!
FYI they don't get paid well in Europe either.

Salaries and Wages
The United States of America/Europe
Why do salaries in Europe tend to be lower than those in the United States for similar professional occupations, even as the cost of living in Europe is often higher?
The average pay per comparable job in Europe is significantly less than in the US.


When we transfer someone to Europe they make about 30%-40% more than their counterpart in Europe. Employees from the US working in Europe or Canada aren't made employees of the local entity because of the comp difference. When someone from Europe or Canada comes to a comparable job in the US they get a large raise for working the same job.

We have many Canadians & Euros working for our US operations who come to the US to make and save money and benefit from a matching 401k which they don't have in those places.

Go to Europe once and look around. The average home isn't a 3 or 4 bedroom house on a half or acre of land. Most people live in row houses, crowded conditions, high unemployment, restricted work weeks ( hours), so they can spread the work around and more people work for less. They do have cradle to grave social programs.

In summary in Canada and Europe comp is low, not alot of incentive to work more hours or make more due to the high tax rates.

When I go to a country where tips aren't customary the service for food/beverages is horrible because there's no incentive to work hard!

Servers in the US love their tips.

How to make $100,000 as a waiter in NYC - Business Insider
Alot of the 100+k is cash tips with minimal tax conequences.

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Rams!

They are healthier and live longer too. Hmmm, I really wonder why.
 
Europeans working for US based multi national companies can't wait to get a shot at a job for the US entity.
More money, 401k's, more opportunity, higher ceilings, etc.

Some of the cultural factors you mention in Euro countries are that families all live together parents, grandparents, kids, kid in their 40's because unemployment is high, pay is low, and good jobs are far and few between.

Those who have homes have very small homes. Most can't afford cars and don't have them. Pay is low, taxes are high to support the expensive cradle to grave social programs, opportunity for career advancement is limited.

Just look at the Euro's who play the US PGA tour and have relocated to the US.
Opportunity in the US is much higher than in Europe or Canada!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Ram!
Which has nothing to do with tipping
 
Which has nothing to do with tipping
Tipping is just an artificial creation meant to benefit the owners, it's an excuse to pay less. I actually like the places that add 15% to the bill and have no tipping policies. A diner we go to does that. It's just better for everyone. Why not just give the servers a 15% raise or livable wage and get it over with.
 
They are healthier and live longer too. Hmmm, I really wonder why.
Quality of life, less stress, less obsession with career orientation, better diet-more natural, better social lives, more human connection. It's all stuff you can't buy with money.
 
They are healthier and live longer too. Hmmm, I really wonder why.
Quality of life, less stress, less obsession with career orientation, better social lives, more human connection. It's all stuff you can't buy with money.

How about free healthcare for everybody? OK, they pay for it with higher taxes but still they love it and their citizens live longer.
 
How about free healthcare for everybody? OK, they pay for it with higher taxes but still they love it and their citizens live longer.
Most get free college too. I'd argue a place like Greece is more academically competitive, you have to rank in a certain percentile to get the free public college spot and take tests to get in, private pay college is also available, but it's doesn't cost like a home mortgage where you're in debt for a lifetime.
 
How about free healthcare for everybody? OK, they pay for it with higher taxes but still they love it and their citizens live longer.
Most get free college too. I'd argue a place like Greece is more academically competitive, you have to rank in a certain percentile to get the free public college spot and take tests to get in, private pay college is also available, but it's doesn't cost like a home mortgage where you're in debt for a lifetime.

And you can go to whatever elementary/middle school/high school you want. Schools aren't segregated by race and income levels like in the USA.

Americans have some of the lowest federal taxes in the world but people are too stupid to realize that is because we have to pay locally for schools and thousands per year on basic health insurance and copays.
 
I think tipping started organically, like people started giving the servers money out of kindness or guys hitting on waitresses etc. and then the owners said, "why should I pay them so much when they get that extra and don't give it to me?" and then it was institutionalized and gave them an excuse to pay less.
 
LeBron was 1st team All-state at football.

If you are a world-class athlete, you would be very good in any sport if you concentrated soley on that at a young age. Messi's size hurts him but he would have been an all-star 2nd Basemen or maybe a Ryan Switzer-type PR/WR. Ronaldo would have been great at any sport, just a freak athlete.
Then why can’t pitchers hit?
 
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Europeans working for US based multi national companies can't wait to get a shot at a job for the US entity.
More money, 401k's, more opportunity, higher ceilings, etc.

Some of the cultural factors you mention in Euro countries are that families all live together parents, grandparents, kids, kid in their 40's because unemployment is high, pay is low, and good jobs are far and few between.

Those who have homes have very small homes. Most can't afford cars and don't have them. Pay is low, taxes are high to support the expensive cradle to grave social programs, opportunity for career advancement is limited.

Just look at the Euro's who play the US PGA tour and have relocated to the US.
Opportunity in the US is much higher than in Europe or Canada!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Ram!
I don't want to get into a political argument here but you make a lot of general statements that simply don't agree with what I observed in my professional interactions in Northern Europe, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries.

We had European offices and several joint or cooperative ventures with European companies. I was technical liason in many of these and frequently spent a week or two at a time in several different plants over the past 30 years, usually a couple trips per year.

It is true that wages are lower but social services and the tax structure combine to even out the effects of that. Contrary to your comment on folks wanting to transfer to US employment, we had virtually NO interest from our international staff in moving here.

Clearly, there ARE always a subset of people interested in improving their econimic situation. That's how this country was built. The "brain drain" and the vision of America as the land of opportunity was very good for the USA.

The cradle to grave social net is a major factor in contributing to unemployment numbers. A lot of citizens simply don't choose to work. The culture is different. Mass consumerism is not the norm. Mass transit is also a normalized part of the society. Auto ownership is not an automatic goal. As you say, much of the population is in urban areas, not spread in suburbs and car ownership can be as much burden as benefit. It's a luxury, not a necessity.

It's just a very DIFFERENT culture and society. It's not an unpleasant life. In fact, a significant number of social commentators have begun to view our lifestyle as unattractive and alarming relative to that of Western Europe. For the average citizen, it's pretty comfortable.

Declining birthrates and population in much of Europe had actually caused labor shortages and immigrant workers were brought in. That pendulum has swung too far, with the current flood of refugees mostly from Moslem countries resulting in large numbers of unemployed who share little common experience with the bulk of European population. . Those newcomers bring great potential for upheaval and disruption because their culture and religion may not blend well with the West for a long time, if ever.

As the birthrate in this country also falls, ( latest statistics indicate White births have fallen to approaching 1.8, below the replacement level in the USA,) the lessons Europe is learning about integrating immigrants into society will bear watching.

At least the large majority of our immigrants share the same religion and a similar culture. Really, the Hispanics are not so much different now from the Irish in the 1870's or the Italians and other Southern Europeans in 1900-1920's. We just need to stir the Melting Pot a while.

One other point: In Europe, the need for an individual 401k is minimalized by the social "safety net." Recruit's post below is pretty much what I saw. There are those who strive to become wealthy and powerful, but when the tax structure aims more at equalizing take home pay instead of rewarding excessive greed, an awful lot of folks have little incentive to strive to maximum income.

They have long vacations and short work weeks and many take much of the Summer off.

There are a lot of worse lives to live than having an average middle class life in a Western European Social Democracy.
 
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I don't want to get into a political argument here but you make a lot of general statements that simply don't agree with what I observed in my professional interactions in Northern Europe, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries.

We had European offices and several joint or cooperative ventures with European companies. I was technical liason in many of these and frequently spent a week or two at a time in several different plants over the past 30 years, usually a couple trips per year.

It is true that wages are lower but social services and the tax structure combine to even out the effects of that. Contrary to your comment on folks wanting to transfer to US employment, we had virtually NO interest from our international staff in moving here.

Clearly, there ARE always a subset of people interested in improving their econimic situation. That's how this country was built. The "brain drain" and the vision of America as the land of opportunity was very good for the USA.

The cradle to grave social net is a major factor in contributing to unemployment numbers. A lot of citizens simply don't choose to work. The culture is different. Mass consumerism is not the norm. Mass transit is also a normalized part of the society. Auto ownership is not an automatic goal. As you say, much of the population is in urban areas, not spread in suburbs and car ownership can be as much burden as benefit.

It's just a DIFFERENT culture and society. It's not an unpleasant life. In fact, a significant number of social commentators have begun to view our lifestyle as unattractive and alarming relative to that of Western Europe. For the average citizen, it's relatively comfortable.

Declining birthrates and population in much of Europe had actually caused labor shortages and immigrant workers were brought in. That pendulum has swung too far, with the current flood of refugees mostly from Moslem countries resulting in large numbers of unemployed who share little common experience with the bulk of European population. . Those newcomers bring great potential for upheaval and disruption because their culture and religion may not blend well with the West.

As the birthrate in this country also falls, ( latest statistics indicate White births have fallen to approaching 1.8, below the replacement level in the USA,) the lessons Europe is learning about integrating immigrants into society will bear watching.

At least the large majority of our immigrants share the same religion and a similar culture.
A lot of truth here.
 
As the birthrate in this country also falls, ( latest statistics indicate White births have fallen to approaching 1.8, below the replacement level in the USA,)

Because it's changed to needing 2 incomes, and even then, cost of raising children and educating them is out of control, white Christian American culture doesn't look down on you for not having or wanting kids anymore, many people are for logical, money type reasons not having them, while other cultures still stick to their traditional ideas about having children, like for example Orthodox Jews who don't care how poor they might be, still want to have 10 kids.
 
What most people dont realize is the World Financial crisis started in Iceland. As the country's economy crumbled into Depression-like numbers, they made a national decision to pump up the soccer program by building a ton if indoor facilities and investing big money in youth coaching. They have the highest number of FIFA-licensed coaches per capita. Iceland has essentially become a footballing factory.

So did the novel Red Storm Rising.
 
Europeans working for US based multi national companies can't wait to get a shot at a job for the US entity.
More money, 401k's, more opportunity, higher ceilings, etc.

Some of the cultural factors you mention in Euro countries are that families all live together parents, grandparents, kids, kid in their 40's because unemployment is high, pay is low, and good jobs are far and few between.

Those who have homes have very small homes. Most can't afford cars and don't have them. Pay is low, taxes are high to support the expensive cradle to grave social programs, opportunity for career advancement is limited.

Just look at the Euro's who play the US PGA tour and have relocated to the US.
Opportunity in the US is much higher than in Europe or Canada!

"it's five o'clock somewhere"
Signed: Mr Buffett
Go PITT & CSU Ram!

The last two companies I worked for were multinational companies. The current one is actually headquartered in the UK. I have and had many Euro coworkers and friends. They live a pretty good life, and none have this overwhelming desire to live or be transferred to the US. In fact some that have, can't wait to be able to get to be transferred back to Europe. I am not hating on America, but I am saying there are alot of really nice places to live outside of the US. You can learn this, this is where Anthony Bourdain was so good, but if you just watch Fox and The Country Music Network, you may never realize this.

Oh one other thing, they do have smaller homes. But we (I am guilty of this also) become beholden and slaves to these big homes. Does that really add to a quality of life. We stupidly in the US make fun of the Euros for taking vacation and leisure time, where we work to heart attack status. Who are really the fools?
 
The last two companies I worked for were multinational companies. The current one is actually headquartered in the UK. I have and had many Euro coworkers and friends. They live a pretty good life, and none have this overwhelming desire to live or be transferred to the US.


My company has it's main headquarters in Germany, and while people come over here from there all the time I've never heard one of those guys express any desire to move to the US and live here. They like coming over here to work for a week or two and then go back home.
 
My company has it's main headquarters in Germany, and while people come over here from there all the time I've never heard one of those guys express any desire to move to the US and live here. They like coming over here to work for a week or two and then go back home.
I can understand the comment about PGA pros and other high income people wanting to emigrate here. The tax structure here certainly rewards high earners, rather than penalizes them to equalize income. Why wouldn't THEY want to move here?

But, personally, I'm not worrying about golfers, actors or athletes. I'm more concerned about closing doors to the brilliant scientists, doctors, coders, etc who drive technological advancement.

With achievement in our schools trailing many other countries', maintaining our technological edge may depend on encouraging the "brain drain" of skilled, highly intellegent immigrants into the USA, rather than slamming the door.
 
I can understand the comment about PGA pros and other high income people wanting to emigrate here. The tax structure here certainly rewards high earners, rather than penalizes them to equalize income. Why wouldn't THEY want to move here?

But, personally, I'm not worrying about golfers, actors or athletes. I'm more concerned about closing doors to the brilliant scientists, doctors, coders, etc who drive technological advancement.

With achievement in our schools trailing many other countries', maintaining our technological edge may depend on encouraging the "brain drain" of skilled, highly intellegent immigrants into the USA, rather than slamming the door.

It's too hard of a road for us entitled Americans to go this route now. You are right, we have to import not just the intellect, but also the work ethic.
 
With achievement in our schools trailing many other countries', maintaining our technological edge may depend on encouraging the "brain drain" of skilled, highly intellegent immigrants into the USA, rather than slamming the door.

So lets have free or affordable college so we can get educated here without oppressive debt.
 
It's too hard of a road for us entitled Americans to go this route now. You are right, we have to import not just the intellect, but also the work ethic.
So if they grew up in these cradle to grave socialist countries why do they have better work ethic? We have LESS welfare than they do,they live in entitled circumstances more than us.
 
So lets have free or affordable college so we can get educated here without oppressive debt.

What, and have "free college" so we can have more kids taking bogus Sociology majors or other Humanities based majors that absolutely prepares you for nothing. Kids would be better off learning to be Electricians, Plumbers or Welders. At least they are tangible skills.
 
What, and have "free college" so we can have more kids taking bogus Sociology majors or other Humanities based majors that absolutely prepares you for nothing. Kids would be better off learning to be Electricians, Plumbers or Welders. At least they are tangible skills.
A couple points:

*Advanced degress in hard sciences are not particularly abundant from the comfortable social democratic countries of Western Europe. Great Britain does still turns out some.

A ton of Physics, Electrical and Computer Engineering and Chemistry PHD's have been coming from India, Taiwan and mainland China. The standard of living , opportunities and wages here are still an improvement. Lots of Russans too.

*I have zero problems with high school kids seeking to go into the skilled trades you describe. Those functions are always in demsnd. But, I've heard too many variations of anti-higher education nonsense spewed from too many under-educated and under-employed folks. I've got a couple brothers-in-law who peddle that line at just about every family get together.

There ARE too many worthless college majors or programs designed to do little but separate money from gullible parents abd students. Our President used to run a whole "college" designed to do exactly that.

But, the statistics are pretty clear. Those who finish a 4 year degree earn hundreds of thousands more in their working careers than those who don't.

Education and knowledge are always good things. The nation would be MUCH better off if EVERYONE could think for themselves and comprehend the difference between unfounded rants and facts. A leader loudly and repeatedly proclaiming white is black doesn't make it so. Increasing anti intellectual thought is dangerous in a society which is increasingly complex.

I personally prefer the harder sciences, but social sciences and humanities are a basic part of an educated society.
 
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What, and have "free college" so we can have more kids taking bogus Sociology majors or other Humanities based majors that absolutely prepares you for nothing. Kids would be better off learning to be Electricians, Plumbers or Welders. At least they are tangible skills.
So have those courses free or affordable too. I don't even care if its totally FREE, just make it so kids aren't $100K in debt at age 20. MAKE ALL EDUCATION AFFORDABLE.
 
Tipping is just an artificial creation meant to benefit the owners, it's an excuse to pay less. I actually like the places that add 15% to the bill and have no tipping policies. A diner we go to does that. It's just better for everyone. Why not just give the servers a 15% raise or livable wage and get it over with.
what do you tip? Personally, I think the servers prefer the tip system...
 
So have those courses free or affordable too. I don't even care if its totally FREE, just make it so kids aren't $100K in debt at age 20. MAKE ALL EDUCATION AFFORDABLE.
Some people should be foregoing college instead of racking up the debt, I think that's the point. Instead of borrowing money and majoring in Hating Men and racking up thousands of dollars in debt, go to trade school and learn a trade, or just skip the middle man and work in Starbucks out of high school (where they will likely end up anyway). Why should tax payers be forced to foot the bill for a 4 year vacation for ne'er do wells? The ROI is terrible. I'd rather pave some roads with the money.

I'd rather have scholarships for trade school and apprenticeships, versus the nonsense some kids are majoring in at so called universities.
 
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I tip pretty well and still dislike tipping. We don't tip in other service industries.
When I was in the UK, you generally don't tip bartenders. If you really liked their service, you can offer to buy them a round for themselves, which they will often take you up on.
 
Some people should be foregoing college instead of racking up the debt, I think that's the point. Instead of borrowing money and majoring in Hating Men and racking up thousands of dollars in debt, go to trade school and learn a trade, or just skip the middle man and work in Starbucks out of high school (where they will likely end up anyway). Why should tax payers be forced to foot the bill for a 4 year vacation for ne'er do wells? The ROI is terrible. I'd rather pave some roads with the money.

I'd rather have scholarships for trade school and apprenticeships, versus the nonsense some kids are majoring in at so called universities.

Yeah. I mean that is pretty blunt but yes. Aside from going into debt and continued indoctrination of one specific political party that occurs, if you are taking some bogus course at some lower tiered school, you are really not doing yourself any favors and likely will end up working retail.
 
Some people should be foregoing college instead of racking up the debt, I think that's the point. Instead of borrowing money and majoring in Hating Men and racking up thousands of dollars in debt, go to trade school and learn a trade, or just skip the middle man and work in Starbucks out of high school (where they will likely end up anyway). Why should tax payers be forced to foot the bill for a 4 year vacation for ne'er do wells? The ROI is terrible. I'd rather pave some roads with the money.

I'd rather have scholarships for trade school and apprenticeships, versus the nonsense some kids are majoring in at so called universities.
I think the Mike Rowe foundation has it about right.
 
Hmm I wonder why people go get college degrees in increasingly large numbers. Maybe it's because even "pointless" degrees increase your lifetime wages because of how corporate America thinks and pays:

wages-and-education-2011-georgetown-615p.jpg


Fwiw, as I pointed out in another thread recently, the total number AND proportion of STEM degrees has continually increased over several decades but we still hear this right wing boogie man about the plague of the womens studies major.
 
Hmm I wonder why people go get college degrees in increasingly large numbers. Maybe it's because even "pointless" degrees increase your lifetime wages because of how corporate America thinks and pays:

wages-and-education-2011-georgetown-615p.jpg


Fwiw, as I pointed out in another thread recently, the total number AND proportion of STEM degrees has continually increased over several decades but we still hear this right wing boogie man about the plague of the womens studies major.
Corporate anywhere thinks this way.
 
I don't want to get into a political argument here but you make a lot of general statements that simply don't agree with what I observed in my professional interactions in Northern Europe, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries.

We had European offices and several joint or cooperative ventures with European companies. I was technical liason in many of these and frequently spent a week or two at a time in several different plants over the past 30 years, usually a couple trips per year.

It is true that wages are lower but social services and the tax structure combine to even out the effects of that. Contrary to your comment on folks wanting to transfer to US employment, we had virtually NO interest from our international staff in moving here.

Clearly, there ARE always a subset of people interested in improving their econimic situation. That's how this country was built. The "brain drain" and the vision of America as the land of opportunity was very good for the USA.

The cradle to grave social net is a major factor in contributing to unemployment numbers. A lot of citizens simply don't choose to work. The culture is different. Mass consumerism is not the norm. Mass transit is also a normalized part of the society. Auto ownership is not an automatic goal. As you say, much of the population is in urban areas, not spread in suburbs and car ownership can be as much burden as benefit. It's a luxury, not a necessity.

It's just a very DIFFERENT culture and society. It's not an unpleasant life. In fact, a significant number of social commentators have begun to view our lifestyle as unattractive and alarming relative to that of Western Europe. For the average citizen, it's pretty comfortable.

Declining birthrates and population in much of Europe had actually caused labor shortages and immigrant workers were brought in. That pendulum has swung too far, with the current flood of refugees mostly from Moslem countries resulting in large numbers of unemployed who share little common experience with the bulk of European population. . Those newcomers bring great potential for upheaval and disruption because their culture and religion may not blend well with the West for a long time, if ever.

As the birthrate in this country also falls, ( latest statistics indicate White births have fallen to approaching 1.8, below the replacement level in the USA,) the lessons Europe is learning about integrating immigrants into society will bear watching.

At least the large majority of our immigrants share the same religion and a similar culture. Really, the Hispanics are not so much different now from the Irish in the 1870's or the Italians and other Southern Europeans in 1900-1920's. We just need to stir the Melting Pot a while.

One other point: In Europe, the need for an individual 401k is minimalized by the social "safety net." Recruit's post below is pretty much what I saw. There are those who strive to become wealthy and powerful, but when the tax structure aims more at equalizing take home pay instead of rewarding excessive greed, an awful lot of folks have little incentive to strive to maximum income.

They have long vacations and short work weeks and many take much of the Summer off.

There are a lot of worse lives to live than having an average middle class life in a Western European Social Democracy.


I just came back from 3.5 weeks in Europe for work and I agree with most all these points. We are actively hiring in the US and the only interest we got were folks from Poland, and they have lower education at the positions we are looking to hire. It is apples to oranges really, so hard to compare. I love the US and living here, but I would certainly live in Europe too for a lot of reasons.
 
I just came back from 3.5 weeks in Europe for work and I agree with most all these points. We are actively hiring in the US and the only interest we got were folks from Poland, and they have lower education at the positions we are looking to hire. It is apples to oranges really, so hard to compare. I love the US and living here, but I would certainly live in Europe too for a lot of reasons.
Where in Europe were you?
 
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